362 réponses à ce sujet

[Aniki_21]

RetroActiv wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Aniki_21 wrote...

Yeah and she's a megalomaniacal psycho bit**.  I don't see anyone trying to defend her like some do with Anders. Anders also shares the responsiblity of the people she killed/attempted to kill along with the hundersdreds he killed personaly because he deliberately provoked it. 

Yeah, uh, no.  Whatever you think about Anders, he is not to blame for Meredith's calling for the Annulment.  She had already requested the Right from the Divine, and was just looking for an excuse.  She may have decided to use Anders' act as the excuse, but she knew that the Circle mages were not responsible--or at least she made no attempt whatsoever to determine their involvement, first.  She had the murderer right there in front of her, and she called for the Annulment.  It's unclear whether anyone in the Circle was in league with Anders, but what we see would imply that no Circle mages were.  Meredith all but admits that she's aware the Circle was not involved with the explosion, but further attempts to justify Annulment by claiming that the populace of Kirkwall will demand blood and she has no choice but to appease them.

A lot of people, pro-mage and pro-templar alike, have suggested that Anders guessed ahead of time that his action would provoke Meredith into trying to Annul the Circle.  I'm not sure that's true.  I think he knew he'd provoke something, but it's just as likely he thought that mages hearing of the Chantry's obliteration by an apostate might then be emboldened to rebel.  Regardless, Meredith had agency and could very well have chosen to respond to his action differently.  What he did certainly didn't force her hand, didn't force her to have no choice but to purge the Circle mages.

Errrr..... It's pretty obvious that he knew exactly what he was doing and what would happen after he murdered all those people. That was exactly what he wanted and even admited as much for crying out loud. You really are trying to minimize his atrocity as much as possible but there  is just no getting around the fact that Anders Bin Laden with that single act of mass murder and terrorism became a murdering scumbag  worse than crazy old Merridith.  Sorry 

It seems that some people will look to justify anything. I find it eerie how Osama Bin Laden supporters defend him almost the exact  same way Silfren tries to justify and downplay Anders actions because of his ultimately "worthy cause". The idea that cold blooded mass murder is justified if it's ultimeately for a "greater good". Disturbing
 

[Silfren]

Aniki_21 wrote...

RetroActiv wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Aniki_21 wrote...

Yeah and she's a megalomaniacal psycho bit**.  I don't see anyone trying to defend her like some do with Anders. Anders also shares the responsiblity of the people she killed/attempted to kill along with the hundersdreds he killed personaly because he deliberately provoked it. 

Yeah, uh, no.  Whatever you think about Anders, he is not to blame for Meredith's calling for the Annulment.  She had already requested the Right from the Divine, and was just looking for an excuse.  She may have decided to use Anders' act as the excuse, but she knew that the Circle mages were not responsible--or at least she made no attempt whatsoever to determine their involvement, first.  She had the murderer right there in front of her, and she called for the Annulment.  It's unclear whether anyone in the Circle was in league with Anders, but what we see would imply that no Circle mages were.  Meredith all but admits that she's aware the Circle was not involved with the explosion, but further attempts to justify Annulment by claiming that the populace of Kirkwall will demand blood and she has no choice but to appease them.

A lot of people, pro-mage and pro-templar alike, have suggested that Anders guessed ahead of time that his action would provoke Meredith into trying to Annul the Circle.  I'm not sure that's true.  I think he knew he'd provoke something, but it's just as likely he thought that mages hearing of the Chantry's obliteration by an apostate might then be emboldened to rebel.  Regardless, Meredith had agency and could very well have chosen to respond to his action differently.  What he did certainly didn't force her hand, didn't force her to have no choice but to purge the Circle mages.

Errrr..... It's pretty obvious that he knew exactly what he was doing and what would happen after he murdered all those people. That was exactly what he wanted and even admited as much for crying out loud. You really are trying to minimize his atrocity as much as possible but there  is just no getting around the fact that Anders Bin Laden with that single act of mass murder and terrorism became a murdering scumbag  worse than crazy old Merridith.  Sorry 

It seems that some people will look to justify anything. I find it eerie how Osama Bin Laden supporters defend him almost the exact  same way Silfren tries to justify and downplay Anders actions because of his ultimately "worthy cause". The idea that cold blooded mass murder is justified if it's ultimeately for a "greater good". Disturbing
 

I'm not a supporter of terrorism.  But I am capable of comprehending the viewpoint of the freedom fighter, or terrorist--and quite frankly they are one and the same, what label you give them depends on your perception of the individual--and also of understanding that nothing is ever as cut and dried as we want to believe.  Yes, murder is murder and all that jazz, but that doesn't mean that it is not very, very critical to consider the motivations of the terrorist/freedom fighter in question, because it is, whether you accept it or not, a fact of history that terrorists/freedom fighters/revolutionaries have motivations behind their actions.  Nobody merely goes and explodes a building because they decided that morning that blowing up a building would be a nice change of pace from their morning stroll.

Anders may be a terrorist and a mass murderer, but that does not change the fact that his actions are the predictable result of institutionalized oppression.  And that actually does matter.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Aniki_21 wrote...

It seems that some people will look to justify anything. I find it eerie how Osama Bin Laden supporters defend him almost the exact  same way Silfren tries to justify and downplay Anders actions because of his ultimately "worthy cause". The idea that cold blooded mass murder is justified if it's ultimeately for a "greater good". Disturbing
 

Can we please be polite about this and not draw parallels between our fellow forumites and a mass-murdering f***head?

OK.  Back to your normally scheduled debate.

[happy_daiz]

Isn't this topic supposed to be about Sebastian?

[Aniki_21]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Can we please be polite about this and not draw parallels between our fellow forumites and a mass-murdering f***head?

OK.  Back to your normally scheduled debate.

Huh? Not sure which " mass-murdering f***head" you're refering to exactly but I'm not sure how you gathered that I was drawing parralels one of the mass murderers being discussed and any particular forumite. I did however briefly draw a comparison between the supporters/apologists of a real life mass murdering terrorist and a fictional one. But I don't think there's really anything else on thse issue that needs to be said at this point as it's way off topic as the previous poster has pointed out. 

Modifié par Aniki_21, 05 mai 2011 - 09:57 .

[Silfren]

Aniki_21 wrote...


Huh? Not sure which " mass-murdering f***head" you're refering to exactly but I'm not sure how you gathered that I was drawing parralels one of the mass murderers being discussed and any particular forumite. I did however briefly draw a comparison between the supporters/apologists of a real life mass murdering terrorist and a fictional one. But I don't think there's really anything else on thse issue that needs to be said at this point as it's way off topic as the previous poster has pointed out. 

Um.  They're referring to this:

Aniki_21 wrote...

It seems that some people will look to justify anything. I find it eerie
how Osama Bin Laden supporters defend him almost the exact  same way Silfren tries to justify and downplay Anders actions
because of his ultimately "worthy cause". The idea that cold blooded
mass murder is justified if it's ultimeately for a "greater good".
Disturbing

The bit where you're comparing supporters of bin Laden to my trying to "justify and downplay" what Anders did. And the mass-murdering f**khead they're referring to is bin Laden.  I believe the thrust of their point is that it's not nice to imply that I'm just like bin Laden because of my support for a fictional character. 

Yes, the thread's gone way off-topic.  I think some degree of thread-drift is inevitable, but ah well.  Back on topic: I dislike Sebastian because he's capricious, cowardly, makes excuses for evil by calling it the Maker's will, and blindly believes that the doctrine of a demonstrably evil institution is the solution to what ails you. 

Modifié par Silfren, 05 mai 2011 - 10:15 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Silfren wrote...
Back on topic: I dislike Sebastian because he's capricious, cowardly, makes excuses for evil by calling it the Maker's will, and blindly believes that the doctrine of a demonstrably evil institution is the solution to what ails you.  

The Chantry isn't actively malicious, but it IS passive in the face of injustice and abuse from its own templars.  Even Sebastian calls Elthina out on that.  Whether that qualifies as "evil" is up to each person's opinion, I guess.

[Silfren]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Back on topic: I dislike Sebastian because he's capricious, cowardly, makes excuses for evil by calling it the Maker's will, and blindly believes that the doctrine of a demonstrably evil institution is the solution to what ails you.  

The Chantry isn't actively malicious, but it IS passive in the face of injustice and abuse from its own templars.  Even Sebastian calls Elthina out on that.  Whether that qualifies as "evil" is up to each person's opinion, I guess.

Well, I was stating my opinion.  I thought that would be apparent without providing a disclaimer.  

An organization doesn't have to be actively malicious in order to be evil.  I'm thinking of all the Exalted Marches, the subjugation of mages, Grand Clerics who use "the maker will get to it in his own time, and I'll just wait to see what he does" to justify their refusal to put an end to templar abuse...this is gonna run dangerously close to pushing people's buttons, I guess, but while the Devs may not have intended the Chantry to be a direct parallel, it bears a close enough resemblance to a certain real-world religious institution that is guilty of a very long list of crimes, historically and currently, both large- and small-scale, and that similarity is enough to make me dislike any character who wants to pretend, as Sebastian does, the the Chantry is a benign institution, or that it's good qualities somehow outweigh or negate the bad.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Silfren wrote...

Well, I was stating my opinion.  I thought that would be apparent without providing a disclaimer.  

An organization doesn't have to be actively malicious in order to be evil.  I'm thinking of all the Exalted Marches, the subjugation of mages, Grand Clerics who use "the maker will get to it in his own time, and I'll just wait to see what he does" to justify their refusal to put an end to templar abuse...this is gonna run dangerously close to pushing people's buttons, I guess, but while the Devs may not have intended the Chantry to be a direct parallel, it bears a close enough resemblance to a certain real-world religious institution that is guilty of a very long list of crimes, historically and currently, both large- and small-scale, and that similarity is enough to make me dislike any character who wants to pretend, as Sebastian does, the the Chantry is a benign institution, or that it's good qualities somehow outweigh or negate the bad.

I know it was an opinion.  Sorry if I came off catty 

Personally, I agree with you.  I'm more utilitarian in my approach toward these things; good intentions aren't worth a crap if the outcomes are bad.  

I don't think the individual people in the Chantry are bad people (with some exceptions like Petrice).  The problem, at least in DA2, is that they're thoughtless and complacent in the face of injustice.  I doubt your average Chantry sister or even your average citizen thinks twice about it; the wronged parties are elves, qunari, mages...people who are either disliked or invisible.  It's comparable to civil rights movements IRL; the general public doesn't think twice about prejudice or abuse when it's so tacitly accepted, until someone raises hell and brings the issue to everyone's consciousness.

[Silfren]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I know it was an opinion.  Sorry if I came off catty 

Personally, I agree with you.  I'm more utilitarian in my approach toward these things; good intentions aren't worth a crap if the outcomes are bad.  

I don't think the individual people in the Chantry are bad people (with some exceptions like Petrice).  The problem, at least in DA2, is that they're thoughtless and complacent in the face of injustice.  I doubt your average Chantry sister or even your average citizen thinks twice about it; the wronged parties are elves, qunari, mages...people who are either disliked or invisible.  It's comparable to civil rights movements IRL; the general public doesn't think twice about prejudice or abuse when it's so tacitly accepted, until someone raises hell and brings the issue to everyone's consciousness.

Actually, I think I should apologize to you.  I didn't mean to sound waspish there.  I think I've just developed a kneejerk reaction to seeing people go "oh well that's just ur opinion not everyone has to agree with you" any time I don't provide a disclaimer every other sentence, so that half the time I see some statement about opinions and my brain auto-fills in what it expects to see.  Sorry about that.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Silfren wrote...
Actually, I think I should apologize to you.  I didn't mean to sound waspish there.  I think I've just developed a kneejerk reaction to seeing people go "oh well that's just ur opinion not everyone has to agree with you" any time I don't provide a disclaimer every other sentence, so that half the time I see some statement about opinions and my brain auto-fills in what it expects to see.  Sorry about that.

No worries   Baby otter kisses make everything better!

[Silfren]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Actually, I think I should apologize to you.  I didn't mean to sound waspish there.  I think I've just developed a kneejerk reaction to seeing people go "oh well that's just ur opinion not everyone has to agree with you" any time I don't provide a disclaimer every other sentence, so that half the time I see some statement about opinions and my brain auto-fills in what it expects to see.  Sorry about that.

No worries   Baby otter kisses make everything better!

OMG!  SQUEEE!

That is a lethal dose of cute that is right there.  You should put warning labels on that.  *dies of awwwwwwww*

[Amondra]

tehprincessJ wrote...

I've been avoiding becoming involved in the discussion here, because everyone is different, everyone has characters which do and don't speak to them, and I have no desire to change anyone's mind. Also, compairing a video game to 9/11 (especially right now) seems really silly, IMO. But don't let me stop you.
 
I wanted to point something out.

Amondra wrote...

True true. What it really comes down to for me is "Kill Anders or I go."  After I paid money for him thats what I get?!  I just felt cheated really.  I think it is for that reason I can't really like him. I just see wasted money, on what can feel like walls.

I didn't pay for Sebastian. But how is his "do this or I'm leaving" any different from Anders' "side with mages, or else!"?

I didn't pay for Anders he came in base game.  I didn't wait until the second half of the game to get him as well.  Also like I said most people kept Anders for game reasons of losing a healer.

I had to pay to get Seb, and because not everyone got him for free, I feel that was a cheap move to put us in the position.

Modifié par Amondra, 06 mai 2011 - 06:33 .