1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Blood magic.

No, in all honesty: blood magic is a school in which you can manipulate the mind. We know there are also schools of magic (the dreamers) which can infiltrate and explore minds. While I only presume those magics are related to blood magic, the Guardian's insights needn't be omniscience, but rather psychic insight.

[Clover Rider]

 Boy I miss old Anders:unsure:

[heretica]

Some Geth wrote...

 Boy I miss old Anders:unsure:

I only miss Greg Ellis' voice

[Clover Rider]

Catt128 wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

 Boy I miss old Anders:unsure:

I only miss Greg Ellis' voice

But he is in DA2 but old Anders is not:?.

[errant_knight]

I think Anders has been corrupted, not just Justice. The old Anders railed against the Chantry, but I think he would have drawn the line at mass murder. Neither he nor Justice remain, just two different modes of Vengence.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think both Anders and Justice are very confused "individuals". Anders despises mages that resort to blood magic and become abominations, while he himself is struggling against a spirit he knows was corrupted, making him at best a "half-abomination". Justice in the Fade despises demons and will fight you if you deal with one, but doesn't realize that he is becoming a demon.

And to add to that, both are thinking that they are one (and it might be true). So Anders was not really sober at the end. I think he was a very confused man. I think it could be argued that he was losing his sanity, though I am not sure of that myself. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 10:38 .

[Darian Tylmare]

Well, at first I wanted to punch him in the face. This whole problem nad the wars are all thanks to selfish jerks like him or Merideth. What he did was pretty stupid because the freedom he baught the mages is grounded in the blood of other innocents.
Of cource things were dire for mages and in Kirkwall(!) Merideth did surpress them, but everywhere else it seemed to run at least ok. But it was his selfishness coupled with the thought the he was the only one right that this did happen in the way they did.
Now the whole world is burning because one man ignited the will to fight in a minority which had a pretty decent life.
But I only found out after I sided with the mages because I think oppression is wrong.

[Denizen89]

I thought what he did was partly right because it was superstitious fear that the Chantry was spreading (not all of it was warranted). Did they deserve it? No. No one deserves that. Though the people not doing anything about it are just as bad as the people committing the atrocities. I think if the game had another mage i could use as a healer then yes I think I would have punished Anders but not for pay back. Anders was more or less the bomb and it moved the story in the right way.

[passionata]

Anders did the right thing in the end it was the grand clerics fault that things gotten this far out of hands and it was HER duty to confront Meredith but she did not!

And to the anti Anders folks:
What would have happened with that unholy abomination which more and more drifted off to outright craziness and was going all genocide on the mages? Who would have been the next victims of her crusade?

You do not honestly want to be pro genocide here do you?

That beeing said Anders knew it was an injustice he had performed because it harmed possibly innocent folks but it was a price he was willing to pay.

Would the anti Anders faction here really say Stauffenberg's attempt to kill Hitler was an act of terror just because a few civilians might have died as well if the bomb would have been planted?

If so well I better do say nothing in these forums...but in the end you all will submit to the Qun!

That would have been an interesting turn of events if the viscount would have submitted to the Qun and expelled the Templars.

Modifié par passionata, 15 mars 2011 - 11:02 .

[Fafner_Ni]

I killed Anders and i don't regret it. He is neither my friend Anders or Justice, he's an awful twisted mess. The worst part was i thought there was hope for him during the rebellion quest, when he talks about the Templars and Mages working together.

[KnightofPhoenix]

passionata wrote...
Would the anti Anders faction here really say Stauffenberg's attempt to kill Hitler was an act of terror just because a few civilians might have died as well if the bomb would have been planted?

A very bad example. The 20 July plot was specifically designed to assassinate Hitler.
Had the plot been about blowing a German cathedral, with Hitler no where near it, then yes, it would have been an act of terror and a rather stupid one.
Anders plan was not about assassinating Meredith. It was about starting full scale war and giving Meredith reason to start a genocide, in the hopes that this will force mages to fight and not bow down (surprise surprise, many including the first enchanter go mad).

And many here and elsewhere say that they kill Anders, but side with mages anyways. So no, many are not pro-genocide, if annulment is to be considered a genocide.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 11:17 .

[Drussius]

I think people are missing one very obvious point in the whole situation. Anders did not free mages everywhere. And he did not destroy the chantry all over Thedas. Whether you agree with the Chantry's ideas or not, whether you think mages should be free or need oversight, if there's one thing I've gleaned from reading the Codexes in these games it's this: When someone kicks the Chantry in the face, the Chantry kicks back harder.

So here's what I think would come of the whole situation. You have Anders blowing up the Chantry, leading to out-and-out war in Kirkwall between Templars and Mages. But that's only one city among several kingdoms. You don't think the Templars would come down like a hammer on the other Circles just to be sure the rebellion wouldn't spread? And the city of Kirkwall would never be able to stand up to an Exalted March called upon it. Not in a million years. Especially after the battle between Mages and Templars leaves most of the city burning and a bunch of the people dead.

Whatever Anders's motives might have been and whatever he intended, this sort of thing never leads to positive outcomes. If anything, Anders declaring war on the Chantry on behalf of all mages would be more likely to get mages everywhere made Tranquil as a precaution than to earn them their freedom. He's a self-righteous a**, and it's a lot of innocent mages everywhere that will be paying the price for his power trip. It's easy for him to claim he did what was right and then tell Hawke to kill him if he/she wishes. It spares him from having to suffer the consequences along with all the other poor mages that will be even more oppressed if not outright slaughtered for his actions.

A decade ago, some zealots had the brilliant idea (read: idiotic idea) of flying some planes into the world trade center to make a statement, much like Anders was trying to do by blowing up a single Chantry building. How did that go for the terrorist group behind the WTC? How do you think it would go for Mages? Powerful or not, Mages are far from the majority in numbers. And whether you agree with religion or not, true believers fight awfully hard when they're protecting those beliefs. I'm sure an Exalted March is nothing to laugh at.

Edit: If anything, i think in DA3, we'll be taking the role of a new hero, who will be trying to pick up the pieces and end the slaughter that Anders started, in the hope of bringing peace. It certainly seems like the Seekers at the end were trying to find someone with a proven record of getting things done to help them get the world back on its feet. But neither of them seemed to be frightened that mages would find them in the city. They had a whole platoon of men just standing outside. If I had to guess, I'd guess that meant the Chantry put an end to full scale rebellion pretty darn quick.

Modifié par Drussius, 15 mars 2011 - 11:32 .

[Carmen_Willow]

@ppasionata.

You wrote: "That beeing said Anders knew it was an injustice he had performed because it harmed possibly innocent folks but it was a price he was willing to pay."

Anders did not pay the price.  The people blown up in the Chantry paid the price!  How dare he decide for those people that they should lay down their lives for HIS cause!

I would have respected him if he had set himself on fire after an impassioned speech or started a Ghandi-like rebellion.  As it was, I was glad to execute hiim - even though he'd been my LI for 3 years.

[Edit for typo]

Modifié par Carmen_Willow, 15 mars 2011 - 11:31 .

[TheJediSaint]

passionata wrote....
Would the anti Anders faction here really say Stauffenberg's attempt to kill Hitler was an act of terror just because a few civilians might have died as well if the bomb would have been planted?

First: Godwin's law!

Second: Grand Cleric Elthina was not Hitler!  In fact, she was the probably the most resonable of Kirkwall's leaders.  Killing her was a crime in and of itself.  By destroying the chantery and killing everone inside just to kill her only goes to show how Anders had degenerated from a freedom fighter to a selfish fanatic.

[edit: spelling]

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 15 mars 2011 - 11:49 .

[LeoAlbus]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had it comming.

Mmm, indeed. Far too much fundamentalistic zealotry over that reasoning imo, it's very 'jihadist' of you to hold such a view. 
And a view like so... isn't less of a dogmatic absolute simply because there's no archaic text or deity attached to it. As Eric Hoffer once wrote; To know a person's religion we need not listen to his profession of faith, but must find his brand of intolerance.

[Chronicdoodler]

I was completely mortified when he did that. Any hope for a peaceful resolution was lost, its hard to convince people mages are not evil or destructive when Anders and Orsino resort to violence to the extreme.

Not saying the actions are not justified (albeit terrible and unconsciousable), but the templars always say that given enough reason Mages will resort to spirits and demons. Whether out of desperation (Kirkwall), or seeking power (Tevinter).

Also the Grand Cleric was a nice old lady, as was most of the sisters and brothers in the chantry and even the occasional templar.

EDIT: Also despite what he intended, he did not free the mages. He started a selfish war that puts every mage in Thedas in danger, despite what they believe. To protect themselves they will inevitably have to either turn to blood magic, spend their wholes lives running and denying who they are or risk being found out,  or surrender to a templar blade on principle. 

I had thought that the solution would be to deny people to practice magic until they have a license of sorts, and then allow them to teach other mages through apprenticeship and the templars would seek out maleficar, but according to Fenris Tevinter tried that and it didn't work out so well.

As usual, this game makes sure the options and situations are not black and white.

Modifié par Chronicdoodler, 15 mars 2011 - 11:56 .

[AtreiyaN7]

I didn't smile. I was sick to my stomach and heartbroken. His actions were the wrong way to go about it, but this was in part the result of his merging with Justice. That doesn't excuse it, but it explains things. Justice/Vengeance is not forgiving, and he is not merciful. This hardline side of the merged Anders' personality leads him to believe that it's totally logical and acceptable to nuke the Chantry. To everyone else, it's a terrorist, extremist move.

As a mage though, I was sympathetic and ultimately stood with the other mages. I was never a huge templar fan to begin with, and I was even less templar-friendly after seeing Meredith's oppressive treatment of the mages, but you know, boith sides are right in a way. Mages can be a danger, but it was only Meredith's harshness that led the Kirkwall mages to become increasingly desperate and turn to blood magic.

Ugh, I forgave Anders though, but that's because of the romance. I really wanted to beat the crap out of him for what he did, and I felt terrible for Sebastian, but still, I forgave him. *sigh* Yes, you really can do stupid things because of love, no matter how principled you are.

[Time Victim]

Blowing up the Chantry was the funniest thing Anders has done yet. It was like one huge joke and Sebastian was on the recieving end of it.

[TJPags]

Yup - blowing up a bunch of innocent people is always the right thing to do when stuck in a difficult situation.

Good job, Anders.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

LeoAlbus wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had it comming.

Mmm, indeed. Far too much fundamentalistic zealotry over that reasoning imo, it's very 'jihadist' of you to hold such a view. 
And a view like so... isn't less of a dogmatic absolute simply because there's no archaic text or deity attached to it. As Eric Hoffer once wrote; To know a person's religion we need not listen to his profession of faith, but must find his brand of intolerance.

Way to rip out a small part of my argument and attacking it, without seeing it as a whole, and thus missing the point completely.

Do you deny that the state of the world is what it is, not based only on our actions but also our inaction? And that doing nothing sometimes is worse than doing something "bad"?

Modifié par SomeoneStoleMyName, 15 mars 2011 - 11:59 .

[Lilaeth]

OK, in RL I would have acted differently, but here I did consider killing him, except that by time Sebastian had got up my nose so much I just thought, suck this up, Chantry Boy! He really pressed several buttons in me that are still sore from a childhood of listening to religious stuff when I really didn't want to! So now I'm hoping there's going to be a follow-up DLC to let him follow through on his threat to hunt down my 'precious Anders', cos my Champion will be waiting for him!!

Unless Bioware do the decent thing and give me a romanceable Nathaniel Howe!

[Squeeze the Fish]

"The price of inaction is far greater than the cost of making a mistake."
Meister Eckhart

I'm not saying I support Anders' actions, not at all, but I don't think the Chantry blameless.

Modifié par Squeeze the Fish, 16 mars 2011 - 12:04 .

[Tainan7509]

Drussius wrote...

I think people are missing one very obvious point in the whole situation. Anders did not free mages everywhere. And he did not destroy the chantry all over Thedas. Whether you agree with the Chantry's ideas or not, whether you think mages should be free or need oversight, if there's one thing I've gleaned from reading the Codexes in these games it's this: When someone kicks the Chantry in the face, the Chantry kicks back harder.

So here's what I think would come of the whole situation. You have Anders blowing up the Chantry, leading to out-and-out war in Kirkwall between Templars and Mages. But that's only one city among several kingdoms. You don't think the Templars would come down like a hammer on the other Circles just to be sure the rebellion wouldn't spread? And the city of Kirkwall would never be able to stand up to an Exalted March called upon it. Not in a million years. Especially after the battle between Mages and Templars leaves most of the city burning and a bunch of the people dead.

Whatever Anders's motives might have been and whatever he intended, this sort of thing never leads to positive outcomes. If anything, Anders declaring war on the Chantry on behalf of all mages would be more likely to get mages everywhere made Tranquil as a precaution than to earn them their freedom. He's a self-righteous a**, and it's a lot of innocent mages everywhere that will be paying the price for his power trip. It's easy for him to claim he did what was right and then tell Hawke to kill him if he/she wishes. It spares him from having to suffer the consequences along with all the other poor mages that will be even more oppressed if not outright slaughtered for his actions.

A decade ago, some zealots had the brilliant idea (read: idiotic idea) of flying some planes into the world trade center to make a statement, much like Anders was trying to do by blowing up a single Chantry building. How did that go for the terrorist group behind the WTC? How do you think it would go for Mages? Powerful or not, Mages are far from the majority in numbers. And whether you agree with religion or not, true believers fight awfully hard when they're protecting those beliefs. I'm sure an Exalted March is nothing to laugh at.

Edit: If anything, i think in DA3, we'll be taking the role of a new hero, who will be trying to pick up the pieces and end the slaughter that Anders started, in the hope of bringing peace. It certainly seems like the Seekers at the end were trying to find someone with a proven record of getting things done to help them get the world back on its feet. But neither of them seemed to be frightened that mages would find them in the city. They had a whole platoon of men just standing outside. If I had to guess, I'd guess that meant the Chantry put an end to full scale rebellion pretty darn quick.

I completely agree with you. What Anders did, it just reminds me about 9/11. It turns out a World War. Btw, i think Hawke will still remain as main character for next DA3 because i felt this character needs more story for the next chapter in DA3. There are a lot fo unanswer questions needs to be done with Hawke and Wardens.

[Darian Tylmare]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...



Way to rip out a small part of my argument and attacking it, without seeing it as a whole, and thus missing the point completely.

Do you deny that the state of the world is what it is, not based only on our actions but also our inaction? And that doing nothing sometimes is worse than doing something "bad"?

Apathy may be death, but killing people just to trigger a reaction that tries to force change that leads to even more suffering than before is in my oppinion wrong.
Before his attack, only mages suffered. And that was the most extreme in Kirkwall. From what is known from Feralden, not all circles did oppress their mages to no end. And on the other hand, mages are more powerful than any other commoner. Anders did create a situation where the stronger ones are not restricted anymore to pray on the weak.
But Anders created a situation, where everybody suffers in a brutal civil war which has it's roots in religion, not unlike the 30 year war in Germany (It's considered as one of the most barbaric times in the german history).

[Sabariel]

The blame of what happened does not solely rest with Anders. The Chantry/templars had a hand in what happened as well. I do not agree with what Anders did, but I understand it.