286 réponses à ce sujet

[Stanley Woo]

marcbenigni wrote...

It shouldn't be necessary to handle the mod with kid gloves; he's a professional.  I've seen mods get into heated discussions on many forums, and I generally take it as a prerequisite that they have pretty thick skins.

This is true, but we are also human and this forum does have rules. While we might disagree on a great many things, we would appreciate if we were granted at least a modicum of courtesy and respect. No one likes getting screamed at, and it is difficult to participate in threads where a lot of screaming is done. This thread is doing just fine, in my opinion.

If Stan Woo chooses to argue in defense of DA2 that's totally cool, but his arguments need to be logical and defensible like anyone else's.  Versus the quote implying that it's impossible to cater to "all our imaginations" by allowing us to select a piece of armor.

All right, how about this one: despite us having given you a thing in Dragon Age Origins, we are not necessarily able to give you the same thing in Dragon Age II for a variety of reasons. Usually, the reason is zots. Having a comparatively short developement cycle means that we either had to work faster and/or on a smaller scale. Faster was already a given, what with time being inexorable and linear and all, but a smaller scale means sacrifices, compromises, and cuts compared to the original, gigantic, epic game.

One small, tiny feature may not mean much to the end-user, but it migth mean fundamental changes to the game for a developer. Features may have dependencies that are complex or extensive, as they are rarely as modular as people believe. Ultimately, it is a disagreement between us, the developer, and you, the player. We can only implement features a certain way; we can't create a system that will please everyone. As always, we do what we can witht he time and resources available and try to please as many people as we can. After the fact, we can pay attention to feedback, both here on the forums and elsewhere, and try to do better next time.

I'd take it as an act of good will if he didn't take any great offense at that, or lock the thread.

No offense taken, since you didn't try to offend.

[Aesieru]

Stanley Woo wrote...

marcbenigni wrote...

It shouldn't be necessary to handle the mod with kid gloves; he's a professional.  I've seen mods get into heated discussions on many forums, and I generally take it as a prerequisite that they have pretty thick skins.

This is true, but we are also human and this forum does have rules. While we might disagree on a great many things, we would appreciate if we were granted at least a modicum of courtesy and respect. No one likes getting screamed at, and it is difficult to participate in threads where a lot of screaming is done. This thread is doing just fine, in my opinion.

If Stan Woo chooses to argue in defense of DA2 that's totally cool, but his arguments need to be logical and defensible like anyone else's.  Versus the quote implying that it's impossible to cater to "all our imaginations" by allowing us to select a piece of armor.

All right, how about this one: despite us having given you a thing in Dragon Age Origins, we are not necessarily able to give you the same thing in Dragon Age II for a variety of reasons. Usually, the reason is zots. Having a comparatively short developement cycle means that we either had to work faster and/or on a smaller scale. Faster was already a given, what with time being inexorable and linear and all, but a smaller scale means sacrifices, compromises, and cuts compared to the original, gigantic, epic game.

One small, tiny feature may not mean much to the end-user, but it migth mean fundamental changes to the game for a developer. Features may have dependencies that are complex or extensive, as they are rarely as modular as people believe. Ultimately, it is a disagreement between us, the developer, and you, the player. We can only implement features a certain way; we can't create a system that will please everyone. As always, we do what we can witht he time and resources available and try to please as many people as we can. After the fact, we can pay attention to feedback, both here on the forums and elsewhere, and try to do better next time.

I'd take it as an act of good will if he didn't take any great offense at that, or lock the thread.

No offense taken, since you didn't try to offend.

Wrong though, don't you see what you've just admitted for no reason other than to admit it?

You've indicated you had a short development cycle, but you didn't have to, unless you either:

- Wanted a shorter one.

- Were forced into having one.

So yeah... you could easily have put all that stuff in, and the game would have been received better... you can't excuse yourself for having a "shorter time" when that's your own fault, either by your choices, or your inabilities.

Not to insult you, but you're trying to worm your way out of something that in all truth is entirely your responsibility.

No one here is at fault but you, the developers, and your board.

---

People would have waited, no one wanted you to force that out... NO ONE.

In fact, people weren't even sure a second would be made UNTIL you announced it...

You tried to make a new game, a sequel to a game that already had an expansion, you didn't need to change anything unless you wanted to, you DID ALL THIS because YOU WANTED TO... that means you retain responsibility for EVERYTHING, and legally, anyone can criticize you for your own errors, and legally you can defend against it, but you did this.. not us... we didn't force you to do something shorter.

Modifié par Aesieru, 15 mars 2011 - 06:16 .

[thesmallearth]

Stanley Woo wrote...


All right, how about this one: despite us having given you a thing in Dragon Age Origins, we are not necessarily able to give you the same thing in Dragon Age II for a variety of reasons. Usually, the reason is zots. Having a comparatively short developement cycle means that we either had to work faster and/or on a smaller scale. 

I cant believe you're stating that Bioware have not figured out how to bend time yet, you guys not thought about renting time on the The Large Hadron Collider <_<

[Galad22]

Stanley Woo wrote...

marcbenigni wrote...

It shouldn't be necessary to handle the mod with kid gloves; he's a professional.  I've seen mods get into heated discussions on many forums, and I generally take it as a prerequisite that they have pretty thick skins.

This is true, but we are also human and this forum does have rules. While we might disagree on a great many things, we would appreciate if we were granted at least a modicum of courtesy and respect. No one likes getting screamed at, and it is difficult to participate in threads where a lot of screaming is done. This thread is doing just fine, in my opinion.

If Stan Woo chooses to argue in defense of DA2 that's totally cool, but his arguments need to be logical and defensible like anyone else's.  Versus the quote implying that it's impossible to cater to "all our imaginations" by allowing us to select a piece of armor.

All right, how about this one: despite us having given you a thing in Dragon Age Origins, we are not necessarily able to give you the same thing in Dragon Age II for a variety of reasons. Usually, the reason is zots. Having a comparatively short developement cycle means that we either had to work faster and/or on a smaller scale. Faster was already a given, what with time being inexorable and linear and all, but a smaller scale means sacrifices, compromises, and cuts compared to the original, gigantic, epic game.

One small, tiny feature may not mean much to the end-user, but it migth mean fundamental changes to the game for a developer. Features may have dependencies that are complex or extensive, as they are rarely as modular as people believe. Ultimately, it is a disagreement between us, the developer, and you, the player. We can only implement features a certain way; we can't create a system that will please everyone. As always, we do what we can witht he time and resources available and try to please as many people as we can. After the fact, we can pay attention to feedback, both here on the forums and elsewhere, and try to do better next time.

I'd take it as an act of good will if he didn't take any great offense at that, or lock the thread.

No offense taken, since you didn't try to offend.

As Aesieru pointed out increase your development cycle. If you rush out game to save money you can't be surprised if people are disappointed when you cut out things that people liked.

So have a longer development cycle problem solved. I bet people would have been happier as well.

[Everwarden]

marcbenigni wrote...

You're not supposed to think. Just click the baddies.

But... but...

The preview said that I would: "Fight like a spartan, think like a general"! Just clicking on the baddies isn't thinking like a general? It's almost as if they lied abou-

Oh.

[Stanley Woo]

Galad22 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

You can find armour upgrades for Fenris that "would be perfect for Fenris." All games have limitations. We can't cater to every individual's imagination.

Why must you frustrate people with these sort of comments. You catered in da:o. Limiting peoples choices is annoying and people don't like it. Not all of us anyway.

We may have done a great job by you, Galad22, but we may also have frustrated Joe Gamer over there. If we change things, Joe Gamer is finally satisfied but you, Galad22, are disappointed. If you two have such diverse tastes or preferences in games, then one of you is bound to be disappointed no matter what feture we implement or how we do it. so we can either continue to disappoint but one of you, or we might try to change things so both are disappointed but less so.

This is a very simplified example, dealing with only two people and not the millions of potential fans out there or markets or demographics or whatever else.

[nightlordv]

Stanley Woo wrote...

marcbenigni wrote...

It shouldn't be necessary to handle the mod with kid gloves; he's a professional.  I've seen mods get into heated discussions on many forums, and I generally take it as a prerequisite that they have pretty thick skins.

This is true, but we are also human and this forum does have rules. While we might disagree on a great many things, we would appreciate if we were granted at least a modicum of courtesy and respect. No one likes getting screamed at, and it is difficult to participate in threads where a lot of screaming is done. This thread is doing just fine, in my opinion.

If Stan Woo chooses to argue in defense of DA2 that's totally cool, but his arguments need to be logical and defensible like anyone else's.  Versus the quote implying that it's impossible to cater to "all our imaginations" by allowing us to select a piece of armor.

All right, how about this one: despite us having given you a thing in Dragon Age Origins, we are not necessarily able to give you the same thing in Dragon Age II for a variety of reasons. Usually, the reason is zots. Having a comparatively short developement cycle means that we either had to work faster and/or on a smaller scale. Faster was already a given, what with time being inexorable and linear and all, but a smaller scale means sacrifices, compromises, and cuts compared to the original, gigantic, epic game.

One small, tiny feature may not mean much to the end-user, but it migth mean fundamental changes to the game for a developer. Features may have dependencies that are complex or extensive, as they are rarely as modular as people believe. Ultimately, it is a disagreement between us, the developer, and you, the player. We can only implement features a certain way; we can't create a system that will please everyone. As always, we do what we can witht he time and resources available and try to please as many people as we can. After the fact, we can pay attention to feedback, both here on the forums and elsewhere, and try to do better next time.

I'd take it as an act of good will if he didn't take any great offense at that, or lock the thread.

No offense taken, since you didn't try to offend.

So...then you are basically admitting that this game was rushed and that it isn't as epic as Origins? Interesting indeed.

[Hreterus]

How dare you Bioware?! How dare you create a game the way you want to?! Don't you know it's your duty to provide these nagging whiners with a game that they wanted?

[Nozybidaj]

Galad22 wrote...

As Aesieru pointed out increase your development cycle. If you rush out game to save money you can't be surprised if people are disappointed when you cut out things that people liked.

So have a longer development cycle problem solved. I bet people would have been happier as well.

You are assuming BW still sets their own dev cycle, which I would highly doubt.

The poster above you did have a very good point though that a lot of the changes were made because they decided to make them.  With the shorter development cycle sacrifices do indeed need to be made.  The sacrifices they choose to make and areas they applied new development seem to be the real contention around here.

We'll have to wait and see if DA3 is ever released what folks really thought.  Sales of DA2 should be strong simply by riding DA:O's coat tails.  Can DA3 do the same?

[Sanguinerin]

Kane-Corr wrote...

YES I agree with this! People need to realize it is also NOT realistic to be dressing up your partner, and scavenging the earth for countless items.....I mean, where DO you store all of that?!

Kane-Corr, I carried just as many items and left even more in storage than I ever did in Origins. It would have certainly lightened my inventory to be able to put some of that armor on companions. My inventory was almost always full, especially when I forgot to click "sell junk" at the stores.

Also, dragons and magic are not realistic. I can't walk down the street and blast lightning out of my hands at someone. I also can't carry several suits of armor on my person either. The boundaries of realism are going to be broken and stretched in a fantasy game.

[jwillis7]

i like there armor, i wish it would have changed a little every time it upgraded but i think it is much cooler having my people wearing different things instead of everyone wearing the exact same thing like in DAO, I wish the game told me about upgrading the armor though because i missed the ones in Act 1 because i did not know about it.

Mass Effect 2 you could not change any thing about companion armor except color and i did not care at all. I do not see why this is such a big deal.

I do agree though that not being able to change your companions rolls within there class was very frustrating. only 1 tank and 1 healer i mean come on, if your Hawke is not that then there are 2 party members you have to have. That is one of my big complaints over armor

[Stanley Woo]

EDIT: You know what, I'm not going to give up here.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 15 mars 2011 - 06:29 .

[Killa2k]

Stanley Woo wrote...

marcbenigni wrote...

It shouldn't be necessary to handle the mod with kid gloves; he's a professional.  I've seen mods get into heated discussions on many forums, and I generally take it as a prerequisite that they have pretty thick skins.

This is true, but we are also human and this forum does have rules. While we might disagree on a great many things, we would appreciate if we were granted at least a modicum of courtesy and respect. No one likes getting screamed at, and it is difficult to participate in threads where a lot of screaming is done. This thread is doing just fine, in my opinion.

If Stan Woo chooses to argue in defense of DA2 that's totally cool, but his arguments need to be logical and defensible like anyone else's.  Versus the quote implying that it's impossible to cater to "all our imaginations" by allowing us to select a piece of armor.

All right, how about this one: despite us having given you a thing in Dragon Age Origins, we are not necessarily able to give you the same thing in Dragon Age II for a variety of reasons. Usually, the reason is zots. Having a comparatively short developement cycle means that we either had to work faster and/or on a smaller scale. Faster was already a given, what with time being inexorable and linear and all, but a smaller scale means sacrifices, compromises, and cuts compared to the original, gigantic, epic game.

One small, tiny feature may not mean much to the end-user, but it migth mean fundamental changes to the game for a developer. Features may have dependencies that are complex or extensive, as they are rarely as modular as people believe. Ultimately, it is a disagreement between us, the developer, and you, the player. We can only implement features a certain way; we can't create a system that will please everyone. As always, we do what we can witht he time and resources available and try to please as many people as we can. After the fact, we can pay attention to feedback, both here on the forums and elsewhere, and try to do better next time.

I'd take it as an act of good will if he didn't take any great offense at that, or lock the thread.

No offense taken, since you didn't try to offend.

so only questions i get outta of all this is :-

1) if u needed a longer development cycle to improve the game why not put of the release date till uve completed the game and made into a vision of near perfection like alot of your other titles ?

2) So you are are reading the majority of complaints and taking stock so the majority of the people that have bought your games for ONE HELL OF a long time and baysically funded your rise to where you are now are going to be at least slightley happier with your future releases.

None of that is meant rudley im just being forward. I have every intention of buying ME3 and any expansions for any other titles and even a DA3 if one comes about which im sure will happen after the ending of DA2, and would love not to suffer this overall level of dissapointment again since i litterally wait for your releases to come out.

Edit:- damn he stopped talking b4 i posted...GJ peeps

Modifié par Killa2k, 15 mars 2011 - 06:27 .

[Jean de Valette]

Stanley Woo wrote...
All right, how about this one: despite us having given you a thing in Dragon Age Origins, we are not necessarily able to give you the same thing in Dragon Age II for a variety of reasons. Usually, the reason is zots. Having a comparatively short developement cycle means that we either had to work faster and/or on a smaller scale. Faster was already a given, what with time being inexorable and linear and all, but a smaller scale means sacrifices, compromises, and cuts compared to the original, gigantic, epic game.

Mr. Woo, with all due respects, I understand your predicament. But I won't be paying € 45 for your latest product. The "features" (or rather, the lack of) I've been reading about in this game are not worth paying full price. And I would advise anyone not to buy this game at the moment.

And furthermore I hope this was forced upon by your publisher, for I still refuse to believe that the company who made quality games like BG and KotOR would let us down so out of your own free will.

Thanks anyway for clearing things up.

[Zeppeli]

ZDProletariat wrote...

I enjoy this change. I enjoy customization as much as the next guy, but it gets ridiculous when you have an entire dungeon worth of items that you need to equip for four different characters, some overlapping.
Then when you finally get done getting them all equipped with the marginally better equipment, you realize Morrigan is wearing the most horribly ugly hat you've ever seen, and sten looks like a walking brick with steel girders. You are forced to mismatch just to wear the best gear until you get the late game gear sets.

In DA2, they just wear their cool looking outfits! It's fine! It's cool! If you still want to customize ugly different items, you still have Hawke!
People will complain about anything, won't they?

Yeah, just like in the JRPG as Final Fantasy! Consolization at its peak....

You are bubbling like a child... Do you want a cool armour? Than ask them to design better armours and outfits for the characters... Its better than a single outfit for sure....  But do not worry, they will relase DLCs with other outfits... Only 3$.....

[Galad22]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

You can find armour upgrades for Fenris that "would be perfect for Fenris." All games have limitations. We can't cater to every individual's imagination.

Why must you frustrate people with these sort of comments. You catered in da:o. Limiting peoples choices is annoying and people don't like it. Not all of us anyway.

We may have done a great job by you, Galad22, but we may also have frustrated Joe Gamer over there. If we change things, Joe Gamer is finally satisfied but you, Galad22, are disappointed. If you two have such diverse tastes or preferences in games, then one of you is bound to be disappointed no matter what feture we implement or how we do it. so we can either continue to disappoint but one of you, or we might try to change things so both are disappointed but less so.

This is a very simplified example, dealing with only two people and not the millions of potential fans out there or markets or demographics or whatever else.

I do see your point.

However DA2 hasn't exactly gotten stellar welcome among your fans. So clearly you have frustrated quite many people with your desing choices. I do hope you realise this.

[RicAlmighty]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

You can find armour upgrades for Fenris that "would be perfect for Fenris." All games have limitations. We can't cater to every individual's imagination.

Why must you frustrate people with these sort of comments. You catered in da:o. Limiting peoples choices is annoying and people don't like it. Not all of us anyway.

We may have done a great job by you, Galad22, but we may also have frustrated Joe Gamer over there. If we change things, Joe Gamer is finally satisfied but you, Galad22, are disappointed. If you two have such diverse tastes or preferences in games, then one of you is bound to be disappointed no matter what feture we implement or how we do it. so we can either continue to disappoint but one of you, or we might try to change things so both are disappointed but less so.

This is a very simplified example, dealing with only two people and not the millions of potential fans out there or markets or demographics or whatever else.

Really? This is what you're going with? BioWare would rather ****** off everyone equally rather than attempt to keep their core fans happy? That's a very interesting mission statement. Does Ray know about that one?

Well at least now you know what happens when you attempt to apply a ridiculously tight deadline to something as sophisticated and complex as game development... you don't do a good job. How about next time, we all wait a little longer to finish the game and try to make people happy rather than settling for the fact that "both are disappointed but less so."

Modifié par RicAlmighty, 15 mars 2011 - 06:31 .

[Galad22]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

As Aesieru pointed out increase your development cycle. If you rush out game to save money you can't be surprised if people are disappointed when you cut out things that people liked.

So have a longer development cycle problem solved. I bet people would have been happier as well.

You are assuming BW still sets their own dev cycle, which I would highly doubt.

The poster above you did have a very good point though that a lot of the changes were made because they decided to make them.  With the shorter development cycle sacrifices do indeed need to be made.  The sacrifices they choose to make and areas they applied new development seem to be the real contention around here.

We'll have to wait and see if DA3 is ever released what folks really thought.  Sales of DA2 should be strong simply by riding DA:O's coat tails.  Can DA3 do the same?

I am fairly sure people were assured EA wouldn't have too much effect on biowares games or dev cycles. If they now do clearly it was a mistake to merge with EA.

Especially if we can't trust on Biowares quality anymore.

[Hreterus]

RicAlmighty wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

You can find armour upgrades for Fenris that "would be perfect for Fenris." All games have limitations. We can't cater to every individual's imagination.

Why must you frustrate people with these sort of comments. You catered in da:o. Limiting peoples choices is annoying and people don't like it. Not all of us anyway.

We may have done a great job by you, Galad22, but we may also have frustrated Joe Gamer over there. If we change things, Joe Gamer is finally satisfied but you, Galad22, are disappointed. If you two have such diverse tastes or preferences in games, then one of you is bound to be disappointed no matter what feture we implement or how we do it. so we can either continue to disappoint but one of you, or we might try to change things so both are disappointed but less so.

This is a very simplified example, dealing with only two people and not the millions of potential fans out there or markets or demographics or whatever else.

Really? This is what you're going with? BioWare would rather ****** off everyone equally rather than attempt to keep their core fans happy? That's a very interesting mission statement. Does Ray know about that one?

Well at least now you know what happens when you attempt to apply a ridiculously tight deadline to something as sophisticated and complex as game development... you don't do a good job. How about next time, we all wait a little longer to finish the game and try to make people happy rather than settling for the fact that "both are disappointed."

Maybe you're no longer the "core-fans"?

[marcbenigni]

Stan, I appreciate the thoughtful and reasoned reply. Glad you didn't take offense. I'll keep all that separate from my opinions about the design decisions themselves, since I think I've already made myself clear there.

[nightlordv]

Stanley Woo wrote...

EDIT: You know what, I'm not going to give up here.

Putting words in your mouth? There were no words to put in there sir, you basically said flat out the game was rushed and wasn't as epic as the original. If you don't want the backlash that was going to ensue then pick your words carefully you know people are going to pounce on it.

[Mr11]

Stanley Woo wrote...

You can find armour upgrades for Fenris that "would be perfect for Fenris." All games have limitations. We can't cater to every individual's imagination.

Wow...really?  I cannot believe you just said that.  How hard is it to allow any character to use the pieces of equipement you find?  This isnt a new concept, you guys have done it before.  From a consumer standpoint it looks like you are being lazy (even if in fact that isn't the reason behind it, that is the perception)

[Aesieru]

Isn't Stanley just QA?

Can he really provide any answers, outside of the fact that he's one of the people who gave the quality stamp to what he played?

[Xewaka]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Having a comparatively short developement cycle means that we either had to work faster and/or on a smaller scale. Faster was already a given, what with time being inexorable and linear and all, but a smaller scale means sacrifices, compromises, and cuts compared to the original, gigantic, epic game.

One small, tiny feature may not mean much to the end-user, but it migth mean fundamental changes to the game for a developer. Features may have dependencies that are complex or extensive, as they are rarely as modular as people believe. Ultimately, it is a disagreement between us, the developer, and you, the player. We can only implement features a certain way; we can't create a system that will please everyone. As always, we do what we can witht he time and resources available and try to please as many people as we can. After the fact, we can pay attention to feedback, both here on the forums and elsewhere, and try to do better next time.

Personally, I believe you (as in, the DA team) bit more than you could chew in regarding to the changes you wanted to make from DA:O to DA 2. I think it was too ambitious of you to attempt graphical overhaul plus engine update plus combat redesign plus etcetera in a shorter development cycle. And sadly, it shows quite a bit ingame.

Modifié par Xewaka, 15 mars 2011 - 06:34 .

[Seitur]

Stanley Woo wrote...


We may have done a great job by you, Galad22, but we may also have frustrated Joe Gamer over there. If we change things, Joe Gamer is finally satisfied but you, Galad22, are disappointed. If you two have such diverse tastes or preferences in games, then one of you is bound to be disappointed no matter what feture we implement or how we do it. so we can either continue to disappoint but one of you, or we might try to change things so both are disappointed but less so.

This is a very simplified example, dealing with only two people and not the millions of potential fans out there or markets or demographics or whatever else.

Finally some statement from BW which made sense. Ok you had shoter develoment cycle - but that's your responisbility as Bioware EA divison (or are you structured still as searate studio?)developer and EA resonisility as publisher.

Seriosusly you cannot be suprised that people complain because as you said yourself changed game quite dramatically in comparision to it's prequel (not to mention 'spiritual precedesor').
So yeah I understand that you choosen or even that you "had to" choose. But don't be suprised that you lose consumers. I did not buy DA2 after playing a demo and full game at my friend's place because of choices you made.
With next game you release and I will be interested in (DA3 and maybe Old Republic) I will wait and try it throughly before I buy it for DA3 , and either wait for Trial or some kind of buddy invite system or whatevver there will be possible for OR. I just lost faith your studio provides games which I enjoy sorry. From  people I know in RL that played your games in past , ppl I know thru inet and from this and few others forums many people think similar to me.

I won't say GL because I am not interested that game I don't like and I am very disapointed with to succed.

Modifié par Seitur, 15 mars 2011 - 06:38 .