286 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr11]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

You can find armour upgrades for Fenris that "would be perfect for Fenris." All games have limitations. We can't cater to every individual's imagination.

"Cater".  Hmm... interesting word. 

Armor was more customizable in ME than in ME2.
Armor was more customizable in DA:O than in DA2. 

Whatever this is about, it's not about "catering".

It's about main streaming and reaching the widest audiance possible.  I get the reasoning but that doesn't mean you need to remove features, maybe just streamline them more.

[Galad22]

serthorn wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

You can find armour upgrades for Fenris that "would be perfect for Fenris." All games have limitations. We can't cater to every individual's imagination.

Uhm... but the OP is talking about basic rpg features..is the dressing of party members so fancy for Bioware now ??

They don't seem to have time for basic rpg features like diplomacy or dressing party members apparently.

I doubt they call their games rpgs for very long now.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Mr11 wrote...
The main problem I had as a consumer was the fact that I have grown accustomed to Bioware making games of stellar quality so much so that I am willing to shell out $60 to play a game they made, only to find out that the quality is not there (especially not $60 worth, are you kidding me?).  I am entitled to recieve whatever I get I suppose since I bought the game, but what I *expect* is something much better than this.

I watched the same thing happen to several computer companies when I worked in the retail sales and repair field.  They'd start out with stellar quality and customer service, and then change focus to profits-uber-alles, and make money on their rep for a few years until people caught on that the company was selling cut-rate crap with the same name badge on it, and suddenly sales dropped.  Gateway was swallowed up by Acer after going down that road.  Dell's consumer division is crap now.  Etc.

[Killa2k]

Tbh i think there is going to be alot of trial and error DA2 seams to have let alot of people down, but theyre are also a good few poeple from the forums that are expressing their joy over how gr8 a game it is. From my point of view its not a total failure just some regretable mistakes like customization and such etc etc etc the never ending list of topics flying up the forums..time will tell what will prevail i guess.

[Axis Swordarm]

"I, for one, am proud of what we accomplished with Dragon Age II and I look forward to playing it when time permits"

I understand dev timetables and the inevitable rush you guys were under. Allocation of time was obviously placed in the wrong areas or fundamentally misunderstanding what made Origins a decent game with flaws rather than working on those flaws to create a better game.

I envy you for not having to pay for the game and not having played it so far. When you do I think you'll understand exactly where everyone is coming from here. There is no pride in creating such a flawed game that knocks off a streak of hits that has been years in the making; there is however an understanding that the hubris shown in development videos and on these boards, let alone in the actual game, is not something to repeat.

[Stanley Woo]

Perhaps I should have clarified that I look forward to playing it for fun when time permits. in testing the game, i've certainly played it more than a few times. that is part of the job description, after all.

[marcbenigni]

tbh what will really make or break the future is weather

Best freudian slip ever, particularly since I'm feeling a little guilty for obsessing over this game (and forum, frankly) while the world is slowly falling apart around us.

[Axis Swordarm]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Perhaps I should have clarified that I look forward to playing it for fun when time permits. in testing the game, i've certainly played it more than a few times. that is part of the job description, after all.

Would you class enemies that appear out of nowhere every fight as a bug, when you were testing?

There's quite a few moments like this outside of my larger concerns that I cannot fathom out being in the game.  The extra items throughout the game that cannot be equipped that this thread raised, and this (though it's combat related) is another oversight that adds to the detriment of the game.

I understand you personally had no hand in decisions and I respect you coming to talk, but there are going to be difficulties because of your level in the Company as people naturally gravitate toward blaming you for high end design decisions and you have to defend.  The problem is you can only give the short view and the explanation we already know.

I suppose the big question is where are the posters from before the game released in positions that impacted this?  I see them in success threads but never here or in constructive feedback answering why X happens.  Apparently they thought it was a good idea and praised it in previews, they should defend it now everyone has it.  I don't respect the fact they left you alone to handle this volume of posts, as you take the flak.

Modifié par Axis Swordarm, 15 mars 2011 - 07:42 .

[Mooh Bear]

Stanley Woo wrote...

marcbenigni wrote...

If Stan Woo chooses to argue in defense of DA2 that's totally cool, but his arguments need to be logical and defensible like anyone else's.  Versus the quote implying that it's impossible to cater to "all our imaginations" by allowing us to select a piece of armor.

All right, how about this one: despite us having given you a thing in Dragon Age Origins, we are not necessarily able to give you the same thing in Dragon Age II for a variety of reasons. Usually, the reason is zots. Having a comparatively short developement cycle means that we either had to work faster and/or on a smaller scale. Faster was already a given, what with time being inexorable and linear and all, but a smaller scale means sacrifices, compromises, and cuts compared to the original, gigantic, epic game.

One small, tiny feature may not mean much to the end-user, but it migth mean fundamental changes to the game for a developer. Features may have dependencies that are complex or extensive, as they are rarely as modular as people believe. Ultimately, it is a disagreement between us, the developer, and you, the player. We can only implement features a certain way; we can't create a system that will please everyone. As always, we do what we can witht he time and resources available and try to please as many people as we can. After the fact, we can pay attention to feedback, both here on the forums and elsewhere, and try to do better next time.

I am looooooong time Bioware fan, since BG1 and I played (and enjoyed) almost all your games. Therefore, I'm really surprised with the whole DA2 story. Nowadays, true, incremental sequels are released on a 2 years basis (same studio) at best.  BG1 and 2 were released 23 months apart, there was no real expansion for BG1 and BG2 was very close to BG1. DA:O and DA2 were released 16 months apart, with DLC and an extension in between. I'm curious to know what was the rationale for even trying to get a sequel out in such a short time (that's a rhetorical question, everyone knows why)? It's fine to say the devs were short-handed and under a lot of time pressure, but then who's to blame? Somebody proposed the idea of having a sequel out by Spring 2011. Somebody else agreed.

Modifié par Mooh Bear, 15 mars 2011 - 07:37 .

[Akka le Vil]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Without deadlines, you get feature creep and you begin to get unfocused. We are still trying to improve the way we make games, so with every project, we do things slightly differently. You can see the kinds of things we tried on Dragon Age II by listening to some of the interviews of Mike Laidlaw and Mark Darrah.

Games always need a longer development cycle. There is never enough time to make the game the "vision of near perfection" that you want. Sometimes it works out beautifully, and sometimes we need more work. I, for one, am proud of what we accomplished with Dragon Age II and I look forward to playing it when time permits. Others may disagree, and that's fine. It's a very different animal than Origins was. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up to the individual player to decide, and that's one reason we have these forums: so you can tell us.

I'm sorry Stanley, but this just doesn't hold.
Sure game can ALWAYS benefit from "more time and more ressources", but it's just like we call here "smashing doors already opened" (that is, it's saying something completely obvious which doesn't actually answer the problem).
Considering the development time of DA2 has been ESPECIALLY short, you can't really use it as an excuse. It's more of an error. It sounds exaclty like "I made a rushed job because I didn't take the time to do it properly". Explanation, yes, justification absolutely not. The answer here would be : "then you should have taken the time to do it properly".

This kind of "excuse" just tend to prove that YES in fact you've been pressured by EA to release half-baked product, or, worse, that you just CHOSE to release a half-baked product.
If it's the first, then it's particularly egregious, because of the very numerous time you defended the situation by saying "EA is not evil, they don't impact the quality of our work". It would mean you LIED, plain and simple.
If it's the second... Well, nothing can really justify the "I didn't bother", right ?

In any case, you released a half-baked game where you cut corner because you didn't took the time to polish it. You may be proud of the result taking into account the timeline, but such a constrained timeline is already a fault you should not have made - or that was forced upon you, in which case you should not have claimed that you hadn't this outside pressure.

[Nick Fox]

Galad22 wrote...

serthorn wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

You can find armour upgrades for Fenris that "would be perfect for Fenris." All games have limitations. We can't cater to every individual's imagination.

Uhm... but the OP is talking about basic rpg features..is the dressing of party members so fancy for Bioware now ??

They don't seem to have time for basic rpg features like diplomacy or dressing party members apparently.

I doubt they call their games rpgs for very long now.

As they should due to beeing after CoD players. A bit harsh perhaps but from Stanly W comments here there is absolutley nothing to make me belive they care for their old fanbase, so why should a man like myself care about BW and their future anymore ?

Everybody wants more sales nothing wrong with that but to let you longtime fans down like this...its just sickening to tell you the truth. New players mean more than old ones, not even on par with new potentials, come on!
Thats how I read it anyway.

[Killa2k]

Axis Swordarm wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Perhaps I should have clarified that I look forward to playing it for fun when time permits. in testing the game, i've certainly played it more than a few times. that is part of the job description, after all.

Would you class enemies that appear out of nowhere every fight as a bug in your testing?

actually if u look at it correctly in its whole its just a logical business model that would decide weather or not they will continue using theyre new ideas or have a rethink...if it costs them money in the long run it will ofcourse not be beneficial....if u didnt get that well i cant help u.. personally id love them to have a total rethink but since theyres alot of people that seam to like the new game aswell as alot that dont it will ofcourse be debateable what will happen

Modifié par Killa2k, 15 mars 2011 - 07:40 .

[Sanguinerin]

(Addressing your post a bit, Killa2k) I would never say that Dragon Age II is a terrible game, although all of my posts might allude to that sort of sentiment. I certainly enjoyed the game.

However, after having replayed DAO and Awakening, ME and ME2, and even NWN (the latter I played for about 5-6 years and always enjoyed it), DA2 was disappointing. Perhaps I placed BioWare on a pedestal and in that regard it just might be my fault for expecting more, but the overall delivery was simply disappointing in several areas that I didn't foresee.

I'm most likely going to play it again, but there isn't a burning desire to do so as there usually is. The bottom line is that I'm accustomed to BioWare giving me a tale but letting me experience the path my way (within their different paths). In Dragon Age II, there's a general overarching feeling of inevitability in everything. Your choices don't really come across as mattering in any kind of special way. I was even more disheartened when David Gaider said they cut the option to save Leandra (in the Leandra DLC thread).

If one was inclined, I would say this is where a developer might step in and give me the "we can't please everyone all the time" line, so I'll just put it out there myself. I wasn't entirely disappointed in Dragon Age II but it's definitely a new reaction for me to not be thrilled at playing a BioWare game over and over again. =\\

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 15 mars 2011 - 07:42 .

[Killa2k]

HallowedWarden wrote...

(Addressing your post a bit, Killa2k) I would never say that Dragon Age II is a terrible game, although all of my posts might allude to that sort of sentiment. I certainly enjoyed the game.

However, after having replayed DAO and Awakening, ME and ME2, and even NWN (the latter I played for about 5-6 years and always enjoyed it), DA2 was disappointing. Perhaps I placed BioWare on a pedestal and in that regard it just might be my fault for expecting more, but the overall delivery was simply disappointing in several areas that I didn't foresee.

I'm most likely going to play it again, but there isn't a burning desire to do so as there usually is. The bottom line is that I'm accustomed to BioWare giving me a tale but letting me experience the path my way (within their different paths). In Dragon Age II, there's a general overarching feeling of inevitability in everything. Your choices don't really come across as mattering in any kind of special way. I was even more disheartened when David Gaider said they cut the option to save Leandra (in the Leandra DLC thread).

If one was inclined, I would say this is where a developer might step in and give me the "we can't please everyone all the time" line, so I'll just put it out there myself. I wasn't entirely disappointed in Dragon Age II but I've been having to experience a moderately pleased state rather than a thrilled or excited one.

id say thats pretty accurate to how alot of people are feeling

Modifié par Killa2k, 15 mars 2011 - 07:42 .

[Riloux]

Stanley Woo wrote...

All right, how about this one: despite us having given you a thing in Dragon Age Origins, we are not necessarily able to give you the same thing in Dragon Age II for a variety of reasons. Usually, the reason is zots. Having a comparatively short developement cycle means that we either had to work faster and/or on a smaller scale. Faster was already a given, what with time being inexorable and linear and all, but a smaller scale means sacrifices, compromises, and cuts compared to the original, gigantic, epic game.

One small, tiny feature may not mean much to the end-user, but it migth mean fundamental changes to the game for a developer. Features may have dependencies that are complex or extensive, as they are rarely as modular as people believe. Ultimately, it is a disagreement between us, the developer, and you, the player. We can only implement features a certain way; we can't create a system that will please everyone. As always, we do what we can witht he time and resources available and try to please as many people as we can. After the fact, we can pay attention to feedback, both here on the forums and elsewhere, and try to do better next time.

If that's the case, I think I would have preferred a smaller game where you actually kept basic RPG features intact. 

Modifié par Riloux, 15 mars 2011 - 07:44 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nick Fox wrote...
Everybody wants more sales nothing wrong with that but to let you longtime fans down like this...its just sickening to tell you the truth.

It's wrong when it comes at the expense of taking pride in your work and getting it done right, at the expense of integrity -- personal, artistic, etc.

Nick Fox wrote...
New players mean more than old ones, not even on par with new potentials, come on!
Thats how I read it anyway.

Look at how so many companies give special deals to new customers that they flatly refuse to give to existing customers.  In the minds of too many companies "growth" and snagging new customers is always more important than their existing relationships. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

HallowedWarden wrote...

(Addressing your post a bit, Killa2k) I would never say that Dragon Age II is a terrible game, although all of my posts might allude to that sort of sentiment. I certainly enjoyed the game.

However, after having replayed DAO and Awakening, ME and ME2, and even NWN (the latter I played for about 5-6 years and always enjoyed it), DA2 was disappointing. Perhaps I placed BioWare on a pedestal and in that regard it just might be my fault for expecting more, but the overall delivery was simply disappointing in several areas that I didn't foresee.

I'm most likely going to play it again, but there isn't a burning desire to do so as there usually is. The bottom line is that I'm accustomed to BioWare giving me a tale but letting me experience the path my way (within their different paths). In Dragon Age II, there's a general overarching feeling of inevitability in everything. Your choices don't really come across as mattering in any kind of special way. I was even more disheartened when David Gaider said they cut the option to save Leandra (in the Leandra DLC thread).

If one was inclined, I would say this is where a developer might step in and give me the "we can't please everyone all the time" line, so I'll just put it out there myself. I wasn't entirely disappointed in Dragon Age II but it's definitely a new reaction for me to not be thrilled at playing a BioWare game over and over again. =

Well said.

[DownyTif]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Killa2k wrote...

1) if u needed a longer development cycle to improve the game why not put of the release date till uve completed the game and made into a vision of near perfection like alot of your other titles ?

Without deadlines, you get feature creep and you begin to get unfocused. We are still trying to improve the way we make games, so with every project, we do things slightly differently. You can see the kinds of things we tried on Dragon Age II by listening to some of the interviews of Mike Laidlaw and Mark Darrah.

Games always need a longer development cycle. There is never enough time to make the game the "vision of near perfection" that you want. Sometimes it works out beautifully, and sometimes we need more work. I, for one, am proud of what we accomplished with Dragon Age II and I look forward to playing it when time permits. Others may disagree, and that's fine. It's a very different animal than Origins was. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up to the individual player to decide, and that's one reason we have these forums: so you can tell us.

2) So you are are reading the majority of complaints and taking stock so the majority of the people that have bought your games for ONE HELL OF a long time and baysically funded your rise to where you are now are going to be at least slightley happier with your future releases.

None of that is meant rudley im just being forward. I have every intention of buying ME3 and any expansions for any other titles and even a DA3 if one comes about which im sure will happen after the ending of DA2, and would love not to suffer this overall level of dissapointment again since i litterally wait for your releases to come out.

I can't promise that we will always agree on what make s a game great, or that you will always love the games we produce. But we will always strive to improve on what we did before, and we will always be passionate about the games we make, because we're gamers too. And we will always be open to feedback from our community.

Just, you know, try to keep the screaming to a dull roar, please. Thank you.

First of all, thanks for participating in this discussion Stanley.

I'm a dev in real life (not games) and I know what you are talking about when you say that a feature is maybe simple to the user but complicated to implement. But I too share the opinion of people saying that you are the only ones to blame for the lack of time. Not you, each developper, because even if you can say your opinions in meetings, I doubt you are the ones that decide. But Bioware in general (see below).

To your credits, you have the reputation to produce high quality games. Bioware is renowned for their stories and the way it is presented, the decision system, their characters, the worlds they create, the customization you allow, the little details (I mean, each planet has a description in ME!!!). I'm a big fan. I played and extremely enjoyed: BG, BG2, NWN1, Kotor, DA1, ME1, ME2. I'm used to what Bioware delivers and I was more than happy to pre-buy DA2 since it was called Dragon Age 2 and MAINLY because... it's from Bioware.

If I look at the facts, the only thing that changed (well, as a public information anyway) it's that now you are not indie anymore, EA is your publisher. I cannot imagine Bioware deciding to release DA2 in such a short time frame by themselves. That's not how Bioware operates. you don't rush games, especially when money will come from other Bioware projects (ME3, TOR). So when I say that you are the only ones to blame it's because Bioware decided to be part of EA (whatever the reason was good or not).

Even if you are proud of what you made, as stated in your previous post, you can't ignore that there are flaws that are not what Bioware produces usually. Many things are a matter of opinions, but there are flaws in DA2, you admitted it by saying that you have to make compromises with the lack of time. I also understand that you probably can't say the things you want in here, since you probably have to be politically correct with your employer/publisher. But, I sure hope you learn from the present experience as a company. In me, you haven't lost a customer because you created so many great games that entertained me for many hours, I can forgive you for what Dragon Age 2 is. You have lost a pre-buyer customer though (or call this a blind buyer). I'll have to read and try before buying the next Bioware game. I wanted to pre-order The Old Republic, I won't. I wanted to pre-order ME3 (which I'm reallllly looking for), I won't. But I'm more than happy to give you another chance because of your pedigree. You are humans and everybody can make mistakes.

So please Bioware, learn from the present experience and build on this. 

PS: I will write a personal review (as I did for ME1 and ME2) when I finish DA2, so I won't comment "my flaws" here.

[Stanley Woo]

I appreciate all the comments sincerely given. Thank you.

[Hreterus]

"Everybody wants more sales nothing wrong with that but to let you
longtime fans down like this...its just sickening to tell you the truth."

This kind of attitude is what I was talking about.

I wish Bioware would follow Vanderbilts footsteps once in a while...
"The public be damned!"

[Shatterkiss]

Hreterus wrote...

"Everybody wants more sales nothing wrong with that but to let you
longtime fans down like this...its just sickening to tell you the truth."

This kind of attitude is what I was talking about.

I wish Bioware would follow Vanderbilts footsteps once in a while...
"The public be damned!"

They did.  Hence, all this...

[DownyTif]

HallowedWarden wrote...
...
but it's definitely a new reaction for me to not be thrilled at playing a BioWare game
...

That's how I feel too, for the first time of my life (that I can remember) in a Bioware game.

[Tirigon]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Perhaps I should have clarified that I look forward to playing it for fun when time permits. in testing the game, i've certainly played it more than a few times. that is part of the job description, after all.

Wow I envy you for your job. Being payed for playing games before they´re even released must be heaven:)

[Killa2k]

DownyTif wrote...

HallowedWarden wrote...
...
but it's definitely a new reaction for me to not be thrilled at playing a BioWare game
...

That's how I feel too, for the first time of my life (that I can remember) in a Bioware game.

definatley...

[Stanley Woo]

Tirigon wrote...
Wow I envy you for your job. Being payed for playing games before they´re even released must be heaven:)

it's a fulfilling job, sure, but I'm not sure if anyone should "envy" me for it. Being paid to to play games sounds fun, but you can't put it down when you get bored. You can't go and play another game once you're "done." And you get to see all the bugs, things that eventually get cut, and some awesome things made less awesome over time (or maybe you just get jaded after a while).

On the other hand, and this is the stuff you can envy me for, I get get to see a game built from the ground up. I get to work with dozens of highly passionate, talented people who love games as much as I do. And I get to critique and suggest and discuss things about the game that nobody outside the project will ever hear about. i get to see levels being built and implemented. I get to hear temp VO. I get to see how the translators work. i get to giggle maniacally when the forums starts speculating on story, characters, and plots.

And despite everything, I still consider it a plus that I get to hang out with all you guys here on the forums and talk about the game. Because you guys are awesome, even if we don't always agree on stuff and things.