41 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave666]

One thing that completely baffled me about ME:2 was the introduction of SMG's, and the fact that certain classes couldn't use Assault Rifles, I played ME:1 first years ago and I remember a quote from Ashley that was something like: "Every Marine a rifle, every Rifleman zee gee certified" (Something like that anyway). So Shepard who's N7 (Special ops type of thing) Kinda like the SAS, will most certainly have recieved training in things like Assault rifles reguardless of class! I mean lets face it, even I could use an Assault rifle, (I might not hit anything, but I've never touched a gun in my life) whereas Shepard's a Marine who aparently, because he recieved training with Tech or Biotics somehow forgot to recieve the same training with weapons that EVERY Marine receives? The only thing that would help this make some kind of sense is if you remove the SMG's you suddenly realize just how few weapons there actually are in the game (Talking pre DLC's) So in order to Make it seem like there were more weapons in the game they created a new sub class. 

Thoughts?

[RedCaesar97]

It is just a gameplay mechanic. In ME1, everyone had access to all guns, but could not really use them unless they had the specific weapon talents: All classes started with Pistol training, Soldiers and Vanguards had Shotgun training, Soldiers and Infiltrators started with Sniper Rifles, and only the Soldier started with Assault Rifles. With a bonus talent non-Soldiers could select an additional weapon talent. Note that in ME1, weapons had weapon specific powers: Marksman (Pistols), Carnage (Shotguns), Assassination (Sniper Rifles), and Overkill (Assault Rifles).

In ME2, weapon-specific powers were removed, and they added a protection mechanic, where some powers and weapons were more effective against specific protections. For example: Incineration and Pistols gain a damage bonus against armor, and Overload and Shotguns gain a damage bonus against shields. In ME2, the classes started with the same weapon training (not weapons) they had in ME1: Soldiers start with all weapons; Vanguards start with pistols and shotguns; Infiltrators start with pistols and sniper rifles; and Sentinels, Engineers, and Adepts start with Pistols. SMGs were added so that Sentinels, Engineers, and Adepts started with one weapon that was better against armor (pistols) and one weapon that was better against shields/barriers (SMGs).

So while I agree with you that it does not make sense that all non-Soldier classes do not seemingly know how to use an Assault Rifle until the Collector ship, it is just a gameplay mechanic

[Kronner]

A simple slot system would be best IMHO.

Heavy Weapons - exclusive to Soldier class

Advanced Weapons (Revenant*, Claymore**, Widow***) - take up 2 slots
* Soldier only
** Soldier, Vanguard only
*** Soldier, Infiltrator only

Standard Weapons (all other ARs, SGs and SRs) - take up 1 slot

All classes get one of SMG/Pistol (up to the player) for free.


Soldier - 4 slots + heavy weapons + SMG/Pistol

Vanguard, Infiltrator - 3 slots + SMG/Pistol

Sentinel, Adept, Engineer - 2 slots + SMG/Pistol

Simple, yet much better than ME2's system. Adding more weapons wouldn't make the game easier, but more fun.

Modifié par Kronner, 15 mars 2011 - 04:36 .

[Bozorgmehr]

I agree with Kronner though I do have some reservations regarding Advanced weapons. I don't see why they should be limited to specific classes (my Adept and Engineer appreciate the Claymore) and it isn't a 'better' shotgun compared to the others in terms of killing speed so not really an advanced weapon in that regard.

SR are the worst; non-Soldier/Infiltrators cannot use the Widow and that's the only SR capable of OSOK enemies on Insanity (which is the main point of SR). The only viable option for those classes is the Viper - which is basically a powerful AR with a scope.

Adept should have the choice to use AR/SG/SR + SMG + HP. Or AR/SG/SR + AR/SG/SR. Or Advanced AR/SR/SG + HP/SMG

[Kronner]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

I agree with Kronner though I do have some reservations regarding Advanced weapons. I don't see why they should be limited to specific classes (my Adept and Engineer appreciate the Claymore) and it isn't a 'better' shotgun compared to the others in terms of killing speed so not really an advanced weapon in that regard.

SR are the worst; non-Soldier/Infiltrators cannot use the Widow and that's the only SR capable of OSOK enemies on Insanity (which is the main point of SR). The only viable option for those classes is the Viper - which is basically a powerful AR with a scope.

Adept should have the choice to use AR/SG/SR + SMG + HP. Or AR/SG/SR + AR/SG/SR. Or Advanced AR/SR/SG + HP/SMG

Yeah, in their current form, they are not really better than the rest. But if it was fixed, I'd like to see some unique weapons for the combat classes.

[Ahglock]

Kronner wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

I agree with Kronner though I do have some reservations regarding Advanced weapons. I don't see why they should be limited to specific classes (my Adept and Engineer appreciate the Claymore) and it isn't a 'better' shotgun compared to the others in terms of killing speed so not really an advanced weapon in that regard.

SR are the worst; non-Soldier/Infiltrators cannot use the Widow and that's the only SR capable of OSOK enemies on Insanity (which is the main point of SR). The only viable option for those classes is the Viper - which is basically a powerful AR with a scope.

Adept should have the choice to use AR/SG/SR + SMG + HP. Or AR/SG/SR + AR/SG/SR. Or Advanced AR/SR/SG + HP/SMG

Yeah, in their current form, they are not really better than the rest. But if it was fixed, I'd like to see some unique weapons for the combat classes.

As would I.  Though I'd also like to see unique boosts to adept/engineers powers.  Sort of like when you get weapon training in ME2 adepts or engineers would have a option of instead of pickin gup a new gun, getting a boost to their core powers. 

[Kronner]

Ahglock wrote...

As would I.  Though I'd also like to see unique boosts to adept/engineers powers.  Sort of like when you get weapon training in ME2 adepts or engineers would have a option of instead of pickin gup a new gun, getting a boost to their core powers. 

Or they would be the only classes with access to top tier tech/biotic abilities (e.g. Energy Drain and Reave/Stasis etc.), while the hybrids would not be able to get those top tier abilities.

I'd also add this:
Biotic bonus power available only to: Adept, Vanguard, Sentinel
Tech bonus power available only to: Engineer, Infiltrator, Sentinel

Ammo powers would be available to every class.

Modifié par Kronner, 15 mars 2011 - 06:34 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Kronner wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

As would I.  Though I'd also like to see unique boosts to adept/engineers powers.  Sort of like when you get weapon training in ME2 adepts or engineers would have a option of instead of pickin gup a new gun, getting a boost to their core powers. 

Or they would be the only classes with access to top tier tech/biotic abilities (e.g. Energy Drain and Reave), while the hybrids would not be able to get those top tier abilities.

I'd also add this:
Biotic bonus power available only to: Adept, Vanguard, Sentinel
Tech bonus power available only to: Engineer, Infiltrator, Sentinel

Ammo powers would be available to every class.

Yeah, something similar could be done with powers. Unique power plus 6 biotic power slots for Adept, biotic-hybrids (Vanguard and Sentinels) can select 3 biotic powers (maybe exclude some of the most powerful like Stasis, Dominate and Reave). Vanguards can select 3 combat powers (Sentinel 3 tech) of course.

I like Ahglock's idea of some special gear/equipment that boosts tech/biotic powers for casters (instead of special weapon) - makes perfect sense.

[Dave666]

Thanks guys, I'm glad it wasn't just me that thought it was a little silly. Been reading these forums for absolutely ages, just haven't gotten arround to registering my game til now.

@RedCaesar I realized that it was just a gameplay mechanic, I just thought it was a bloomin' stupid one. What Marine or spec ops would deliberately pick up an SMG when there are AR's sitting in an Armory? lol.

I really like your ideas about classes picking up boosts for their powers instead of Heavy Weapons! If Bioware introduced that it would be Awesome! An Adept would become as our little Volus friend said a 'Biotic God'. hehehe (As you might have guessed, I'm rather fond of the Adept class). I've completed the game on Insanity multiple times, with all classes, but the Adept keeps drawing me back.

I always felt that the Adept was a little light in the old powers retinue. I can see why they limited them, Bioware were obviously struggling with things for the Soldier, I mean? Ammo Powers? Really? lmao
Granted, with Adrenaline Rush as powerful as it is, its and Soldiers having such powerful weapons, its not like they really needed anything else.

I've always felt that Powers like Reave, Slam, Stasis, etc should have been avaliable to the Adept from the start. What with them being Specialists and all that.

I've managed to ramnble off my own point here haven't I?

@ Kronner, the more I think about your idea, the more I like it!

[Alamar2078]

I see the logic of what folks are saying but I don't really mind the current system. If there are changes to ME2 I'd keep it limited:

-- Any class can use  Heavy Weapons, Pistols, and SMGs

-- All classes would get to do weapon training on the Collector Ship [OK it's a stupid reward]. If you train in a weapon you're already trained on you get access to the "uber" weapon of that group.

-- I would make sure each weapon group [including SMG, Pistols, and maybe Heavy Weapons] had an "uber" weapon for that grouping.

-- Soldiers have access to everything [Yes including SMGs]

-- Vanguards would get Shotguns

-- Infiltrators would get Sniper Rifles

-- Sentinels, Adepts, and Engineers get no special love other than above

Modifié par Alamar2078, 16 mars 2011 - 07:04 .

[The Spamming Troll]

i feel like im seeing alot of the topics that i made a while ago, start to pop back up again.

i agree with the OP. if my adepts power slate is not any better then the infiltrators, then why does the infiltrator get more and better guns too? if anything the three caster classes should be the ones with moe guns.

i never understood why the 3 caster classes are delegated to sidearm onloy classes in the first place. were not playing dungeons and dragons here. give my adept a REAL gun, not a sidearm.

[Ahglock]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i feel like im seeing alot of the topics that i made a while ago, start to pop back up again.

i agree with the OP. if my adepts power slate is not any better then the infiltrators, then why does the infiltrator get more and better guns too? if anything the three caster classes should be the ones with moe guns.

i never understood why the 3 caster classes are delegated to sidearm onloy classes in the first place. were not playing dungeons and dragons here. give my adept a REAL gun, not a sidearm.

Hey D&D melded everything into sameness as well in the latest edition.  Your weapon minds as well be a wand for each class because all that matters are the balanced powers. Whcih of course begs the question if they are balanced, why does the rogue get the most skills and from the best skill selection, why do warriors still have the most HP etc.  So D&D has the same issues for the same reasons as well. 

While I have no problem with the adept having another gun on a lore or game balancve level, I never found it much of an issue.  Once you have a anti armor and anti shield/barrier guns handled the rest is pretty much style and ammo.  Cool, but not necesarrily a game balance isssue.  That doesn't mean I don't want it, because cool is well cool. 

[Dave666]

Thanks for the responses guys. I'll admit, its a bit of a nit pick, I can't deny it. Its just whenever I think of Commander Shepard, I keep thinking he/she is a Marine, a Spec Ops type regardless of class and I just can't imagine a Marine deliberately going to a weapons locker and saying 'hmmm I COULD take an Assault Rifle, but screw it, I'll take its baby brother the SMG instead.'

To use ME:1 as an example, any class could use any weapon, they'd received basic training and while they might not be a master of a particular weapon, they could at least aim it at a target and pull the trigger. Not that I'm saying ME:1 was without its flaws mind you. I can certainly see why some people found it frustrating with weapons like the SR when they first tried to use it and couldn't hit the side of a barn with it, (or apparently look through a scope) That part never made any sense to me to be honest. lol 

Personally, I felt that ME:1's system was a bit more realistic, you had basic training in weapons but over time and practice you gained greater proficiency. Its just a shame you start off with such a crappy weapons loadout. I imagine that if you spent no points on weapon training and tried aiming with the starter gear then switched to the top line Spectre gear you'd notice a massive improvement. ME:2's combat does flow better though and while I might not like certain aspects of it, I can't fault it overall (well not too much anyway).

With all that said, I certainly understand why they introduced SMG's from a gameplay perspective. With the whole Rock, Paper, Scissors defences, SMG's work well at stripping shields, though one could argue that an AR would do the job just as well and would make more sense from a Roleplaying perspective, Marine and all that.

I realize that SMG's are here to stay for ME:3, the genie is out of the bottle so to speak. They've released it on the PS3 now and changing it could confuse a third of their market.

Still, theres no harm in discussing ideas. Who knows, someone might come out with a great one and Bioware might run with it and blow our minds.

All that said, I still say its bloomin' stupid for a Marine to pick an SMG over an AR! 

Modifié par Dave666, 17 mars 2011 - 11:10 .

[Ahglock]

Another benefit for the all weapon shepard is the cut scenes don't have to worry about class. It actively irritates me every time a cut scene pops up with shepard using a assault rifle which I don;t have.

[XCPTNL]

@ Dave: that depends on the Marine. If he likes to fight enemies at close range the SMGs might actually be better. Dual-wielding would be nice though. Of course an AR could be used as well but I wouldn't use any of the ME2 AR for this. The only AR I use for CQC is the Revenant which I don't consider a AR at all. It's a LMG like the game says.

@ Ahglock: those cutscenes are indeed very irritating. It's not just Shepard but other characters as well. Squadmates and even minor characters. One very stange cutscene is the Thane recruitment mission for example. When you get to Nassana the Eclipse Merc on the right has a Scimitar SG. Then it's suddenly a Claymore and then a Scimitar again. I really think they did a poor job there with those cutscenes regarding the weapon loadouts and behaviour (like Elnora or the Hunters in Jacob's LM firing a single shot with the Tempest or Zaeed firing like 1000rounds per second with a Mattock at Vido if you take the Paragon path or...).

[The Spamming Troll]

Ahglock wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i feel like im seeing alot of the topics that i made a while ago, start to pop back up again.

i agree with the OP. if my adepts power slate is not any better then the infiltrators, then why does the infiltrator get more and better guns too? if anything the three caster classes should be the ones with moe guns.

i never understood why the 3 caster classes are delegated to sidearm onloy classes in the first place. were not playing dungeons and dragons here. give my adept a REAL gun, not a sidearm.

Hey D&D melded everything into sameness as well in the latest edition.  Your weapon minds as well be a wand for each class because all that matters are the balanced powers. Whcih of course begs the question if they are balanced, why does the rogue get the most skills and from the best skill selection, why do warriors still have the most HP etc.  So D&D has the same issues for the same reasons as well. 

While I have no problem with the adept having another gun on a lore or game balancve level, I never found it much of an issue.  Once you have a anti armor and anti shield/barrier guns handled the rest is pretty much style and ammo.  Cool, but not necesarrily a game balance isssue.  That doesn't mean I don't want it, because cool is well cool. 

your not thinking about all 6 classes here tho. your just happy with using the SMG, because its a decent gun and no one is saying differently. the SMGs work fine as they should but your forgetting that your playing a shooter and SMGs are for baby-soldiers. the carnafax is one of the best DPSers in the game, but you dont see people labeling the pistol class as overpowered. but all those things dont mean the adept ISNT handicapped in the weapons department. if you take all 6 classes other then the solider and take away all their weapons, what class looks better? shouldnt the adept look like a beast compared to the vangaurd or infiltrator? the adept doesnt have better abilities, id even say it has worse abilities then most of the classes due to enemy protections and global cooldowns, and friggin stasis. slow mo widow sniping, cloaking, debuffs, weapon mods and all things infiltrator will never be worse then playing an adept, an adept that only uses sidearms.

im angry again. way to go bioware. and whoever brought this topic back to life. and jesus.

[The Spamming Troll]

Korjyan wrote...

@ Ahglock: those cutscenes are indeed very irritating. It's not just Shepard but other characters as well. Squadmates and even minor characters. One very stange cutscene is the Thane recruitment mission for example. When you get to Nassana the Eclipse Merc on the right has a Scimitar SG. Then it's suddenly a Claymore and then a Scimitar again. I really think they did a poor job there with those cutscenes regarding the weapon loadouts and behaviour (like Elnora or the Hunters in Jacob's LM firing a single shot with the Tempest or Zaeed firing like 1000rounds per second with a Mattock at Vido if you take the Paragon path or...).

you do realize you could just be staring at mirandas ass and samaras cleavage instead tho right?

[Dave666]

@Korjyan I thought about that and in a way thats one of the problems, if you're using an SMG then you're probably one of the squishier classes, so ideally, you don't wan't to be in an enemies face. (Sure CQC can be done with them and it can be a hell of a lot of fun, but its not ideal for the squishies). On the AR's side, I might point out the Geth Pulse rife's rather nice shield stripping abilities....

Gotta agree with you on wholeheartedly on the cutscenes! Damn thats annoying! Probably would have just been better for them to just use the pistol. Sure, it wouldn't have looked as badass, but every class has them and it wouldn't have looked so silly.

@TheSpammingTroll Wasn't my intention to rile anyone up by creating this post, it was simply to voice my thoughts and to open a debate. If there's already a thread on this, then my bad. I did have a look but you know what the search function is like on here. lol Completely agree with you on the handicap thing btw, I've said as much on another thread.  

(Copying and pasting what I wrote, 'cause I'm feeling a little lazy and its 3am here)

Thats the part that always bothered me a little. Its true, due to the Rock, Paper, Scissors nature of defences the game is based on shooting, however, non combat classes get no aid towards this. What I mean by this is, if you look at the combat classes, they all recieve bonuses to their weapon damage in their passives and some type of ability to assist in aiming. For example Soldiers have Adrenaline Rush which is has a slowdown effect, Infiltrators have scope slowdown, Vangards have a slowdown after charging (admittedly a very brief one), which all helps the player to aim and do more damage with guns.

The Caster classes however recieve none of these abilities. Granted the slowdown effects might not make much sense on these classes, but for a game that revolves around weapons they don't even receive any bonus to damage either. ME:2 rewards shooting and punishes caster classes. (Talking about hardcore and insanity here of course). The Rock, Paper, Scissors defenses only seem to affect the casters. Soldiers and Infiltrators can still 1 shot most enemies with a SR headshot regardless of defences and the Vangard isn't far behind them at all. However for the caster classes to kill an enemy they have to strip defences first.

 I'm certainly not saying that the caster classes are 'broken' or anything like that, if anything I would say its the reverse.  Adept for example I would say was very well balanced on Insanity, the combat classes...not so much.

Just my thoughts, I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me. (The world would be a boring place then, wouldn't it?) 

Modifié par Dave666, 18 mars 2011 - 03:00 .

[RGFrog]

I like the slot system idea. Everyone gets a pistol. Then you should be able to pick all weaps as a soldier, three weaps as a combo class (vanguard, sent, inf.) and two weaps as a specialist (adept, eng.).

However, I'd like to add that as a specialist, if you take an AR and SR, you get penalties to cooldowns because of the weight and bonuses to cooldowns if you only say take one weapon (like a shotgun or smg). And a greater bonus if you stick with only the pistol since you're obviously focusing on talents instead of arsenal.

Or perhaps if you stick with only a pistol you get an extra power and enough points to actually max it out or somesuch.

And no penalties or bonuses if you take one of shotgun/smg and one of ar/sr.

Modifié par RGFrog, 18 mars 2011 - 03:18 .

[Dave666]

@RGFrog I certainly wouldn't have a problem with some form of small penalty, a large one would make choosing them pointless. Not sure about cooldown penalties, I could live with decreased storm speed though. The extra weight slowing you down. That seems reasonable and logical. (Remember that often you use storm speed to run away from enemies. i.e. towards cover).

[RGFrog]

Well, i was thinking that the physical aspects of adept power usage (hand/body motions used to help focus) would be affected by also having a 50lb or more pack of weapons on your back. Thus all the weapons would result in slower use translating easily to reduced cooldown speeds in the current iteration of how adepts work.

Since engineering powers are based on the omnitool, cooldowns wouldn't necessarily be affected by weight or focus since it's just a button press...

Definitely agree with the storm speed and duration going down based on the amount of kit, though. Except in the case of the soldier class where I'd think they would be trained to work full speed with a full kit...

[Dave666]

I'd thought of that RGFrog, but to be honest, unless there are some serious changes to gameplay then the Adept really doesn't need any more handicaps. Cooldown penalties would mostly affect the caster classes, Adept and Engineer the most, the Infiltrator can, in a pinch, just use cloak, so cooldowns are less of a problem. Vangard has Charge to fall back on and providing its used wisely it can save your bacon. Same with the Sentinels Tech Armor. The Adept and Engineer however are less fortunate. Singularity and the Combat drone are less likely to get you out of trouble, you really need to be using combo's of some sort with these classes (granted thats harder still on the Engineer).

My reasoning with the Storm speed penalty was that with caster classes for example being a lot squishier than combat classes (less hp etc) running for cover is (in my view) slightly more important.

I hope that made sense of sorts?

Its nice when people can just have discussions like this, just bouncing ideas back and forth without people trolling. This is what forums are for.

[RGFrog]

Makes sense, but I don't agree that the caster classes are squishier. An adept with barrier or an Engineer with shield or armor boost should be just as hard to take on as a soldier with a full arsenal.

Personally, I'd like to see them buffed to a point where a sidearm alone is more than enough. A biotic on shep's level would be able to do use biotics at least 90% of the time to get things done.

Same with an engineer and the use of the omni-tool.

Sure, casters could take weapons, but wouldn't those weapons merely be extra baggage to these types in the ME universe? Not that they couldn't use them, just that they usually wouldn't or wouldn't need to. So, I'd think the game mechanics should work to enforce this.

Instead of rewarding an adept class for using weapons instead of biotics, why not make it harder to use either or both for those players that choose not to learn how to work their character within their chosen class.

Plus the cool down penalties I'm referring to would only come into play if you're trying to be a weapons arsenal tank AND a caster class.

Personally, i think the soldier class shouldn't have AR. The class isn't a power using class. It's a gun class. AR is something that should either be a cast for an engineer--to make up for a lack of heavy hitting weapons--not icing on an already overkill cake for a soldier.

Soldiers should know weapons, in and out. Omnitool usage should be at the periphery of this as a tool for doing the few things the weapons can't do.

Casters should know powers, and weapons should similarly be there just to do things beyond what powers can achieve.

I'm not looking for more handicaps, but better role separation. Similarly, I don't want to limit weapon choice. I agree that a soldier is a shooter first and should be able to use their choice of arsenal.

However, without some sort of additional penalty to taking all the weapons in a game, how do you keep a balance that makes the game fun and challenging?

[Dave666]

Thats a fair point and I certainly don't disagree with you on principle, however for that to work then Biotics and Tech skills need to be buffed a bit I feel. Ideally you could do play an Adept or Engineer on any dificulty and weapon usage would be icing on the cake rather than a necessary component. In ME:2 they fall into the latter category (shield stripping or barrier stripping). Combat classes have much less issues with these. A Widow head shot for example...

This is why I mentioned about passive damage boosts in ME:2, hopefully in ME:3 these issues will be addressed and we won't have a repeat of biased combat. Not sure what they could do here, but I'm sure something could be done. Perhaps giving enemies more health so that yes, after you have stripped defences you *could* just continue shooting and finish them off, or you could use biotics or tech and finish em off much faster.

Just a thought.

[naledgeborn]

Hopefully Christina Norman and the crew will read this thread. I'm liking what I'm seeing. Especially weapon slots and power/class exclusivity. And if they do read this just a simple request. Make the M8 Avenger/ M7 Lancer viable options for AR and same with the Mantis and SR. After getting the Viper/Widow the Mantis becomes irrelevant and the Avenger just plain sucks. If you guys could tweak those for ME3 it would be appreciated.