174 réponses à ce sujet

[Milan92]

Too big of a deal is made of Bethany's unhappiness as a Warden I think. I wonder if the impression that she remains miserable is coming from players who haven't completed the game with Bethany as a Warden, because she comes around in the end game. This particularly true if you play the Legacy DLC late in the game (after she is a Warden) and have her in the party. In the DLC and the end game she has come to terms with being a Grey Warden, accepts it, and forgives Hawke.

 

Could be. I must admit that I have never experienced her as a warden; because the way people made it sound always turned me off.

[blaidfiste]

Grumpy Warden Bethany can kiss my butt.  She wanted in on that expedition to escape the Kirkwall Templars.  

 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Too big of a deal is made of Bethany's unhappiness as a Warden I think. I wonder if the impression that she remains miserable is coming from players who haven't completed the game with Bethany as a Warden, because she comes around in the end game. This particularly true if you play the Legacy DLC late in the game (after she is a Warden) and have her in the party. In the DLC and the end game she has come to terms with being a Grey Warden, accepts it, and forgives Hawke.

 

She may forgive Hawke but she's still a much more bitter person.

[Jaison1986]

I dislike this warden idea. People pretty much make her life miserable just for drama's sake. None of this outcomes are good ones, but the circle is the lesser evil. Life there is far from perfect, but I think Bethany hapiness is more important then adding angst to Hawke's life. As an circle mage, Bethany has an chance to start over. While as an warden, she will be forever bound to her life of fighting darkspawn.

[Xilizhra]

I dislike this warden idea. People pretty much make her life miserable just for drama's sake. None of this outcomes are good ones, but the circle is the lesser evil. Life there is far from perfect, but I think Bethany hapiness is more important then adding angst to Hawke's life. As an circle mage, Bethany has an chance to start over. While as an warden, she will be forever bound to her life of fighting darkspawn.

Bethany's communications when imprisoned sound... off. The Bethany I knew in Act 1 would never have glossed over her compatriots' plight as much as she seems to in the Circle, as seen in some of her dialogues with Anders; it's like the place has slowly been killing her spirit, possibly without her quite noticing.

[Undead Han]

She may forgive Hawke but she's still a much more bitter person.

 

She isn't bitter in the finale if you bring her along, or in the Legacy DLC. She follows a similar character arc as Duncan. She starts off resentfing the fact that she is a Grey Warden, but doesn't end that way.

 

 

 

Jaison1986, on 01 Jul 2014 - 9:24 PM, said:

 

I dislike this warden idea. People pretty much make her life miserable just for drama's sake. None of this outcomes are good ones, but the circle is the lesser evil. Life there is far from perfect, but I think Bethany hapiness is more important then adding angst to Hawke's life. As an circle mage, Bethany has an chance to start over. While as an warden, she will be forever bound to her life of fighting darkspawn.

 

In the Circle she is forever imprisoned, and unlike with the Wardens there is always the risk that some over zealous Templar will run her through or make her tranquil. Warden mages are not only free to practice magic as they see fit, but also are permitted to practice magic the rest of the Thedas forbids so long as it seen as serving a greater good. And the Wardens don't care a fig for Bethany's previous apostate status.

 

Neither option is a bed of roses and each carries its own risks. It is a choice between freedom and the taint and constant war with the darkspawn or a life of monk-like seclusion with every aspect of your life controlled and policed by Templars who could at any time, decide you or the entire Tower are more trouble than you are worth.

 

Personally if this setting were real and I were a mage, I'd gladly flee a Circle to join the Wardens. Better to live short and well then long and chained.

[Jaison1986]

Bethany's communications when imprisoned sound... off. The Bethany I knew in Act 1 would never have glossed over her compatriots' plight as much as she seems to in the Circle, as seen in some of her dialogues with Anders; it's like the place has slowly been killing her spirit, possibly without her quite noticing.

 

And the wardens don't? If you want to see something killing her spirit, you just need to make her one of them.

[Dabrikishaw]

I would rather make Bethany a Warden instead of leaving her behind to be a circle mage personally.  Better fighting the good fight against evil than wasting away at the mercy of the Chantry. Carver I usually leave to die.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

She isn't bitter in the finale if you bring her along, or in the Legacy DLC. She follows a similar character arc as Duncan. She starts off resentfing the fact that she is a Grey Warden, but doesn't end that way.

 

 

 

 

In the Circle she is forever imprisoned, and unlike with the Wardens there is always the risk that some over zealous Templar will run her through or make her tranquil. Warden mages are not only free to practice magic as they see fit, but also are permitted to practice magic the rest of the Thedas forbids so long as it seen as serving a greater good. And the Wardens don't care a fig for Bethany's previous apostate status.

 

Neither option is a bed of roses and each carries its own risks. It is a choice between freedom and the taint and constant war with the darkspawn or a life of monk-like seclusion with every aspect of your life controlled and policed by Templars who could at any time, decide you or the entire Tower are more trouble than you are worth.

 

Personally if this setting were real and I were a mage, I'd gladly flee a Circle to join the Wardens. Better to live short and well then long and chained.

 

Compared to when she first joins the Wardens or when she's rivaled, she's not so bitter. Compared to Circle Bethany she is much more bitter. She's just managed to mostly come to terms with what she sees as a bad situation. In the Circle she doesn't see it as all that bad. She tells Anders straight up "I could pretend to be miserable, but I'm not." It's not really monk like seclusion, she has a lot of friends and still sees her family on occasion. She even says how the templars themselves aren't so bad.

 

The Grey Warden's is a much greater prison for her than the Circle is. Grey Wardens are forever tainted. She could be free of Circle, she can never be free of the darkspawn.

[sgy0003]

To put it simply,

 

Bethany is nice, but a bit too bland

 

Carver seem to have more character, but constantly bitches about everything

[KC_Prototype]

Bethany, the ****** don't lie  But I like Carver as well because the love-hate relationship he had with my mage Hawke was a cool spin to the Hawke brothers tale. I liked Bethany more because she looked up to you and loved you soo much, but Carver just was tired of living in my shadow.

[KC_Prototype]

With regards to Bethany, the thing that kinda bugs me about her is that she doesn't really get a happy ending. She either dies, becomes this angst-ridden mess as a Warden, or a obedient servant of the Chantry in the Circle up unto the point that Anders gets his Hezbollah Merit Badge. And am I the only one who feels how screwed up it is that she prefers the medieval gulag run by a gang of religious fanatics and sexual predators over a group of badass heroes of legend?

Just me?

Does she?

[Elite Midget]

Eh, I always take Bethany along because she's an Apostate and the whole point of the Deep Roads Expedition is to not only get rich but to get Bethany out of Kirkwall for awhile. Once the Hawke's were rich and powerful again it wouldn't matter if Bethany is an Apostate, the Templars wouldn't be able to touch her. Like how the Templars couldn't touch Anders or Merrill when they ended up in your inner influential circle.

 

Besides, if you Friendship 100% with Bethany she seemed to accept her Warden status by the end of Dragon Age II or at least she did in my playthrough even when I sided with the Templars. Legacy gives her more Warden development as well.

 

I generally like Bethany better than Carver because Carver is too much like your Uncle and tends to blame stuff on Hawke and hates when Hawke acts the Hero as Carver wants to be the Hero.

 

So I leave him behind. The rational to that is because Carver isn't an Apostate and if Hawke died in the Expedition than Carver could still carry on the line.

 

Besides, Hawke doing Carver's dance to cheer up Grey Warden Bethany during Legacy is both adorable and hilarious.

[Xilizhra]

Compared to when she first joins the Wardens or when she's rivaled, she's not so bitter. Compared to Circle Bethany she is much more bitter. She's just managed to mostly come to terms with what she sees as a bad situation. In the Circle she doesn't see it as all that bad. She tells Anders straight up "I could pretend to be miserable, but I'm not." It's not really monk like seclusion, she has a lot of friends and still sees her family on occasion. She even says how the templars themselves aren't so bad.

 

The Grey Warden's is a much greater prison for her than the Circle is. Grey Wardens are forever tainted. She could be free of Circle, she can never be free of the darkspawn.

She's clearly not worried at all about what's happening to her fellows there, then, which I find deplorable. And the taint isn't such a terrible prison if you know how to handle it.

[Dave of Canada]

Bethany is a non-entity that does nothing but exist, she has little character and I don't like her at all.

Carver on the other hand was pretty great and filled with personality, adding more to the party dynamic.

[Elite Midget]

Bethany is a non-entity that does nothing but exist, she has little character and I don't like her at all.

Carver on the other hand was pretty great and filled with personality, adding more to the party dynamic.

 

They both have personality and they get plenty of development. The game also seems to flow far better if Hawke isn't a Mage with Bethany and his father serving as his connection to Magic. 

 

If you do Legacy than Bethany even comments that your father didn't want any of his children to have magic but he still ended up having Bethany. She also expresses sadness that Hawke and Carver were their father's little soldiers and that she couldn't do a lot of stuff because she was a Mage and was constantly being trained to control her magic.

 

Bethany also exhibits what it's like to be an Apostate Mage, through her dialogue, far better than a Mage Hawke who doesn't seem too concerned over it even in Act 1. Heck, Carver is freaking out more over you being a penniless Apostate Mage!

She's clearly not worried at all about what's happening to her fellows there, then, which I find deplorable. And the taint isn't such a terrible prison if you know how to handle it.

Being a Grey Warden is a prison. Bethany is cursed to constant nightmares, she will have a short life no matter what she does, she's taken away from her family(Not even allowed social calls), will receive no great wealth or fame for what she must do, constant forced incursions into the Deep Roads, the Darkspawn will also actively hunt her and if she doesn't die when the Calling happens than she will end up like Varius who unsettled her a great deal in Legacy. It's also very unlikely that she'll be able to have children or even be allowed as the Order rules her life now and the taint has changed her. Even if she was granted the opportunity for a child, and can even have one, she would be hard pressed to find love in any form due to being a Warden.

 

And if she dies? She will only get a vigil, if even that, and she has no claim to the Hawke fortune if her sibling died at any point. That's why King Alistair has kept his Warden stuff a secret and it has been brushed off as a mere rumor as by all rights he shouldn't even be ruling due to being a Warden. As the duty of the Warden takes priority and when you become a Warden you kiss your old life behind. That and the people wouldn't react well to having a Warden officially rule over them as many fear them and view them with constant suspicion.

 

Basically being a Warden isn't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a painful life where all you may do is your duty and/or die.

[Mykel54]

My prefered choice is having Bethany and letting her go the circle. This does several things:

 

1. A big FU to Malcolm, you are a noble like you should have been, and bethany is in the circle like she should have

 

2. It makes hawke care about what happens to the mages, not about mages in general, but specifically about the mages inside the circle of kirkwall. There is plenty of room for good roleplaying there that is otherwise lacking. Your hawke can sympathise with the mages and want to free her sister, or think the circle is fine. If bethany dies or becomes a warden, then there is a huge disconnection when hawke has no reason to care about happens inside the circle: neither anders nor merrill are in there.

 

3. There is a dreadful short list of decent mages in kirkwall. We have many templars, ranging from hardliners to liberals: Alrik-Karras-Meredith-Cullen-Thrask

The mages are like: Grace-Orsino-Alain, there isn´t a lot of examples of circle mages. To be precise, Meredith has Cullen as second in command, and as good all around reasonable templar. Who is the second in command of Orsino, who is also reasonable and shows that not all mages are crazy? There is no one, unless you have circle Bethany. She also sents you a letter about the circle that gives another perspective about it, in a game that is seriously lacking about it - you get Anders rants and some npc banter, and that is it.

 

4. Bethany gets her own harrowing and therefore becomes an overall better and more responsible mage, while a warden bethany won´t have a harrowing and will just focus on combat magic. I like that Bethany keeps her personality and does not do a 180, plus if you want mage freedom then you can always side with the mages at the ending, it still makes sense, and the motivation to protect your sister is a strong one to oppose meredith, much better than: "I barely know you Orsino nor any of your mages, in fact i never set foot inside the circle, but i am risking my life for you anyway"..

[Elite Midget]

If Bethany is sent to the Circle she'll eventually get dragged directly into the DAI war whether she wants to or not and hunted as an Apostate by the zealot Templars without any protection, as the Circle is destroyed and I don't see her sitting out on the war, save other Mages with many using Blood Magic as Hawke wont always be there.

 

It also means that the temptation of Blood Magic will be strong as she would be pushed into desperate life and death situations due to the Templars and watching many of her Mage brethren being slaughtered. I don't think that I would wish that upon her and her going Blood Mage would be a sad fate considering how even "nice" Blood Mages save Merrill(because you can protect her) end up going crazy and insane.

 

Being a Grey Warden is hard, yes, but it also grants her some protection from the Templars who wont openly make war with the Grey Wardens as well when they're fighting a massive war against the Mages and the Qun already. However, there are very extreme zealots within the average zealot group so even with the Grey Warden's protection I can see some Templars losing their cool and making the horrible decision to attack and be slaughtered by Grey Wardens.

 

Whatever the case, I would rather Bethany be amoungst the Grey Wardens, who would see things as Grey and not a Black/White, than a bunch of very angry Mages with many using Blood Magic and seeing nothing wrong with its use.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If Bethany is sent to the Circle she'll eventually get dragged directly into the DAI war whether she wants to or not and hunted as an Apostate by the zealot Templars without any protection, as the Circle is destroyed and I don't see her sitting out on the war, save other Mages with many using Blood Magic as Hawke wont always be there.

 

It also means that the temptation of Blood Magic will be strong as she would be pushed into desperate life and death situations due to the Templars and watching many of her Mage brethren being slaughtered. I don't think that I would wish that upon her and her going Blood Mage would be a sad fate considering how even "nice" Blood Mages save Merrill(because you can protect her) end up going crazy and insane.

 

Being a Grey Warden is hard, yes, but it also grants her some protection from the Templars who wont openly make war with the Grey Wardens as well when they're fighting a massive war against the Mages and the Qun already. However, there are very extreme zealots within the average zealot group so even with the Grey Warden's protection I can see some Templars losing their cool and making the horrible decision to attack and be slaughtered by Grey Wardens.

 

Whatever the case, I would rather Bethany be amoungst the Grey Wardens, who would see things as Grey and not a Black/White, than a bunch of very angry Mages with many using Blood Magic and seeing nothing wrong with its use.

 

Not every mage turns to blood magic to save themselves. She seemed much less inclined than most. Such as those mages who surrendered during the annulment. The closest thing you could say about Bethany herself is that if you side with the templars while she's in the Circle she's sort of party to Orsino's ritual, but even then she didn't know exactly what he was planning.

 

And based on the trailers, I don't think the Warden, Mage or Templar versions of the siblings will be spared from the conflict.

[Elite Midget]

Not every mage turns to blood magic to save themselves. She seemed much less inclined than most. Such as those mages who surrendered during the annulment. The closest thing you could say about Bethany herself is that if you side with the templars while she's in the Circle she's sort of party to Orsino's ritual, but even then she didn't know exactly what he was planning.

 

And based on the trailers, I don't think the Warden, Mage or Templar versions of the siblings will be spared from the conflict.

This isn't normal circumstances and there are many Blood Mages at this point. It's very tempting when Templars have went completely crazy and are hunting all mages on sight. Being a Grey Warden harden Bethany, gives her a great deal of world experience and affords her the Order's protection as the Grey Wardens watch out for each other. You know, outside those crazy traitor ones we fight sometimes.

 

Besides, apparently Alistair's mother cured herself of the taint so there's always hope for Bethany/Carver.

[Xilizhra]

They both have personality and they get plenty of development. The game also seems to flow far better if Hawke isn't a Mage with Bethany and his father serving as his connection to Magic. 

 

If you do Legacy than Bethany even comments that your father didn't want any of his children to have magic but he still ended up having Bethany. She also expresses sadness that Hawke and Carver were their father's little soldiers and that she couldn't do a lot of stuff because she was a Mage and was constantly being trained to control her magic.

 

Bethany also exhibits what it's like to be an Apostate Mage, through her dialogue, far better than a Mage Hawke who doesn't seem too concerned over it even in Act 1. Heck, Carver is freaking out more over you being a penniless Apostate Mage!

Well, Hawke is awesome like that. And having two mage children, to me, makes more sense if two lines with magic have married into each other.

 

 

My prefered choice is having Bethany and letting her go the circle. This does several things:

 

1. A big FU to Malcolm, you are a noble like you should have been, and bethany is in the circle like she should have

 

2. It makes hawke care about what happens to the mages, not about mages in general, but specifically about the mages inside the circle of kirkwall. There is plenty of room for good roleplaying there that is otherwise lacking. Your hawke can sympathise with the mages and want to free her sister, or think the circle is fine. If bethany dies or becomes a warden, then there is a huge disconnection when hawke has no reason to care about happens inside the circle: neither anders nor merrill are in there.

 

3. There is a dreadful short list of decent mages in kirkwall. We have many templars, ranging from hardliners to liberals: Alrik-Karras-Meredith-Cullen-Thrask

The mages are like: Grace-Orsino-Alain, there isn´t a lot of examples of circle mages. To be precise, Meredith has Cullen as second in command, and as good all around reasonable templar. Who is the second in command of Orsino, who is also reasonable and shows that not all mages are crazy? There is no one, unless you have circle Bethany. She also sents you a letter about the circle that gives another perspective about it, in a game that is seriously lacking about it - you get Anders rants and some npc banter, and that is it.

 

4. Bethany gets her own harrowing and therefore becomes an overall better and more responsible mage, while a warden bethany won´t have a harrowing and will just focus on combat magic. I like that Bethany keeps her personality and does not do a 180, plus if you want mage freedom then you can always side with the mages at the ending, it still makes sense, and the motivation to protect your sister is a strong one to oppose meredith, much better than: "I barely know you Orsino nor any of your mages, in fact i never set foot inside the circle, but i am risking my life for you anyway"..

What, you can't choose to save the Circle simply because it's the right thing to do? Because I do. In any case, I think Orsino is a more decent mage, in some ways, than Bethany: he actually gives a damn about what his fellows suffer under.

[Jaison1986]

Well, Hawke is awesome like that. And having two mage children, to me, makes more sense if two lines with magic have married into each other.

 

 

What, you can't choose to save the Circle simply because it's the right thing to do? Because I do. In any case, I think Orsino is a more decent mage, in some ways, than Bethany: he actually gives a damn about what his fellows suffer under.

 

Ok, I just don't take anything you say seriously anymore. The guy that turns on you even if you side with him is better then your sister that aways sticks to you no matter what happens? And yeah, I don't need to choose the circle if Bethany isn't there, there are as much blood mages in the circle as there are crazy templars in Kirkwall. I can see either choice being justified depending on the point of view of the player.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

This isn't normal circumstances and there are many Blood Mages at this point. It's very tempting when Templars have went completely crazy and are hunting all mages on sight. Being a Grey Warden harden Bethany, gives her a great deal of world experience and affords her the Order's protection as the Grey Wardens watch out for each other. You know, outside those crazy traitor ones we fight sometimes.

 

Besides, apparently Alistair's mother cured herself of the taint so there's always hope for Bethany/Carver.

 

Fiona is an ultra rare exception. Possibly the only one in history. It's not something Grey Wardens can hope for. There were plenty of Blood Mages in Kirkwall too. And we don't know what is happening with the Grey Wardens or why, so you can't really claim that she's abosltuely any safer with them.

[KaiserShep]

In any case, I think Orsino is a more decent mage, in some ways, than Bethany: he actually gives a damn about what his fellows suffer under.

 

Yeah, he gives a damn so much that he collects the bodies of the dead mages he claimed to protect and turned into a monster!

 

How you consider him to be in any way better than the unflinchingly loyal Bethany jiggers the imagination. Being concerned about something, in and of itself, is meaningless. What matters is what you do with that, and Orsino was a failure who betrayed his own people.

[KaiserShep]

Personally if this setting were real and I were a mage, I'd gladly flee a Circle to join the Wardens. Better to live short and well then long and chained.

 

I dunno. The decision seems kinda difficult to me, at least from the perspective of someone who knows what being a Warden entails, because Wardens are, for the lack of a better word, f*cked on many levels. And then of course, there's the lovely prospect of possibly being dragged into some deep enclave and being violated by darkspawn to be turned into one of their breeder ghouls if you happen to be female.

 

Of course, in this case, it's not really about which I would prefer for myself, because Hawke is basically shaping this fate for someone else. If it were my sister, I would probably take my chances with the Templars, because I wouldn't want her to be in some neverending struggle with darkspawn, only to die young in some silly suicide ritual.