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[Eveangaline]

There's also the little conversation he has with Fenris about turning in your mage friends, where he says turning in the mages in your group is the right thing to do, and they should draw straws to see who does it. I love Fenris response of "please, if you want to turn them in, do it yourself, don't drag me into it". Like, if you're so sure that it's the right thing to do, DO IT. Don't try and pass it off to the others in the group.

[casedawgz]

Definitely the worst DLC companion Bioware has had. Compare him to Kasumi and its no contest. Compare him to Shale or Zaeed and its REALLY no contest. All of his stories are about how he used to be cool and now he's a priest. All of Zaeed's stories are about how he hilariously managed to survive ridiculous situations that result in the deaths of all of his friends.

[Calla S]

Why? Because most people are intolerant of those who speak their mind about their faith, which I find almost hilariously ironic. I'm the one person who said he was a favorite, and I stand by that. He's an interesting character with no less merit than any of the others in the party. Most people will **** and complain about anyone who's adamant about their beliefs, no matter what they are. I mean, I know I wanted to shove a boot in Anders' face every time he opened his mouth in the third act; this is no different.

People generally frown upon characters with strong religious footing, so I'm not surprised so many people dislike him. I think it's ridiculous, but hey, nothing I can do about that.

[Sarah1281]

Eveangaline wrote...

There's also the little conversation he has with Fenris about turning in your mage friends, where he says turning in the mages in your group is the right thing to do, and they should draw straws to see who does it. I love Fenris response of "please, if you want to turn them in, do it yourself, don't drag me into it". Like, if you're so sure that it's the right thing to do, DO IT. Don't try and pass it off to the others in the group.

He does what? Does he do this if Hawke is a mage, too? That freaking...

Calla S wrote...

Why? Because most people are intolerant of those who speak their mind about their faith, which I find almost hilariously ironic. I'm the one person who said he was a favorite, and I stand by that. He's an interesting character with no less merit than any of the others in the party. Most people will **** and complain about anyone who's adamant about their beliefs, no matter what they are. I mean, I know I wanted to shove a boot in Anders' face every time he opened his mouth in the third act; this is no different.

People generally frown upon characters with strong religious footing, so I'm not surprised so many people dislike him. I think it's ridiculous, but hey, nothing I can do about that.

Can we please stop taking a dislike of a character who just happens to be religious and making it all about their religion? THAT is what's ridiculous. It's perfectly possible to dislike Sebastian independent of his strong faith or because of what that faith leads him to say and do (plotting to report the mages in the group to the templars, for instance). It's not all about the fact that everyone who doesn't like him are apparently God-haters who despise anyone with a strong faith, you know.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 16 mars 2011 - 07:59 .

[casedawgz]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

There's also the little conversation he has with Fenris about turning in your mage friends, where he says turning in the mages in your group is the right thing to do, and they should draw straws to see who does it. I love Fenris response of "please, if you want to turn them in, do it yourself, don't drag me into it". Like, if you're so sure that it's the right thing to do, DO IT. Don't try and pass it off to the others in the group.

He does what? Does he do this if Hawke is a mage, too? That freaking...

Calla S wrote...

Why? Because most people are intolerant of those who speak their mind about their faith, which I find almost hilariously ironic. I'm the one person who said he was a favorite, and I stand by that. He's an interesting character with no less merit than any of the others in the party. Most people will **** and complain about anyone who's adamant about their beliefs, no matter what they are. I mean, I know I wanted to shove a boot in Anders' face every time he opened his mouth in the third act; this is no different.

People generally frown upon characters with strong religious footing, so I'm not surprised so many people dislike him. I think it's ridiculous, but hey, nothing I can do about that.

Can we please stop taking a dislike of a character who just happens to be religious and making it all about their religion? THAT is what's ridiculous. It's perfectly possible to dislike Sebastian independent of his strong faith or because of what that faith leads him to say and do (plotting to report the mages in the group to the templars, for instance). It's not all about the fact that everyone who doesn't like him are apparently God-haters who despise anyone with a strong faith, you know.

QFT. I love Leliana. I love Ashley in Mass Effect. Something about Sebastian though. It's not his religious faith. He's just a douchebag.

[Calla S]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Can we please stop taking a dislike of a character who just happens to be religious and making it all about their religion? THAT is what's ridiculous. It's perfectly possible to dislike Sebastian independent of his strong faith or because of what that faith leads him to say and do (plotting to report the mages in the group to the templars, for instance). It's not all about the fact that everyone who doesn't like him are apparently God-haters who despise anyone with a strong faith, you know.

Except it is the reason some people dislike him. I'm not saying everyone who dislikes Sebastian does so because omg he's a Chantry-obsesssed fool! Get religion out of my video game!, but it's there all the same. So, no, I won't stop. Then again, I just popped into this thread to say my piece and get it off of my chest, so nbd.

[Renessa]

I really like Sebastian as a character. That does not mean I approve of his religious zealotry or his stance on mages (I don't agree with Fenris on that and he was my Hawke's LI), but I like the way he is written.

When he asks for Ander's "head" in the end, of course it has nothing to do with justice. It is pure revenge. Anders killed the woman, who was more or less a mother to Sebastian since he was pushed into the Chantry. One does not think rational in a situation like that. Totally believable.

Interesting chars, likeable chars, even, don't always have to reflect one's own convicions. That's what makes them interesting....

[Sarah1281]

You're not the first person to say that. People have been using Sebastian's religion as their explanation for why he's not more popular since the beginning.

[leggywillow]

Eveangaline wrote...

There's also the little conversation he has with Fenris about turning in your mage friends, where he says turning in the mages in your group is the right thing to do, and they should draw straws to see who does it. I love Fenris response of "please, if you want to turn them in, do it yourself, don't drag me into it". Like, if you're so sure that it's the right thing to do, DO IT. Don't try and pass it off to the others in the group.

This is my biggest thing with Sebastian, I think.  Especially with Anders in the end.  If you are so sure that Anders needs to die, then why don't you try it?  My Hawke would have stepped in and prevented it, of course, but I would've respected him a lot more if he actually made a move to do it himself instead of stomping his foot and ordering Hawke to do it.  Just a scene of him starting to draw a dagger even.  Then threatening to bring an army to Kirkwall to raze it to the ground?  (Look around, Seb, I think we're well on the way to destroying the place ourselves, bro.)

Honestly, I'll probably come to appreciate his character more in the future when I get bored with my main companions and start playing around with party builds more.  As of right now, it's pretty useless to bring him along since Varric is the only archer rogue I'll ever need.

[Medhia Nox]

It's okay - I like knowing who would hate someone like Sebastian, it's an excellent filter for who I'd associate with.

[rak72]

Calla S wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Can we please stop taking a dislike of a character who just happens to be religious and making it all about their religion? THAT is what's ridiculous. It's perfectly possible to dislike Sebastian independent of his strong faith or because of what that faith leads him to say and do (plotting to report the mages in the group to the templars, for instance). It's not all about the fact that everyone who doesn't like him are apparently God-haters who despise anyone with a strong faith, you know.

Except it is the reason some people dislike him. I'm not saying everyone who dislikes Sebastian does so because omg he's a Chantry-obsesssed fool! Get religion out of my video game!, but it's there all the same. So, no, I won't stop. Then again, I just popped into this thread to say my piece and get it off of my chest, so nbd.

I agree with you, Calla.  Every complaint is about his preachiness.  It's ok to rail on about the opression of mages, or how the mages suck, but if you profess your love for the maker & get POed when someone blowes up your house with your "mother figure" & tons on innocents inside, you become a big whinny pain in the A $ $.  I took him with me everywhere, I haven't gotten the conversation about turning in mage compainions.  Of everyone, he had the most balanced view of the situation.  However, seeing how one of the mage compaions is a psycitzo terrorist, and the other causes the anihilation of her Dalish clan because she can't stop with the blood magic, it probably would have been a good idea to do so.

[Prophet Soup]

Calla S wrote...

Why? Because most people are intolerant of those who speak their mind about their faith, which I find almost hilariously ironic. I'm the one person who said he was a favorite, and I stand by that. He's an interesting character with no less merit than any of the others in the party. Most people will **** and complain about anyone who's adamant about their beliefs, no matter what they are. I mean, I know I wanted to shove a boot in Anders' face every time he opened his mouth in the third act; this is no different.

People generally frown upon characters with strong religious footing, so I'm not surprised so many people dislike him. I think it's ridiculous, but hey, nothing I can do about that.

Could not say it better myself.

[Thiefy]

basbaker wrote...

I was reading a who is your most/least favorite companion in the General Discussion forum and quickly came to realize that I was almost the only one who posted to it who actually enjoyed Sebastian.

My question is why does he spark such negativity?  Is it because people are anti-religion in general?  I suppose if I had to live with someone spouting the Chant of Light every time I turned around, it would gall after a short while.  But Sebastian seemed to me to be very decent - far moreso than any of the official LIs (with the possible exception of Merrill) - and not at all the kind that shoved his religion down someone else's throat.  I really enjoyed the progressive "banter" where he encourages Fenris to question what he believes in.  I enjoyed listening to his responses to Varric's and Anders' ribbing.  And I also found Sebastian to have a pretty sly humor that he managed to pull off without being unkind.  

He definitely goes hardline a couple of times - first when he wants his family avenged by killing the murderers down to the last man/woman, and then again when he demands the death of Anders or else he leaves.  But I think both of those cases are perfectly justified (ironically, Justice would have appreciated Sebastian's stand both times) and add depth to his character.  I think he's extremely well written and I wish I'd had more conversation with him.

Am I the only person who actually appreciates Nice?

The bolded part. I'm a religious person, but not devoutly. Sort of a non-praticising Catholic. I've had good friends get upset when they sneeze and I say "God bless you." It was as if I was trying to convert them with one single line of good will. Honestly they are so touchy about religion because they are scared of it, even fake ones.

/waits for flame throwers.

[casedawgz]

rak72 wrote...

Calla S wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Can we please stop taking a dislike of a character who just happens to be religious and making it all about their religion? THAT is what's ridiculous. It's perfectly possible to dislike Sebastian independent of his strong faith or because of what that faith leads him to say and do (plotting to report the mages in the group to the templars, for instance). It's not all about the fact that everyone who doesn't like him are apparently God-haters who despise anyone with a strong faith, you know.

Except it is the reason some people dislike him. I'm not saying everyone who dislikes Sebastian does so because omg he's a Chantry-obsesssed fool! Get religion out of my video game!, but it's there all the same. So, no, I won't stop. Then again, I just popped into this thread to say my piece and get it off of my chest, so nbd.

I agree with you, Calla.  Every complaint is about his preachiness.  It's ok to rail on about the opression of mages, or how the mages suck, but if you profess your love for the maker & get POed when someone blowes up your house with your "mother figure" & tons on innocents inside, you become a big whinny pain in the A $ $.  I took him with me everywhere, I haven't gotten the conversation about turning in mage compainions.  Of everyone, he had the most balanced view of the situation.  However, seeing how one of the mage compaions is a psycitzo terrorist, and the other causes the anihilation of her Dalish clan because she can't stop with the blood magic, it probably would have been a good idea to do so.

I would argue that the Merrill thing is on Marethari. Nobody asked her to become an abomination, and Hawke was there as a contingency plan for if Merrill was possessed. The risk was Merrill's to take and it was really the Keeper inserting herself in a situation that was not her business that got the clan wiped out.

[rak72]

I kept telling Merrill to stop playing with the demons, but she wouldn't listen. Now everyone is dead. They would all be alive if the templars took her away.

[casedawgz]

rak72 wrote...

I kept telling Merrill to stop playing with the demons, but she wouldn't listen. Now everyone is dead. They would all be alive if the templars took her away.

Or if you had selected "I'll take responsibility"

[Medhia Nox]

"You are required to do nothing, least of all believe." - Flemeth

Making no decisions in life is a very popular modern viewpoint. So - when people make a decision about how to live their life - and claim that that decision has lead to happiness - people get angry because they haven't found happiness yet.

[Sarah1281]

Anders going on about mage oppression all the time does get a little annoying but I think his detractors really have a bit more to go on than that. I know that for all that it was impossible for me to win with Fenris in my first game, I couldn't blame him for his rabildy anti-mage views given that he's being actively hunted by a mage who enslaved him and wishes to do so again or - failing that - kill him to get some lyrium back.

I also firmly believe that, in fictional mediums as in real life, you can just dislike someone for being annoying or without having to have a list ready to pull out. I dislike Sebastian but I don't hate him. He has his good points even if I don't feel that his faith is one of them if only because I don't feel a strong belief in something is, by itself, a positive OR negative thing. It's what that strong belief ends up meaning that's important.

That said, I was trying to put into words why I don't like Sebastian. It really isn't as easy as it sounds but here's some of the things about him that bug me:
His voice annoys me but that's not saying anything against him as a person. The fact that he won't make up his mind on if he's going to be a prince or a brother (which the Grand Cleric also calls him on) is annoying. The fact that, unlike virtually every other companion, he just asks someone else to take care of his need to kill those mercenaries instead of seeking someone to HELP him kill them annoys me. The fact that he knows that the Grand Cleric put her life in danger because she wanted to help Kirkwall and so, the minute Elthina dies and Anders does not, he threatens to destroy what's left of the place she died to protect annoys me. The fact that even if you agree that Anders needs to die, he makes you do it instead of doing it himself when we've had plenty of companions killing on their own (sometimes even if you tell them not to) annoys me. If the banter with Fenris about turning in the mages is real then that will annoy me.

Honestly, the fact that he has a strong faith and is a brother in the Chantry is not what annoys me about him.

[rak72]

casedawgz wrote...

rak72 wrote...

I kept telling Merrill to stop playing with the demons, but she wouldn't listen. Now everyone is dead. They would all be alive if the templars took her away.

Or if you had selected "I'll take responsibility"

Nobody would have to be taking responsibility for anything if she listened to me, or if I was able to turn her into the templars

[Sarah1281]

casedawgz wrote...

rak72 wrote...

I kept telling Merrill to stop playing with the demons, but she wouldn't listen. Now everyone is dead. They would all be alive if the templars took her away.

Or if you had selected "I'll take responsibility"

Hawke doesn't know that. By all rights, claiming you killed the Keeper should get them to attack you more than saying that the Keeper went and got herself possessed since Dalish policy involves killing possessed keepers anyway.

[casedawgz]

The fact that he doesn't join you in Act 1 when you go after the mercenaries speaks volumes of his crippling indecision. Murdered parents...a prince...strong desire for vengeance met with fear of what this might do to him in the eyes of God...incapable of making a decision...apparently Hamlet is recruitable in DA2.

[Medhia Nox]

He's the opposite of Anders - he wants vengeance, but when you talk to him, you can convince him that vengeance isn't the right way. He comes around and decides the Chantry is his place and gives up the prince stuff.

Unlike Anders who just decides to murder people for his own selfish goals.

[leggywillow]

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's okay - I like knowing who would hate someone like Sebastian, it's an excellent filter for who I'd associate with.

Awww, you wouldn't associate with me because I don't like Sebastian?  I'll grow on you.  Like a wart.  ::clings to Medhia's head like a baby sloth::

[syllogi]

casedawgz wrote...

rak72 wrote...

I kept telling Merrill to stop playing with the demons, but she wouldn't listen. Now everyone is dead. They would all be alive if the templars took her away.

Or if you had selected "I'll take responsibility"

Why should Hawke be responsible for the disaster she has caused?  And Merrill still doesn't acknowledge that she was wrong all along if her clan dies.  She cries about how they should have listened to her.  No lessons learned, no growth.  Hawke won't necessarily always be around to clean up her messes.

[rak72]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Anders going on about mage oppression all the time does get a little annoying but I think his detractors really have a bit more to go on than that. I know that for all that it was impossible for me to win with Fenris in my first game, I couldn't blame him for his rabildy anti-mage views given that he's being actively hunted by a mage who enslaved him and wishes to do so again or - failing that - kill him to get some lyrium back.

I also firmly believe that, in fictional mediums as in real life, you can just dislike someone for being annoying or without having to have a list ready to pull out. I dislike Sebastian but I don't hate him. He has his good points even if I don't feel that his faith is one of them if only because I don't feel a strong belief in something is, by itself, a positive OR negative thing. It's what that strong belief ends up meaning that's important.

That said, I was trying to put into words why I don't like Sebastian. It really isn't as easy as it sounds but here's some of the things about him that bug me:
His voice annoys me but that's not saying anything against him as a person. The fact that he won't make up his mind on if he's going to be a prince or a brother (which the Grand Cleric also calls him on) is annoying. The fact that, unlike virtually every other companion, he just asks someone else to take care of his need to kill those mercenaries instead of seeking someone to HELP him kill them annoys me. The fact that he knows that the Grand Cleric put her life in danger because she wanted to help Kirkwall and so, the minute Elthina dies and Anders does not, he threatens to destroy what's left of the place she died to protect annoys me. The fact that even if you agree that Anders needs to die, he makes you do it instead of doing it himself when we've had plenty of companions killing on their own (sometimes even if you tell them not to) annoys me. If the banter with Fenris about turning in the mages is real then that will annoy me.

Honestly, the fact that he has a strong faith and is a brother in the Chantry is not what annoys me about him.

Your points make more sense than he's too preachy, I can respect them.  I love his voice, I can listen to it all day.  About making up his mind - he took a vow which he takes seriously, yet he feels the duty he has to Starkhaven & his family.  It's a difficult decision that he dosen't take lightly.  Better to take your time than make a decision you will regret.  I would have liked Hawk to have more influence here, but game mechanics realy don't let Hawk influence anything.  The mercenaries - he's one man living in the chantry - I can't expect him to be able to take out a whole band of thugs that killed his entire family on his own.  It would have been nice if we could have taken him along for the quest, though.  I can understand him being in a rage after what Anders did, guess he figured the city was nothing but a bunch of heathens.  In his eyes, the poor lady gave her life for them, and they won't even give her justice.   I have no explination for why he wouldn't murder knife Anders himself, though.