1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Harid wrote...
Someone's been listening.  Or to remove arrogance, agrees.  Though I can see why you don't bother around here, sometimes it's like speaking to a wall.

Mages winning is contingent on too many maybes that the Chantry with active tactical training should not be making, where as the Chantry winning is the logical outcome given their huge resource advantage, popular support, religious support (with nothing around to supplant the Chantry other than the Qun, which would probably be worse for mages,) and support of noble houses, and kingdoms alike.  I'm against the notion because it will require a lot of dumb writing to make it plausible, somehow the Chantry would have to actively ****** off and ****** away every advantage they have for some inexplicable reason.

Note that if the mages take Tevinter support, not only will that split their rebellion along those lines (not every mage wants a return of the Imperium,) but it will also stack popular support against mages through ultimately proving the Chantry right. That doesn't even mention the constant Qunari War that the Tevinters will have to split attention away from in order to help mages, which may lead to the Qunari sacking Minrathous.  Which is complete conjecture, I'll admit, but if that occurs it'll make things worse for mages given the crumbling of their support, Tevinter would likely call back any support they send to mages if this comes close to occuring.  Ultimately, as long as the war with the qunari is a stalemate for the Imperium, they will not likely fully support this conflict anyway, and it would be smarter to send non descript agents to help rather than full blown support.

So lets get to the wild and crazy conjecture, since everyone else is doing it.  This conflict is pointless to me because the two outcomes that come from it are diametrically opposed, and as such, given Bioware Storytelling™, I know at worse some middling middle road will occur, making our decision to join either side ultimately pointless. 

If the mages win, Tevinter White occurs (if Jowan was able to surprise and incapacitate the First Enchanter of Fereldan, imagine what a more powerful mage can do without any awesome main characters to save him), People are enslaved, the Chantry is disbanded somehow, despite the people still believing in it, mage oligarchy rules Thedas.  This is based on the fact that it is drilled into our skulls that one cannot be a powerful mage without succumbing to Blood Magic, our awesome controlled characters, of course, excluded.  We have not yet been told of one non tevinter mage that can go toe to toe with a Magister, outside of Hawke, and the Warden and to be fair, that's probably plot armor talking.  And the mages that do not will be forced to get in line by their betters, or become slaves themselves.

If the Templars win, mages are subjugated and enslaved further, the Chantry gains more power, possibly enough to form it's own state, Templars are more closely intergrated with local forces due to enlarged ranks through public support, as well as working with local lords through bribery of Lyrium, even the Apostate will have trouble hiding in Thedas due to being sold out due to low public opinion, pure tyrannical state.

Neither of these scenarios will occur.  They would require Bioware to make future games in two completely different universes.  What will happen; Mages and Templars fight to a stand still, random third force comes out of nowhere, smashes a nation, awesome main character unites Thedas against Third threat, the people rejoice, the Chantry loses power or fragments completely, ignoring the fact they still have public support, Mages are granted total freedom, despite the fact that these people would not likely be that progressive, and people haven't thanked or given support to mages post Blights, but this allows Bioware to allow you to choose a side, which doesn't matter, and leads you down a plot point, which can be built further from in the future, but also won't matter.

Heh. Sad but true. 

It looks like it'll be more of an asspull than defeating the Reapers. And that has the potential to be a pretty huge one. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juillet 2011 - 07:41 .

[Harid]

Lyrium Withdrawal is in the game, Alistair mentioned it.

Of course, I don't recall any Templars in withdrawal going on murderous rampages, it tends to make them feebleminded and docile. But people have their agendas to show, or have overactive imaginations, perhaps.

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...
Heh. Sad but true. 

It looks like it'll be more of an asspull than defeating the Reapers. And that has the potential to be a pretty huge one. 

Can't wait till Shepard finds a *Turn off Reaper* switch that the Protheans created but never implemented for some reason.

The rage will be awesome.

Modifié par Harid, 26 juillet 2011 - 07:46 .

[Ryzaki]

Harid wrote...

Lyrium Withdrawal is in the game, Alistair mentioned it.

Of course, I don't recall any Templars in withdrawal going on murderous rampages, it tends to make them feebleminded and docile. But people have their agendas to show, or have overactive imaginations, perhaps.

Yeah I miss-typed. 

I meant to say all the people with lyrium withdrawal was scatterbrained and shakey. They weren't violent. Heck Samson lets you threaten him to his face, knows Hawke has gold but doesn't attack him/her. He just begs on the street. The guy in DAO just says the chant in a disjointed way. (though his brain has been wrecked by the lyrium and it's hard to tell if he's suffering withdrawal or overexposure) and Immeric isn't violent at all. He just stammers and pleads and stands their brokenly even when the Warden tries to release him. He wasn't even angry. (and he had good reason to be furious). 

It also seems judging from Samson in Act 3 that it's possible to get clean. (which again kind of stops the frothing at the mouth addicts) image after a while. Templar talents don't require lyrium as Alistair makes clear. Yonger templars have a much better chance of being able to quit quicker and not need to rely on the lyrium. Older ones might suffer dementia and I can see the people forcing them into homes/killing them if they're too much of a problem. It like most drugs probably depends on the templar. 

Harid wrote...
Can't wait till Shepard finds a *Turn off Reaper switch* that the Protheans created but never implemented for some reason.

The rage will be awesome.

My headdesk will be epic. 

I hope it involves dark energy so there's at least *some* foreshadowing. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juillet 2011 - 07:52 .

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...

Harid wrote...

Lyrium Withdrawal is in the game, Alistair mentioned it.

Of course, I don't recall any Templars in withdrawal going on murderous rampages, it tends to make them feebleminded and docile. But people have their agendas to show, or have overactive imaginations, perhaps.

Yeah I miss-typed. 

I meant to say all the people with lyrium withdrawal was scatterbrained and shakey. They weren't violent. Heck Samson lets you threaten him to his face, knows Hawke has gold but doesn't attack him/her. He just begs on the street. The guy in DAO just says the chant in a disjointed way. (though his brain has been wrecked by the lyrium and it's hard to tell if he's suffering withdrawal or overexposure) and Immeric isn't violent at all. He just stammers and pleads and stands their brokenly even when the Warden tries to release him. He wasn't even angry. (and he had good reason to be furious). 

It also seems judging from Samson in Act 3 that it's possible to get clean. (which again kind of stops the frothing at the mouth addicts) image after a while. Templar talents don't require lyrium as Alistair makes clear. Yonger templars have a much better chance of being able to quit quicker and not need to rely on the lyrium. Older ones might suffer dementia and I can see the people forcing them into homes/killing them if they're too much of a problem. It like most drugs probably depends on the templar. 

I see a noble simply buying off a Templar's loyalty with smuggled lyrium, and then teaching Chantry secrets to it's own standing forces.  When you have mages rampaging through towns to likely destroy their phylactery, people will want their lords to do something about it, and that seems the most logical conclusion to come to; which in the end may lead to things being worse for mages, based on that nobles' ideas or beliefs about mages, and if this is successful, it would probably carry along through Thedas.

Even better that you won't need to give your standing forces lyrium?  Seems like a no-brainer.

But you are right.  The effects of lyrium withdrawal are being vastly overstated.  Seems to be no worse than any other addictive hardcore drug given that people can possibly go clean from it, only a matter of willpower.

Modifié par Harid, 26 juillet 2011 - 07:59 .

[Ryzaki]

Harid wrote...
I see a noble simply buying off a Templar's loyalty with smuggled lyrium, and then teaching Chantry secrets to it's own standing forces.  When you have mages rampaging through towns to likely destroy their phylactery, people will want their lords to do something about it, and that seems the most logical conclusion to come to; which in the end may lead to things being worse for mages, based on that nobles' ideas or beliefs about mages, and if this is successful, it would probably carry along through Thedas.

Even better that you won't need to give your standing forces lyrium?  Seems like a no-brainer.

But you are right.  The effects of lyrium withdrawal are being vastly overstated.  Seems to be no worse than any other addictive hardcore drug given that people can possibly go clean from it, only a matter of willpower.

A rogue with templar talents?  Though I could see people lining up to get templar training maybe even paying wandering templars for it (maybe that's how some of them'll feed their addiction. Those that don't bother getting clean). 

Not to say detox won't be a pain in the ass but yeah it's not some impossibility. 

Those who been on lyrium for decades though are likely to have side affects as severe as Imeric if not worse. They might need proper treatement centers. And that's assuming the lyrium doesn't erode at their brain completely. Those templars would need to be taken off the frontline completely. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juillet 2011 - 08:10 .

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...

Harid wrote...
I see a noble simply buying off a Templar's loyalty with smuggled lyrium, and then teaching Chantry secrets to it's own standing forces.  When you have mages rampaging through towns to likely destroy their phylactery, people will want their lords to do something about it, and that seems the most logical conclusion to come to; which in the end may lead to things being worse for mages, based on that nobles' ideas or beliefs about mages, and if this is successful, it would probably carry along through Thedas.

Even better that you won't need to give your standing forces lyrium?  Seems like a no-brainer.

But you are right.  The effects of lyrium withdrawal are being vastly overstated.  Seems to be no worse than any other addictive hardcore drug given that people can possibly go clean from it, only a matter of willpower.

A rogue with templar talents?  Though I could see people lining up to get templar training maybe even paying wandering templars for it (maybe that's how some of them'll feed their addiction. Those that don't bother getting clean). 

Not to say detox won't be a pain in the ass but yeah it's not some impossibility. 

Those who been on lyrium for decades though are likely to have side affects as severe as Imeric if not worse. They might need proper treatement centers. And that's assuming the lyrium doesn't erode at their brain completely. Those templars would need to be taken off the frontline completely. 

Well, in the times of Dragon Age I don't see detox centers really occuring.  I doubt the science of detox is really known to the world of Dragon Age, given how well, no one really seems to study science but the Qunari.  They'd probably just throw them in a prison or some kind of home or hospital, or leave them to beg and scrape along the side of a road, provided they aren't an actual public threat.

[TEWR]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

Considering how most people treat mages in general it's not a hard guess. Finn's parents are the exception not the rule. [/quote]


Finn, Niall, Bethany, Hawke, the DeLauncets, Arl Eamon's family, and others that we've seen.


There's more there than just Finn.



[quote]

Where are you getting this "templars are gonna attack all mages." from? What proof is it that they're doing anything other than hunting the escaped circle mages (which is technicaly THEIR JOB). So no I don't see disorganized templars bothering wandering dalish clans that are hard to find in the first place. (only reason Merrill's clan was bothered was because they were camping far to close to a human ity.) and no it's not about being able to live the way you want to live otherwise this war would be trying to end slavery and the racism of the elves. It's about mages breaking free of the chantry. Full stop. [/quote]


So how is hearing all of this going to help? You've already lost all the Circles. In fact, haven't the Templars rebelled as well? I thought you decided to abandon the Chantry to hunt the mages. --- Varric


His lack of specifying Circle mages makes the idea of Templars hunting all mages the more likely scenario.


[quote]Except they already have a benefical arrangement. (Stay away from human population period). The templars aren't trying to take their mages to begin with. 
[/quote]

Act 3. Go talk to an old elven woman named Visell (before doing the Murder of Crows quest and Merrill's companion quest) I think and pick the diplomatic choice. She says Templars and Chantry priests came by and made poorly veiled threats telling them to "convert or die".


[quote]People act emotionally many times. Maybe not Kirkwall but the places that weren't affected by Meredith? Yeah I se them supporting the templars. [/quote]

I doubt it'll be as one-sided as you're making it out to be. Especially when the truth is revealed, which is what Cassandra is doing. And since the war is still going on, the tides may change.

And remember, Templars have gone rogue. The Chantry was their source for lyrium. Now they have to rely on smuggling lyrium, which costs coin. Which they don't have an income of. I would think that they would end up ransacking villages to get the coin.

Withdrawal also can kill, as Samson says. For all we know some of the rogue Templars died from the withdrawal.


[quote]Alistair is not a puppet. Anora trying to stop him would've spurned him own. 

Says who? Fereldan isn't a dictatorship (as the Landsmeet clearly showed). If those mages are gonna stay there it's more than likely gonna be put up to vote. And while Alistair may support them I don't see the rest of Fereldan being all gungho. 

They don't even need to be concerned about an exalted march. Just not want templars harassing their people. Fereldan benefits most by having Orlais exert itself while remaining in top form. Inviting a bunch of mages with little combat training and little life skills isn't overy benefical. Especially not when there was already a circle in Fereldan. 
[/quote]


Anora apparently frees the Circle for US mages. That seems to make her fairly pro-mage at least.

Alistair's dialogue in the meeting seemed to indicate he had authority over apostates.

Yes, let's not worry about an Exalted March. Let's not worry about Orlais invading! Alistair and Teagan seem pretty worried about Orlais invading. 

What do you think the mages train their skills for? You think training as a Force Mage is just for parties?


[quote]Tevinter is very survival of the fittest. I see them welcoming the chantry. [/quote]


Tevinter is smaller than it used to be. If they take in too many mages and non-mages in that small country, a new rebellion would topple them. The others have failed because Tevinter has kept their country in check in terms of slaves. They're also waging a war (one that they're not winning) with the Qunari.

They can't wage a war on two fronts with the Qunari and the rest of Thedas.


[quote]Conjecture. You have no proof they're hunting "all mages". None at all. As for lack of lyrium. The mages we see suffering from a deficiency don't become vindictive. They become scatter brained. [/quote]

See above. As for the bolded, now who's making conjecture? Where's the proof of mages becoming scatter-brained? None.


[quote]And it's foolish to think they'll leave their lands to attack other civilized groups of people that are not vulnerable to them and make enemies. 
[/quote]

Agree to disagree.


[quote]Once again. The Warden doesn't have to do that.[/quote]


Doesn't mean she won't still go.


[quote]Except her letters weren't getting out (probably due to her father) and Irving only let her in because the Warden vouched for her. [/quote]

Irving said the more he thought of the idea of a dwarf studying and giving the mages more knowledge of Orzammar, the more he liked the idea. The Warden vouching has almost nothing to do with it. It helps, but it isn't the reason she was admitted.


[quote]Except according to DAO that's exactly what it does mean. [/quote]

Except Bioware controls the story, not DAO.

They brought Leliana back, but are still acknowledging players' choices by saying an explanation will be given. Leliana's comments and her codex show that there is a reason for it.


[quote]I really would like to know where you're getting your info about Templars suffering lyrium withdrawal. It sure in hell isn't in the game. [/quote]

Gee I don't know, maybe from the ex-Templar Samson?


[quote]No it's not going to benefit other mages. You seem to have some bizzare impression of the templars as frothing at the mouth idiot beasts. Only a small idiot percentage is like that. (same with mages) The Wardens will put them down and the sensible templars will elave them the hell alone. The Wardens is an organization that garners large amounts of respect. [/quote]

One soldier can turn the tide of a battle. Likewise, the death of one soldier can turn the tide of a battle.


Darkspawn Chronicles showed the possibility of the Warden being a key component to the Blight being defeated.


Every Templar death helps the mages. And Rylock the Templar said that Chantry authority supercedes the crown when she went after Anders, who by law was untouchable. Maybe it was just her being a ****, or maybe the Chantry didn't care and wanted Anders apprehended or killed. Who knows.




[quote]Conjecture. There's nothing suggesting those bandits were hired by the Chantry. [/quote]

Hence why I said "I'm thinking". I never claimed it as fact. But they were indeed hired by someone. Their dialogue says as much.

[Ryzaki]

Harid wrote...
Well, in the times of Dragon Age I don't see detox centers really occuring.  I doubt the science of detox is really known to the world of Dragon Age, given how well, no one really seems to study science but the Qunari.  They'd probably just throw them in a prison or some kind of home or hospital, or leave them to beg and scrape along the side of a road, provided they aren't an actual public threat.

Which is really depressing. Templars join up because they need to feed their families, get strung out and then get discarded once they're no longer of use. 

Though what is the name of the home for retired templars? They put them somewhere..I just can't remember. I suppose Imeric must've been sent there.   

[TEWR]

Irminric went through withdrawal in the dungeons of Arl Howe and was either killed or rescued by his sister Alfstanna. What happened afterwards to him after being rescued is unknown, but most likely he was sent there.


The retirement home is in Val Royeaux, as the Templar in front of the Denerim Chantry says.

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...

Harid wrote...
Well, in the times of Dragon Age I don't see detox centers really occuring.  I doubt the science of detox is really known to the world of Dragon Age, given how well, no one really seems to study science but the Qunari.  They'd probably just throw them in a prison or some kind of home or hospital, or leave them to beg and scrape along the side of a road, provided they aren't an actual public threat.

Which is really depressing. Templars join up because they need to feed their families, get strung out and then get discarded once they're no longer of use. 

Though what is the name of the home for retired templars? They put them somewhere..I just can't remember. I suppose Imeric must've been sent there.   

I know it was in Orlais.  I don't recall the name of the place in Orlais they are sent to, probably the Grand Cathedral.

[Ryzaki]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Finn, Niall, Bethany, Hawke, the DeLauncets, Arl Eamon's family, and others that we've seen.


There's more there than just Finn.[/quote]

And that doesn't stop them from being exceptions. Bethany's the PC's sister so of course she's an exception and Hawke by virtue of being a BW PC doesn't count. (I mean my templar Hawke apparently is one of the better templars around without using a drop of lyrium. Hawke's always an exception). 
[quote]

So how is hearing all of this going to help? You've already lost all the Circles. In fact, haven't the Templars rebelled as well? I thought you decided to abandon the Chantry to hunt the mages. --- Varric


His lack of specifying Circle mages makes the idea of Templars hunting all mages the more likely scenario.[/quote]

Of course because when he says "the mages" he can't possibly be referring to those same mages that rebelled and ran from the circles right? The same mages he's been talking about the whole time? That's completely out of the question. 

Seriously? He's been saying "the mages" and meaning the circle mages the whole game. He isn't going to suddenly expand that to mean all mages period in the last sentence of the game. 

[quote]
Act 3. Go talk to an old elven woman named Visell (before doing the Murder of Crows quest and Merrill's companion quest) I think and pick the diplomatic choice. She says Templars and Chantry priests came by and made poorly veiled threats telling them to "convert or die".[/quote]

Didn't know that. But they would've never had to deal with that if they hadn't stayed there so long. Which for some reason the Keeper refused to let Merrill's fool self get possessed. They should've left years ago as Merrill says.

[quote]I doubt it'll be as one-sided as you're making it out to be. Especially when the truth is revealed, which is what Cassandra is doing. And since the war is still going on, the tides may change. 
And remember, Templars have gone rogue. The Chantry was their source for lyrium. Now they have to rely on smuggling lyrium, which costs coin. Which they don't have an income of. I would think that they would end up ransacking villages to get the coin.

Withdrawal also can kill, as Samson says. For all we know some of the rogue Templars died from the withdrawal.[/quote]

I'm not saying it'll be one-sided. Just that most of it is not gonna be in the mages favor. What truth is she revealing? That a rogue apostate blew up the Chantry? Judging by the scorn in her voice earlier she already knew that. And if the Chantry is as corrupt as you claim it is why would they expose that and make themselves look bad? 

And the mages would have to do the same exact thing. The chantry on the other hand wouldn't need such measures (and could recruit new templars). 

When does he say it can kill? Could've sworn he said the pain felt like it could kill him. But I might need to recheck. If so I doubt it's common. Detoxing from certain drugs can cause death though that is true. (for various reasons). 

[quote]
Anora apparently frees the Circle for US mages. That seems to make her fairly pro-mage at least.

Alistair's dialogue in the meeting seemed to indicate he had authority over apostates.

Yes, let's not worry about an Exalted March. Let's not worry about Orlais invading! Alistair and Teagan seem pretty worried about Orlais invading. 

What do you think the mages train their skills for? You think training as a Force Mage is just for parties?[/quote]

Less pro-mage and more pro-good PR. Not to mention the amount of player "WHAT!" if she and Alistair didn't give the same reward played a role.

Yes let's give them a reason to invade by housing mages! That'll help!

Considering how laughably easy it was for the templars to cut them down? That must be what they're doing.  

[quote]Tevinter is smaller than it used to be. If they take in too many mages and non-mages in that small country, a new rebellion would topple them. The others have failed because Tevinter has kept their country in check in terms of slaves. They're also waging a war (one that they're not winning) with the Qunari. 
They can't wage a war on two fronts with the Qunari and the rest of Thedas.[/quote]

True. 

[quote]
See above. As for the bolded, now who's making conjecture? Where's the proof of mages becoming scatter-brained? None.[/quote]

Oh yes. Imeric and that templar from the denerim chantry are conjecture. Silly me. 


[quote]Doesn't mean she won't still go.


Irving said the more he thought of the idea of a dwarf studying and giving the mages more knowledge of Orzammar, the more he liked the idea. The Warden vouching has almost nothing to do with it. It helps, but it isn't the reason she was admitted.[/quote]

Except according to the epilogue it was. You can't cherry pick the epilogues that apply. And the Warden vouching had something to do with it like it or not. For all we know Irving wouldn't have gotten that letter (I don't believe she knew he was the first enchanter) and it never would've happened. 


[quote]They brought Leliana back, but are still acknowledging players' choices by saying an explanation will be given. Leliana's comments and her codex show that there is a reason for it.
[/quote]
And that was a lame decision. You should not encourage that anymore than a retcon that Hawke supports the templars no matter what the player did. 
[quote]Gee I don't know, maybe from the ex-Templar Samson?
[/quote]So Samson was violent? Huh guess you got a different copy of DA2 than me! [quote]One soldier can turn the tide of a battle. Likewise, the death of one soldier can turn the tide of a battle.


Darkspawn Chronicles showed the possibility of the Warden being a key component to the Blight being defeated.


Every Templar death helps the mages. And Rylock the Templar said that Chantry authority supercedes the crown when she went after Anders, who by law was untouchable. Maybe it was just her being a ****, or maybe the Chantry didn't care and wanted Anders apprehended or killed. Who knows.[/quote]

Every templar death helps the mages...sure by a minisule amount. And every mage death helps the Chantry and the templars. 

The warden wasn't just a soldier. The warden was a leader. A soldier is valuable but nothing compared to a good leader. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juillet 2011 - 08:47 .

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Irminric went through withdrawal in the dungeons of Arl Howe and was either killed or rescued by his sister Alfstanna. What happened afterwards to him after being rescued is unknown, but most likely he was sent there.


The retirement home is in Val Royeaux, as the Templar in front of the Denerim Chantry says.

 

Ah thanks. 

Harid wrote...

I know it was in Orlais.  I don't recall the name of the place in Orlais they are sent to, probably the Grand Cathedral.

 

Wonder what they do there...just chill? 

[Harid]

Ser Thrask's death surely helped the mages.

Wait, no, it didn't, it led to a ton of deaths.

It's really not good to speak like well. . .Meredith does, but rather against Templars when you are trying to argue from a position of being more ethical than she is.

Suppose it's fine if you only care about mages, though.

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Irminric went through withdrawal in the dungeons of Arl Howe and was either killed or rescued by his sister Alfstanna. What happened afterwards to him after being rescued is unknown, but most likely he was sent there.


The retirement home is in Val Royeaux, as the Templar in front of the Denerim Chantry says.

 

Ah thanks. 

Harid wrote...

I know it was in Orlais.  I don't recall the name of the place in Orlais they are sent to, probably the Grand Cathedral.

 


Wonder what they do there...just chill? 

Sip Tom Collins' and dance the Remigold, I dunno.  I can't imagine the Chantry has any use for them, so they probably just chill, yeah.  Though for the purpose of this thread's tone, they set them loose to the countryside to hunt and kill Orlesian apostates, ohgedebogedyboo!

[Ryzaki]

Harid wrote...

Ser Thrask's death surely helped the mages.

Wait, no, it didn't, it led to a ton of deaths.

It's really not good to speak like well. . .Meredith does, but rather against Templars when you are trying to argue from a position of being more ethical than she is.

Suppose it's fine if you only care about mages, though.

Well to be technical it did help some mages (mostly the resolutionists) ra forbid there be compromise. 

I really wanted a compromise or "screw this." option. I wonder how many people would've taken the "screw you guys I'm going home." option if there was one available? 

Harid wrote...
Sip Tom Collins' and dance the Remigold, I dunno.  I can't imagine the Chantry has any use for them, so they probably just chill, yeah.  Though for the purpose of this thread's tone, they set them loose to the countryside to hunt and kill Orlesian apostates, ohgedebogedyboo!

They eat the poor Orlesian apostates. *tuts* 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juillet 2011 - 08:53 .

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...

Harid wrote...

Ser Thrask's death surely helped the mages.

Wait, no, it didn't, it led to a ton of deaths.

It's really not good to speak like well. . .Meredith does, but rather against Templars when you are trying to argue from a position of being more ethical than she is.

Suppose it's fine if you only care about mages, though.

Well to be technical it did help some mages (mostly the resolutionists) ra forbid there be compromise. 

I really wanted a compromise of "screw this." option. I wonder how many people would've taken the "screw you guys I'm going home." option if there was one available? 

Given the poll going around here, a majority of the board isn't interested in this conflict, so I would say likely the majority.  Neither Templars or Mages were really sympathetic in DA:2.

Though to be fair it's an even split among Try something new/Mage-Templar war/Globe spanning unite thedas epic which really scares me about the Bioware fan that they are so interested in the same Bioware gather the world epic that Bioware has been releasing since arguably BG2.

I personally don't want to get Mass Effect in a medieval skin and want to encourage Bioware to try new things all of the time.  /shrug  Thedas is large enough and we haven't seen enough of it for me to want any kind of world uniting epic anytime soon.

But I digress.  I wish I could say screw both of you, I'm solving this war myself, but hey.  Bioware heroes tend not to be proactive.

Modifié par Harid, 26 juillet 2011 - 09:02 .

[Ryzaki]

Harid wrote...
Given the poll going around here, a majority of the board isn't interested in this conflict, so I would say likely the majority.  Neither Templars or Mages were really sympathetic in DA:2.

Though to be fair it's an even split among Try something new/Mage-Templar war/Globe spanning unite thedas epic which really scares me about the Bioware fan that they are so interested in the same Bioware gather the world epic that Bioware has been releasing since arguably BG2.

I personally don't want to get Mass Effect in a medieval skin and want to encourage Bioware to try new things all of the time.  /shrug  Thedas is large enough and we haven't seen enough of it for me to want any kind of world uniting epic anytime soon.

But I digress.  I wish I could say screw both of you, I'm solving this war myself, but hey.  Bioware heroes tend not to be proactive.

I rather have another save the world epic than a headdesk like DA2. Though ME set in medieval skin wouldn't really work well. 

I wouldn't mind having to deal with two parties in a war though. Just...not mages and templars. Maybe Orlais and Fereldan again. 

I found the templars and mages equally sympathetic. Though it didn't take long for someone to show up to make all sympathy vanish (Alrik, Grace). And at the end of it I just wanted Hawke to kill em all. 

Ah well. I'm going to sleep. Night folks. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juillet 2011 - 09:08 .

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...

I rather have another save the world epic than a headdesk like DA2. Though ME set in medieval skin wouldn't really work well. 

I wouldn't mind having to deal with two parties in a war though. Just...not mages and templars. Maybe Orlais and Fereldan again. 

I found the templars and mages equally sympathetic. Though it didn't take long for someone to show up to make all sympathy vanish (Alrik, Grace). And at the end of it I just wanted Hawke to kill em all. 

Well, yeah, so would I but that's just because Dragon Age 2 was written poorly, and it isn't an issue with Bioware trying something new, the issue was they tried to reinvent the wheel when they did not have the time to do so.  Awakening, for instance, was better written than Dragon Age 2, and was churned out in similar time; the issue being that Bioware did not attempt to reinvent the wheel for Awakening, and did for Dragon Age 2.

I'd prefer a good version of Dragon Age 2 over every "unite the lost" game that Bioware has made.  One that either stuck to the Champion sub plot, or stuck to the Mage-Templar war from act one.  The problem with trying something new is it being bad, yes, but I don't enjoy being able to read every Bioware game's story because they keep going back to the flowchart.

Night.

Modifié par Harid, 26 juillet 2011 - 09:12 .

[TEWR]

And that doesn't stop them from being exceptions. Bethany's the PC's sister so of course she's an exception and Hawke by virtue of being a BW PC doesn't count. (I mean my templar Hawke apparently is one of the better templars around without using a drop of lyrium. Hawke's always an exception). 

I didn't realize it was an iron-clad rule that people should hate mage relatives. Huh...


The more you know! And remember kids, knowing is half the battle!

Of course because when he says "the mages" he can't possibly be referring to those same mages that rebelled and ran from the circles right? The same mages he's been talking about the whole time? 

Could he mean that? Sure. That's why I said in my previous post that it was the more likely scenario. I would think that with 3 years of warfare, news would spread that the only mages being hunted were ex-Circle mages.

But they would've never had to deal with that if they hadn't stayed there so long. Which for some reason the Keeper refused to let Merrill's fool self get possessed. They should've left years ago as Merrill says.

Doesn't negate the fact that the Templars were going after the elves instead of just leaving them alone when they weren't going out of their way to bother anyone. All they wanted was to just be left alone, and apparently people couldn't handle that. Even if you send Feynriel to the Dalish, the Templars are the ones who started the conflict. The elves didn't want bloodshed and gave them warnings (in my playthroughs those Templars die).

Still, Marethari was a massive idiot for not placing any faith in Merrill and keeping the clan on a cursed mountain rife with Spiders, Demons, corpses, Shadow Warriors (whatever the hell those are), Darkspawn, a crazed immortal Varterral, and dragons.

I'm not saying it'll be one-sided. Just that most of it is not gonna be in the mages favor. What truth is she revealing? That a rogue apostate blew up the Chantry? Judging by the scorn in her voice earlier she already knew that. And if the Chantry is as corrupt as you claim it is why would they expose that and make themselves look bad? 

And the mages would have to do the same exact thing. The chantry on the other hand wouldn't need such measures (and could recruit new templars). 

When does he say it can kill? Could've sworn he said the pain felt like it could kill him. But I might need to recheck. 

That Meredith was under the influence of a petty plot device that drove her insane which caused her to Annul the Circle when the culprit was sitting on a box awaiting justice (who is in his head ).

Anders blew up the Chantry yes, but Meredith's the one who caused the problem.

In both endings, Meredith is blamed by Cassandra. She either provoked the Circle or betrayed the Champion. Of course, Varric says the blame could be laid on Anders or the idol. Cassandra then says had Hawke not been there, it might not have even gone that far.

Crap whose fault was it? Ok, it was Kirkwall's fault. Kirkwall is the true enemy!

And I'm pretty sure Samson says withdrawal can kill you. Most forms of withdrawal can kill you.

Less pro-mage and more pro-good PR. Not to mention the amount of player "WHAT!" if she and Alistair didn't give the same reward played a role.

Yes let's give them a reason to invade by housing mages! That'll help!

Considering how laughably easy it was for the templars to cut them down? That must be what they're doing.  

It's still a sign of her character imo.

If they're going to invade anyway, what does Alistair have to lose? Empress Celene has been described as preferring expansionist policies (it was in a Codex. Can't remember where. I'll try to find it).

Oh yes. Imeric and that templar from the denerim chantry are conjecture. Silly me. 

You said mages become scatter-brained. Irmenric and the Chantry Templar aren't mages. So did you mean Templars or Mages become scatter-brained?

Except according to the epilogue it was. You can't cherry pick the epilogues that apply. 

yea.... no.





What I posted earlier was a paraphrase from the wiki. The epilogue doesn't say "Dagna was accepted only because the Warden vouched for her". Irving himself enjoys the idea of her being there. IIRC, there's a dialogue option to say that she's being foolish.

Where that leads I don't know. I'll have to do that on my DAO playthrough.

And that was a lame decision. You should not encourage that anymore than a retcon that Hawke supports the templars no matter what the player did. 

I never kill her, so I couldn't care less.

and people wouldn't have had such a problem with it if there was a line at the end of her codex saying that she was thought to have been killed, but whether the mountain's magic would heal her was unknown. I think Bioware now knows that if they're going to let you kill a character, there should be a hint that they may be seen again in the future.

It was a learning experience. There are plenty of plausible explanations for her being brought back. The problem is that Bioware never gave a hint that she might come back.

Every templar death helps the mages...sure by a minisule amount. And every mage death helps the Chantry and the templars. 

well, if there's any truth to what the loopy man in the Hanged man is saying, then mages are increasing in numbers and the Templars aren't able to handle them (Alrik).

His words were that his mother said that there are more mages than when she was a child. So, there's slightly (though not much) more reason to believe that statement. If he said "You know, there are more mages than when I was a child" I wouldn't believe him.

But... since he says his mother said it, it's slightly more believable, though I wonder if he's just making it up that his mother said that.

[Ryzaki]

@The Ethereal Writer Redux: Cute. Never said it was an ironclad rule that they hated the relatives (more like most of them feared them). If majority of people had relationships with their mage children the way your examples did there would be nowhere near as many "I don't know who my parents are/I was left at a yong age/my parents hate me." that you hear from so many mages.  If you tell Dagna it's foolish she sort of sighs and doesn't ask again (which my Wardens do). But really it's late and I can't debate anymore too tired. Just'll have to agree to disagree. Also I meant templars (you'd know that if you bothered reading my posts. ) We don't ever see a mage suffer lyrium withdrawal. Unlike the templars they probably don't have to use enough to get addicted. 

Harid wrote...
Well, yeah, so would I but that's just because Dragon Age 2 was written poorly, and it isn't an issue with Bioware trying something new, the issue was they tried to reinvent the wheel when they did not have the time to do so.  Awakening, for instance, was better written than Dragon Age 2, and was churned out in similar time; the issue being that Bioware did not attempt to reinvent the wheel for Awakening, and did for Dragon Age 2.

I'd prefer a good version of Dragon Age 2 over every "unite the lost" game that Bioware has made.  One that either stuck to the Champion sub plot, or stuck to the Mage-Templar war from act one.  The problem with trying something new is it being bad, yes, but I don't enjoy being able to read every Bioware game's story because they keep going back to the flowchart.

Night.

Point. 

Hey! I dig the flowchart. But I don't mind similar games. BW does those games best to me. The political intrigue on the other hand is better left to Suikoden and the Witcher. BW doesn't do grey well unless it's background noise (Genophage). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juillet 2011 - 09:24 .

[TEWR]

That DA2 failed to make the Mage-Templar conflict live up to how interesting it could've been does not mean the concept is bad. Just its execution.


But if Bioware fails to salvage it and make it as interesting as it should be, I'm done with the series.

[TEWR]

I meant that you can tell Irving it's foolish, not Dagna

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I meant that you can tell Irving it's foolish, not Dagna

I'm pretty sure you can insult Dagna too. Not sure if you can tell her dad before she leaves though. 

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...

Point. 

Hey! I dig the flowchart. But I don't mind similar games. BW does those games best to me. The political intrigue on the other hand is better left to Suikoden and the Witcher. BW doesn't do grey well unless it's background noise (Genophage). 

I can agree with this.

Suikoden being dead brings tears to my eyes, though the nonsensical betrayals in some of them. . .mehhhhhhhh.  But that's a different discussion for a different time.