1411 Antworten in diesem Thema

[TEWR]

I don't think it's fair to compare WWII to the Mage-Templar War.

No one in all of Thedas have gunpowder, nuclear bombs, tanks, RPGs, machine guns, etc.

Well, the Qunari have gunpowder, but that's about it.

They're using very archaic military and can't cause as much damage. Rome is the best thing to compare the war to in terms of battle victories to war victories..


edit: 'd on the Rome comparison.

Bearbeitet von The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 Juli 2011 - 04:56 .

[Ryzaki]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
But they do sue him...sure it's not on-screen but it's mentioned several times that Cudyd spents most of the legal budget of the Hospital on House.

Oh yeah. Nevermind. Well in that case it's kind of unrealistic that they keep him there instead of firing him. (I know the guy comes close as does Cuddy).

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
One minute everyone's going on about how mages need to be controlled because they're walking nuclear gods and they can incinerate entire galaxies with a thought and all that exaggeration. Then the next minute it's stupid that they can hold their own in a war because they're so weak and pathetic.

It's actually a fair distinction. Raw power and military capacity are different things. Mages, at least ones in the Circle, have raw power (that can be boosted by blood magic and demons), which as we have seen can get out of control and cause a lot of damage to everyone including mages. That does not equal military discipline, understanding of tactics, ressources....etc.

Mages can cause a lot of damage, but that's not enough to fight disciplined men and win the war.

Mages won't be fighting pitched battles most likely (though seeing how stupid they are, I would not be surprised), but a succesful guerilla war cannot be accomplished without at least some popular support, and I see little reason why people would a priori sympathize with mages especially after what happened. Could mages acquire such support? Maybe, but they will need to work for it very hard. 

Something that the fool Anders probably never thought of by the end.

Pretty much this.  Having raw power doesn't make up for not having sound military tactics, something no mage outside of Fereldan, maybe Rivain or the Tevinter should not have.

Bioware painted this conflict stating that mages generally cannot enter military service as to not pick a side.  Templars on the other hand are out fighting all of the time, largely by comparison.  So what we have are people with military training versus people who are powerful but do not, and raw power doesn't win in these things.  Generally, in these things, it's raw power that gets beaten by sound military tactics.  Granted, It's not as if I don't expect mages to win a few battles.  It's more so the entire war I speak of when I speak of losing.

I've stated it before, I don't care if mage vie for freedom, they have every right to.  However, I see this going the way of the Servile Wars, where status quo would logically be upheld due to lack of public support.  The sad thing is unlike the Servile Wars, mages do not have a charismatic leader, so eh.  This is beyond underdogs fighting the system, this was poorly planned and should end poorly, but will not due to the third scenario I picked winning out a while ago, as Bioware goes back to world saving epic after framed narritive failed them so.

Rifneno wrote...

Complaining about Mass Effect is daft enough since we have no idea how Shepard is going to accomplish the
task. But some of these complaints about DA are even worse. We're basing this on 10 kilobytes of data from an unreliable codex and 50 petabytes of assumptions from people whose views it just coincidentally enforces.
Funny that.

The analogy drawn to Mass Effect was me mocking the dumb assed writing you are defending right now.  A bit of hyperbole, as I don't think Bioware would be that stupid, but I don't base my perceivement of mage hate off of nothing, and have drawn my conclusions off of more that the codex, yet you draw your mage support out of part of your ass.  Wait. . .this is some kind of avante-garde ironic trolling isn't it. (No, it's actually quite overt trolling, but the mods won't ban you, so whateverthe****)

If you think a bunch of people indoctrinated by Chantry Teachings are going to respect Mages for bombing a Chantry, have the progressiveness to blame apostates rather than circle mages, and won't fear these same innocent circle mages as they rove into towns to destroy their phylacteries, and steal food, among other things, well then. . .I don't know.  Perhaps mages will kindly ask towns to lead them to their phylactery vaults, as they don't want any trouble, and town leaders will have no problem with this, right!  Go, mages!  To acquire support, mages will have to pretty much control their bad elements 100%, and Blood Mages are stronger than regular mages, how will they?

Bearbeitet von Harid, 26 Juli 2011 - 08:52 .

[Rifneno]

nitefyre410 wrote...

^  This right here 

/co sign

also.... +10 internets for you and 

Nitefrye approves  +15

Thank ye, good sir.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wait.... Dr. Gregory House isn't a realistic character? How so? I thought he was plenty realistic.

Actually I suppose he's moderately realistic. Hits upon a few of the completely untrue cliches that Hollywood loves to make up about geniuses like that they speak half the languages on Earth or that they just suddenly get some light bulb above their head and figure out something that makes all the pieces of the puzzle fit perfectly. What's startlingly realistic actually is that he's a miserable bastard. Not only have studies linked high intelligence to higher susceptibility to a variety of mental illnesses, just imagine what a ****** you'd be if your entire life you had to deal with everyone around you being too dumb to understand you.

Like most shows, the biggest foolishness is the way the world works around them. For instance, vicodin doesn't make you see dead people. As Ryzaki said, yeah there's no way in hell he'd get away with the stuff he does. Did I mention that vicodin isn't PCP?

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's actually a fair distinction. Raw power and military capacity are different things. Mages, at least ones in the Circle, have raw power (that can be boosted by blood magic and demons), which as we have seen can get out of control and cause a lot of damage to everyone including mages. That does not equal military discipline, understanding of tactics, ressources....etc.

You remember why the Qunari don't rule all of Thedas?

More importantly, who's to say they don't have those things? The only one of them that's a physical thing is resources, which could easily be traded for. How many crops are lost because of the weather? When you can, say, summon a rain storm during a drought I'm sure there's plenty of farmers willing to feed the mages that saved their business for the year. I doubt I need to explain the value of being able to heal wounds and cure diseases.

Mages can cause a lot of damage, but that's not enough to fight disciplined men and win the war.

Because you say so I guess.

What you forget is the unique context that Kirkwall had. Meredith's clumsiness engendered a sympathy for mages not found anywhere else

When did you get the time to do this polling of all the fictional citizens of Thedas? That's impressive.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Can mages even summon a rain storm? All I've seen was a blizzard and a bunch of lightning, not exactly the kind of stuff farmers want on their farm..

Anyway... Raw power may win you a fight, but it won't win you the war against an tactically superior enemy. They will simply turn your own strengths against you. To draw on the legends: The Battle of Thermopylae, where the approximately 7.000 Greeks held off the nummerically far superior Persian army (of between 100.000-300.000 men). The Greeks knew that the Persians would obliterate them on the open field, despite the Greeks superior trainning, so they picked a battlefield where the Persians' numbers wouldn't matter, and where the great size of their armies would actually work against them (due to the size of the army, it constantly needed new supplies and couldn't stay in the same place for long). They used the Persians strength against them.

Okay that became a longer example than intended. My point stands though. The tacically superior enemy, will always find a way to use your own strengths against you.

[Shadow Fox]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

You do realize that as a Templar you can chose to spare the mages that surrendered right?I call that being merciful just because you think the Chantry has a conspiracy to kill/tranquil all mages doesn't make it true.

Sorry to butt in on this. Having someone with the power to "spare" the mages is precisely the problem - it indicates that mages have no existence other that what others may choose to bestow upon them.

And the Chantry isn't involved in some "conspiracy." No. It is simply that over time it has probably morphed into a tyrannical organization that oppresses both mages and templars. The oppression of templars isn't so obvious because they hold a sort of of "divine right of domination" over mages, which the Chantry intentionally preaches. Just because the Chantry may be perceived as a charitable organization towards others, doesn't mean that it is somehow "good" toward the mages. And why is it that one has to look beyond one's concerns, whatever the rest of the circumstances might be - boggles the mind that.

And when will you get it through your thick skull that not all Templars are evil just as not all mages are good and that being a Templar does not make you Meredith? And I love how you keep bringing up TWO Templars did you forget about Idunna,Grace,Tarahone,Danarius,Hedrianna,Quintin,Gascad and the horde of blood and slaver mages we fight throughout the game or are you conviently ignoring them for the sake of your argument?

All very true. But it isn't so much about mages and templars, but the system that they are under.

And Anders probably thought that blowing up the Chantry was striking a blow at the very heart of that system. One could debate whether the act was morally justified (seeing that it perhaps also blew up possible innocent bystanders) or even rational (seeing that the "cause" itself might be undermined to an extent), but that is all I see as somewhat questionable. I see Anders' act as a symbolic one - one he hoped would ignite a spark of rebellion. And like all such acts, perhaps, it was one of desperation - not of cold calculation.

I have no problem with people thinking the chantry and it's Templar system are corrupt ,what I have a problem with is this asumption that EVERY Templar joins the Order because he's a psychotic murdering rapist.

[Rifneno]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I have no problem with people thinking the chantry and it's Templar system are corrupt ,what I have a problem with is this asumption that EVERY Templar joins the Order because he's a psychotic murdering rapist.

I have a problem with your assumptions about other people having assumptions. Also about your definition of "merciful" that would give pause to Genghis Khan but that's another story.  That's what this is about?  All your screeching was because after everytime we said "the templars suck" we didn't give a 2 page disclaimer about not meaning every single one?

[dragonflight288]

Don't forget that the mages have had centuries of practicing politics among the fraternities. Isolationists could easily back out of the fight if their phylactery is destroyed and just live peacefully. Loyalists likely would go to the chantries and become healers or throw themselves on the templars swords. Libertarians would likely be the most visible of the mages in the war.

All these fraternities and in-fighting has allowed many mages to be well versed in politics.

Not every war is won through tactics, superior numbers, and power, but can simply be political.

The chantry is corrupt beyond reason, but they are still politically active throughout Thedas. By losing their templars, you will have roving bands of templars claiming a divine calling as they rape and pillage across Thedas hunting mages. Not every templar will, but when you have large numbers, you have a great need of resources. An army must march on their stomach, in addition to the lyrium. Then you have templars like Samson who pretty much inhale the dust.

Every ounce of lyrium looted from the chantry or smuggled from Orzammar won't last long. Neither does equipment as it wears down and needs repairs.

If the war lasts long enough, the chantry may see more benefits politically allowing mages more freedoms so long as templars continually harass thedas in their so called holy quest.

I see this war less as one of great battles and military tactics, but one of attrition and political. I can see skirmishes destroying the lives of those involved by both sides, depraved templars and bloodmages both.

Either way, things will not be pretty throughout Thedas for the next few decades.

[ThePhoenixKing]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Don't forget that the mages have had centuries of practicing politics among the fraternities. Isolationists could easily back out of the fight if their phylactery is destroyed and just live peacefully. Loyalists likely would go to the chantries and become healers or throw themselves on the templars swords. Libertarians would likely be the most visible of the mages in the war.

All these fraternities and in-fighting has allowed many mages to be well versed in politics.

Not every war is won through tactics, superior numbers, and power, but can simply be political.

The chantry is corrupt beyond reason, but they are still politically active throughout Thedas. By losing their templars, you will have roving bands of templars claiming a divine calling as they rape and pillage across Thedas hunting mages. Not every templar will, but when you have large numbers, you have a great need of resources. An army must march on their stomach, in addition to the lyrium. Then you have templars like Samson who pretty much inhale the dust.

Every ounce of lyrium looted from the chantry or smuggled from Orzammar won't last long. Neither does equipment as it wears down and needs repairs.

If the war lasts long enough, the chantry may see more benefits politically allowing mages more freedoms so long as templars continually harass thedas in their so called holy quest.

I see this war less as one of great battles and military tactics, but one of attrition and political. I can see skirmishes destroying the lives of those involved by both sides, depraved templars and bloodmages both.

Either way, things will not be pretty throughout Thedas for the next few decades.

Excellent points here. You're right, I would say in the long run that the templars are going to be facing major logistical issues, as well as be unable to maintain public support assuming the schism between them and the Chantry continues. That being said, let's remember that the Chantry is not a completely homogenous organization; there are good people and bad people in it, fanatics like Petrice taking similar vows as harmless scholars like Justine and Genetivi, for example. Moreover, the Chantry has split in the past, with the schism between the Imperial and orthodox branches of the faith, and I doubt that the Divine has complete control over every single one of her parishes (especially considering the current Divine wasn't elected with a full consesous).

In the early stages of the war, at least, I could imagine individual members of the Chantry or even entire local denominations supporting the templars if the politics of their leaders are closer to the mage-haters. If the situation worsens, there might even be a doctrinal split or revolt over the issue of mages, with opposing Grand Clerics making a grab for the seat of the Divine, either using the templar cause as a pretext for their own ambitions or simply out of what they see as doing the Maker's work by supporting them. Just because the templars have revolted doesn't mean that the Chantry can't conceviably mend the rift, one way or another.

Still, excellent points.

DKJaigen wrote...

We dont know how the war is progressing their are simply to many factors to take into account. And if you know anything of military stratergy you will realise that a negative popular support is just as usefull as positive support. In fact as a mage you would find being reviled much more usefull then only being half hearted supported by the general populace

You're going to have to substatiate that a bit. How in the world is being feared and hated going to help the mages win the war more easily?

Sons of Horus wrote...
Wow...Dude you just owned this thread!

Thanks, it's much appreciated!

Rifneno wrote...

You could see it, but it wasn't going to happen. You're right on one thing, the Chantry was taking action. They were preparing an Exalted March on Kirkwall. Anders might well have known that, since it was revealed to Hawke in Sebastian's Act III personal quest. Yeah, everyone hated Meredith. And the Chantry might have looked bad if they didn't lie enough about the goings on in Kirkwall before they destroyed it. Lots of dictators are hated. It doesn't matter if they have enough military might to do whatever they please. And they do here.

Lots of dictators possess military power, but that doesn't mean their position is unassailable. Just look at all these Arab Spring revolutions that have been going on, the fact that Syria or Tunisia or Egypt have large militaries doesn't mean that the people aren't going to rise up. Revolutions don't occur because the people think the government is weak enough to fall, they happen because the people are tired and hungry and out of work and frightened and too frustrated to give a damn if the state has a single division or a hundred. And if you look at the case of Egypt, the military ended up supporting the protestors before the end!

Moreover, Meredith's own templars are divided by the time Act III starts. Even if you don't consider Thrask's insurrection, there are plenty of templars like Cullen who are only doing their duty because of their vows, and are becoming increasingly uncertain about the situation. That's hardly an unstoppable force, and regardless, the templars are outnumbered anyways. In the face of a popular revolution, perhaps spearheaded by Hawke and the City Guard, they would not last forever.

The United States is a superpower, but they were eventually driven out of Vietnam by what most people consider to be a fourth-rate army wearing pajamas. The Soviet Union was a superpower in the 1980's, but the mujahideen and Ahmad Shah Massoud beat them all the same. Military strength is not enough in an increasingly-hostile environment where you possess little sympathy or legitimacy.

Red Viking wrote...

First of all, I would like to thank you for both your compassion and the fact your argument is much more diplomatic then Jugo616's.  You have a valid point and I also believe that Meredeth was out of control and helped to create a powder keg that was ready to explode.  Had Anders not blown up the Chantry, someone else would have done something.  I recognize the situation for what it was.

However, I can no longer see this from a morally neutral point of view.  Had we been talking about this two months ago, I would have even agreed that Anders was intended to be a sympathetic figure.  But now?  I can't see him as anything other than another villain in this story.

Entirely understandable. My point was not that the morality of the issue isn't important, but even if it wasn't, Anders' actions were the wrong thing to do. Still, I comprehend your meaning. If something similar had happened in my hometown, I doubt I could look at it objectively either.

In Exile wrote...

But war isn't a stupid business unless you're in the business of losing wars, and what Anders did is a kind of epic stupid. Not only does he strike a blow against public opinion for the mages, but he's practically beggining for an Exalted March (if the mage rebellion isn't just about freedom, but about destorying the Chantry). 

That aside, I replayed DA2 recently, and when Anders orbital lazers the Chantry, the explosion sets fire to all of Kirkwall. Not just Hightown, but the flames reach as low as Lowtown. 

How many innocent people and peasants burned to death because of what he did? The fact that the revolution may well be justified has nothing to do with Anders doing the right thing. 

Quoted for truth. Anders may have been right in spirit or not (a point that I am sure we will be debating until the stars burn out) but it was an idiotic move no matter how you slice it.

Crap, I need to get to bed soon...

Bearbeitet von ThePhoenixKing, 27 Juli 2011 - 05:15 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

ThePhoenixKing wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

We dont know how the war is progressing their are simply to many factors to take into account. And if you know anything of military stratergy you will realise that a negative popular support is just as usefull as positive support. In fact as a mage you would find being reviled much more usefull then only being half hearted supported by the general populace

You're going to have to substatiate that a bit. How in the world is being feared and hated going to help the mages win the war more easily?

If I may venture a guess - it was probably by using that fear itself. I think his point was notoreity in that sense is more useful than sitting on the fence. One has to have some motivation to dive into the conflict. Not that I agree with using fear, but it has been known to be used. I shouldn't do this - I'll let him speak for himself.

Moreover, Meredith's own templars are divided by the time Act III starts. Even if you don't consider Thrask's insurrection, there are plenty of templars like Cullen who are only doing their duty because of their vows, and are becoming increasingly uncertain about the situation. That's hardly an unstoppable force, and regardless, the templars are outnumbered anyways. In the face of a popular revolution, perhaps spearheaded by Hawke and the City Guard, they would not last forever.

My impressions: Kirkwall if I understood correctly is a stronghold of templars, and has been for some time now. And by Act 3 the City Guard had been weaked by the Qunari onslaught - more so than the templars, if my understanding of the situation was correct. So I'm not sure I subscribe to templars being outnumbered. And I would argue that the templars are more accomplished warriors than a civilian police force like the City Guard.

One could argue for popular support or even mutiny within the templars' ranks in this context, but how effective would it have been? A lot relied on Meredith losing her sanity sooner than later - but was that entirely on the cards? Would someone have bidden his time till such a breaking point, if at all it happened?

I do not know how things would unfold henceforth, but I too think Anders was hasty and that his action was immoral.

The United States is a superpower, but they were eventually driven out of Vietnam by what most people consider to be a fourth-rate army wearing pajamas. The Soviet Union was a superpower in the 1980's, but the mujahideen and Ahmad Shah Massoud beat them all the same. Military strength is not enough in an increasingly-hostile environment where you possess little sympathy or legitimacy.

These happened during Cold War days. And that means any activity by one superpower in some region necessarily had to have some opposition from the other. It was not merely that the Vietnamese or Afghans won because of their guerilla warfare, on their own accord. Both the superpowers had vested interests in the regions - one was warring, the other aiding the locals. So I don't think it was entirely the losing of popular support that led to their respective defeats.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Been away too long. Thread necro time!

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

If I may venture a guess - it was probably by using that fear itself. I think his point was notoreity in that sense is more useful than sitting on the fence. One has to have some motivation to dive into the conflict. Not that I agree with using fear, but it has been known to be used. I shouldn't do this - I'll let him speak for himself.

Maybe, but you're right: it's his point, he should substantiate and defend it .

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

My impressions: Kirkwall if I understood correctly is a stronghold of templars, and has been for some time now. And by Act 3 the City Guard had been weaked by the Qunari onslaught - more so than the templars, if my understanding of the situation was correct. So I'm not sure I subscribe to templars being outnumbered. And I would argue that the templars are more accomplished warriors than a civilian police force like the City Guard.

One could argue for popular support or even mutiny within the templars' ranks in this context, but how effective would it have been? A lot relied on Meredith losing her sanity sooner than later - but was that entirely on the cards? Would someone have bidden his time till such a breaking point, if at all it happened?

I do not know how things would unfold henceforth, but I too think Anders was hasty and that his action was immoral.

A fair point about the Guard; they certainly took more losses during the Qunari attack than the templars. That being said, Hawke can mention in Act III that the Guard is capable of "giving the templars a run for their sovereigns", and it's likely that their ranks have been filled somewhat and their losses recovered in the three year gap. Certainly, the Guard is a much more united force than the templars, and while the Guard may in fact be outnumbered, at the end of the day, even the most loyal templars like Cullen couldn't follow Meredith anymore. Pencil in the endless ranks of gangs and mercenaries and the forces of the mobility, then an open rebellion against Meredith might have a chance, particularly with the use of guerrilla tactics, raids and ambushes.

The United States is a superpower, but they were eventually driven out of Vietnam by what most people consider to be a fourth-rate army wearing pajamas. The Soviet Union was a superpower in the 1980's, but the mujahideen and Ahmad Shah Massoud beat them all the same. Military strength is not enough in an increasingly-hostile environment where you possess little sympathy or legitimacy.

These happened during Cold War days. And that means any activity by one superpower in some region necessarily had to have some opposition from the other. It was not merely that the Vietnamese or Afghans won because of their guerilla warfare, on their own accord. Both the superpowers had vested interests in the regions - one was warring, the other aiding the locals. So I don't think it was entirely the losing of popular support that led to their respective defeats.

Ah, very true, you do raise an excellent point that I had neglected. Touche.

Bearbeitet von ThePhoenixKing, 05 August 2011 - 09:17 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

ThePhoenixKing wrote...

A fair point about the Guard; they certainly took more losses during the Qunari attack than the templars. That being said, Hawke can mention in Act III that the Guard is capable of "giving the templars a run for their sovereigns", and it's likely that their ranks have been filled somewhat and their losses recovered in the three year gap. Certainly, the Guard is a much more united force than the templars, and while the Guard may in fact be outnumbered, at the end of the day, even the most loyal templars like Cullen couldn't follow Meredith anymore. Pencil in the endless ranks of gangs and mercenaries and the forces of the mobility, then an open rebellion against Meredith might have a chance, particularly with the use of guerrilla tactics, raids and ambushes.

Granted. In any case, with Anders having done what he did, we'll never get to know. At least, there could have been an option to dissuade him, and then to take charge from there. Would have been really great. Not sure how much game development that would have entailed seeing that it was the end game and all, but I think it would have been well worth it.