1411 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

Someone who would kill their own family, because of a lust for power is hardly someone I would put my trust him to make the place better. Yeah it sucked for casteless, no question about that, but if their rise was solely dependent upon doing Bhelen's dirty work, that's nothing to look forward. Might as well just stay in the Carta.

This is Dragon Age. Being a good person and being a good leader are considered mutually exclusive states of being. Therefore, you should trust your country to a complete monster.

I guess that's why my Hawke sat back and let everything fall apart 

[Sepewrath]

I never really had a head scratcher for either game, I generally just milked the one that got me the most XP. Or if I was sticking to a role, or seeing an outcome for the lulz, But what DA2 did do better for me, was it made me make me think more about the situation, through greater emphasis on character development. Like take the situation with Fenris, yeah obviously I'm not going to give him to a slaver, but then they through in the thing about him killing his sister. While I'm probably not going to tell someone to kill their sister, even though she betrayed them(even though I did on my first playthrough because I was sick of betrayals lol) it was something worth thinking about after the situation had passed.

Origins not so much, take the Wolves and Elves, why would I kill the Elves, that makes no sense, equally its senseless to kill the wolves. So Zathrian and the Lady dying and ending the curse was the only sensible option and it wasn't worth thinking about after it was done. The same applies to the Circle, Orzammar and Redcliffe, they were only worth thinking about if you force yourself to do something senseless, like kill Connor.

Hey they said Alistair was a good leader at the end of Origins. Even if you hardened him, he was still a good person.

[In Exile]

GavrielKay wrote...
Indeed, it doesn't mean anything except that proclamations of doom and gloom and a quick defeat for the mages has already been written out of the game.

But that doesn't actually mean what Anders did was a good idea. It just means the writers wanted the conflict to go on very long. The issue of bad writing is that it undermines the defence the 'future' has for the 'present'.

I thought the writing for the mage v. Templar conflict was pretty bad.  And I felt even as I was playing the game that crazy mages were being hurled at Hawke willy nilly in an effort to say "see, mages are evil!"  There was no immersion, no suspension of disbelief.  It was all in my face plot railroad.  I remember in DAO actually stopping to think about which dwarf I should make king.  DA2 never had a stop and think moment for me.

DA2 had lots of stop & think moments... but that was I thought DA2 had choices that mattered. When I realized it didn't, that really undercut the game as a whole. 

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

I was actually arguing against all the posters who said that the mages would be quickly defeated.  I was saying, it was already written as not the case, so we just have to make up reasons why.  The mages power, hidden allies and Templar's drug addiction are all possible explanations.

I've only ever stated as so far as the conflict has been written, the conflict would lead to a quick defeat of the mages.

However, I wholly expect Bioware to write some kind of nonsense to keep this thing going so we can be lead down a path that makes no sense in order to make a choice that will not matter in the long run.  They have to make this conflict last long so our awesome  main character can swing in and save the day somehow.

I'm not going to make up in my head why the mages are magically going to win.  I'd rather drill through the head of the writers here their mistakes, so they hopefully learn how to frame a conflict going forward, futile endeavor it may be.  We should not accept this nonsense, and I am not going to affirm it, we deserve better.

Modifié par Harid, 26 juillet 2011 - 01:10 .

[SJK93]

I don't agree with the Chantry either, but I only have a problem with the ideology. Not the people who follow it. Blowing up innocent people doesn't accomplish anything. It's an act of terrorism, and nothing more.

[nubbers666]

yes and no

while i agree with his reasoning for doing it

i can not agree with the outcome

doing what he did  i think caused a whole lot more trouble than good

and at the worst possible timing

if you got the visit from alistair   and asked what the problem was over there you would understand  (maybe(

[CrimsonZephyr]

Harid wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

I was actually arguing against all the posters who said that the mages would be quickly defeated.  I was saying, it was already written as not the case, so we just have to make up reasons why.  The mages power, hidden allies and Templar's drug addiction are all possible explanations.

I've only ever stated as so far as the conflict has been written, the conflict would lead to a quick defeat of the mages.

The fact that mages are still fighting a war against the Chantry - which is, to quote Varric, "in pieces" - indicates that the mages are holding their ground. Perhaps the Chantry screwed up badly somewhere along the way, who knows. The point is, the Templars have broken off, half a dozen regional conflicts are on their way to flaring up, and all fourteen White Andrastian Circles have banded together, while the Chantry is on the verge of collapse. This isn't fanon - this is the framing story of the entire damn game. That's why Cassandra is grasping at straws, desperate for an out. The war is not going as smoothly as the Divine hoped.

[nitefyre410]

Honestly by that point in the game after what Anders did - my mode of the thinking was - A.Kill anyone that gets in my way of. B.Get Bethany and Merrill(who I romanced) to safety. C Stop Meridith from killing every mage, suspected mage in the city. C. Get the Hell out of said City.

I thought about killing but then thought crossed my mind. He planned on not living through whole thing anyway. Well I was not going to give him wanted to become some kind of Hero while the Mages left behind and have to fight a war that some may not have wanted. Oh no see Anders in everyone of my play throughts is going to have alot of work do. You just don't get start a war then hide behind the mantle of trouble hero while every is paying for what you did in blood, tears and suffering. Nope. Oh and if he thought the Templars where bad before this(which the unquestionable were.) Now its going to be worst alot worst... matter of fact its going to get alot worst before it starts to get better. What frustating is that it did not have to get this far if the Templars and Chantry would take a hard look at their positon and see that the system they have to is completely FUBAR( ESP. In Kirkwall). Honestly its a commentry about how dealing with matters in extremes and absolutes does none any good.

[Shadow Fox]

DKJaigen wrote...

In Exile wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
War is a dirty business, but it's the only way when the response to diplomacy or protest is violence.

But war isn't a stupid business unless you're in the business of losing wars, and what Anders did is a kind of epic stupid. Not only does he strike a blow against public opinion for the mages, but he's practically beggining for an Exalted March (if the mage rebellion isn't just about freedom, but about destorying the Chantry). 

That aside, I replayed DA2 recently, and when Anders orbital lazers the Chantry, the explosion sets fire to all of Kirkwall. Not just Hightown, but the flames reach as low as Lowtown. 

How many innocent people and peasants burned to death because of what he did? The fact that the revolution may well be justified has nothing to do with Anders doing the right thing. 

We dont know how the war is progressing their are simply to many factors to take into account. And if you know anything of military stratergy you will realise that a negative popular support is just as usefull as positive support. In fact as a mage you would find being reviled much more usefull then only being half hearted supported by the general populace

That will just make the Templars hunting the mages look like heroes in the eyes of the public.


Do we even know why the Templars rebelled? I chose the Templar side and Cassandra said the Templars respected Hawke*note my Hawke was merciful to mages*  So I assumed they just broke from the Chantry because of how corrupt it was in Kirkwall.

[Rifneno]

Sons of Horus wrote...

I think that’s incorrect dude, As its stated in his letter to Quentin that sounds like he had been practicing blood magic too but had made no headway.
“Your last letter was fascinating! You have proven me wrong, once again, by doing the impossible. I shouldn't have doubted your resolve,”

Well, "dude," maybe not everything is about sewing heads onto Frankensteins? Even if we assume it was a reference to necromancy that still doesn't automatically prove wrongdoing. Quentin might've been telling him that he was stealing corpses from the morgue, or just dead people lying around Lowtown from the bi-minutely murders. Hell, a good necromancer could just follow Hawke around and have a Zombie Apocalypse ready to go anytime without even killing anyone. We also find notes by Quentin about trying different methods of flesh preservation. The letter from Orsino could've been about a breakthrough in that area.

Ryzaki wrote...

It's mages (and their allies which are 99.99% likely to be very few) vs everyone else.

God. I wish I was okay with just making up whatever crap supports my argument. It'd make things soooo much easier.

Huntress wrote...

I love the mages vs templars vs chantry conflict! But yeah.. bioware might, I said MIGHT make a main character as a seeker for DA3.. to show the "good side" of the templars i suppose, but they are missing the bad side! since DAO we only meet 2 or 3 nasty templars, the rest that have been shown has been nuts blood-mages and what ever they said about the templars is lable as not true, a lie.. whatever..
 
Not one have a wieght to messure templars for the pass 700 years, everyone has something to say or point for mages.

The balance is way off and all this... is making me crazy and... bored..

If da3 is about a seeker running around doing chantry stuff.. I won't buy it, am not interested on playing someone who wants to keep tyrannts on power.

OMG. Ditto. Having to be working for the Chantry is one of the very few things that would stop me from even giving DA3 a try.

Fleshdress wrote...

I hate that people always say that they support the chantry blowing up because the chantry is flawed. Everytime you enter that building people are in it, praying, donating, helping others or just visiting. Anders didn't bring the hammer down on just the Grand Clerics head, he decimated whoever may have decided to visit the chantry that day and unfortunatly that is up to the viewer to decide, but you can't say just bad folk were in there to ease your consciense just because you like Anders. The most likely scenario is that he ended as many innocents as people set o crushing mages, on the basis of changeing the world for mages.

War isn't a trial where you can separate the guilty and the innocent and punish accordingly. I don't know why people keep thinking it is. Hollywood probably. Rambo wasn't a documentary, guys.

If someone Hawke loved had been in that building, his mother or sister or companion his fan base would be decimated, the only defense people have for him is that the Chantry deserved it, which works great if the only people in it were chanters or the building was empty. He can not say he destroyed any chance at peace because there was no peace, my Hawke wanted to hit him cause "there was no peace" because he destroyed it.

Then your Hawke is a fool. Submission to tyrants is not peace. And again: Rambo? Not a documentary. You know why every military in the world has giant buildings used just to store all their huge bombs? Because blowing up your enemy's stuff helps a lot in war. And it's a surprise, I know, but when you start throwing five thousand pound bags of TNT on your enemy's capital, civilians DO die. Lots of them.

"Welcome to Earf." - Will Smith

SJK93 wrote...

I don't agree with the Chantry either, but I only have a problem with the ideology. Not the people who follow it. Blowing up innocent people doesn't accomplish anything. It's an act of terrorism, and nothing more.

If I had a nickel for everytime someone leapt on the word "terrorist" like lion on incredibly cliched gazelle because they can't support their argument without the 9/11 buzzword crutch, I'd have enough money to hire a research team to build me a time machine so I could go back and murder the rat bastard who came up with the word.

But I digress. You must not have watched the ending if you think it didn't accomplish anything. SPOILER: It accomplished more than the rest of DA2 combined.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Do we even know why the Templars rebelled? I chose the Templar side and Cassandra said the Templars respected Hawke*note my Hawke was merciful to mages*  So I assumed they just broke from the Chantry because of how corrupt it was in Kirkwall.

I don't know what's more asinine. You saying your Hawke was merciful to the mages (and Timothy McVeigh was merciful to the Oklahoma City federal employees!), or the notion that the murder-happy rapists left the Chantry because it was "too corrupt."

[Shadow Fox]

You do realize that as a Templar you can chose to spare the mages that surrendered right?I call that being merciful just because you think the Chantry has a conspiracy to kill/tranquil all mages doesn't make it true..And when will you get it through your thick skull that not all Templars are evil just as not all mages are good and that being a Templar does not make you Meredith? And I love how you keep bringing up TWO Templars did you forget about Idunna,Grace,Tarahone,Danarius,Hedrianna,Quintin,Gascad and the horde of blood and slaver mages we fight throughout the game or are you conviently ignoring them for the sake of your argument?

[GavrielKay]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

You do realize that as a Templar you can chose to spare the mages that surrendered right?I call that being merciful just because you think the Chantry has a conspiracy to kill/tranquil all mages doesn't make it true..And when will you get it through your thick skull that not all Templars are evil just as not all mages are good and that being a Templar does not make you Meredith? And I love how you keep bringing up TWO Templars did you forget about Idunna,Grace,Tarahone,Danarius,Hedrianna,Quintin,Gascad and the horde of blood and slaver mages we fight throughout the game or are you conviently ignoring them for the sake of your argument?

You can choose to spare 3 mages, whom David Gaider tells us will then be Tranquiled.  The RoA does not spare mages.  That's just not what it's for.

Almost all of those mages were apostates, and the rest were driven mad by circles and not necessarily representative of the hundreds of mages and apprentices still in the circle when Meredith calls down holy vengeance.

[Ryzaki]

David Gaider doesn't say anything about what happens to those mages that are spared. 

He talks about what happens during a normal RoA. Kirkwall's RoA wasn't normal.

Now you can choose to believe for some strange reason Cullen decided that the RoA was unjust and that "many lives can be spared." and that "I will watch them and take responsibility for their actions." yet for some mindboggling reason decides to tranquil all the survivors. It doesn't make much sense to me but you can assume that. 

But Gaider certainly didn't say that was the case. (he didn't say the opposite either. Frankly I don't recall him saying anything about Kirkwall's RoA other than Meredith's invocation being legal). He mentions in a RoA that survivors will be tranquiled yeah but rules are constantly bent and shaped.

Not to mention Cullen could've cancelled the RoA after Meredith went bonkers and avoided the whole "mages must be tranquilized." arguement all together.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juillet 2011 - 06:08 .

[Mightyg]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

You do realize that as a Templar you can chose to spare the mages that surrendered right?I call that being merciful just because you think the Chantry has a conspiracy to kill/tranquil all mages doesn't make it true..And when will you get it through your thick skull that not all Templars are evil just as not all mages are good and that being a Templar does not make you Meredith? And I love how you keep bringing up TWO Templars did you forget about Idunna,Grace,Tarahone,Danarius,Hedrianna,Quintin,Gascad and the horde of blood and slaver mages we fight throughout the game or are you conviently ignoring them for the sake of your argument?

I'm sure you ignored the countless evil non mages you cut through during the course of the game as well. Sideing with the Templars seems silly to me since not only did they persecute mages indiscriminately, they utterly failed to protect people from the bad ones, not to mention cause many of them to go bad in the process. Besides the conspiracy to kill/tranquil all the mages actually panned out in the end effectively. It was a cowardly (and not fully sane) response to the situation. If it were real life and one group of people killed another because they thought they were a "threat" and or "going to take over" we'd call it Genocide.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...
Well, "dude," maybe not everything is about sewing heads onto Frankensteins? Even if we assume it was a reference to necromancy that still doesn't automatically prove wrongdoing. Quentin might've been telling him that he was stealing corpses from the morgue, or just dead people lying around Lowtown from the bi-minutely murders. Hell, a good necromancer could just follow Hawke around and have a Zombie Apocalypse ready to go anytime without even killing anyone. We also find notes by Quentin about trying different methods of flesh preservation. The letter from Orsino could've been about a breakthrough in that area.

There are too many variables for us to know what Orsino and Quentin were conversing about.

• We don't know when Orsino's letter was written and sent. For all we know, it could be an old letter Orsino sent to Quentin when the latter was a sane apostate doing regular, non-necromancy magical research.
• There is nothing in the letter to indicate their previous correspondence had to do with blood magic, or even the Harvester ritual
• It can't be about the Harvester ritual, because in the letter he's astounded and amazed. In the endgame, he says it was too evil and too horrifying to use. That was a scenario where he nothing left to lose, so there would be no reason for him to lie about it.

and more than that. Too many variables to know what they were conversing about. All that's known is that Orsino was keeping in contact with Quentin, and possibly handed him necromancy books, because it's possible Quentin just snuck into the Gallows.

Maybe he even used the way the Mage Underground and the lyrium smugglers used.

Just. Too. Many. Variables.

Rifneno wrote...

"Welcome to Earf." - Will Smith

Ryzaki wrote...

It's mages (and their allies which are 99.99% likely to be very few) vs everyone else.

Umm.....

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

• Family members that didn't shun them away the moment they were revealed to learn magic
  
  
  
• Elven mages have the Dalish, assuming a clan welcomes them. We've only seen two, and both so far have accepted City Elves.
  
  
  
• Nobility that are sympathetic to mages. Which may go in line with number 1. There was an Underground Railroad of sorts in Kirkwall. 
  
  
  
• Ferelden should King Alistair tell the Divine to sod off.
  
  
  
• Tevinter if they care (highly unlikely)
  
  
  
• Rivain and the Chasind. Maybe indirectly at least, as they have free mages in their societies and the Templars may not like that. Should the Templars attack them, they may ally themselves with the mages purely out of belief that mages should be free too and not to have many mages live with them. The Dalish as well if the Templars try the same thing (given the threats Templars made to Marethari's clan, I highly expect this to happen.
  
  
  
• My Warden(s).
  
  
  
• If Dagna's epilogue remains canon, Orzammar. The Chantry and renegade Templars would be fools to assault Orzammar as Dwarves are the only people who can safely mine lyrium, save for the occasional accident (Garin).
  
  
  
• Potentially Hawke.
  
  
  
• If there are some Templars who abandoned the Chantry to help the mages, then them. I assume some Templars would have magic somewhere in their lineage. Maybe even a sister or brother. A son or daughter.
  
  
  
• Arl Eamon definitely, for his son.
  
• The De Launcet family. They are nobility after all, and nobility could do a lot. How much they could do I don't know, but they've supported Emile. It's possible they'll support other mages.
  
  
  
• If the renegade Templars decide to attack Grey Warden Mages, then the Grey Wardens will indirectly assist. Maybe not going to the mages side, but they will defend themselves which will help the mages.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

You do realize that as a Templar you can chose to spare the mages that surrendered right?I call that being merciful just because you think the Chantry has a conspiracy to kill/tranquil all mages doesn't make it true.

Sorry to butt in on this. Having someone with the power to "spare" the mages is precisely the problem - it indicates that mages have no existence other that what others may choose to bestow upon them.

And the Chantry isn't involved in some "conspiracy." No. It is simply that over time it has probably morphed into a tyrannical organization that oppresses both mages and templars. The oppression of templars isn't so obvious because they hold a sort of of "divine right of domination" over mages, which the Chantry intentionally preaches. Just because the Chantry may be perceived as a charitable organization towards others, doesn't mean that it is somehow "good" toward the mages. And why is it that one has to look beyond one's concerns, whatever the rest of the circumstances might be - boggles the mind that.

And when will you get it through your thick skull that not all Templars are evil just as not all mages are good and that being a Templar does not make you Meredith? And I love how you keep bringing up TWO Templars did you forget about Idunna,Grace,Tarahone,Danarius,Hedrianna,Quintin,Gascad and the horde of blood and slaver mages we fight throughout the game or are you conviently ignoring them for the sake of your argument?

All very true. But it isn't so much about mages and templars, but the system that they are under.

And Anders probably thought that blowing up the Chantry was striking a blow at the very heart of that system. One could debate whether the act was morally justified (seeing that it perhaps also blew up possible innocent bystanders) or even rational (seeing that the "cause" itself might be undermined to an extent), but that is all I see as somewhat questionable. I see Anders' act as a symbolic one - one he hoped would ignite a spark of rebellion. And like all such acts, perhaps, it was one of desperation - not of cold calculation.

[Ryzaki]

[quote]Family members that didn't shun them away the moment they were revealed to learn magic[/quote]

Which would be part of the very few. 

[quote]
Elven mages have the Dalish, assuming a clan welcomes them. We've only seen two, and both so far have accepted City Elves. [/quote]

Elven mages wouldn't be involved in a shemlen war and "knife ears" aren't usually allowed in a clan unless they're willing to throw away their old lives to become dalish. (based off what I've seen from DAO). The elf mages might be able to join them but they wouldn't help the mage revolution. Unless becoming dalish helps the human mages somehow. And the dalish roaming the land keeping to themselves is helpful.

[quote]
Nobility that are sympathetic to mages. Which may go in line with number 1. There was an Underground Railroad of sorts in Kirkwall. [/quote]

Yeah let's see how well that works out after Anders little light show. Again part of the very few. Very few =! Zero. 

[quote]
Ferelden should King Alistair tell the Divine to sod off.[/quote]
And he could be replaced by Anora. Not to mention Fereldan wouldn't even stand up for their "hero of Fereldan" you think they'll stand up for some rogue mages? Alistair had...what? Three mages in his ranks? Also Queen Cousland doesn't support the mages she'll tell the divine and the mages to GTFO. (assuming that the warden can stay in play. If not Alistair is liable to open Fereldan's borders. Don't think Anora would do it unless she has something to gain though). Let's not forget the Landsmeet. I do not see the majority of Fereldan's nobles being okay with sheltering mages. They just recovered from a blight. They do not need extra stress. 

[quote]
Tevinter if they care (highly unlikely)[/quote]

Tevinter to me would be an ally. They'd end up making many of the mages slaves and bloodmagic fodder but they'd probably help. 
[quote]
Rivain and the Chasind. Maybe indirectly at least, as they have free mages in their societies and the Templars may not like that. Should the Templars attack them, they may ally themselves with the mages purely out of belief that mages should be free too and not to have many mages live with them. The Dalish as well if the Templars try the same thing (given the threats Templars made to Marethari's clan, I highly expect this to happen.[/quote]

Likely. 

I don't see the Templars attacking any mages but those previously from circles though. They want to return to the way things were. Attacking unrelated people is counterproductive to that. The templars aren't complete idiots anymore than the mages are. They know how to pick their targets. For every fanatic there's one with sense and intelligence. 

[quote]
My Warden(s).[/quote]

Not mine, mine (and Fereldan since she's queen) would support the templars. Not to mention the Warden is out of play. The Warden isn't liable to work for/against the mages. They're ra only knows where. The warden's support (or lack thereof) isn't really an ally. Would be nice though if the Warden/Hawke didn't support the mages they failed and if they did support the mages succeeded. Not likely to happen though. 

[quote]
If Dagna's epilogue remains canon, Orzammar. The Chantry and renegade Templars would be fools to assault Orzammar as Dwarves are the only people who can safely mine lyrium, save for the occasional accident (Garin).[/quote]

The dwarves are gonna let a bunch of humans and elves live among them? Really?  Not to mention Dagna doesn't always go to the circle. The templars wouldn't attack Orzammar and I doubt Orzammar is going to let the mages inside en masse. They seem to be a very closed group. I don't think an elf/human will get any respect (less an actual job especially with their strict caste system) from a dwarf (that's not surface) unless he/she happens to be a Warden. 

[quote]
Potentially Hawke.[/quote]

Who can also be a force against them. Not to mention he/she fell into the same black hole as the Warden. 

[quote]
If there are some Templars who abandoned the Chantry to help the mages, then them. I assume some Templars would have magic somewhere in their lineage. Maybe even a sister or brother. A son or daughter. [/quote]

And there will be mages who help the templars. Loyalists most likely. A few but there. 

[quote]
Arl Eamon definitely, for his son.[/quote]

Not if Connor's dead. 

[quote]
The De Launcet family. They are nobility after all, and nobility could do a lot. How much they could do I don't know, but they've supported Emile. It's possible they'll support other mages.[/quote]

True they might. 

[quote]If the renegade Templars decide to attack Grey Warden Mages, then the Grey Wardens will indirectly assist. Maybe not going to the mages side, but they will defend themselves which will help the mages.[/quote]

No. The wardens will help themselves and the people will be on their side. It won't help any mage that isn't a grey warden. Grey Wardens (not new recruits but actual GWs) have the "I'm neutral." downpat. 

So basically the mages have for allies

-Chasind folks (if the templars bother them), Fereldan (maybe), Tevinter (more than likely), some noble houses, and some normal folks with relatives that are mages. Maybe the templars. Maybe Nervarra (and more of Orlais rivals) if they can weaken the Chantry enough to make other countries think they have a chance of course these allies could just use them for their own end and then kick them right back into the circle. Though with the storytelling in DA2 I won't be surprised if the Chantry breaks apart for some idiot reason. Maybe it'll be another idol. 

So yes considering there will be normal folks in that group that don't want mages anywhere near them (except maybe the Chasind, Tevinter (defintely) and some wandering nomad groups) yeah I see them as very few compared to everyone else.

I will reinentrate because people don't seem to comprehend that very few =/= none. I feel the templars will also have very few allies. Most people will probably be on the side of "please all of you stfu and stop breaking my stuff/causing needless collateral damage." Only way I see the mages getting many allies is if they can prove that they'll destroy the Chantry and let those who stand to benefit from its destruction they're worth investing in. And since the mages don't even seem to havea leader I'm not banking on that.  

Meanwhile the templars have themselves most likely have allies as well with noble houses and normal folks 

Chantry has Orlais (and maybe most if not all the countries allied with it), The Chantry itself (with its seekers and the like without many (if not all) of it's templars), enough economic power to afford Orzammar's lyrium (for whatever reason.), noble families, normal folks. They also have buckets of resources. 

Neutral peeps are the Dalish, The Wardens, noble familes, normal folks

Hostile neutrals are the Qunari. (assuming they don't think the risk of the mages joining and strengthening Tevinter is too great and decide to weaken them before that happens). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juillet 2011 - 07:07 .

[TEWR]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

You do realize that as a Templar you can chose to spare the mages that surrendered right?I call that being merciful just because you think the Chantry has a conspiracy to kill/tranquil all mages doesn't make it true..And when will you get it through your thick skull that not all Templars are evil just as not all mages are good and that being a Templar does not make you Meredith? And I love how you keep bringing up TWO Templars did you forget about Idunna,Grace,Tarahone,Danarius,Hedrianna,Quintin,Gascad and the horde of blood and slaver mages we fight throughout the game or are you conviently ignoring them for the sake of your argument?

• Karras
• Alrik
• Varnell
• Female lieutenant in Sundermount who tortured a Dalish child
• Female lieutenant who tried to kill Hawke because Hawke defended himself against Karras' attack
• Ser Mettin
• Meredith
• The Templar cronies under Karras, Alrik, the female lieutenants, and whatever other Templars who were a part of The Faithful (anti-Qunari zealots)
• And one from Ferelden. Rylock and her cronies.
• Every Templar who supported Meredith's Annulment for an act an apostate did. Even a monkey could see that Meredith was insane when she called for it. A smart monkey would've thrown his **** at her face.

I'd say that there are a lot of evil Templars.


now let's look at the good Templars

• Thrask (Dead)
• Keran (can be killed if he was made a Templar)
• Gregoir (from Ferelden's Circle)
• Emeric (dead)
• Ser Agatha
• Ser Maarevar Carver (dead)
• Ser Bryant (from Lothering. Possibly dead)
• Alistair (former Templar. As king, he's mage-friendly)

considering most of those Templars I just named are either definitely dead, or possibly dead, Kirkwall is outweighed by more evil Templars than good ones. And no, Cullen is not a good Templar. He's, at best, a moderate among Kirkwall's Templars. Which isn't saying much.

[Rifneno]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

You do realize that as a Templar you can chose to spare the mages that surrendered right?I call that being merciful just because you think the Chantry has a conspiracy to kill/tranquil all mages doesn't make it true..And when will you get it through your thick skull that not all Templars are evil just as not all mages are good and that being a Templar does not make you Meredith? And I love how you keep bringing up TWO Templars did you forget about Idunna,Grace,Tarahone,Danarius,Hedrianna,Quintin,Gascad and the horde of blood and slaver mages we fight throughout the game or are you conviently ignoring them for the sake of your argument?

That's jawdroppingly stupid. You think murdering a ton of people and taking surrender of a few that begged instead of trying to defend themselves is "merciful?" Tell yourself whatever lie you want but don't expect not to called out on it when you claim not committing a war crime is "merciful."

Two templars? Please. Varnell is inciting farmers with pitchforks to commit suicide by launching themselves on the swords of a bunch of volatile totalitarians. Mettin leads a death squad of templars to murder an unarmed woman in lowtown for the grand crime of giving her starving, tortured cousin a meal and a couch to the night. Samson, one of the "good" ones, says Meredith is right about the mages. Even Cullen who people for some reason think isn't a monster, supports the Tranquil Solution. And of course, the hordes of templars that attack at the drop of a hat but aren't named. Even if Karras and Alrik are dead, Alain still complains about the rapings in Act III. And a dark solitary confinement cell (ask any psychologist what effect that has). There's still the whippings for something as horrible as "talking to a civilian."

Yeah, only two people that are a problem in the templars. Riiight. You go right on praising yourself for murdering 197 people instead of 200.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Every Templar who supported Meredith's Annulment for an act an apostate did. Even a monkey could see that Meredith was insane when she called for it

QFT. Every single templar that didn't desert when she called for the annulment deserves death. Every single one. Cullen and, if he's a templar, Carver included.

[TEWR]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

Which would be part of the very few. [/quote]

Debatable. We can't speak for the mindsets of every family in Thedas who has had a mage child.


[quote]
Elven mages wouldn't be involved in a shemlen war and "knife ears" aren't usually allowed in a clan unless they're willing to throw away their old lives to become dalish. (based off what I've seen from DAO). The elf mages might be able to join them but they wouldn't help the mage revolution. Unless becoming dalish helps the human mages somehow. And the dalish roaming the land keeping to themselves is helpful.[/quote]


I meant Elven Circle Mages. This isn't a "shemlen" war. It's not even a war of force. It's an ideological war. This war embodies freedom vs. security, and the Dalish are going to be drawn into it. The Templars will almost assuredly try to kill their Keepers and Firsts, which will cause the Dalish to respond. This isn't about Mages vs. Templars. It's about being able to live the way you want to live.

If the mages win, it benefits the Dalish because then they don't have to worry about the Templars trying to take their mages.

They'll still have to move constantly due to the racism towards elves, but they'll have one thing less to worry about, which will aid their lives.


[quote]Yeah let's see how well that works out after Anders little light show. Again part of the very few. Very few =! Zero. 
[/quote]

If they're smart they'll realize it was the act of an apostate and not all mages everywhere. And considering Meredith's cronies were murdering anyone who even gave a mage relative food, I'd say they probably won't support the Templars either.


[quote]
And he could be replaced by Anora. Not to mention Fereldan wouldn't even stand up for their "hero of Fereldan" you think they'll stand up for some rogue mages? Alistair had...what? Three mages in his ranks? Also Queen Cousland doesn't support the mages she'll tell the divine and the mages to GTFO. (assuming that the warden can stay in play. If not Alistair is liable to open Fereldan's borders. Don't think Anora would do it unless she has something to gain though).
[/quote]

We have no clue how Anora rules. But if she wasn't okay with Alistair freeing mages, she probably would've kept him from doing so. She must be okay with it. I'm inclined to think she'd do the same thing.

And again, consider the fact that mages from Kirkwall are now fleeing for their lives. Ferelden is a safe haven for them. If they can sneak into there, then they'll be safe.

And sure, the counterargument to that would be an Exalted March. But who runs the Chantry? Orlais. Who is trying to invade Ferelden again. Ferelden's damned either way, as both options can lead to invasions. At least with free mages he has a shot at winning an invasion than if he just has whatever forces survived the Blight.


[quote]


Tevinter to me would be an ally. They'd end up making many of the mages slaves and bloodmagic fodder but they'd probably help. [/quote]


Doubtful. I see them as an indirect ally at best, as too many mages and non-mages would threated their power grip over their land.


[quote]
Likely. 

I don't see the Templars attacking any mages but those previously from circles though. They want to return to the way things were. Attacking unrelated people is counterproductive to that. [/quote]

The Templars aren't hunting just Circle mages. They're hunting all mages. They're not going to be kind to non-Circle mages, especially when they're not getting their lyrium supply.

It's foolish to think that they'll just let any other mage walk on by, but if he's a circle mage then they'll shove their sword of mercy through their heart.


[quote]Not mine, mine (and Fereldan since she's queen) would support the templars. Not to mention the Warden is out of play. The Warden isn't liable to work for/against the mages. They're ra only knows where. [/quote]

Well, this is only if the reappear again and can be played again. My Wardens would.



[quote]The dwarves are gonna let a bunch of humans and elves live among them? Really?  Not to mention Dagna doesn't always go to the circle. [/quote]


First off:


If The Warden helps Dagna join the Circle of Magi, she will later author a comprehensive theory of how lyrium vapors relate to the supply of magic. It gains a great deal of attention and inspires mages from other parts of Thedas to establish a new circle in Orzammar itself, one that has ready access to dwarven lyrium... and lies outside the chantry's power completely. The willingness of Orzammar to harbor Apostates sparks outrage that begins whispers that the Divine is contemplating a new Exalted march..


Second, just because Dagna doesn't get told by the Warden she can go to the Circle doesn't mean she won't still try. This was her life dream. You think she'd really stop? I'm willing to bet she probably left Orzammar and traveled to the Circle Tower, and asked Irving if she could study there.

Just because the Warden didn't talk to Irving doesn't mean she won't sum up the courage to just leave herself.



[quote]Who can also be a force against them. Not to mention he/she fell into the same black hole as the Warden[/quote]

Yup. The Eluvian .

I actually think Bioware may make it so that the Warden went through the Eluvian with Morrigan no matter what, as a lot of female Warden players were pissed they couldn't go through.

Of course, then we're going to hear "my choices don't matter anymore!!"


[quote]And there will be mages who help the templars. Loyalists most likely. A few but there. [/quote]


Now the question is this: Will the Templars who have no lyrium be willing to let these mages live, or will their withdrawal cause them to act so irrationally that they murder the mages helping them?


[quote]Not if Connor's dead.[/quote]


IIRC Eamon and Isolde have another kid in the epilogue slide if Connor is killed (which results in Isolde's death). That kid could be a mage as well.


[quote]No. The wardens will help themselves and the people will be on their side. It won't help any mage that isn't a grey warden. Grey Wardens (not new recruits but actual GWs) have the "I'm neutral." downpat.  [/quote]


*sigh*

Hence why I said indirectly. Defending themselves from rogue Templars will still help other mages. Of course they're not going to involve themselves! But that doesn't mean whatever actions they take won't benefit the other mages!

Of course, I'm thinking the Chantry is moving against the Wardens (Dark Epiphany's bandits were hired by someone). So if that's the case they might involve themselves.

[Jugo616]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Your views are somewhat immature. To say that religion should be overthrown through violence, regardless of each person's right to their own beliefs makes little sense. If anything, the Chantry was a neutral party, and Anders was a misguided lunatic. If you think that the people who were at the Chantry to worship, who had no involvement in the Templars, deserved death, then you are delusional.

Inquisition was just an inocent expresion of beliefs. 9/11 was also the inocent expresion of ones beliefs. St. Bartholomew's day massacre was an inocent expresion of beliefs.  Salem witch trials was an inocent expresion of beliefs. Crusades was an inocent expresion of beliefs. The sacrifices in Aztec religion was an inocent expresion of beliefs.

To hell with religion - real or fictional. It's your belief that religion is somehow inocent that is delusional.



Also, those who argue about possible mage allies - you forget dragon cults. And as a matter of fact - circle towers themselves will be "allies" of sorts - they are increadibily well fortified.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

We have no clue how Anora rules. But if she wasn't okay with Alistair freeing mages, she probably would've kept him from doing so. She must be okay with it. I'm inclined to think she'd do the same thing.

One playthrough of DAO I had a mage warden do the sacrifical path and die to the archdemon.  Anora ruled the mages free from the Chantry at his funeral.  Nobody even suggested it to her, she just did it herself.  So yeah, she's okay with it.

[TEWR]

Interesting.

One thing that bugged me about Mage Wardens was how they used the sword kill the other origins used. Why don't they use mage powers to kill the Archdemon?!

Anyway, I have no qualms with the belief in the Maker and worshipping Andraste. It's how tyrannical the Chantry is in spreading it and subjugating mages that I draw issue with.

Overthrowing the Chantry is not the same as overthrowing the religion itself. The Chantry only cares now because they're close to losing their grip on all of Thedas. They never cared about "The Maker returning". They cared about political influence all over Thedas.

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...
So basically the mages have for allies:

-Chasind folks (if the templars bother them), Fereldan (maybe), Tevinter (more than likely), some noble houses, and some normal folks with relatives that are mages. Maybe the templars. Maybe Nervarra (and more of Orlais rivals) if they can weaken the Chantry enough to make other countries think they have a chance of course these allies could just use them for their own end and then kick them right back into the circle. Though with the storytelling in DA2 I won't be surprised if the Chantry breaks apart for some idiot reason. Maybe it'll be another idol. 

Meanwhile the templars have themselves most likely have allies as well with noble houses and normal folks 

Chantry has Orlais (and maybe most if not all the countries allied with it), The Chantry itself (with its seekers and the like without many (if not all) of it's templars), enough economic power to afford Orzammar's lyrium (for whatever reason.), noble families, normal folks. They also have buckets of resources. 

Neutral peeps are the Dalish, The Wardens, noble familes, normal folks

Hostile neutrals are the Qunari. (assuming they don't think the risk of the mages joining and strengthening Tevinter is too great and decide to weaken them before that happens). 

Someone's been listening.  Or to remove arrogance, agrees.  Though I can see why you don't bother around here, sometimes it's like speaking to a wall.

Mages winning is contingent on too many maybes that the Chantry with active tactical training should not be making, where as the Chantry winning is the logical outcome given their huge resource advantage, popular support, religious support (with nothing around to supplant the Chantry other than the Qun, which would probably be worse for mages,) and support of noble houses, and kingdoms alike.  I'm against the notion because it will require a lot of dumb writing to make it plausible, somehow the Chantry would have to actively ****** off and ****** away every advantage they have for some inexplicable reason.

Note that if the mages take Tevinter support, not only will that split their rebellion along those lines (not every mage wants a return of the Imperium,) but it will also stack popular support against mages through ultimately proving the Chantry right. That doesn't even mention the constant Qunari War that the Tevinters will have to split attention away from in order to help mages, which may lead to the Qunari sacking Minrathous.  Which is complete conjecture, I'll admit, but if that occurs it'll make things worse for mages given the crumbling of their support, Tevinter would likely call back any support they send to mages if this comes close to occuring.  Ultimately, as long as the war with the qunari is a stalemate for the Imperium, they will not likely fully support this conflict anyway, and it would be smarter to send non descript agents to help rather than full blown support.

So lets get to the wild and crazy conjecture, since everyone else is doing it.  This conflict is pointless to me because the two outcomes that come from it are diametrically opposed, and as such, given Bioware Storytelling™, I know at worse some middling middle road will occur, making our decision to join either side ultimately pointless. 

If the mages win, Tevinter White occurs (if Jowan was able to surprise and incapacitate the First Enchanter of Fereldan, imagine what a more powerful mage can do without any awesome main characters to save him), People are enslaved, the Chantry is disbanded somehow, despite the people still believing in it, mage oligarchy rules Thedas.  This is based on the fact that it is drilled into our skulls that one cannot be a powerful mage without succumbing to Blood Magic, our awesome controlled characters, of course, excluded.  We have not yet been told of one non tevinter mage that can go toe to toe with a Magister, outside of Hawke, and the Warden and to be fair, that's probably plot armor talking.  And the mages that do not will be forced to get in line by their betters, or become slaves themselves.

If the Templars win, mages are subjugated and enslaved further, the Chantry gains more power, possibly enough to form it's own state, Templars are more closely intergrated with local forces due to enlarged ranks through public support, as well as working with local lords through bribery of Lyrium, even the Apostate will have trouble hiding in Thedas due to being sold out due to low public opinion, pure tyrannical state.

Neither of these scenarios will occur.  They would require Bioware to make future games in two completely different universes.  What will happen; Mages and Templars fight to a stand still, random third force comes out of nowhere, smashes a nation, awesome main character unites Thedas against Third threat, the people rejoice, the Chantry loses power or fragments completely, ignoring the fact they still have public support, Mages are granted total freedom, despite the fact that these people would not likely be that progressive, and people haven't thanked or given support to mages post Blights, but this allows Bioware to allow you to choose a side, which doesn't matter, and leads you down a plot point, which can be built further from in the future, but also won't matter.

Modifié par Harid, 26 juillet 2011 - 07:37 .

[Ryzaki]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Debatable. We can't speak for the mindsets of every family in Thedas who has had a mage child.[/quote]

Considering how most people treat mages in general it's not a hard guess. Finn's parents are the exception not the rule. 


[quote]
I meant Elven Circle Mages. This isn't a "shemlen" war. It's not even a war of force. It's an ideological war. This war embodies freedom vs. security, and the Dalish are going to be drawn into it. The Templars will almost assuredly try to kill their Keepers and Firsts, which will cause the Dalish to respond. This isn't about Mages vs. Templars. It's about being able to live the way you want to live.[/quote]

Where are you getting this "templars are gonna attack all mages." from? What proof is it that they're doing anything other than hunting the escaped circle mages (which is technicaly THEIR JOB). So no I don't see disorganized templars bothering wandering dalish clans that are hard to find in the first place. (only reason Merrill's clan was bothered was because they were camping far to close to a human city. Not to mention said mage was human and originally from Kirkwall in the first place.) and no it's not about being able to live the way you want to live otherwise this war would be trying to end slavery and the racism of the elves. It's about mages breaking free of the chantry. Full stop. 

[quote]If the mages win, it benefits the Dalish because then they don't have to worry about the Templars trying to take their mages. [/quote]

Except they already have a benefical arrangement. (Stay away from human population period). The templars aren't trying to take their mages to begin with. 

[quote]
They'll still have to move constantly due to the racism towards elves, but they'll have one thing less to worry about, which will aid their lives.[/quote]

Again templars are not hunting them down. They only come when they stay too close to a human city for too long. (which normal humans would do as well). It's not very benefical when they can do the exact same thing without having their clan die in someone else's fight and bring even MORE badwill on them if they lose. They have bad enough PR as it is. 


[quote]
If they're smart they'll realize it was the act of an apostate and not all mages everywhere. And considering Meredith's cronies were murdering anyone who even gave a mage relative food, I'd say they probably won't support the Templars either.[/quote]

People act emotionally many times. Maybe not Kirkwall but the places that weren't affected by Meredith? Yeah I se them supporting the templars. 
[quote]
We have no clue how Anora rules. But if she wasn't okay with Alistair freeing mages, she probably would've kept him from doing so. She must be okay with it. I'm inclined to think she'd do the same thing.

And again, consider the fact that mages from Kirkwall are now fleeing for their lives. Ferelden is a safe haven for them. If they can sneak into there, then they'll be safe.

And sure, the counterargument to that would be an Exalted March. But who runs the Chantry? Orlais. Who is trying to invade Ferelden again. Ferelden's damned either way, as both options can lead to invasions. At least with free mages he has a shot at winning an invasion than if he just has whatever forces survived the Blight.[/quote]

Alistair is not a puppet. Anora trying to stop him would've spurned him own. 

Says who? Fereldan isn't a dictatorship (as the Landsmeet clearly showed). If those mages are gonna stay there it's more than likely gonna be put up to vote. And while Alistair may support them I don't see the rest of Fereldan being all gungho. 

They don't even need to be concerned about an exalted march. Just not want templars harassing their people. Fereldan benefits most by having Orlais exert itself while remaining in top form. Inviting a bunch of mages with little combat training and little life skills isn't overy benefical. Especially not when there was already a circle in Fereldan with sane (and awesome) templars that are there to begin with. I sure and hell wouldn't invite crazy ass Kirkwall mages to Fereldan. 


[quote]
Doubtful. I see them as an indirect ally at best, as too many mages and non-mages would threated their power grip over their land.[/quote]
Tevinter is very survival of the fittest. I see them welcoming the newcomers. More labor. 

[quote]
The Templars aren't hunting just Circle mages. They're hunting all mages. They're not going to be kind to non-Circle mages, especially when they're not getting their lyrium supply.[/quote]

Conjecture. You have no proof they're hunting "all mages". None at all. As for lack of lyrium. The templars we see suffering from a deficiency don't become vindictive. They become scatter brained. The guy in DAO is stammering, Samson stammers/gets the shakes but neither of them were at all violent. So where are you getting this "not kind due to definency" from? 

[quote]

It's foolish to think that they'll just let any other mage walk on by, but if he's a circle mage then they'll shove their sword of mercy through their heart.[/quote]

And it's foolish to think they'll leave their lands to attack other civilized groups of people that are not vulnerable to them and make enemies. 
[quote]Well, this is only if the reappear again and can be played again. My Wardens would.
[/quote]
Exactly it's a scale that is a zero net gain.

[quote]First off:
If The Warden helps Dagna join the Circle of Magi, she will later author a comprehensive theory of how lyrium vapors relate to the supply of magic. It gains a great deal of attention and inspires mages from other parts of Thedas to establish a new circle in Orzammar itself, one that has ready access to dwarven lyrium... and lies outside the chantry's power completely. The willingness of Orzammar to harbor Apostates sparks outrage that begins whispers that the Divine is contemplating a new Exalted march..  [/quote]

Once again. The Warden doesn't have to do that.

[quote]
Second, just because Dagna doesn't get told by the Warden she can go to the Circle doesn't mean she won't still try. This was her life dream. You think she'd really stop? I'm willing to bet she probably left Orzammar and traveled to the Circle Tower, and asked Irving if she could study there.[/quote]

Except her letters weren't getting out (due to politicking) and Irving only let her in because the Warden vouched for her. 

[quote]Just because the Warden didn't talk to Irving doesn't mean she won't sum up the courage to just leave herself.[/quote]

Except according to DAO that's exactly what it does mean. Either that or Irving doesn't take her request seriously (probably wrote back with a "dwarves can't do magic sorry.") 



[quote]Yup. The Eluvian .

I actually think Bioware may make it so that the Warden went through the Eluvian with Morrigan no matter what, as a lot of female Warden players were pissed they couldn't go through.

Of course, then we're going to hear "my choices don't matter anymore!!"[/quote]

Eh. I rather my warden stayed gone personally. 


[quote]Now the question is this: Will the Templars who have no lyrium be willing to let these mages live, or will their withdrawal cause them to act so irrationally that they murder the mages helping them?
[/quote]
I really would like to know where you're getting your info about how Templars suffer lyrium withdrawal. It sure in hell isn't in the game. The templars I see are beggers or humming the chant brokenly. 

[quote]IIRC Eamon and Isolde have another kid in the epilogue slide if Connor is killed (which results in Isolde's death). That kid could be a mage as well.
[/quote]True.

[quote]*sigh*
Hence why I said indirectly. Defending themselves from rogue Templars will still help other mages. Of course they're not going to involve themselves! But that doesn't mean whatever actions they take won't benefit the other mages![/quote]

No it's not going to benefit other mages. You seem to have some bizzare impression of the templars as frothing at the mouth idiot beasts. Only a small idiot percentage is like that. (same with mages) The Wardens will put them down and the sensible templars will leave them the hell alone. The Wardens is an organization that garners large amounts of respect. 

[quote]Of course, I'm thinking the Chantry is moving against the Wardens (Dark Epiphany's bandits were hired by someone). So if that's the case they might involve themselves.

[/quote]

Conjecture. There's nothing suggesting those bandits were hired by the Chantry.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juillet 2011 - 07:53 .