1411 réponses à ce sujet

[ezrafetch]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

LeoAlbus wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had it comming.

Mmm, indeed. Far too much fundamentalistic zealotry over that reasoning imo, it's very 'jihadist' of you to hold such a view.
And a view like so... isn't less of a dogmatic absolute simply because there's no archaic text or deity attached to it. As Eric Hoffer once wrote; To know a person's religion we need not listen to his profession of faith, but must find his brand of intolerance.

Way to rip out a small part of my argument and attacking it, without seeing it as a whole, and thus missing the point completely.

Do you deny that the state of the world is what it is, not based only on our actions but also our inaction? And that doing nothing sometimes is worse than doing something "bad"?

Except that is your argument, isn't it? To claim that Anders blowing up the Chantry was righteous is bigoted. If you condone Anders' actions, you are implicitly condoning every successful terrorist operation that has inflicted its wounds on people, including 9/11. Anders' move in DA2 amounted to terrorism and jihad. Sparking a "righteous" and "holy" war against the world. Except it's not righteous and holy, it was an altogether ridiculous attempt to goad the Chantry into war just like how Al-Qaeda ridiculously goaded the United States into war.

I honestly think you're just condoning Anders' actions because you have some abstract and unfounded hatred for religion and are happy to see damage inflicted on it, even on some totally inapplicable fantasy/video game level. Ignorance for the truth is what gets you to be so fundamentalist, and it's what turns you into what Anders became at the end of DA2.

I'm not exonerating the Chantry for their own actions, but to think that Anders was right in his act of terrorism is simply absurd. And if the mages want their freedoms, an act of terrorism is NOT the way to go about trumpeting your cause.  Doing nothing may be worse than doing something, but how can blowing up a Chantry with innocents and civilians be considered better than doing nothing?  There is simply no reasonable moral justification for what he did.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 16 mars 2011 - 12:21 .

[Helen0rz]

disagree.

killing innocents can never and should not be justified. if you were one of the few people that were there at the Chantry that day just to pray and whatnot and got got blown up, bet you won't say that.

I dont agree with everything the Chantry says, but killing innocent people will not make things better. in face, it makes you as cruel and ridiculous as Meredith's view, which means Anders sank to her level.

and on top of that, if you sided with the mage and romancing him at the same time, you'd be mad at him like I am.

[The Minority]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

(End game spoilers)


Am i the only one who thinks Anders did the right thing by blowing up the chantry? I mean religion is purposly spreading lies to deceive and control people in the false pretense of bringing hope and peace. Disinformation and lies are evils that goes hand in hand with religion. There is no empirical evidence that the maker is real, therefore brainwashing and manipulating children and weak minded grown ups into this web of lies is evil in nature.

Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had it comming.

When Anders did what he did i smiled from ear to ear. Such a blow to superstition is a great victory for Thedas`s future. If this future first needs to be cleansed in a tidal wave of blood to remove the parasites that believes in the maker, then it is totally fine. There must be sacrifices before things can get better.

Just as the body first weakens from disease, it will then be strengthened against it after. The disease in this matter being the "maker"

HAIL ANDERS!

Do you have proof there is no Maker?

And don't bring real religion into the equation.

[MorningBird]

I have to say, I didn't expect there to be any 'middle-ground' concerning the templar vs mage conflict in DA2. In fact, I fully expected an outcome where Hawke would have to choose a side. I was also hoping that the decision wouldn't be as cut and dry as 'Evil Hawke chooses Templars, good Hawke chooses mages'. I wanted there to be compelling reasons to side with both, so props to BioWare on that for a job well done.

I understand WHY people want a middle ground, but really, as much as I liked the Grand Cleric, Elthina was only putting off the inevitable. People seem quick to blame Anders for everything going to shambles at the last minute, but all that transpired was going to happen eventually.

Meredith had the Idol. It WAS driving her insane, and that insanity is what pushed Anders--the apostate underground and some circle mages--over the edge. It's like Varric said (paraphrased) "The tighter she squeezed, the more they resisted. The more they resisted, the tighter she squeezed."

That 'squeezing' is what started the sudden onslaught of blood mages in Act 3. According to Anders, anyway (who says quite angrily that he's seen many good mages turn to blood magic out of desperation during that act) and I question whether there would have been enough momentum for a mage uprising if Meredith had managed to keep her head. I guess we'll never find out.

In any case, the moment Meredith called for the Right of Annulment I was pretty firmly on Anders side. Particularly for her reasoning. The 'guilty' mage was right in front of her, but she wanted to wipe them all out anyway.

Why? Because the 'civilians' wouldn't be appeased with his execution alone. They'd cry for the deaths of all of mages in Kirkwall, and Meredith was ready to to make that happen. There are two reasons why the chantry and templars have control over the mages. One is to protect the people from out of control mages. The other is to protect mages from people who would persecute them simply for BEING mages.

It's the templars' job to protect mages from irrational civilians (supposedly.) Instead of following through with that duty by handling the aftermath of the chantry's destruction at the hands of an APOSTATE, they decided to annul THE CIRCLE.

This, to me, just proved how flawed the system has become. Even if Meredith made the decision under the idol's influence, it says something that the mass majority of her templars were a-okay with forsaking one their duties (particularly the one that pertained to the protection of their wards against mass hysteria) in the face of civil unrest.

In any case, I kind of agree with Varric's sentiments regarding the ordeal. It wasn't a single person who started the war, it was a culmination of unfortunate and unforseen events.

Really, if Anders hadn't jumped into action, maybe the game would have spanned 15 years instead of 10. However, I think it would have all ended the same, regardless.

Despite Elthina's pleas for peace, you can't have peace without change. The chantry has had plenty of time and opportunity to change it's methods, to find that 'middle-ground' everyone seems to want. They missed their chance, and now Thedas is going to have to suffer the consequences.

I'm not saying Anders was right to blow up the Chantry. We won't know what events his actions inspired until DA3. However, I'm firmly on his side in DA2. Once again, maybe that's just because I expected that I would have to choose a side.

I just thought it would be between Meredith and Orsino, not Meredith and Anders.

Modifié par MorningBird, 16 mars 2011 - 12:30 .

[Kingofdragoons]

The Minority wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

(End game spoilers)


Am i the only one who thinks Anders did the right thing by blowing up the chantry? I mean religion is purposly spreading lies to deceive and control people in the false pretense of bringing hope and peace. Disinformation and lies are evils that goes hand in hand with religion. There is no empirical evidence that the maker is real, therefore brainwashing and manipulating children and weak minded grown ups into this web of lies is evil in nature.

Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had it comming.

When Anders did what he did i smiled from ear to ear. Such a blow to superstition is a great victory for Thedas`s future. If this future first needs to be cleansed in a tidal wave of blood to remove the parasites that believes in the maker, then it is totally fine. There must be sacrifices before things can get better.

Just as the body first weakens from disease, it will then be strengthened against it after. The disease in this matter being the "maker"

HAIL ANDERS!

Do you have proof there is no Maker?

And don't bring real religion into the equation.

I agree completely. That post has been bugging me since I read it... Almost sounds like hes talking about religion in general half the time.

[Jenova65]

Mmmm, you aren't really talking about Anders and the *Maker* are you..................?!
*Cynical face*

[Darian Tylmare]

MorningBird wrote...

Meredith had the Idol. It WAS driving her insane, and that insanity is what pushed Anders--the apostate underground and some circle mages--over the edge. It's like Varric said (paraphrased) "The tighter she squeezed, the more they resisted. The more they resisted, the tighter she squeezed."

That 'squeezing' is what started the sudden onslaught of blood mages in Act 3. According to Anders, anyway (who says quite angrily that he's seen many good mages turn to blood magic out of desperation during that act) and I question whether there would have been enough momentum for a mage uprising if Meredith had managed to keep her head. I guess we'll never find out.


It's the templars' job to protect mages from irrational civilians (supposedly.) Instead of following through with that duty by handling the aftermath of the chantry's destruction at the hands of an APOSTATE, they decided to annul THE CIRCLE.

This, to me, just proved how flawed the system has become. Even if Meredith made the decision under the idol's influence, it says something that the mass majority of her templars were a-okay with forsaking one their duties (particularly the one that pertained to the protection of their wards against mass hysteria) in the face of civil unrest.


Really, if Anders hadn't jumped into action, maybe the game would have spanned 15 years instead of 10. However, I think it would have all ended the same, regardless.

Despite Elthina's pleas for peace, you can't have peace without change. The chantry has had plenty of time and opportunity to change it's methods, to find that 'middle-ground' everyone seems to want. They missed their chance, and now Thedas is going to have to suffer the consequences.

I'm not saying Anders was right to blow up the Chantry. We won't know what events his actions inspired until DA3. However, I'm firmly on his side in DA2. Once again, maybe that's just because I expected that I would have to choose a side.

I just thought it would be between Meredith and Orsino, not Meredith and Anders.

From what I thought is that for many mages and almost all commoners the circle was an exceptable middle-ground. There are always people who aren't satisfied, but for me they always seemed to be a minority.
I can understand that Merideth's zealotry fueled the conflict, but the right of annulment was taken before and there seemed to be no big consequences for the rest of the world.
So, in the end I think Anders did start a stupid war because of his own issues.

[Sabariel]

The Minority wrote...

Do you have proof there is no Maker?

And don't bring real religion into the equation.

Of course. He's part of a video game

[The Minority]

Sabariel wrote...

The Minority wrote...

Do you have proof there is no Maker?

And don't bring real religion into the equation.

Of course. He's part of a video game

I see what you did there.

Let me rephrase: Does he have any proof there is no Maker in the Dragon Age universe?

[Sabariel]

MorningBird wrote...

I have to say, I didn't expect there to be any 'middle-ground' concerning the templar vs mage conflict in DA2. In fact, I fully expected an outcome where Hawke would have to choose a side. I was also hoping that the decision wouldn't be as cut and dry as 'Evil Hawke chooses Templars, good Hawke chooses mages'. I wanted there to be compelling reasons to side with both, so props to BioWare on that for a job well done.

I understand WHY people want a middle ground, but really, as much as I liked the Grand Cleric, Elthina was only putting off the inevitable. People seem quick to blame Anders for everything going to shambles at the last minute, but all that transpired was going to happen eventually.

Meredith had the Idol. It WAS driving her insane, and that insanity is what pushed Anders--the apostate underground and some circle mages--over the edge. It's like Varric said (paraphrased) "The tighter she squeezed, the more they resisted. The more they resisted, the tighter she squeezed."

That 'squeezing' is what started the sudden onslaught of blood mages in Act 3. According to Anders, anyway (who says quite angrily that he's seen many good mages turn to blood magic out of desperation during that act) and I question whether there would have been enough momentum for a mage uprising if Meredith had managed to keep her head. I guess we'll never find out.

In any case, the moment Meredith called for the Right of Annulment I was pretty firmly on Anders side. Particularly for her reasoning. The 'guilty' mage was right in front of her, but she wanted to wipe them all out anyway.

Why? Because the 'civilians' wouldn't be appeased with his execution alone. They'd cry for the deaths of all of mages in Kirkwall, and Meredith was ready to to make that happen. There are two reasons why the chantry and templars have control over the mages. One is to protect the people from out of control mages. The other is to protect mages from people who would persecute them simply for BEING mages.

It's the templars' job to protect mages from irrational civilians (supposedly.) Instead of following through with that duty by handling the aftermath of the chantry's destruction at the hands of an APOSTATE, they decided to annul THE CIRCLE.

This, to me, just proved how flawed the system has become. Even if Meredith made the decision under the idol's influence, it says something that the mass majority of her templars were a-okay with forsaking one their duties (particularly the one that pertained to the protection of their wards against mass hysteria) in the face of civil unrest.

In any case, I kind of agree with Varric's sentiments regarding the ordeal. It wasn't a single person who started the war, it was a culmination of unfortunate and unforseen events.

Really, if Anders hadn't jumped into action, maybe the game would have spanned 15 years instead of 10. However, I think it would have all ended the same, regardless.

Despite Elthina's pleas for peace, you can't have peace without change. The chantry has had plenty of time and opportunity to change it's methods, to find that 'middle-ground' everyone seems to want. They missed their chance, and now Thedas is going to have to suffer the consequences.

I'm not saying Anders was right to blow up the Chantry. We won't know what events his actions inspired until DA3. However, I'm firmly on his side in DA2. Once again, maybe that's just because I expected that I would have to choose a side.

I just thought it would be between Meredith and Orsino, not Meredith and Anders.

Totally agree with you. You said everything I wanted to say

[KnightofPhoenix]

MorningBird wrote...

I have to say, I didn't expect there to be any 'middle-ground' concerning the templar vs mage conflict in DA2. In fact, I fully expected an outcome where Hawke would have to choose a side. I was also hoping that the decision wouldn't be as cut and dry as 'Evil Hawke chooses Templars, good Hawke chooses mages'. I wanted there to be compelling reasons to side with both, so props to BioWare on that for a job well done.

I understand WHY people want a middle ground, but really, as much as I liked the Grand Cleric, Elthina was only putting off the inevitable. People seem quick to blame Anders for everything going to shambles at the last minute, but all that transpired was going to happen eventually.

I am going to argue that a middle ground solution was possible, but violence, specifically against Meredith was unavoidable. And no, it was not Grand cleric Ethina that could have made it happen. At best, we get her symbolic support and blessings.

And the reason I say that a middle groudn was possible, is that practically everyone is pissed at Meredith:
- Mages are getting angrier by the minute. Their opposition is natural and doesn't need to be expanded upon. 
- Many Templars within the order are either skeptical of Meredith (like Cullen), or actively resisting her (like Thrask). This is crucial. She has opposition within her own power base.
- The nobility. Many see what Meredith is doing as a power grap, once she essentially kept Kirkwall in limbo, with no viscount.  some noble houses tried to claim the position, but were clamped down hard by Meredith.
- The Guards. We know that Meredith is increasingly encroaching upon the guards and trying to weaken Aveline, whom the Guards love and are very loyal to.  They are not pleased.
- The common people. We hear that many within the common people are getting more and more sympathetic for the plight of mages, because they think Meredith is going too far (and by Chantry standards, she is).

- Potentially, the Chantry itself, or at least Elthina. Either she would have stayed neutral, or would have provided support for the opposition.

All these factions could have been mobalised as an opposition front against Meredith. What it would have required is strong leadership, which is not the Grand Cleric (I was hoping it would have been Hawke).  And it would have been able to stand and remove Meredith, either non-violently (not likely) or violently.
What Anders did, essentially, made that option completely unfeasible.

That said, I don't think that would have been easy. There were obstacles to this. A big one is idiot mages like Grace who need to be wiped out. But I think the Circle and Templar resistance could collaborate to weed out the extremists within their ranks. But it would require very strong and effective leadership.

And that would have simply delt with the symptoms and would not have necessarily offered a permanent solution (in my experience though, there is no such thing).  But ithe stability it would have established might have provided the opportunity of reform. Again, it will depend a lot on the leadership, if they have a sense of vision and if they can sell it. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 12:45 .

[VettoRyouzou]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

I have to say, I didn't expect there to be any 'middle-ground' concerning the templar vs mage conflict in DA2. In fact, I fully expected an outcome where Hawke would have to choose a side. I was also hoping that the decision wouldn't be as cut and dry as 'Evil Hawke chooses Templars, good Hawke chooses mages'. I wanted there to be compelling reasons to side with both, so props to BioWare on that for a job well done.

I understand WHY people want a middle ground, but really, as much as I liked the Grand Cleric, Elthina was only putting off the inevitable. People seem quick to blame Anders for everything going to shambles at the last minute, but all that transpired was going to happen eventually.

I am going to argue that a middle ground solution was possible, but violence, specifically against Meredith was unavoidable. And no, it was not Grand cleric Ethina that could have made it happen. At best, we get her symbolic support and blessings.

And the reason I say that a middle groudn was possible, is that practically everyone is pissed at Meredith:
- Mages are getting angrier by the minute. Their opposition is natural and doesn't need to be expanded upon. 
- Many Templars within the order are either skeptical of Meredith (like Cullen), or actively resisting her (like Thrask). This is crucial. She has opposition within her own power base.
- The nobility. Many see what Meredith is doing as a power grap, once she essentially kept Kirkwall in limbo, with no viscount.  some noble houses tried to cloim the position, but were clamped down hard by Meredith.
- The Guards. We know that Meredith is increasingly encroaching upon the guards and trying to weaken Averline, whom the Guards love and are very loyal to.  They are not pleased.
- The common people. We hear that many within the common people are getting more and more sympathetic for the plight of mages, because they think Meredith is going too far (and by Chantry standards, she is).

- Potentially, the Chantry itself, or at least Elthina. Either she would have stayed neutral, or would have provided support for the opposition.

All these factions could have been mobalised as an opposition front against Meredith. What it would have required is strong leadership, which is not the Grand Cleric (I was hoping it would have been Hawke). 
What Anders did, essentially, made that option completely unfeasible.

That said, I don't think that would have been easy. There were obstacles to this. A big one is idiot mages like Grace who need to be wiped out. But I think the Circle and Templar resistance could collaborate to weed out the extremists within their ranks. But it would require very strong and effective leadership.

That.. exacly how I saw it to oddly enough, Sadly Hawk no Warden. For the Warden was so epic he made Werewolves and Elves kiss and make up...

[JulianoV]

Anders got the gears of history in motion. Kirkwall was a disaster waiting to happen. The CAntry was already about to send in people to settle the matters. What would've probably happened was that Meredith would be stripped of her post/had her little sword incident discovered and all mages would be made tranquil to avoid compromises.

Anders knew what was coming and sped up the process while the Templar/Chantry numbers were not as significant. Elthina knew of Meredith's wrongful use of power and stood silent. She stood silent when she had the influence to loosen the grip the Templars had developed not only over the mages, but over the city itself. The Order was turning Kirkwall into their capital, and this is undoubtedly wrong. By doing that they amassed the power to subjugate the mages and outright deny them the little rights they had left.

The Templars began a crusade on and headquarted in a town that did not belong to them, dillusional as a whole with their newfound power until things got "BOOOO! MAGICAL EVIL SWORD!"-clear.

There is NO right answer. Anders performed an act of "terror" to incite the mages to begin a movement and escape or at least fight for their freedom, dying instead of being turned into a walking potato. Mages turned to blood magic not unlike YOU would shoot a criminal police officer that ordered you to put your hands in the air for he will shoot you no matter what, should you have a gun at hand.

Anders gave the mages their only shot at freedom. It wasn't cautious, it wasn't fair to the innocent people inside the Chantry, it wasn't fair to the beautiful architecture of the town. Calling it terrorism, however, seems inappropriate. He did not seek to instill fear in a populace to shake their creed in the powers that be and their ability to keep them safe . He took an action IN THE NAME of the mages, for they wouldn't. He forced them to come out of hiding or silence. There were around ten people at the chantry at ANY given time, which does not make his actions any more justifiable, but the number should be taken in consideration as you think of how many mages would be made tranquil otherwise.

In a town of awkward silence with a mage tranquility/murder massacre right around the corner, he tossed the cell keys to every single fearful caged animal waiting to be sacrificed. It's easy to call him a freaking terrorist when one covers his ears and outright ignores the assinalagmatic genocide that was about to happen.

As I said, there is no easy answer, and there is no pretty ending. It's easy to taxate Anders a terrorist and say every single mage is an abomination waiting to happen, as well as it's easy to condemn the templars due to their out-of-line behaviour towards both mages and the town. There are good mages that would be made tranquil for being born with a power that saved many as well as murdered many, and there are good templars that wished only to protect the mages from themselves.

Saying there's a better solution is a disservice to the writers of a game that, while flawed, presented a compelling, powerful and tremendously divisive dilema. Anders gave an opressed mass a chance to die fighting. Demons or no demons. He is no hero, but he did what he could for his kind. Killing Meredith would only postpone the imminent approach of the Chantry, given Leliana's quest. Since I brought him along those set of quests I had a different light on the subject, which may be why I'm not so eager to absolutely demonize him. He dealt a blow to the Chantry before it ultimately silenced all of them. The only glint of decency the Order present in the city chose to turn a blind eye to the unquestionable inappropriate actions of Meredith, instead saying she refused to leave, prefering to stay around and WATCH idly. Her inaction was her demise.

I was just as sad as any other guy when she died, but while everyone was in love with her caring nature, I spent the entire game going "ok lady, could you be any more passive?" She took no stance, said the Maker would take care of all and let not only the Templar Order that was so based on her influency, but also some of her own Chantry sisters, run rampant. Her passive stance led to the buildup of the Qunary rise and her passive stance led to the Templar/Mage conflict.

Modifié par JulianoV, 16 mars 2011 - 12:56 .

[Kingofdragoons]

VettoRyouzou wrote...


That.. exacly how I saw it to oddly enough, Sadly Hawk no Warden. For the Warden was so epic he made Werewolves and Elves kiss and make up...

Well thats cause the Warden is the equivaliant of Chuck Norris in the Dragon Age universe... he.she makes darkspawn ****** themselves at the very mention of his.her name.

[jesot]

Anders is a retard.

I get the point of what he did. He wanted to cut the **** and put everyone on one side or the other so the war could start and there could be a final resolution to the conflict.

But he's a retard and he betrayed Hawke, who wasmaking some headway in resolving the situation peacefully with the eventual help of Ethina. The thing is, no one supported his cause. NO ONE.

[MorningBird]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

From what I thought is that for many mages and almost all commoners the circle was an exceptable middle-ground.

There are always people who aren't satisfied, but for me they always seemed to be a minority.

To me, the opinion of a commoner (in regards to how the circles are run) doesn't hold much value.  Commoners don't have to live in the circle, so why should they dictate how it is run?

If the commoners have any complaints, it should be in regards to the templars, and only the templars.  The templars have a job (hunting dangerous Maleficarum and bring apostates to the circle) that involves preserving and ensuring the safety of the common people, so if a commoner feels threatened because a templar has failed in their job, they have a right to complain.

Their 'contentment' with how the circle is currently run, however, doesn't mean a whole lot to me.

As for the mages, some seem content, others do not, so I can't say who makes up the majority.  I do think, however, that it's insinuated (and shown) in the game that more mages are unhappy than happy.

We know there's a well established apostate underground that helps circle mages escape the circle and Kirkwall.  We know that the majority of mages in Starkhaven were displeased enough with their way of life that they sided with Grace.  We know that while the 'Tranquil Solution' was rejected by the Divine and Meredith that it was still happening, and that mages who had passed their Harrowing and thought they were 'safe' from such measures now had reason to be fearful.  We know that a great number of mages (apostates in contact with Anders) succumbed to blood magic because they thought it was the only out of a desolate situation.

Plus, if the majority of mages were 'content' with their lives, why did all of the circle mages uprise in Thedas after the events of DA2?  If they were pefectly content with their lives, why is the world on the brink of war?

Darian Tylmare wrote...
I can understand that Merideth's zealotry fueled the conflict, but the right of annulment was taken before and there seemed to be no big consequences for the rest of the world. So, in the end I think Anders did start a stupid war because of his own issues.

Unless you were a circle mage who'd done nothing wrong, but I guess mages aren't 'people.'

I'm not arguing that Anders didn't start the war.  I'm aruging that the war was going to happen anyway.  Anders just made it happen sooner rather than later.

Modifié par MorningBird, 16 mars 2011 - 01:02 .

[JulianoV]

jesot wrote...

Anders is a retard.

I get the point of what he did. He wanted to cut the **** and put everyone on one side or the other so the war could start and there could be a final resolution to the conflict.

But he's a retard and he betrayed Hawke, who wasmaking some headway in resolving the situation peacefully with the eventual help of Ethina. The thing is, no one supported his cause. NO ONE.

Agreed. What some people tend to forget, and if one is not inclined to read my wall of text above, is that it was either him starting a war THEN, or sitting by idly and watching an entire mass genocide LATER due to Chantry Orders, as presented by Leliana.

[Darian Tylmare]

@ MorningBird
I can understand your point and I know there is neither a absolute guilty nor a absolute innocent side.
From what was said at the end it can be assumed that most mages were unhappy.
But I still think it was totally unnecessary.
I don't think there was a war looming either. Had the devine sent someone to get rid of Merideth and lessen the pressure on the circle in Kirkwall, everything would have be like always.
That's just my oppinion on this topic.

[KnightofPhoenix]

JulianoV wrote...
Agreed. What some people tend to forget, and if one is not inclined to read my wall of text above, is that it was either him starting a war THEN, or sitting by idly and watching an entire mass genocide LATER due to Chantry Orders, as presented by Leliana.

This is not the case. What Leliana said is that the Chantry is investigating the option (for good reason). They still had not decided yet.

If the middle ground solution that I proposed above worked, the Chantry would not be so inclined to declare an exalted march not only on mages, but on the people, nobility, guards of Kirkwall and even some of their own Templars. If the situation was brought under control and the Chantry's position respected, the divine has less reasons to declare war.

Could it be mad enough to do so regardless? Maybe. But it was not inevitable.

Your description of Anders mind set is classic self-fullfilling prophecy. It has merits, but I believe there was another way, at least to deal with the immediate threat.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 01:10 .

[MorningBird]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am going to argue that a middle ground solution was possible, but violence, specifically against Meredith was unavoidable. And no, it was not Grand cleric Ethina that could have made it happen. At best, we get her symbolic support and blessings.

And the reason I say that a middle groudn was possible, is that practically everyone is pissed at Meredith:

- Mages are getting angrier by the minute. Their opposition is natural and doesn't need to be expanded upon. 
- Many Templars within the order are either skeptical of Meredith (like Cullen), or actively resisting her (like Thrask). This is crucial. She has opposition within her own power base.
- The nobility. Many see what Meredith is doing as a power grap, once she essentially kept Kirkwall in limbo, with no viscount.  some noble houses tried to claim the position, but were clamped down hard by Meredith.
- The Guards. We know that Meredith is increasingly encroaching upon the guards and trying to weaken Aveline, whom the Guards love and are very loyal to.  They are not pleased.
- The common people. We hear that many within the common people are getting more and more sympathetic for the plight of mages, because they think Meredith is going too far (and by Chantry standards, she is).

- Potentially, the Chantry itself, or at least Elthina. Either she would have stayed neutral, or would have provided support for the opposition.

All these factions could have been mobalised as an opposition front against Meredith. What it would have required is strong leadership, which is not the Grand Cleric (I was hoping it would have been Hawke).  And it would have been able to stand and remove Meredith, either non-violently (not likely) or violently.
What Anders did, essentially, made that option completely unfeasible.

That said, I don't think that would have been easy. There were obstacles to this. A big one is idiot mages like Grace who need to be wiped out. But I think the Circle and Templar resistance could collaborate to weed out the extremists within their ranks. But it would require very strong and effective leadership.

And that would have simply delt with the symptoms and would not have necessarily offered a permanent solution (in my experience though, there is no such thing).  But ithe stability it would have established might have provided the opportunity of reform. Again, it will depend a lot on the leadership, if they have a sense of vision and if they can sell it. 

While agree with you that Meredith could have been ousted, in order to reach a true middle-ground in the templar vs mage conflict, the nature of the CIRCLES has to change, not just the leadership of the templars.

Which is more what I meant.

EDIT:  And I just have to say this, your avatar is awesome.  I heart Zanatos.

Modifié par MorningBird, 16 mars 2011 - 01:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

MorningBird wrote...
While agree with you that Meredith could have been ousted, in order to reach a true middle-ground in the templar vs mage conflict, the nature of the CIRCLES has to change, not just the leadership of the templars.

Which is more what I meant.

EDIT:  And I just have to say this, your avatar is awesome.  I heart Zanatos.

I know and like I said, the solution I propose is to deal with the immediate problem. But I believe that mages, templars, nobles and common people collaborating together to resist a common enemy can be used as a staging ground for structural reform, if under the right leadership that would provide unity and continuity (as in, not have someone coming later and reversing the process).

Not an easy task for sure, but I think it was doable. If Anders didn't do what he did, of course. 

And thanks. Xanatos is uber awesome

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 01:19 .

[vigna]

kylecouch wrote...

vigna wrote...

Veronica Ward wrote...

But in the DA world Andraste's ashes cured people who were being killed by demons? How is that lying or deceit? every mage you encountered was a blood mage...honestly, I had  a hard time not siding with meredith. If she wasn't such a cow and I wasn't romancing merrill i would've slaughtered the kirkwall mages without hesitation.


Seriously, every other mage you met was possesed.

It is also heavily implied that Andraste was in fact a mage, possibly an abomination herself (much like Anders) It stands to reason (In the land of dragons and magical pantaloons) that her ashes might hold some residual power.

What about the characters that aren't mages that do horrible things all on their own without a
demon whispering in thier ears. Isabella stands out to me and she's on your team! Meredith was not a "cow", she was a tyrant using her position to justify it.

The Grand Cleric should have picked the wrong side from my perspective so she got what she deserved.
If you sit back and maintain the status quo, when that status quo is dehumanizing and exploiting a group of people for circumstances beyond thier control. . . well you reap what you sow.

You could be right about Andraste..or she could be chosen by the Maker, and the fade beings are just generally evil or at minimum self serving and selfish..I dunno. that seems unclear since beings like Justice exist.

I know the templars are generally jerks as are many people in game. I sided with the mages begrudingly, because i didn't like people being judged as  a whole instead of as individulas. the mages in the game were horrible for the most part-no matter their excuse they took the easy way out of their suffering. The Templars were no better with their  strong arm tactics and blind judgement and duty.

One of the problems or great things (depending on your personality) about the game was that every decision was based in gray areas, and Hawk had to jump to a side that wasn't without their own faults. The companion quests were also many times like this. Fenris wanted to kill everyone, and couldn't move on without hate.  Anders was going insane because of Justice, and his judgement suffered. Merrill and the keeper were both wrong, Isabella was very wrong, but was doing it out of self-preservation.  Aveline questioned herself too much, and was sometimes weak without giving her a push. Sebastion put his needs before the needs of his people.
Varric seemed the only normal person without too many glowing faults.

Please explain to me how the Keeper was wrong? She was correct...Merrill did not understand the dangers and failed to listen to someone who did no matter how much she was warned. Merrill was nothing but a thick headed fool who refused to be wrong. The Keeper...finally realizeing Merrill would never see reason...decided to save Merrill from herself out of love for her...defending her like a mother would her child...which is indeed her only mistake...which might be what you mean. Because Merrill should have paid for that mistake herself due to her arrogance regarding the issue.

That is mostly what I meant. The Keeper could have possibly found another way as well. Unless I was hearing wrong and that was for sure the only possible way at all. seemed like my team took that demon down pretty quick.

[TheRevanchist]

Right before Anders makes the most moronic move in history...My Hawke and Orsino was talking some sense into Meredith. They are adament about the position of "You would lable all of us as monsters, but that is NOT SO!" Meredith in turn...with a look of regret replys "I know and it pains me to do it, but if you cannot offer another solution I must do what is nessasary." And lo and behold...before the third solution can be offered (KoP has the right of it) Anders goes off on a crazy binge and shatters what little reasoning the mages were able to build in her head. The thing is...like someone else said...NO ONE supported Anders...NO ONE. First Enchanter did not, Hawke did not, Meredith surely did not and I doubt Elithina would have either. Anders was alone in what he wanted. In fact I bet the only reason the other Circles even revolted was because of the Mage Slaughter that occured at The Gallows as a result rather then Anders "making a statement".

If Meredith was delt with the whole slaughter would have been avoided. Because as Cullen (of all people) shows...he knows what it really means to be a Templar...he would have assumed Command and not only protected people from the mages...but protected the mages from the wrath of the people like Meredith said. Besides it quite clear that most of the remaining Templars did not support Meredith...because when Cullen finally stood up to her...where were they? She stood alone. And if you side with the Templars...he and others act agaisnt her direct order when they find two regular mages hideing in the courtyard and spare them rather then Annul them as she commands. Which she took with great disgust since Hawke was the one who suggested they be spared. Cullen was doing his duty as a Templar...he was protecting innocent mages while killing those who resorted to evil blood magic. If Meredith had simply been removed Annulment would have never been declared at all most likely. Which in my opinion would have halted all the madness right there...possibly long enough for the changes that was needed. There is no jusification for Anders actions...none. The situation could have been salvaged as long as Meredith was deposed (and Anders didn't 9/11 the Chantry).