362 ответов в этой теме

[basbaker]

I was reading a who is your most/least favorite companion in the General Discussion forum and quickly came to realize that I was almost the only one who posted to it who actually enjoyed Sebastian.

My question is why does he spark such negativity?  Is it because people are anti-religion in general?  I suppose if I had to live with someone spouting the Chant of Light every time I turned around, it would gall after a short while.  But Sebastian seemed to me to be very decent - far moreso than any of the official LIs (with the possible exception of Merrill) - and not at all the kind that shoved his religion down someone else's throat.  I really enjoyed the progressive "banter" where he encourages Fenris to question what he believes in.  I enjoyed listening to his responses to Varric's and Anders' ribbing.  And I also found Sebastian to have a pretty sly humor that he managed to pull off without being unkind.  

He definitely goes hardline a couple of times - first when he wants his family avenged by killing the murderers down to the last man/woman, and then again when he demands the death of Anders or else he leaves.  But I think both of those cases are perfectly justified (ironically, Justice would have appreciated Sebastian's stand both times) and add depth to his character.  I think he's extremely well written and I wish I'd had more conversation with him.

Am I the only person who actually appreciates Nice?

[Icy Magebane]

Sebastian sucks because I paid extra money for a character whose fundamental beliefs are in direct opposition to my own. I can't even use him! He hates mages, he loves the Chantry... awesome... I almost always play the exact opposite of that. Hell, he even gets owned in every fight I took him into, so there is nothing to like about him, IMHO.

Oh, and he's also spineless.  He doesn't want to be Prince?  Really?  Yeah, he'll always be my rival because of that, if I even bother to speak to him again.

Сообщение изменено: Icy Magebane, 15 Март 2011 - 01:25 .

[nos_astra]

He's a nice addition to the party. I'm trying to get him to 100% rivalry at the moment.

Certainly perfectly capable of getting on your nerves, but also the kind of guy who will eventually embrace what life throws at him and accept willing to accept what he thinks is his calling. That's admirable, I suppose.

I looked like this o.O when he said he used to be like Isabela. WHAT?! ;-)
It's the same with people who quit smoking, they turn into the most fervent anti-smokers.

Edit: Oh, and I appreciate that despite a similar background, he's not simply Alistair 2.0.

Сообщение изменено: klarabella, 15 Март 2011 - 01:47 .

[Eveangaline]

I liked him ok...but he was kind of...I don't know the right word, flightly? He had different whims that controlled him, all while being waaay too religious. It's like every sideconvo he had was him bugging the other companions to convert.

[basbaker]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Sebastian sucks because I paid extra money for a character whose fundamental beliefs are in direct opposition to my own. I can't even use him! He hates mages, he loves the Chantry... awesome... I almost always play the exact opposite of that. Hell, he even gets owned in every fight I took him into, so there is nothing to like about him, IMHO.

Oh, and he's also spineless.  He doesn't want to be Prince?  Really?  Yeah, he'll always be my rival because of that, if I even bother to speak to him again.

I agree with you completely that he should not have been paid content.  I expect content that I pay for to be more vital to the story or my character than Sebastian was.  He was just another companion, and he didn't even have a major quest that would justify extra money spent for extra game time. 

Was he spineless, though?  I don't agree.  I think he just spent too much time arguing with himself over what was right.  But in a cast of characters who were convinced no matter what that they were in the right, who never seemed to question themselves or their decisions, that was a nice change.  He wasn't sure where he belonged and he really wanted what he did to be the Right Thing.  Maybe those were his fatal flaws.

Сообщение изменено: basbaker, 15 Март 2011 - 01:43 .

[Parrk]

So we have this prince, whose family was murdered in cold blood.  Does he seek to avenge them?  No, not really, he posts a hit request to a bulletin board and goes about his business.  He doesn't hire a few people to help him, rather he asks passers by  to do it for him.

The piety of the chantry does not sit well with a number of people because once you peel back a few layers, it reveals itself to be a ruthless theocracy obsessed with maintaining power.  The chantry is much like the Catholic Church of medieval times in that they have taken a message that is nearly universally adhered to among the people, and slowly twisted it into an oppressive regime drunk on power and murderous in its drive to maintain that power.

The Chantry's brownshirts, the templar order, was created as an army with the goal of protecting the theocracy, not handling "the mage problem".

Sebastian exemplifies the dichotomy between religion and organized religion.  He crosses the line between supporting the maker, and supporting the chantry.

This issue helps illustrate how this game is so masterfully written.  There are so many sides to this overarching issue.  While the chantry "machine" is a political one capable of brutal oppression, Grand Cleric Elfina is nearly faultless in her benevolence.  you can argue that she is out of touch and thrives on denial, but as a person, she seems to be dedicated to the love and care of others.  When faced with news of political and warfare maneuvers being considered by the divine, she does not even acknowledge the war machine, but rather gives a reply explaining her responsibility to her god and her people.

Sebastian is no Grand Cleric Elfina.  He leans the other way.  This is the simple distinction between being part of the problem, and part of the solution.


Beyond that, I  don't like him because he is whiney.

The voice actors in this game are wonderful, but sometimes I  feel like I  am in a battle of dueling English accents and dialects.  His (is it a scottish?) accent hurts my ears because they have become accustomed to the beautiful melody of Merill's Welsh.

[ODST 5723]

With the proper abilities and attributes he's a monster from range to the point that he'll have to be flanked to take any hits and even then he can escape it. It's fun to take control of him every once in awhile as my Warrior Hawke tanks it up. There are some things I agree with him about, others I don't. I like the character. He's a lot like Aveline, IMO, but with a sense of duty to The Maker rather than to Kirkwall. His world is a lot more black and white, though you get the sense that he really wants to do something else.

[Envor44]

I didn't mean to offend religious people, but his preacher's behavior + (too much of) dedicate to the Chantry are backward step for his character. While most companions are colorful and full of personality and life, I found Sebastian as Chantry's robot, sure he's nice and always came up with concept of righteousness, but he's just boring when you compare to the rest.

For a gameplay aspect, I already have Varric.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

He's a religious nutjob. I imagine that's not exactly endearing to the majority of those who play fantasy rpgs. I could be crazy though.

[The Lesser Evil]

I like Sebastian. He's firm in his beliefs in the Maker, and while he does question people on their beliefs, it's not as if he condemns people for different viewpoints or shove it down your throat too much. He's also quite fair when it comes to Mages, far more so than Fenris is. He sees the necessity to control them, but I wouldn't call him 'anti-mage'. Religious nutjob is a ridiculous description of him, he's a devoted man but I've used him quite a lot and he's far from zealous.

As for not avenging his family, while posting a notice on the board? He would have been killed if he'd gone for revenge himself. The only flaw here is game mechanics that don't allow or force you to take Sebastian with you when you do the 'Duty' quest. It says nothing about his character.

[Luckywallace]

For some reason, despite my fairly anti-religion views in both real life and of the Chantry in Thedas, I always end up getting along really well with the super-religious types.
I thought Sebastian rocked and really liked Lelianna in DA:O.

Maybe it was because I took Fenris with me a lot - his talks with Sebastian was really interesting and well written (and acted of course).

[basbaker]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

He's a religious nutjob. I imagine that's not exactly endearing to the majority of those who play fantasy rpgs. I could be crazy though.

No way he's a religious nutjob.  In our world, the religious nutjobs are the ones who blow up abortion clinics or kill people for believing something different, or even believing in a different way.  If Sebastian had, say, blown up the Circle because he believed that mages are an affront to the Maker, he would have been a religious nutjob.  Believing strongly in something and discussing those opinions calmly with people who believe differently (as Sebastian does with the other companions) makes a person the exact opposite of a nutjob.

Also, did any of the companions ever tell him to leave them alone with his religious claptrap?  If so, did he persist in trying to "convert" them?  I know he and Fenris had a lot of discussions, but I don't recall Fenris ever telling him to just shut up about the Maker already.  Because if they asked Sebastian to drop and it and he persisted, that would likely irritate me.

[LastFadingSmile]

I didn't mind Sebastian. I can't really find fault with his religious zealotry when some of my best friends are demon-summoning blood mages, promiscuous pirates, mage-hating sycophants and paranoid schizophrenic terrorists. He's a peach compared to the rest of them, and brings a sorely-needed sense of balance and lightness to a group swayed fairly heavily in the direction of dysfunction and despair.

Plus, he makes the Chant sound sexy as Hell.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

I thought I was being obvious in my simple response. However, it's clear I wasn't. The typical gamer today is probably not very religious. Which is my polite way of saying, they're probably not religious at all. Taken from that perspective, anyone who even believes in organized religion to begin with is a nutjob. Similar to how some might think anyone who believes in magical fairies is a nutjob.

Hence, the general reason why a religious person ends up being one of the least liked/appreciated characters in the game. Don't take this as some attack on religion or one's personal views. It's a generalized explanation that has nothing to do with RP or any in-game relationships between different parts of a fictional society. The OP asked a question. I gave what I believe is the most general answer, as obviously there are going to be varied individual reasons for why individual people may not like Sebastian.

For the record, I had no real problem with Sebastian, other than his being a bit of a stiff (ie: bore).

[Rinji the Bearded]

I basically liked Sebastian okay until the end. I can understand being VERY angry, but to raze all of Kirkwall for it? Kill Anders, kill Hawke, sure, but would Elthina want him to take his revenge out on an entire city, too? I hope he was just speaking out of anger, and I could only glare after him as he walked away.  Maybe he'll just post a wanted poster up at Starkhaven and wait for someone to do his dirty work, grr grr grr.

But the scottish accent was hot, not gonna lie.

Сообщение изменено: RinjiRenee, 15 Март 2011 - 02:20 .

[HopHazzard]

Sebastian lost me when he got all wistful about all the souls there were to save when I brought him to the Dalish camp. Also, when he told Fenris that the Maker gave him the opportunity to escape slavery. Does the Maker just hate all the other slaves? Then again, he does have a history of playing favorites.

[basbaker]

I appreciate the clarification. And I agree with you about today's typical gamer, and probably especially the RPG gamer. It was actually the only solid reason I could come up with for so many people ranking Sebastian as their least favorite party member. Since I'm not at all religious personally, but appreciate hearing rational arguments from people who are, I like Sebastian a lot. I suppose I'm just surprised at how far in the minority I am.

[GunClubGirl]

Sebastian was one of my favorite characters, even though I didn't like his behavior at the end of the game. True, I despise organized religion, but I overlooked his dedication in that regard in his case because I found his innocence charming. Not to mention he's good looking (sorry, being honest!) I don't have to agree with someone to like them, and he is a perfect example.

[The Lesser Evil]

I wonder how many people would list Sebastian as their least favourite if he was a more easily accessible and more "complete" romance option. Unlike the other LI's he's only available for female Hawkes, you cannot flirt with anyone else ever, and there is no fade-to-black sex scene or ANY promise of future sexy times because of his vow of chastity. Because he is pretty ridiculously cute and adorable, as well as charming if you do flirt with him during Act 2. I think a lot of people miss that part of Sebastian because the stars and planets have to align properly, it has to be a full moon and you need to jump through several hoops to get there.

Flaming hoops.

Made of death.

RinjiRenee wrote...

I basically liked Sebastian okay until the end. I can understand being VERY angry, but to raze all of Kirkwall for it? Kill Anders, kill Hawke, sure, but would Elthina want him to take his revenge out on an entire city, too? I hope he was just speaking out of anger, and I could only glare after him as he walked away.  Maybe he'll just post a wanted poster up at Starkhaven and wait for someone to do his dirty work, grr grr grr.

But the scottish accent was hot, not gonna lie.

At least Sebastian stands for what he believes in no matter how maxed out your friendship or rivalry is, I can't fault him for that. Fenris will side with Mages and won't disapprove of letting Anders go, Merrill will side with the Templars and is fine with you killing Anders, and none of the other companions will leave you despite voicing doubts if you just pampered or pissed them off enough during the game.

Sebastian? He's got conviction, and that Andraste-shaped belt buckle is covering a solid set of Maker-powered balls. I can respect that in someone, when they don't back down from their beliefs just because you give them a firm slap (HELLO, LELIANA. REMEMBER THE ASHES?)

Сообщение изменено: The Lesser Evil, 15 Март 2011 - 02:34 .

[Elsariel]

He's very nice and caring but there is something just two dimensional about his character. He seemed to lack the complexity that the other companions had. I'm floored that I get rivalry points for encouraging him to take the throne instead of remain with the chantry. Bah. Sebastian. He's a cutie pie but just a little too black and white for me.

[JamesX]

Ander and Fenris is every bit as preachy, just they don't preach religion. It is a mystery why people would like mass murderer like Anders and hate Sebastian.

[Malja]

JamesX wrote...

Ander and Fenris is every bit as preachy, just they don't preach religion. It is a mystery why people would like mass murderer like Anders and hate Sebastian.

Endgame choice probably. Makes it easier to hate the one they've opted to say bye to I suspect.

[Eveangaline]

The Lesser Evil wrote...

At least Sebastian stands for what he believes in no matter how maxed out your friendship or rivalry is, I can't fault him for that. Fenris will side with Mages and won't disapprove of letting Anders go, Merrill will side with the Templars and is fine with you killing Anders, and none of the other companions will leave you despite voicing doubts if you just pampered or pissed them off enough during the game.

Sebastian? He's got conviction, and that Andraste-shaped belt buckle is covering a solid set of Maker-powered balls. I can respect that in someone, when they don't back down from their beliefs just because you give them a firm slap (HELLO, LELIANA. REMEMBER THE ASHES?)

Really? Conviction? THat wasn't the impression I got. I got that Sebastian is ruled by his whims and emotions, one moment he wants to be prince, then he doesn't want to give up the chantry. He'll side with the mages, despite it being against his religion. And despite having spent so long yelling at me that he shouldn't be a prince and should never leave the chantry, if I don't kill Anders he's willing to go be a prince again just so he can come back and slaughter the entire city. THe dude is entirely sure of what he believes..untill he wants something else, then he throws out what he previously thought, and is entirely sure of the new thing!

I liked Sebastian well enough, even if he was kind of annoying at times, but he really is not someone I would say has conviction, he's a bit too flighty for that.

[Raiil]

I didn't use Sebas all that much (although- somehow- I got his approval up to 100? It boggles the mind) and he was just too.... from a personal standpoint, very religious people tend to scare me, and from my toon's standpoint, she was already well on her path into the abyss when they started talking, and so there was a wedge of distrust simply because he was all about the religion, as far as she could tell.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Eveangaline wrote...

The Lesser Evil wrote...

At least Sebastian stands for what he believes in no matter how maxed out your friendship or rivalry is, I can't fault him for that. Fenris will side with Mages and won't disapprove of letting Anders go, Merrill will side with the Templars and is fine with you killing Anders, and none of the other companions will leave you despite voicing doubts if you just pampered or pissed them off enough during the game.

Sebastian? He's got conviction, and that Andraste-shaped belt buckle is covering a solid set of Maker-powered balls. I can respect that in someone, when they don't back down from their beliefs just because you give them a firm slap (HELLO, LELIANA. REMEMBER THE ASHES?)

Really? Conviction? THat wasn't the impression I got. I got that Sebastian is ruled by his whims and emotions, one moment he wants to be prince, then he doesn't want to give up the chantry. He'll side with the mages, despite it being against his religion. And despite having spent so long yelling at me that he shouldn't be a prince and should never leave the chantry, if I don't kill Anders he's willing to go be a prince again just so he can come back and slaughter the entire city. THe dude is entirely sure of what he believes..untill he wants something else, then he throws out what he previously thought, and is entirely sure of the new thing!

I liked Sebastian well enough, even if he was kind of annoying at times, but he really is not someone I would say has conviction, he's a bit too flighty for that.

Exactly that.  Even if you friend him and get him to follow his path with the Chantry, and if you even just let Anders go, he goes back on everything he stands for and spits venom at you before leaving.  Ugh.  I understand that you're angry, dude, but destroy an entire city for one man's actions?  Maybe he'll calm the heck down when he gets back to Starkhaven, and then post up a bounty poster for Anders and rant about the MARDAR.

Сообщение изменено: RinjiRenee, 15 Март 2011 - 03:41 .