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Why does Sebastian get under people's skin? (Spoilers)


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#326
Silfren

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LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Silfren wrote...

berelinde wrote...

 Mind you, none of my PCs will ever kill him, but there are plenty who do.


I do have to say that, well, I was going to have several playthroughs where Anders was executed, but I'm starting to rethink that simply because I don't think Anders actually can be killed, what with Vengeance being permanently merged with him.  And I figure it's better to just keep him alive rather than have to re-arrange my headcanon to deal with Bioware retcons.  :whistle:


Of course, the developers can change their minds at any time, but your head canon should be safe when shanking Anders.


I'll believe that when it happens.  :bandit:

Modifié par Silfren, 04 mai 2011 - 07:55 .


#327
Silfren

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Aniki_21 wrote...

Alright instead of debating the semantics of the word "terrorist" let's just go with what we know for sure. Anders is an indiscriminate mass murderer who's victims included men, women, likely children, along with mages whom he claimed to be fighting for. 


It's a little more involved than mere semantics, but anyway, sorry, I don't think Anders was indiscriminate.  He specifically targeted the Chantry, which represents an institution of religious authority and political power that has dominated the popular viewpoint toward mages within Thedas as well as the legal tradition of imprisoning them as part of the way life just goes.  No question that innocent people were caught in the cross-fire, but I wouldn't call his action indiscriminate.  He didn't just randomly explode the Hanged Man.

#328
Amondra

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The reason I don't care for Seb is because I paid money for a character I couldn't get till act two, then at the end of the game I have to kill a character I have basically had from the get go and have become attached too(I know a lot of people don't like him, but I do) because he(to me) had a sick and slightly creepy love for Elthina? Because he seems more upset over Elthina being dead over the idea more people died then just her. And if I don't kill Anders he is leaving?! I mean even Fenris has a crisis point and will stay and side with the mages, and he hates mages and Anders with a passion!

I felt he was a waste of my money. Also game play wise here as I am sure more of you will relate better. My first Hawke was a warrior. So lose my healer for another Archer? No thats okay I got Varric.

#329
Sable Rhapsody

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Amondra wrote...

The reason I don't care for Seb is because I paid money for a character I couldn't get till act two, then at the end of the game I have to kill a character I have basically had from the get go and have become attached too(I know a lot of people don't like him, but I do) because he(to me) had a sick and slightly creepy love for Elthina? Because he seems more upset over Elthina being dead over the idea more people died then just her. And if I don't kill Anders he is leaving?! I mean even Fenris has a crisis point and will stay and side with the mages, and he hates mages and Anders with a passion!


Well, he isn't without his reasons.  As much as I love Anders, it's not like he did anyone any favors when he blew up the Chantry.  And look at it from Seb's point of view.  I don't think his affection for Elthina is at all creepy--she was a parental figure to him, nothing more or less.  From his point of view, Anders killed a decent person, the one person in Kirkwall who might have found a peaceful solution.  

Fenris might hate Anders, but when it comes to the Chantry, he's a far more reasonable and unbiased guy than Sebastian.  He doesn't like mages, but he has no personal stake in Kirkwall's problems.  At the end of the day, Hawke and his friends will always matter more to him than the grand problems in Kirkwall.  He doesn't even really treat the city as his home.  But the Kirkwall Chantry was home to Seb for fifteen years.  It has a very different meaning for him.

tl;dr--Just like Anders, Seb has understandable reasons for doing what he does and being as he is, though like with Anders, it doesn't excuse or justify his behavior.

#330
chelseaisthepan

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2 words:

MAYKUH NOOOOOOOOO!

#331
Amondra

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chelseaisthepan wrote...

2 words:

MAYKUH NOOOOOOOOO!


See that and your Avatar I about died laughing.

#332
Amondra

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Amondra wrote...

The reason I don't care for Seb is because I paid money for a character I couldn't get till act two, then at the end of the game I have to kill a character I have basically had from the get go and have become attached too(I know a lot of people don't like him, but I do) because he(to me) had a sick and slightly creepy love for Elthina? Because he seems more upset over Elthina being dead over the idea more people died then just her. And if I don't kill Anders he is leaving?! I mean even Fenris has a crisis point and will stay and side with the mages, and he hates mages and Anders with a passion!


Well, he isn't without his reasons.  As much as I love Anders, it's not like he did anyone any favors when he blew up the Chantry.  And look at it from Seb's point of view.  I don't think his affection for Elthina is at all creepy--she was a parental figure to him, nothing more or less.  From his point of view, Anders killed a decent person, the one person in Kirkwall who might have found a peaceful solution.  

Fenris might hate Anders, but when it comes to the Chantry, he's a far more reasonable and unbiased guy than Sebastian.  He doesn't like mages, but he has no personal stake in Kirkwall's problems.  At the end of the day, Hawke and his friends will always matter more to him than the grand problems in Kirkwall.  He doesn't even really treat the city as his home.  But the Kirkwall Chantry was home to Seb for fifteen years.  It has a very different meaning for him.

tl;dr--Just like Anders, Seb has understandable reasons for doing what he does and being as he is, though like with Anders, it doesn't excuse or justify his behavior.


True true. What it really comes down to for me is "Kill Anders or I go."  After I paid money for him thats what I get?!:huh:  I just felt cheated really.  I think it is for that reason I can't really like him. I just see wasted money, on what can feel like walls.

#333
Sable Rhapsody

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Amondra wrote...

True true. What it really comes down to for me is "Kill Anders or I go."  After I paid money for him thats what I get?!:huh:  I just felt cheated really.  I think it is for that reason I can't really like him. I just see wasted money, on what can feel like walls.


Fair point.  Though it's not like there's much of the game left at that point anyway.

#334
berelinde

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Keep in mind that there are people out there who would pay the price of the DLC or more not to have Anders in the game at all. Personally, I think they're mad.

I once knew a guy very like Sebastian, twenty years ago or more. He pledged undying devotion and offered to get my name tattooed over his heart to prove his sincerity. I told him that I did not doubt his sincerity for a moment, it was his dedication I questioned. Six months later, we parted as friends. It would have happened even if he had gotten that tattoo. We're friends to this day, mostly because I never expected him to live up to promises I knew that he would never be able to keep. Moral of the story: It is possible for love to be fleeting. That does not mean the love was not real, it just means that a person needs to consider the source before making permanent arrangements. Sebastian feels things strongly, no doubt about it, but his passions are subject to change.

#335
Sable Rhapsody

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berelinde wrote...
Sebastian feels things strongly, no doubt about it, but his passions are subject to change.


THIS.

It distinguishes him from characters like Anders.  It does make him appear indecisive, but honestly, isn't Sebastian how more people are IRL?  Most people IRL don't become as passionately fixated on things as Anders, Merrill, and Fenris do.

#336
Aniki_21

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Silfren wrote...

Aniki_21 wrote...

Alright instead of debating the semantics of the word "terrorist" let's just go with what we know for sure. Anders is an indiscriminate mass murderer who's victims included men, women, likely children, along with mages whom he claimed to be fighting for. 



It's a little more involved than mere semantics, but anyway, sorry, I don't think Anders was indiscriminate.  He specifically targeted the Chantry, which represents an institution of religious authority and political power that has dominated the popular viewpoint toward mages within Thedas as well as the legal tradition of imprisoning them as part of the way life just goes.  No question that innocent people were caught in the cross-fire, but I wouldn't call his action indiscriminate.  He didn't just randomly explode the Hanged Man.


Love the way you minimize his
actions. Caught in the cross fire? Yeah just like the victims of 911 were
"caught in the cross fire" as the true targets were the buildings that
represented America's wealth and trade as well as its’ "oppressive"
military power and influence.  . The hundreds of innocent people Anders
murdered was done so pre meditated and indiscriminately. -Fact

#337
LobselVith8

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Aniki_21 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Aniki_21 wrote...

I’m sure he and Osama Bin Laden would get along great.
 


Shyeah, I can see why people are calling 9/11 the new Godwin.  But anyway, Osama bin Laden is not a good comparison to Anders.  John Brown is much closer.  


I don't know, Anders and Bin Laden , both mass murdering terrorists who justify their atrocities because of a greater "cause". Although unlike Bin Laden Anders pretty much seemed to plan and execute his act of indiscriminate mass murder entirely on his own. So i guess he actually puts Bin Laden to shame as a terrorist in that respect.


Isn't that precisely what Meredith does when she orders the execution of countless men, women, and children of the Kirkwall Circle for an act Anders committed?

#338
Kawamura

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Aniki_21 wrote...
 The hundreds of innocent people Anders
murdered was done so pre meditated and indiscriminately. -Fact


The fact... of hundreds of people murdered indiscriminately? 

When'd we get numbers of people killed, I wonder.

#339
The Dubious

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 Not that Sebastian was the only hypocrite just his hypocrisy irked me the most- being a "man of faith" and all
I liked him at first (though found him near worthless in combat- figures), but in later playthroughs I really started to dislike his character- he made feel bitter he reminded me of past experiences with types like him and ultimately caused me to turn my back on religion, (not that I'm anti-religion).
I don't know towards the end of the game though- that infamous "kill him or I go" liner (not only did it seem hypocritical of him to wish death on someone) all I could think to myself is Isabela's party banter with Ander's about how justice is like a "bar brawl-" not only did I have a strong attachment to Anders I just couldn't bring myself to add on to the death toll by executing Anders just to appease Sebastian and my own since of justice- the dead are dead and it does them no good to tack on an extra corpse nor mourn, better to utilize what's left and try to redeem and rebuild- perhaps that's harsh but you don't get far lingering and loitering in the past. 
Totally off topic I think- but Sebastian's character was one I really enjoyed and hated all at once. :unsure:

#340
Guest_ElleMullineux_*

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There were two reasons Seb annoyed me, 1 - crazy-eyes McGee at the end. Yuck.
2 - When he has a quiet word with you about your relationship with Anders in the chantry. Mostly because you know it's true. Which is what made him an excellent character. I can hate the jeebus out of him, but he was well written.

#341
nos_astra

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berelinde wrote...
I once knew a guy very like Sebastian, twenty years ago or more. He pledged undying devotion and offered to get my name tattooed over his heart to prove his sincerity. I told him that I did not doubt his sincerity for a moment, it was his dedication I questioned. Six months later, we parted as friends. It would have happened even if he had gotten that tattoo. We're friends to this day, mostly because I never expected him to live up to promises I knew that he would never be able to keep. Moral of the story: It is possible for love to be fleeting. That does not mean the love was not real, it just means that a person needs to consider the source before making permanent arrangements. Sebastian feels things strongly, no doubt about it, but his passions are subject to change.

I must have missed the point where Sebastian ever promised to unquestioningly follow Hawke and dedicate his life to freeing the mages. Or something like that.

What promises should he live up to? I really don't understand what you expect of him. He has made his peace with his life in the Chantry, though there is obviously still some doubt in him as to what his true calling in life is. The only thing I ever saw him promise was the "chaste marriage" thing on the friendship path. That's the only arrangement ever made (and it didn't happen in my game).

Sebastian doesn't seem to know what he wants (Elthina calls him impulsive) and maybe he could have been more steadfast in his decisions, but the fact that he's not doesn't bother me at all. He displeased Elthina with his request at the chanter's board (Act 1). It obviously took him three years to decide that he should leave the chantry (Act 2) and then another four years to get the idea that he maybe should rejoin because he erred in his judgement (Act 3).

Modifié par klarabella, 05 mai 2011 - 08:36 .


#342
Aniki_21

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Aniki_21 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Aniki_21 wrote...

I’m sure he and Osama Bin Laden would get along great.
 


Shyeah, I can see why people are calling 9/11 the new Godwin.  But anyway, Osama bin Laden is not a good comparison to Anders.  John Brown is much closer.  


I don't know, Anders and Bin Laden , both mass murdering terrorists who justify their atrocities because of a greater "cause". Although unlike Bin Laden Anders pretty much seemed to plan and execute his act of indiscriminate mass murder entirely on his own. So i guess he actually puts Bin Laden to shame as a terrorist in that respect.


Isn't that precisely what Meredith does when she orders the execution of countless men, women, and children of the Kirkwall Circle for an act Anders committed?


Yeah and she's a megalomaniacal psycho bit**.  I don't see anyone trying to defend her like some do with Anders. Anders also shares the responsiblity of the people she killed/attempted to kill along with the hundersdreds he killed personaly because he deliberately provoked it. 

#343
Silfren

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Aniki_21 wrote...

Love the way you minimize his actions. Caught in the cross fire? Yeah just like the victims of 911 were "caught in the cross fire" as the true targets were the buildings that represented America's wealth and trade as well as its’ "oppressive"
military power and influence.  . The hundreds of innocent people Anders murdered was done so pre meditated and indiscriminately. -Fact


bin Laden deliberately targeted civilians and aimed for as massive a death toll as could be managed.  Anders specifically targeted the Chantry and the Grand Cleric because of the institution they represent.  It wasn't a soft target, like a modern day street corner church would be.  I'm not minimizing what he did.  What I am saying is that he's not in the same category as bin Laden.  Yes, there were no doubt innocents that got caught in the cross-fire, but Anders wasn't targeting them.  I realize that that is small comfort in the wake of those deaths, but there it is.  Any time a revolutionary hits a target, there's a chance of civilians getting killed.  You don't have to be a terrorist going out of your way to specifically target non-combatants for that to happen.  And that being the case, if you're going to call Anders a terrorist, you might as well call everyone a terrorist who doesn't go well out of their way to avoid hitting civilians.  That list is going to include quite a lot of people that are not considered terrorists in the popular mindset.  

This is more of an aside than anything, but we don't have any idea how many people died as a result of Anders' explosion.  Any time I've been in the Chantry there's been a bare handful of people there, and when it goes boom, we only see the Grand Cleric and about four or so templars.  Granted, one innocent or a hundred innocents is irrelevant--it sucks whenever any number of innocents die, but again, there it is.  If any innocent people were killed, most likely they were pedestrians who got smacked in the head by raining Chantry-stone, but even then, we have no idea how many that would be, if any.

#344
Silfren

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Aniki_21 wrote...

Yeah and she's a megalomaniacal psycho bit**.  I don't see anyone trying to defend her like some do with Anders. Anders also shares the responsiblity of the people she killed/attempted to kill along with the hundersdreds he killed personaly because he deliberately provoked it. 


Yeah, uh, no.  Whatever you think about Anders, he is not to blame for Meredith's calling for the Annulment.  She had already requested the Right from the Divine, and was just looking for an excuse.  She may have decided to use Anders' act as the excuse, but she knew that the Circle mages were not responsible--or at least she made no attempt whatsoever to determine their involvement, first.  She had the murderer right there in front of her, and she called for the Annulment.  It's unclear whether anyone in the Circle was in league with Anders, but what we see would imply that no Circle mages were.  Meredith all but admits that she's aware the Circle was not involved with the explosion, but further attempts to justify Annulment by claiming that the populace of Kirkwall will demand blood and she has no choice but to appease them.

A lot of people, pro-mage and pro-templar alike, have suggested that Anders guessed ahead of time that his action would provoke Meredith into trying to Annul the Circle.  I'm not sure that's true.  I think he knew he'd provoke something, but it's just as likely he thought that mages hearing of the Chantry's obliteration by an apostate might then be emboldened to rebel.  Regardless, Meredith had agency and could very well have chosen to respond to his action differently.  What he did certainly didn't force her hand, didn't force her to have no choice but to purge the Circle mages.

#345
tehprincessJ

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I've been avoiding becoming involved in the discussion here, because everyone is different, everyone has characters which do and don't speak to them, and I have no desire to change anyone's mind. Also, compairing a video game to 9/11 (especially right now) seems really silly, IMO. But don't let me stop you.
 
I wanted to point something out.

Amondra wrote...

True true. What it really comes down to for me is "Kill Anders or I go."  After I paid money for him thats what I get?!Image IPB  I just felt cheated really.  I think it is for that reason I can't really like him. I just see wasted money, on what can feel like walls.


I didn't pay for Sebastian. But how is his "do this or I'm leaving" any different from Anders' "side with mages, or else!"?

#346
RetroActiv

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Silfren wrote...

Aniki_21 wrote...

Yeah and she's a megalomaniacal psycho bit**.  I don't see anyone trying to defend her like some do with Anders. Anders also shares the responsiblity of the people she killed/attempted to kill along with the hundersdreds he killed personaly because he deliberately provoked it. 


Yeah, uh, no.  Whatever you think about Anders, he is not to blame for Meredith's calling for the Annulment.  She had already requested the Right from the Divine, and was just looking for an excuse.  She may have decided to use Anders' act as the excuse, but she knew that the Circle mages were not responsible--or at least she made no attempt whatsoever to determine their involvement, first.  She had the murderer right there in front of her, and she called for the Annulment.  It's unclear whether anyone in the Circle was in league with Anders, but what we see would imply that no Circle mages were.  Meredith all but admits that she's aware the Circle was not involved with the explosion, but further attempts to justify Annulment by claiming that the populace of Kirkwall will demand blood and she has no choice but to appease them.

A lot of people, pro-mage and pro-templar alike, have suggested that Anders guessed ahead of time that his action would provoke Meredith into trying to Annul the Circle.  I'm not sure that's true.  I think he knew he'd provoke something, but it's just as likely he thought that mages hearing of the Chantry's obliteration by an apostate might then be emboldened to rebel.  Regardless, Meredith had agency and could very well have chosen to respond to his action differently.  What he did certainly didn't force her hand, didn't force her to have no choice but to purge the Circle mages.


Errrr..... It's pretty obvious that he knew exactly what he was doing and what would happen after he murdered all those people. That was exactly what he wanted and even admited as much for crying out loud. You really are trying to minimize his atrocity as much as possible but there  is just no getting around the fact that Anders Bin Laden with that single act of mass murder and terrorism became a murdering scumbag  worse than crazy old Merridith.  Sorry 

#347
Trefalen

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Sebastian is the typical royal brat, bored, wants others to fight for him. Starkhaven would do well to write him off. He chooses to stay in the Chantry because IMHO he's a coward. He can hold onto his beliefs and help his country heal and grow. But Nooooooooooooooooo that's too hard... Someone call the Wahhhhhmbulence..

Was that too harsh? LOL  I wish I could fight him after the Tower blows up. Ahh well.. He said he will return with an army, maybe we can kick his royal butt back to SH in DA3! lol

Modifié par Trefalen, 05 mai 2011 - 05:06 .


#348
Silfren

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tehprincessJ wrote...

I didn't pay for Sebastian. But how is his "do this or I'm leaving" any different from Anders' "side with mages, or else!"?


From a character standpoint, well, Anders at least makes sense.  It's apparently only a bug that prevents you from convincing a rival!manced Anders to side with the Templars, rather than a character-based game mechanic, but Anders refusing to fight against the mages, and expecting you to do the same, makes sense for a man obsessed with seeing them freed from Chantry oppression.

Sebastian's "Kill him or I go," is...well.   Yes, it's perfectly natural for Sebastian to want Anders dead.  Given that Anders just murdered a woman Sebastian looks up to and probably views as a surrogate mother, of course he'd want him dead.  But there's a bit of a WTF element added to that whole scene, because one wonders why Sebastian doesn't even attempt to shank Anders himself.  He even says as much to Knight-Commander Meredith.  Don't know the full quote, but he includes the phrase "I will kill him myself," or something very close.  But then he...doesn't?  Even though Anders is sitting right there, offering no resistance whatsoever, and practically welcoming death?

I've said before that that's most likely a meta-gaming detail right up there with Hawke's plot armour.  To an extent there are certain game mechanics that are unavoidable, but Bioware could have handled it far better.  If they don't want Sebastian to take the decision out of players' hands, and want to have the threat of Starkhaven's might being brought to bear hanging over your head, well, they had options.  One that comes to mind is that, rather than demand that Hawke kill Anders, he could try to make good on his just-made promise to Meredith and make a move for him--whereupon Hawke is given a dialogue option to either step aside, or block Sebastian's path.  Which could in turn lead to a similar confrontation as the one we are given: Sebastian demands that Hawke move, and if Hawke refuses, Sebastian could find himself either unwilling to cut through Hawke, or faced Hawke's companions falling in line with her decision to spare Anders, and declaring that he'll come back with an army.  Or something else.  

That scene could just have been written differently, because it not occurring to Sebastian to draw a blade and stab Anders through just seems rather bizarre in light of his standing there demanding justice.  As it is, if you consider the scene as a consistent depiction of Sebastian's character rather than a lore-breaking game mechanic put in place for plot purposes, then it just makes Sebastian seem all the more...capricious, cowardly, impulsive...take your pick.  

Annnnd wow but I spend waaaay too much time considering character motivations.

#349
Trefalen

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That scene could just have been written differently, because it not occurring to Sebastian to draw a blade and stab Anders through just seems rather bizarre in light of his standing there demanding justice.  As it is, if you consider the scene as a consistent depiction of Sebastian's character rather than a lore-breaking game mechanic put in place for plot purposes, then it just makes Sebastian seem all the more...capricious, cowardly, impulsive...take your pick.  

Annnnd wow but I spend waaaay too much time considering character motivations.


Yup, I take it that he is a base coward. And don't get me started about how he whimps out and won't help in the fade.. Too bad he wasn't in the tower actually. He could have taken Elthina's place.

Essentially he hides behind his so called beliefs. He wasn't able to defend them like The Revered Mother. They need to rename the expansion, from exiled prince, to later whimp..  Alistair was Rambo compared to him.

Modifié par Trefalen, 05 mai 2011 - 05:15 .


#350
Silfren

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RetroActiv wrote...

Errrr..... It's pretty obvious that he knew exactly what he was doing and what would happen after he murdered all those people. That was exactly what he wanted and even admited as much for crying out loud. You really are trying to minimize his atrocity as much as possible but there  is just no getting around the fact that Anders Bin Laden with that single act of mass murder and terrorism became a murdering scumbag  worse than crazy old Merridith.  Sorry 



Really?  Anders came right out and admitted he wanted Meredith to slaughter all the mages in the Gallows?  

No, I'm not trying to minimize his atrocity.   I just see him as fighting for a righteous cause.  His actions were extreme, and bloody, yes, but the same can be and often is said of historical figures.  I'm guessing you're an American like myself, based on your insistence on the bin Laden references (said because I don't know anyone beyond Americans who draw parallels to terrorism with phrases like "Anders bin Laden), so I wonder, do you think any of our Great American Heroes never, ever shed innocent blood?  None of the American Revolutionaries?  

History is written by the victor, and the victors rarely paint themselves as terroristic murderers, even though objective observations of history usually reveals that the primary difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist is the cause being championed.

There's a few significant differences between Anders and bin Laden, however.  bin Laden went out of his way to target innocent people.  He also didn't actually put himself in harm's way, and he spent years actively avoiding capture or execution.  All the available evidence we have suggests that in Laden rejoiced in the deaths of innocents even as he sent other people to do the killling.  By contrast, Anders doesn't send anyone to do his dirty work, but takes it upon himself.  Given his words to Hawke, it seems that he specifically wanted to make sure that he, and only he, was responsible for his crime.  He didn't rejoice in the deaths he caused, but acknowledged that what he did was horrific.  Depending on whether you romanced him, he even acknowledges that his victims deserve justice.  And even though innocent people likely--not absolutely, but likely--were caught in the crossfire, he did not target them.  He targeted the Chantry rather than a soft target (like, say, the Hanged Man), and the Grand Cleric, who was by no means innocent.

Oh, and this is the part you're really going to hate me for...like it or not, bin Laden's attack on the U.S. was successful in large part because of U.S. policy in the Middle East.  Before you toss around any accusations, I'm not saying that he was right, or justified, to mastermind the slaughter of over three thousand people (including other terrorist acts beyond the Twin Towers, such as the Cole). But if you pay any attention to U.S. foreign policy at all, and our, erm, rich history of dealings with the world at large...there's no getting around the fact that we, as a nation, fostered the hatred that led to people wanting to attack us in the first place. 

There's a similar situation in-game between Anders and the Chantry.  A lot of people keep saying that Anders' action only proves the Chantry correct, but that's a serious misunderstanding of cause-and-effect logic.  His actions don't justify Chantry law; it is Chantry law that created Anders to begin with. 

Modifié par Silfren, 05 mai 2011 - 05:23 .