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Anders did the right thing! I was positively surprised.


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#176
TheRevanchist

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vigna wrote...
That is mostly what I meant. The Keeper could have possibly found another way as well. Unless I was hearing wrong and that was for sure the only possible way at all. seemed like my team took that demon down pretty quick.


From how I understood where was no other way...which is why she kept trying to get Merrill to abandon the foolish notion...because there was no way for it have a happy ending. Merrill was too arrogant to accept this fact and now has to live her life with the pain she caused to both herself and her clan. (Provided to do that quest that is)

#177
JulianoV

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@KnightofPhoenix: I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that the Chantry was pretty much bound to send in troops to seize control and probably "solve" the mage problem, that was, at that point, pretty much widespread. Anyways, I have a barely functional memory and you're probably right.

But I do believe a tranquility mass execution was in order any way. Mages were hiding in the nooks and crannies of the town, trying to escape, trying to leave, trying to help friends escape. It had become a huge prison and the hatred for the templars was already widespread among the magi. They ARE a threat, even if I somewhat sympathize. Tales of Blood Magic resistances are, if not rampant, widely available for the willing ears, and the impasse would last forever at that point.

Magi wouldn't be able to forget the tight, unfair grip the templars held on them for those long years, and the escape attempts and attacks on templars would go on until the Chantry or the Order itself would just give the ultimate order to tranquilize all mages and get it over with. If one took into consideration the willingness of the majority of the Order to stand aside and enjoy the fruits of Meredith's power hunger, one could almost say for certain that they'd be willing to seize control of the City itself, once the Mage menace was dealt with.

Anders was hard pressed to take action, he knew of Meredith's proposal of mass tranquilization, he knew of Leliana's investigation, he knew of the Chantry preparing to move into, he knew of the ever-growing power of Meredith and he knew of the Grand Cleric's passive stance.

I would agree taking out Meredith would be a much better solution, if not for having a tough time accpeting that a significant amount of templars were actually against her. We're talking about people that since an early age are raised to fear and loathe mages. Every new tranquil means a little bit of, ahem, tranquility, for every templar out there. It IS the most convenient solution, and one I find hard to believe most templars wouldn't be willing to abide for.

Meredith went completely overboard and ignored her institutional duties for at least 3 years without significant opposition. As I said, the Order only went "oh, ok, this might not be that great of a situation here" when she went balls-to-the-wall psycho, high-pitched laugh and all.

What I mean to say is that I understand Anders' actions. The longer he waited the dimmer the chances were for mages. He didn't want to just stop Meredith's hunger for power to see her replaced by another power-hungry templar, this time with a Chantry army to support them.

He never set out for peace, he set out for freedom. Only thing annoying me is how categorical people seem to be, dismissing him as a "damm terrorist" while condoning mass execution. He IS a murderer, he IS a traitor and he IS careless. What he is NOT is neither a terrorist, for not doing what he did to instill fear, rather to incite his own and MAYBE get back at a representative of HIS own church that stood idly before an aberrational misconduct of someone under her influence, nor an idiot/retard, for he knew exactly what he was doing, the extent of his action, and how urgent it was, given the ever growing siege on the freedom of the mages. The grip may have loosened, but by then, any chance of REAL freedom would've been lost.

#178
Dean_the_Young

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Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?

#179
JulianoV

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By the way, on no one agreeing with Anders, Meredith was a crazed templar, ORsino was the LEADER of the order that made sure mages had no FREEDOM, which is what he ultimately wanted for magi, Hawke has no personality other than the one you determine for him and Elthina, if she ever had any opinion, never did much to make it affect, for better or worse, the world crumbling around her.

I can't believe I'm the only one annoyed at her "oh, Petrice, you... Naughty girl, going around forcing the warring race in our land into killing hundreds of innocents", and the "the town would know what is best, if Meredith is in power it's because she should be in power, otherwise anyone else would take it from her". The first one annoys me the most, and though one may expect some neutrality and "whatever comes" mentality from a woman of the cloth, she's the freaking Grand Cleric, not the fat-bellied priest of a quaint little mountain town.

#180
Darian Tylmare

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Before Anders blew up the chantry it was a problem for the circle and templar order in Kirkwall. But in this monet the world changed because like he said nobody can be neutral now.
He didn't bring freedom or hope, the only thing he brought was war which stands on a small change of liberating a (maybe too) powerful minority.
In the end I did side with the mages because oppression is wrong, heck I even spared Anders life because he was one of the friends of my Hawke, but still, he didn't bring freedom, he brough a fight.

#181
TJPags

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?



Shhhh . . .don't confuse people convinced of Templar abuse with silly little facts.

It remains my impression that the source of the unrest, the source of the many rumors of widespead Templar abuse of mages, is Anders himself.

Anyone who thinks that man didn't have an agenda, or just came up with the whole "let's have a revolution!!!" idea right before the end of the game, is missing something, IMO.

#182
JulianoV

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?


Yepper. Forgot about that. Good point.

Then again, she kind of changed entirely, going all crazy-like in the 3 years Anders had to endure watching her grow in power.

But yeah, you're absolutely right. It does relativize my notion of the imminent mass execution. If only I could remember what she was saying prior to Anders going "HEY, LOOK AT ME, I'M A-BLOWING UP THE CHANTRY AND DIPLOMACY".

#183
Clover Rider

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TJPags wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?



Shhhh . . .don't confuse people convinced of Templar abuse with silly little facts.

It remains my impression that the source of the unrest, the source of the many rumors of widespead Templar abuse of mages, is Anders himself.

Anyone who thinks that man didn't have an agenda, or just came up with the whole "let's have a revolution!!!" idea right before the end of the game, is missing something, IMO.

Did New Anders kill Old Anders?:?

#184
Dante Angelo

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I don't think Anders( if that is his real name) did the right thing. In fact I think he made it worse for mages. Now if he blew up the templar headquarters well that's a different story. I would've high fived him if he did that.But instead he blew up the chantry and everyone inside it. Thanks a lot Anders. How would he feel if he found out later that the chantry was full of precious, defenseless, newborn kittens.

#185
Dante Angelo

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Some Geth wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?



Shhhh . . .don't confuse people convinced of Templar abuse with silly little facts.

It remains my impression that the source of the unrest, the source of the many rumors of widespead Templar abuse of mages, is Anders himself.

Anyone who thinks that man didn't have an agenda, or just came up with the whole "let's have a revolution!!!" idea right before the end of the game, is missing something, IMO.

Did New Anders kill Old Anders?:?

Yes, yes he did

#186
TJPags

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Dante Angelo wrote...

I don't think Anders( if that is his real name) did the right thing. In fact I think he made it worse for mages. Now if he blew up the templar headquarters well that's a different story. I would've high fived him if he did that.But instead he blew up the chantry and everyone inside it. Thanks a lot Anders. How would he feel if he found out later that the chantry was full of precious, defenseless, newborn kittens.


He'd clearly think the kittens were Templar agents, designed and trained to spy on mages.

#187
KnightofPhoenix

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JulianoV wrote...

@KnightofPhoenix: I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that the Chantry was pretty much bound to send in troops to seize control and probably "solve" the mage problem, that was, at that point, pretty much widespread. Anyways, I have a barely functional memory and you're probably right.


Leliana said no such thing. She said that the Chantry is seriously consdering the option, and for good reason. If Meredith is removed, but the situation is kept under control and the Templars and Chantry kept in place, I do not think the Chantry will be inclined to do it. Especially since apparently, Orlais is having a dispute with Ferelden. Who is going to man the Exalted Marches, if the Chantry's "sister" Orlais is too busy fighting somewhere else?

But I do believe a tranquility mass execution was in order any way. Mages were hiding in the nooks and crannies of the town, trying to escape, trying to leave, trying to help friends escape. It had become a huge prison and the hatred for the templars was already widespread among the magi. They ARE a threat, even if I somewhat sympathize. Tales of Blood Magic resistances are, if not rampant, widely available for the willing ears, and the impasse would last forever at that point.


The situation had not degenerated to utter chaos yet. What Anders did led to that. I think, if the mages and Templars and normal civil authorities collaborated under the right leadership, that the process could have been reversed.

Meredith and perhaps Orsino however, needed to be removed (or weakened). They were part of the problem.

Anders was hard pressed to take action, he knew of Meredith's proposal of mass tranquilization


Meredith rejected the proposal. The Grand Cleric also rejected the proposal.
She did use tranquilization more liberally yes, but she was not planning to tranquilize all mages.

We're talking about people that since an early age are raised to fear and loathe mages. Every new tranquil means a little bit of, ahem, tranquility, for every templar out there. It IS the most convenient solution, and one I find hard to believe most templars wouldn't be willing to abide for.


If someone like Cullen, Cullen, is skeptical of Meredith ever since Act 2 (which is early, as **** starts to hit the fan after Act 2), then yes, I believe that a significant amount of Templars could have stood against Meredith.

Meredith went completely overboard and ignored her institutional duties for at least 3 years without significant opposition. As I said, the Order only went "oh, ok, this might not be that great of a situation here" when she went balls-to-the-wall psycho, high-pitched laugh and all.


Because there was no effective leadership to rally an opposition. Because Hawke was too lazy in those 3 years not taking advantage of the fact that he is the Champion of Kirkwall.

What I mean to say is that I understand Anders' actions.


I understand them too. And I even sympathise a bit (and that's the most reckless people with no plan at all can hope to get from me). But I am not convinced that war was inevitable.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 02:00 .


#188
Clover Rider

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Dante Angelo wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?



Shhhh . . .don't confuse people convinced of Templar abuse with silly little facts.

It remains my impression that the source of the unrest, the source of the many rumors of widespead Templar abuse of mages, is Anders himself.

Anyone who thinks that man didn't have an agenda, or just came up with the whole "let's have a revolution!!!" idea right before the end of the game, is missing something, IMO.

Did New Anders kill Old Anders?:?

Yes, yes he did

Why must the good ones die:crying:.

#189
Dante Angelo

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TJPags wrote...

Dante Angelo wrote...

I don't think Anders( if that is his real name) did the right thing. In fact I think he made it worse for mages. Now if he blew up the templar headquarters well that's a different story. I would've high fived him if he did that.But instead he blew up the chantry and everyone inside it. Thanks a lot Anders. How would he feel if he found out later that the chantry was full of precious, defenseless, newborn kittens.


He'd clearly think the kittens were Templar agents, designed and trained to spy on mages.

I thought kittens were templar agents??

#190
Dante Angelo

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Some Geth wrote...

Dante Angelo wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?



Shhhh . . .don't confuse people convinced of Templar abuse with silly little facts.

It remains my impression that the source of the unrest, the source of the many rumors of widespead Templar abuse of mages, is Anders himself.

Anyone who thinks that man didn't have an agenda, or just came up with the whole "let's have a revolution!!!" idea right before the end of the game, is missing something, IMO.

Did New Anders kill Old Anders?:?

Yes, yes he did

Why must the good ones die:crying:.

Because the order dictates

#191
Clover Rider

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Dante Angelo wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Dante Angelo wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?



Shhhh . . .don't confuse people convinced of Templar abuse with silly little facts.

It remains my impression that the source of the unrest, the source of the many rumors of widespead Templar abuse of mages, is Anders himself.

Anyone who thinks that man didn't have an agenda, or just came up with the whole "let's have a revolution!!!" idea right before the end of the game, is missing something, IMO.

Did New Anders kill Old Anders?:?

Yes, yes he did

Why must the good ones die:crying:.

Because the order dictates

But I want him back:unsure:.

#192
KnightofPhoenix

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Some Geth wrote...
But I want him back:unsure:.


Ser Pounce-a-lot can ressurect people.

In fact I think a major reason why Anders started to go nuts is because he was deprived of Ser Pounce-a-lot, the voice of reason and moderation.

#193
Ninja Mage

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 What he did was awful, and I completely thought he was crazy. But I knew he was a very troubled man, and i loved him, so I could not kill him. Sebastian was pissed though he was like " I WILL FIND ANDERS AND SHOW HIM TRUE JUSTICE!"

And I was like " DO NOT INTERFERE SEBASTIAN!"

And he was like,' I WILL KILL YOUR PRECIOUS ANDERS"

so I'm kinda..shocked..right now

#194
Lucy Glitter

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Anders was always a good guy. He was just a sleaze, and came off as having bent morals.

#195
Clover Rider

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Some Geth wrote...
But I want him back:unsure:.


Ser Pounce-a-lot can ressurect people.

In fact I think a major reason why Anders started to go nuts is because he was deprived of Ser Pounce-a-lot, the voice of reason and moderation.

Now see I can get that if I lost my cat I think I would go crazy and kill tons:innocent:.

#196
Dante Angelo

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Some Geth wrote...
But I want him back:unsure:.

BUT THE ORDER DICTATES!!!!

#197
JulianoV

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TJPags wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?



Shhhh . . .don't confuse people convinced of Templar abuse with silly little facts.

It remains my impression that the source of the unrest, the source of the many rumors of widespead Templar abuse of mages, is Anders himself.

Anyone who thinks that man didn't have an agenda, or just came up with the whole "let's have a revolution!!!" idea right before the end of the game, is missing something, IMO.


That would be a shame, I tend to enjoy silly little facts, and most of the time I do not to get easily confused. 

I'm quite certain Anders was meaning to do something drastic from the very beggining. He knew himself he was a liability and spend the whole game being all emo saying you shouldn't be so nice to him, that he would only break your dreams, yadda-yadda. 

I'll be perfectly honest here, most of my sympathy comes from Justice. I just can't easily accept the fact that by killing Anders I'll just release a Vengeance Justice on the Fade, not after enjoying the character so much in Awakening.  Anders, he went from a flamboyant careless prancing dude to an emo complainy-pants.

The magi, however, ARE oppressed, and the templars went way overboard on Kirkwall. Anders did not measure words when he said he wanted to see the mages free. Unless his plan was to escape each and every one of them until there were 100 templars around a single scared mage 24/7, I don't see any other way to achieve this than through a revolution.

Magic is dangerous. Compromising one's humanity in order to contain a danger is a danger in itself. Turning people into potatoes because they don't accept being taken away for an unvoluntary crime is not a nice thing. One can try and measure how much of a necessary evil it is, but it is not a good thing.

Anders gave the magi a fighting chance. They rallied under the image of one of them that was not willing to accept this pathetic reality that's imposed on them. I believe developers handled the mages poorly by going "HA, TAKE THAT, THEY WERE ALL SUPER EVIL ALL ALONG AND YOU'RE AN IDIOT FOR LISTENING TO REASON AND BASIC HUMAN DIGNITY VALUES" after presenting them as poor animals in a cage.

Duality was lost when one could barely remember the many mages that were completely at a loss running around refusing to cede to the temptation screaming at their ears knowing at any point a templar could take them away during the confusion in the streets.

Instead we're given a bunch of blood mages cutting themselves like it's super fun and spreading havoc. I totally understand the preference for templars, but I'm trying to present a counterpoint that's a bit more enticing than "but Anders is sexy" in order to get something better than "Anders is a dumb moron".

The story deserves better, at least on their forums. Silly little facts notwithstanding.

#198
TJPags

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Ninja Mage wrote...



 What he did was awful, and I completely thought he was crazy. But I knew he was a very troubled man, and i loved him, so I could not kill him. Sebastian was pissed though he was like " I WILL FIND ANDERS AND SHOW HIM TRUE JUSTICE!"

And I was like " DO NOT INTERFERE SEBASTIAN!"

And he was like,' I WILL KILL YOUR PRECIOUS ANDERS"

so I'm kinda..shocked..right now


Don't worry about Sebastian - he'll wake up tomorrow and change his mind again.

"I don't want to be a Priest!!"

"Hey, I like this being a Priest thing!!!"

"No, I must leave and avenge my family and rule my people!!!"

" I must remain with the Grand Cleric!!"

"I must leave the Chantry and help my people!!"

"I must raise an army and hunt down Anders!!!"

"I must have a sandwich!!!"

#199
Clover Rider

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Dante Angelo wrote...

Some Geth wrote...
But I want him back:unsure:.

BUT THE ORDER DICTATES!!!!

I don't care=].

#200
Sabariel

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?


And yet Harrowed Mages were lobotomized anyway... and not just by the crazy Templar. Curious...