362 réponses à ce sujet

[RetroActiv]

Late to this thread but I will say that it's obvious that the main reason that he is disliked is because he is depicted as a religious character and some people deeply resent anything or anyone they perceive as overly religious whether it be in real life or in fiction. Anders declares Jihad on the Chantry murdering hundreds of innocent people knowing that act of terrorism will result in the death of thousands more and still gets more slack because he's only a mass murdering terrorist and not a religious "zealot" like Sebastian . Leiliana was forgiven for being a religious character largely because she was a SGRO which automatically gave her a lot of brownie points for some people. This also applies to Anders.

Modifié par RetroActiv, 29 avril 2011 - 07:18 .

[Treasure Woman]

I started disliking Sebastian, not because he's religious and chaste, but because he started talking about turning in my mage companions to the templars and then try to get Fenris in on it. >:|

[Raiil]

I'll admit, I have never cared for religious/preachy characters: I don't recruit Leliana after she goes all derp THE MAKER the first time we meet, I kill Wynne (handwaving in my head about how preachy she is). Sebastian falls under that.


It's also the fact that he just has this air of righteousness that makes my eyes cross. Merril does the same thing to me, how justified she is in what she's doing. At least Anders realises that what he did with Justice backfired like a pinto,

[bleetman]

I didn't mind him, right up until the "I will bring such an army with me on my return that there'll be nothing left of Kirkwall for these maleficarum to rule!" part.

Seriously? I mean, seriously Sebastian? Whatever happened to 'not viewing others as guilty by proximity', or all that hot air about tragedy being part of the greater puzzle?

On the bright side, I stole his bow. It was quite useful.

Modifié par bleetman, 30 avril 2011 - 03:14 .

[Melca36]

I would have liked Seb if my mage character could have reminded him that she was a mage when he kept disparaging them.

Sebastion was just way too preachy and I wanted Fenris to KILL him when he told Fenris that it was the Makers will that that child be sacrificed by blood magic so that people could witness it.

I don't need  religious zealots in my games.

Modifié par Melca36, 30 avril 2011 - 04:34 .

[Melca36]

Miri1984 wrote...

Ok, I just watched that video and I dislike Sebastian even more. He truly is hypocritical. I won't forswear my vows for the woman I love, but I'll do it to raise Kirkwall and kill Anders? Nah, Seb, you lost me.

I would pay for a DLC that features Fenris putting his fist through Seb's heart. 

[lazuli]

It's his bugged-out eyes. Let us all take a moment and bow our heads in thanks for modders.

[LobselVith8]

RetroActiv wrote...

Late to this thread but I will say that it's obvious that the main reason that he is disliked is because he is depicted as a religious character and some people deeply resent anything or anyone they perceive as overly religious whether it be in real life or in fiction.

I respectfully disagree. Anders is Andrastian like Sebastian is. He even takes Merrill to task because she doesn't believe in the Andrastian view on spirits and demons like he does. Merrill is religious in her belief in the Creators. Hawke is depicted as Andrastian, as is Bethany. Aveline is the only atheist in the group, and Varric addresses the Ancestors as well as Andraste in his dialogue.

RetroActiv wrote...

Anders declares Jihad on the Chantry murdering hundreds of innocent people knowing that act of terrorism will result in the death of thousands more and still gets more slack because he's only a mass murdering terrorist and not a religious "zealot" like Sebastian.

 
No, it's because his actions are part of the mage and templar debate, and he attacked the Chantry which controls the mages through the Circles of Magi, but that debate ever reaches a consensus.

RetroActiv wrote...

Leiliana was forgiven for being a religious character largely because she was a SGRO which automatically gave her a lot of brownie points for some people. This also applies to Anders.

There's also the issue of Sebastian talking to Fenris about handing over the apostates in Hawke's group to the templars, and Fenris of all people dismissing it by telling him to talk to Hawke about it.

[TEWR]

He's a hypocrite in his beliefs.

I don't hate him. I think he's a great person who would gladly lay his life on the line for his friends. But his constant shuffling is why people hate him. Or at least extremely dislike him.

although I did want to punch him when he said he would raze Kirkwall to the ground. I wanted to quote Elthina "Death is never justice". I wanted to tell him that he would kill all the innocent people in Kirkwall, with no remorse, to attempt to prove a point? Which he would fail at proving?

I blame the lyrium in the water.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 avril 2011 - 05:40 .

[Silfren]

RetroActiv wrote...

Late to this thread but I will say that it's obvious that the main reason that he is disliked is because he is depicted as a religious character and some people deeply resent anything or anyone they perceive as overly religious whether it be in real life or in fiction. Anders declares Jihad on the Chantry murdering hundreds of innocent people knowing that act of terrorism will result in the death of thousands more and still gets more slack because he's only a mass murdering terrorist and not a religious "zealot" like Sebastian . Leiliana was forgiven for being a religious character largely because she was a SGRO which automatically gave her a lot of brownie points for some people. This also applies to Anders.

Late to this thread as well, but of all the replies saying "oh people just hate Sebastian cuz they hate religious people," this one annoys me the most.

Yes, a lot of people dislike religious people.  But that's an oversimplification.  Most of the time, people who dislike religious people, actually dislike people who are either fanatically religious, and/or are hellbent on shoving their religious beliefs down everyone else's throat. 

If you bothered reading any of the other replies to this thread, you'd be aware that your blanket assertion is incorrect.  A lot of people do dislike Sebastian for being religious, but not all, and those who do tend to qualify WHY they have a problem with that. 

Now, for Anders.  People don't like Anders because he's "just" a mass-murdering terrorist.  Again, it's more complex than that.  I don't know too many people who've come right out and said they're happy-dunky-dory with what he did.  But a lot of people have said that they appreciate what he did from the standpoint of the Chantry's centuries' old oppression of mages, and in particular Grand Cleric Elthina's steadfast refusal to take action even when she is fully aware of the abuses going on around her.  People like him because he CAN'T be summed up as just a mass-murdering terrorist, because he, and the situation he finds himself in, are so much more complicated than to be summed up in a single, emotion-laden word that is entirely dependent on one's perception of events.

Now, to bring this around to being more on topic, to assume that people who dislike or outright hate Sebastian are the same people who love or understand Anders...not quite.  Quite a lot of people dislike both characters,, from what I've seen.  Some people happen to like the both of them. It's not a dichotomy of either/or.

[ImoenBaby]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

 I wanted to quote Elthina "Death is never justice". I wanted to tell him that he would kill all the innocent people in Kirkwall, with no remorse, to attempt to prove a point? Which he would fail at proving?

Hear, hear. Sebastian has some contradictions, to say the least. I'm hoping for an expansion pack length exploration of his character (and new adventures, abilities, characters, etc.)

[TEWR]

supposedly his story isn't over. I'm assuming he'll be forced to retake Starkhaven, but whatever path you pursued will affect his view on things.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

supposedly his story isn't over. I'm assuming he'll be forced to retake Starkhaven, but whatever path you pursued will affect his view on things.

Maybe Starkhaven will be more tolerant of mages if Hawke sides with Sebastian by killing Anders and saving the mages from the templars? It seems that he's still grabbling with seeing mages and thinking of Anders when he's brought along, but realizes that he can't blame them for Anders' actions. If Hawke helps Sebastian regain control over the largest city-state in the Free Marches, I wonder what will become of Hawke.

[TEWR]

Personally I'm hoping that Sebastian will realize how much of a child he was acting at the end.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Silfren wrote...
Now, to bring this around to being more on topic, to assume that people who dislike or outright hate Sebastian are the same people who love or understand Anders...not quite.  Quite a lot of people dislike both characters,, from what I've seen.  Some people happen to like the both of them. It's not a dichotomy of either/or.

100% THIS.

Anders happens to be my favorite character in Dragon Age 2, closely followed by Varric, then Sebastian.  I love Sebastian to itty bitty bits.  I think he's a wonderful character, and he made a fantastic foil to my Hawke and Anders' extremism on the mage situation.

Sebastian can be an impulsive, emotional, indecisive idiot sometimes, but so can anyone.  The reason why I think he tends to get flac for it is because his actions have heavy consequences, and when he does something dumb (like threaten to raze Kirkwall to the ground), there are repercussions for way more people than just him.

[Madi]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I respectfully disagree. Anders is Andrastian like Sebastian is. He even takes Merrill to task because she doesn't believe in the Andrastian view on spirits and demons like he does. Merrill is religious in her belief in the Creators. Hawke is depicted as Andrastian, as is Bethany. Aveline is the only atheist in the group, and Varric addresses the Ancestors as well as Andraste in his dialogue.

Dialog such as "either he is at the maker's side or he isn't" (refering to her dead husband) clearly  indicates that she's more or less agnostic at best. Not sure what dialog you heard that would lead you to the conclusion that she's an atheist . 

Modifié par Madi, 02 mai 2011 - 07:01 .

[Aniki_21]

I do find it hilarious and quite frankly disturbing that some people dislike Sebastian because he's apparently too religious and "preachy" of a character but at the same time can forgive Anders for being a mass murderer of inoccents..

[LobselVith8]

Madi wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I respectfully disagree. Anders is Andrastian like Sebastian is. He even takes Merrill to task because she doesn't believe in the Andrastian view on spirits and demons like he does. Merrill is religious in her belief in the Creators. Hawke is depicted as Andrastian, as is Bethany. Aveline is the only atheist in the group, and Varric addresses the Ancestors as well as Andraste in his dialogue.

Dialog such as "either he is at the maker's side or he isn't" (refering to her dead husband) clearly  indicates that she's more or less agnostic at best. Not sure what dialog you heard that would lead you to the conclusion that she's an atheist . 

What lead me to that conclusion was her dialogue. Aveline addresses that Wesley believed and she makes it clear that she doesn't. She doesn't think that the Chant of Light is true, simply that "it's beautiful" and "maybe that's all it needs to be."

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Madi wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I respectfully disagree. Anders is Andrastian like Sebastian is. He even takes Merrill to task because she doesn't believe in the Andrastian view on spirits and demons like he does. Merrill is religious in her belief in the Creators. Hawke is depicted as Andrastian, as is Bethany. Aveline is the only atheist in the group, and Varric addresses the Ancestors as well as Andraste in his dialogue.

Dialog such as "either he is at the maker's side or he isn't" (refering to her dead husband) clearly  indicates that she's more or less agnostic at best. Not sure what dialog you heard that would lead you to the conclusion that she's an atheist . 

What lead me to that conclusion was her dialogue. Aveline addresses that Wesley believed and she makes it clear that she doesn't. She doesn't think that the Chant of Light is true, simply that "it's beautiful" and "maybe that's all it needs to be."

I have to agree that it's not conclusive that Aveline is an atheist.  She does NOT ever state that she flat out does not or cannot believe.  What she does actually say is "This business of the less the Maker does, the more he's proven...I don't find it compelling," or words very close to that.  It's abundantly clear that she has doubts as to the established Chantry position of the Maker, but her statement is far too ambiguous to draw any absolute conclusions from. 

[LobselVith8]

Silfren wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What lead me to that conclusion was her dialogue. Aveline addresses that Wesley believed and she makes it clear that she doesn't. She doesn't think that the Chant of Light is true, simply that "it's beautiful" and "maybe that's all it needs to be."

I have to agree that it's not conclusive that Aveline is an atheist.  She does NOT ever state that she flat out does not or cannot believe.  What she does actually say is "This business of the less the Maker does, the more he's proven...I don't find it compelling," or words very close to that.  It's abundantly clear that she has doubts as to the established Chantry position of the Maker, but her statement is far too ambiguous to draw any absolute conclusions from. 

Aveline addresses the dichotomy between Wesley and her was that he believed, and she addresses that she married a good man, as opposed to a templar and his beliefs. Nothing she says indicates that she believes in the Maker, and she even gives approval when Hawke counters Grand Cleric Elthina's comments about the Maker (and gives disapproval if Hawke agrees with the Grand Cleric).

[Silfren]

Aniki_21 wrote...

I do find it hilarious and quite frankly disturbing that some people dislike Sebastian because he's apparently too religious and "preachy" of a character but at the same time can forgive Anders for being a mass murderer of inoccents..

As I tried to point out elsewhere, these are oversimplifications.  Sure, some people probably do have a superficial dislike for religious people just because, but far more people have justified distrust and kneejerk dislike of people who are openly religious, because there is a tendency among religious people to be self-righteous in their condemnation of the beliefs of others whose religious outlook--or utter lack of religious opinion--is contrary to their own, and that is to say nothing of how overbearing and intolerant they can be in general.  Is it fair to suggest that all religious people are like that?  No, of course not.  But the experience of such is common enough that the innate dislike and distrust of many people for the general religious population shouldn't be surprising to anyone. 

As for Anders, I can only speak for myself, but I know from reading the opinions of others that I am hardly alone in my view: his attack on the Chantry is not motivated by irrational religious fanaticism, but by a millenium of oppression by a religio-political institution.  The first mistake a lot of people make is equating the Chantry he exploded with the little corner church down the street, purely a house of worship and nothing more.  In the setting of Kirkwall in the Dragon Age, however, that is not the case.  The Chantry of the setting is equivalent to the RCC of the real-world Middle Ages.  An institution of political power as well as religious authority, and represents the power and tradition of imprisoning mages for the crime of existing.  It's not to be doubted that Anders killed innocents in his attack.  But he didn't target innocents, he targeted the Grand Cleric and the institution she represented.  And if I'm going to condemn Anders, I might as well condemn any and every freedom fighter in history.  He is no different from the American revolutionaries, or the French revolutionaries, or from such individuals as John Brown, who is the closest individual I can compare him with.  The reason I am able to "forgive" Anders for his act is the same I'm able to not regard any of the former as evil terrorists: it is perspective, and only perspective, that determines whether a person is derided as a terrorist or hailed as a hero. 

Getting back to Sebastian, too many people who want to pretend that his religious nature is utterly harmless and no big deal.  But it is Sebastian's own dialogue that damns him in my eyes.  Such as when he tells Fenris in party banter that it was probably the Maker's will to allow a child to be sacrificed in blood magic so that others might see the evil in it.  It is that attitude, which is held by far too many religious people I've known in my life, which I despise.  God permits evil to happen to prove a point?  Sebastian may be passively religious in many ways, but passivity does not equate to harmless.  I don't associate with anyone in real life who believes in that kind of God, so when I see the same attitude espoused by a character, be it in a game, a book, or movie, I'm going to be biased against them.  It is not a simple matter of my hating religious people just because, and I doubt I'm the only one here who finds that notion offensive.  Trust me, people like myself have legitimate, justified reasons for our feelings on the matter.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Aveline addresses the dichotomy between Wesley and her was that he believed, and she addresses that she married a good man, as opposed to a templar and his beliefs. Nothing she says indicates that she believes in the Maker, and she even gives approval when Hawke counters Grand Cleric Elthina's comments about the Maker (and gives disapproval if Hawke agrees with the Grand Cleric).

Again, I have to point out that disagreeing with the Chantry's official doctrine does not mean that she is an atheist.  I am familiar with the dialogue of Aveline saying she married a man, and a good one, but that dialogue in no way establishes her as a staunch atheist.  

All the dialogues you refer to establish that Aveline certainly does not believe that the Chantry has the final say on what is and isn't true, that she doesn't believe the Chant of Light is a fact merely because the Chantry says so.  But nevertheless it is a mistake to conclude from that that she is an atheist.  Doubting that the official, established Church is correct in its assertions doesn't automatically make a person an atheist, which is what I'm trying to communicate to you, here.  

Has Aveline made it clear she doubts?  Yes.  Has she stated that she rejects the idea of belief in the Maker completely?  Not by a long shot, not in a single one of her dialogues.

[basbaker]

Silfren wrote...

Getting back to Sebastian, too many people who want to pretend that his religious nature is utterly harmless and no big deal.  But it is Sebastian's own dialogue that damns him in my eyes.  Such as when he tells Fenris in party banter that it was probably the Maker's will to allow a child to be sacrificed in blood magic so that others might see the evil in it.  It is that attitude, which is held by far too many religious people I've known in my life, which I despise.  God permits evil to happen to prove a point?  Sebastian may be passively religious in many ways, but passivity does not equate to harmless.  I don't associate with anyone in real life who believes in that kind of God, so when I see the same attitude espoused by a character, be it in a game, a book, or movie, I'm going to be biased against them.  It is not a simple matter of my hating religious people just because, and I doubt I'm the only one here who finds that notion offensive.  Trust me, people like myself have legitimate, justified reasons for our feelings on the matter.

Fenris:  Terrible things do happen, Sebastian.

Sebastian: But what we see is only a piece of the puzzle.  Only the Maker can see the greater picture.

Fenris: The guilty prosper.  Innocents die.

Sebastian: And then they are brought to the side of the Maker.  Their suffering ends.  There is always a greater purpose.

Fenris: Danarius once killed a little boy to fuel blood magic that let him impress his fellow senators at a party.  What was the purpose there?

Sebastian: Perhaps it was witnessing that which will give you the strength to prevent it ever happening again.

According to the wiki (because I didn't want to take the time to load up my game and sift through Act 3 dialogue), that is the "banter" between Fenris and Sebastian that you're referencing.  This isn't to discredit anything that you said - I understand why a lot of people have deep reservations about both religion and the people who devoutly believe in a single religion.  The reason I put the full conversation here is because I understand it differently.

Sebastian never said that it was the Maker's will that a little boy be killed.  From what I've read in the lore and heard in the games, the Maker is pretty much like Christianity's God in that he chose to give everyone free will.  That means that he doesn't necessarily "make" things happen, although he can.  He leaves it up to people to choose what they'll do, right or wrong.  But, that doesn't mean that he can't turn a despicable act into a message for someone else - to take something evil and create from it a purpose that is good.  Sebastian is only saying that what Danarius did, horrific as it was, did not have to be regarded as completely pointless.

It all comes down to how you feel about God (if you believe in God) giving people free will, and what He meant by it.  I personally believe that obedience to a person or a god just because there is absolutely no other option is not worship.  It's slavery.  The Maker apparently thinks so, too.

[Silfren]

Basbaker,

And it is precisely the Maker and the Chantry's resemblance to the God of Judeo-Christendom and most mainstream churches that I find the entire thing terribly unpalatable. I do not want to turn this into a religion-bashfest, but everything I know about mainstream Christianity's concept of God and free will is an illogical cop-out to explain most Christian denominations' understanding of the nature of evil and how it can co-exist with the idea of an omnipotent and omniscient Creator who is supposed to also be omnibenevolent. It is impossible to reconcile the two without contradiction, and thus there is not one single argument I've ever heard that does not require cognitive dissonance. Because people cannot just accept that there are no answers that make sense to human reason, and so they insist on trying to force the square peg into the round hole even though it just cannot be done.

I answered your post because I felt it deserved an answer, but I truly do not want to see this thread dissolve into a hatefest, which it has the potential to do now with my reply. If you'd like to continue this conversation, I suggest we take it to PMs.

[basbaker]

I don't see any reason to take it to PMs. I'm not at all offended by your viewpoint. I can see both sides of the issue, and I don't have strong enough feelings either way to get upset about it. I'm merely pointing out a different way of looking at things. I started this thread over a month ago because, while I see the flaws in Sebastian's character and understand the strong feelings a lot of people have on the very touchy subject of religion, I love the way he's written, the way he's acted, and the way he isn't quite as cut-and-dried as people might think at a glance.

As with every companion that the Dragon Age team throws our way, there are layers complete with black, white and shades of gray. But people tend to dismiss Sebastian's shades of gray. His character gets lost in the shuffle of whether or not religion is wrong or right. People are free to love or hate Sebastian for anything from the color of his eyes to the way he says the word bunny. I just like to hear why. I like to hear what people think of one of my favorite characters in this game, even if he's one of their least favorite.

To me, your opinion is just as valid as that of anyone else who takes the time to really think it through and understand why they feel the way they feel. I'm glad you posted.