1411 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRevanchist]

Sabariel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?

And yet Harrowed Mages were lobotomized anyway... and not just by the crazy Templar. Curious...

*cough cough* Lyrium Idol of mysterious origin *cough*

[Darian Tylmare]

Sabariel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?

And yet Harrowed Mages were lobotomized anyway... and not just by the crazy Templar. Curious...

But there was a awful lot of blood mages in the Kirkwall circle.
Not trying to sound cheesy or anything but the codex often enough states that one blood mage or demon is a eal danger for a whole city (Unless you are Hawke or the Warden and slaughter them by the dozen), but Spock says in Star Trek movie 2(?): "The welbeing of many is more important than the wellbeing of one or few."
There are far less mages than avarage dudes around and the mages could easily hold the majority like cattle (Just look up what is said about Tevinter). So it may not be the best way to lobotomize them but for the majority of Teads it's the most sensible.

[Sabariel]

kylecouch wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?

And yet Harrowed Mages were lobotomized anyway... and not just by the crazy Templar. Curious...

*cough cough* Lyrium Idol of mysterious origin *cough*

Karl was lobotomized before the idol is even discovered.

[TJPags]

JulianoV wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?

Shhhh . . .don't confuse people convinced of Templar abuse with silly little facts.

It remains my impression that the source of the unrest, the source of the many rumors of widespead Templar abuse of mages, is Anders himself.

Anyone who thinks that man didn't have an agenda, or just came up with the whole "let's have a revolution!!!" idea right before the end of the game, is missing something, IMO.

That would be a shame, I tend to enjoy silly little facts, and most of the time I do not to get easily confused. 

I'm quite certain Anders was meaning to do something drastic from the very beggining. He knew himself he was a liability and spend the whole game being all emo saying you shouldn't be so nice to him, that he would only break your dreams, yadda-yadda. 

I'll be perfectly honest here, most of my sympathy comes from Justice. I just can't easily accept the fact that by killing Anders I'll just release a Vengeance Justice on the Fade, not after enjoying the character so much in Awakening.  Anders, he went from a flamboyant careless prancing dude to an emo complainy-pants.

The magi, however, ARE oppressed, and the templars went way overboard on Kirkwall. Anders did not measure words when he said he wanted to see the mages free. Unless his plan was to escape each and every one of them until there were 100 templars around a single scared mage 24/7, I don't see any other way to achieve this than through a revolution.

Magic is dangerous. Compromising one's humanity in order to contain a danger is a danger in itself. Turning people into potatoes because they don't accept being taken away for an unvoluntary crime is not a nice thing. One can try and measure how much of a necessary evil it is, but it is not a good thing.

Anders gave the magi a fighting chance. They rallied under the image of one of them that was not willing to accept this pathetic reality that's imposed on them. I believe developers handled the mages poorly by going "HA, TAKE THAT, THEY WERE ALL SUPER EVIL ALL ALONG AND YOU'RE AN IDIOT FOR LISTENING TO REASON AND BASIC HUMAN DIGNITY VALUES" after presenting them as poor animals in a cage.

Duality was lost when one could barely remember the many mages that were completely at a loss running around refusing to cede to the temptation screaming at their ears knowing at any point a templar could take them away during the confusion in the streets.

Instead we're given a bunch of blood mages cutting themselves like it's super fun and spreading havoc. I totally understand the preference for templars, but I'm trying to present a counterpoint that's a bit more enticing than "but Anders is sexy" in order to get something better than "Anders is a dumb moron".

The story deserves better, at least on their forums. Silly little facts notwithstanding.

Hey, I'm absolutely in favor of shades of grey in decision making.  In the real world, things are rarely black and white.  While that can be the case in a game, obviously, I think it makes a BETTER game when choices aren't easy.

I'd have been fine if we had evidence of widespread Templar abuse.  But I didn't see it.

Sure, we heard rumors - and a lot of talk from Anders - about it.  But we didn't see it.

We hear about the imminent Tranquil Solution - but find that it was shot down, by Meredith no less.

We see one small group of crazy Templars - led by the same guy Bethany mentioned in her letter as being scary.  And we kill him.  And not one Templar makes a fuss - in fact, if you talk to Cullen, he says the guy was out of control.

We see Anders Tranquil friend - but are never told what he did to be made Tranquil.  He very well may have deserved it.

We hear about mages being locked in the rooms - yet the streets remain full of insane blood mages attacking us left and right.

We hear Meredith is concerned about mages actions - and virtually every mage we see is a blood mage.

We see Templars meeting with Mages to discuss removing Meredith - which meeting ends with a Blood Mage killing the lead Templar there, and then trying to kill us.

When Bethany was caught and brought to the Circle, I figured it would be a big "you have to fight to rescue your sister" moment.  Instead, we get a letter telling us how happ she is.

I'm not saying people are wrong to have supported mages - it's a valid option, and people who feel strongly that mages shouldn't be stuck in the Circle should side with the mages.  That's fine with me.

I made my initial choice to side with the Templars, though.  I recognized that Meredith had gone bat**** crazy, and figured she'd have to go, but given the widespread insane mage situation, I thought it was the way to go.

I only changed my mind when Anders went BOOM, and Meredith wanted to go with the Right of Annulment, instead of arresting him.  That's when I decided I wasn't going for that, and helped the mages. 

Of course, that only led to Orsino going all insane blood mage, which I think justified my original position, but too late then. 

So, I'm fine with people thinking mages shouldn't be locked up in general.  However, I certainly think the rabid insane blood mage population of Kirkwall needs to be put down like a rabid dog.  And I think those rumors about widespread abuse were started by Anders.

[Pileyourbodies]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

(End game spoilers)


Am i the only one who thinks Anders did the right thing by blowing up the chantry? I mean religion is purposly spreading lies to deceive and control people in the false pretense of bringing hope and peace. Disinformation and lies are evils that goes hand in hand with religion. There is no empirical evidence that the maker is real, therefore brainwashing and manipulating children and weak minded grown ups into this web of lies is evil in nature.

Hold on...in the dragon age setting Magic exists the fade exists there is evidence that a lot of the stuff from the Chantry is correct. Anders is a terrorist who blows up the most reasonable character in the game. Innocents throughout the city die. because of the explosion that litters the city with debris.

[TJPags]

Sabariel wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?

And yet Harrowed Mages were lobotomized anyway... and not just by the crazy Templar. Curious...

*cough cough* Lyrium Idol of mysterious origin *cough*

Karl was lobotomized before the idol is even discovered.

Karl may well have deserved it.  We don't know why he was Tranquiled (Tranquilized?  Whichever).  We do know that he was friends with Anders . . .which is somewhat of an indictment, IMO.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
Karl was lobotomized before the idol is even discovered.

Karl may well have deserved it.  We don't know why he was Tranquiled (Tranquilized?  Whichever).  We do know that he was friends with Anders . . .which is somewhat of an indictment, IMO.

It's mentionned that Meredith is tranquilizing mages, even harrowed ones, who are speaking out against her. That might have been what Karl did. Or it might not. We were not told explicitly what he did, IIRC.
But Meredith apparently is lobotomizing mages for speaking out.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 02:28 .

[Sabariel]

TJPags wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?

And yet Harrowed Mages were lobotomized anyway... and not just by the crazy Templar. Curious...

*cough cough* Lyrium Idol of mysterious origin *cough*

Karl was lobotomized before the idol is even discovered.

Karl may well have deserved it.  We don't know why he was Tranquiled (Tranquilized?  Whichever).  We do know that he was friends with Anders . . .which is somewhat of an indictment, IMO.

See KnightofPhoenix's response. That's basically what I was going to say

Though I will add something: it doesn't matter if he deserved it or not. Making a Harrowed mage Tranquil is still illegal.

Modifié par Sabariel, 16 mars 2011 - 02:32 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
Karl was lobotomized before the idol is even discovered.

Karl may well have deserved it.  We don't know why he was Tranquiled (Tranquilized?  Whichever).  We do know that he was friends with Anders . . .which is somewhat of an indictment, IMO.

It's mentionned that Meredith is tranquilizing mages, even harrowed ones, who are speaking out against her. That might have been what Karl did. Or it might not. We were not told explicitly what he did, IIRC.
But Meredith apparently is lobotomizing mages for speaking out.

No, I'm not sure that's true at all, KOP.

That is the Tranquil Solution.  Which Anders tells us about.  And if you ask Grand Cleric Elfinna about it, she says Meredith is the one who shot it down.  And other than Karl, do we see any other Tranquilled mages?  Does Bethany mention it?  Nope.

It seems there's one rogue Templar threatening and even potentially doing it.  That's about it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
No, I'm not sure that's true at all, KOP.

That is the Tranquil Solution.  Which Anders tells us about.  And if you ask Grand Cleric Elfinna about it, she says Meredith is the one who shot it down.  And other than Karl, do we see any other Tranquilled mages?  Does Bethany mention it?  Nope.

It seems there's one rogue Templar threatening and even potentially doing it.  That's about it.

No. The Tranquil solution is to tranquilize ALL mages, whether they speak out or no (an obvious analogy to the "Final Solution"). Meredith shot that down. But she did lobotomize mages who spoke out. Just not every mage.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 02:37 .

[Darian Tylmare]

There is one more. Meredith's assistent is also a tranquill mage. And some random mages in the gallows say they are tranquill when you walk by.
But there are far more blood mages than tranquill ones you see in the game. I'm wondering if the tranquill mage stories are just propaganda.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
No, I'm not sure that's true at all, KOP.

That is the Tranquil Solution.  Which Anders tells us about.  And if you ask Grand Cleric Elfinna about it, she says Meredith is the one who shot it down.  And other than Karl, do we see any other Tranquilled mages?  Does Bethany mention it?  Nope.

It seems there's one rogue Templar threatening and even potentially doing it.  That's about it.

No. The Tranquil solution is to tranquilize ALL mages, whether they speak out or no (an obvious analogy to the "Final Solution"). Meredith shot that down. But she did lobotomize mages who spoke out. Just not every mage.

Oh?  Who did she tranqulize then?  besides Karl?

[TJPags]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

There is one more. Meredith's assistent is also a tranquill mage. And some random mages in the gallows say they are tranquill when you walk by.
But there are far more blood mages than tranquill ones you see in the game. I'm wondering if the tranquill mage stories are just propaganda.

This is my point.

Anders has an agenda - he thinks mages should be free, he thinks Templars are evil.  He wants mages free of Templars.

I think he started this approach through propoganda.  When it didn't work, he raised the stakes - bomb.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Oh?  Who did she tranqulize then?  besides Karl?

We don't see all of them. But we are told this is what she is doing. Not by Anders.

Could be exagerrated, but I doubt it's completely fabricated lies.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 02:40 .

[Pileyourbodies]

She doesn't. we hear about the idea she does but we don't meet any. Other than her assistant who might have just fail her harrowing the only tranquil mages that appear that weren't there since the start is the one you make if you choose to. This is a bad case of telling but not showing we HEAR about all the tranquil mages being made(From people anti Meredith) but we don't see ANY. we HEAR about mages being locked up but Bethany and Mom were able to visit each other.

[SnakeStrike8]

It's so much fun when people bring modern-day anti-religiousness into fantasy setting, isn't it? How nice, OP, that you approve of Anders blowing up the Chantry more because you dislike religion than because you support mage freedom. Warms my heart.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Oh?  Who did she tranqulize then?  besides Karl?

We don't see all of them. But we are told this is what she is doing. Not by Anders.

Could be exagerrated, but I doubt it's completely fabricated lies.

Can you tell me where or when we are told this?

I don't recall this, and if it's there, I'd like to find it.

Honestly, starting with Act 3, I was really looking for evidence of this abuse that I was hearing about.  I just wasn't actually finding it.  if I was looking in the wrong places, I want to know.

[Sabariel]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

She doesn't. we hear about the idea she does but we don't meet any. Other than her assistant who might have just fail her harrowing the only tranquil mages that appear that weren't there since the start is the one you make if you choose to. This is a bad case of telling but not showing we HEAR about all the tranquil mages being made(From people anti Meredith) but we don't see ANY. we HEAR about mages being locked up but Bethany and Mom were able to visit each other.

There are plenty of Tranquil mages and mages saying how much they hate their lives around the Gallows. I couldn't pass a mage there without them speaking tonelessly or telling me how crappy things were.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sabariel wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?

And yet Harrowed Mages were lobotomized anyway... and not just by the crazy Templar. Curious...

*cough cough* Lyrium Idol of mysterious origin *cough*

Karl was lobotomized before the idol is even discovered.

Karl was also lobotomized by a rogue Templar and his posse who were conspiring in direct violation of Meredith's prohibition of the Tranquil Solution by inventing the causes to apply it.

Not because of Meredith, but in spite of Meredith.

[Pileyourbodies]

But those mages have been there since start of the game. They could be mages that failed their harrowing. From the first year you hear about the guy saying Orsino marks up the potions those mages are there from the start you don't hear about any more that are made. The mages that hate their lives there happen to be ones that were apostates! one of whom was always an evil bloodmage.

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
Karl was lobotomized before the idol is even discovered.

Karl may well have deserved it.  We don't know why he was Tranquiled (Tranquilized?  Whichever).  We do know that he was friends with Anders . . .which is somewhat of an indictment, IMO.

It's mentionned that Meredith is tranquilizing mages, even harrowed ones, who are speaking out against her. That might have been what Karl did. Or it might not. We were not told explicitly what he did, IIRC.
But Meredith apparently is lobotomizing mages for speaking out.

IIRC, that starts in the three years she had the idol, not before.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Oh?  Who did she tranqulize then?  besides Karl?

We don't see all of them. But we are told this is what she is doing. Not by Anders.

Could be exagerrated, but I doubt it's completely fabricated lies.

Can you tell me where or when we are told this?

I don't recall this, and if it's there, I'd like to find it.

Honestly, starting with Act 3, I was really looking for evidence of this abuse that I was hearing about.  I just wasn't actually finding it.  if I was looking in the wrong places, I want to know.

I do not recalled exactly. But from what I remember, tranquils and mages in the gallows said it. Maybe Thrask also said, IIRC.

It was hinted at. Not shown explicitly however. But I wouln't be surprised. Meredith was getting more and more repressive.

EDIT:
@ Dean
And yes, I think it's after Act 2.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 02:56 .

[Sabariel]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

But those mages have been there since start of the game. They could be mages that failed their harrowing. From the first year you hear about the guy saying Orsino marks up the potions those mages are there from the start you don't hear about any more that are made. The mages that hate their lives there happen to be ones that were apostates! one of whom was always an evil bloodmage.

Mages who fail the Harrowing are killed, as in dead. They wouldn't be hanging around the Gallows. There are unhappy mages, not just apostates, from day one all over the game. Meredith was nuts before the idol. The idol just made her... nutsier.

[Ninja Mage]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

It's so much fun when people bring modern-day anti-religiousness into fantasy setting, isn't it? How nice, OP, that you approve of Anders blowing up the Chantry more because you dislike religion than because you support mage freedom. Warms my heart.

Lol

Well if my boyfriend was an athiest and he blew up a catholic church because he said the Church was evil and a spirit was inside his body I would be...shocked lol

[TJPags]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

But those mages have been there since start of the game. They could be mages that failed their harrowing. From the first year you hear about the guy saying Orsino marks up the potions those mages are there from the start you don't hear about any more that are made. The mages that hate their lives there happen to be ones that were apostates! one of whom was always an evil bloodmage.

Indeed.  Tranquil mages are selling things.  All game.  Remember the Wonders of Thedas?  Another tranquil shopkeeper.

And captured apostates who hate the Circle - or even a mage raised in the Circle who hates it there - is hardly evidence of Templar abuse.  Anders hated being in the Circle.