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[Ace Attorney]

Despite what many believe, Auto Attacking with a Shield and Sword of equal quality is just as strong as Auto Attacking with a Two Hander of equal quality.

Zhel_Ryn wrote...

You're trading a wider arc (25% vs 33%) for a lot of survivability from your Shield.

The idea is to get as much as you can out of your Auto Attacks . This means the Vanguard Tree and Berserker Tree (and consequently the Battlemaster's Stamina Skills) are your Bread and Butter.

I was thinking of something like this (not learned in that order of course):
http://biowarefans.c...elDEvHGInpNL0bU

Anyone ever done anything like this? 

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 18 mars 2011 - 01:37 .

[rumination888]

I tried Berserker, but found it lackluster compared to Reaver for shield warriors.
With the added mitigation that a shield provides, you can easily hover below half health for a long time and reap the huge boost to damage. Fervor plays off Massacre very well, too. Without Berserker, you can skip adding points into willpower entirely. (personally, I took Templar instead of Berserker as my second spec for the huge +50% boost to magic resistance... all the armor a shield provides doesn't do any good when you're up against against non-physical enemies)

Looking over your build, i'm surprised you didn't take Disperse and Assault + Battery. Scatter with its Disperse upgrade against a disoriented mob, with Cleave up, can easily net you over 3000+ non-crit damage against high armored targets on nightmare. Assault does just as much, but with a shorter arc and lower cooldown. Those abilities alone will trump anything you can pick up in the specialization trees.

[Lialdia]

I am going through right now with Sword and Shield, however not on Nightmare since I have no intention of dragging a heal bot of any sorts around, so keep that in mind.

That said, I believe it will work, depending on the rest of your party make up. With the addition of friendly fire, you will have to be extra careful with your area effect abilities, especially when using the damage increases from Vanguard. This will severely limit your party choice if you do not wish to set everyone on Passive with completely cleared Tactic window to try and micromanage each action (and with the current camera and system, I personally don't enjoy doing that, but that is my take on it and should hopefully not affect your decision).

Too much tea, too much rambling, let's talk build then..

Fully stacking Str/Con and skipping Dex/Cun entirely seems like the way to go. Though I am quite curious if you could get away with having just enough Str/Con for your weapon, with Dex/Cun rating for equipping Rogue gear with +Crit on it.

Looking at the build you posted, it seems very focused on single-target killing power (that smaller attack cone does prevent some auto-attack damage after all, even if it's just 1 less monster most of the time) not to mention Scatter and Shield Bash will knock opponents away from you when used, wasting some of the Cleave's duration to re-acquire the target(s).
So basically you will simply be running sustainables, and activating damage increasing abilities to hopefully tear something down fast.

I will be curious to hear how it's going, as the build I am running at the moment is aswell focused on damage instead of tanking, but my choices are entirely different due to the party make-up I wanted.

[Ace Attorney]

rumination888 wrote...

I tried Berserker, but found it lackluster compared to Reaver for shield warriors.
With the added mitigation that a shield provides, you can easily hover below half health for a long time and reap the huge boost to damage. Fervor plays off Massacre very well, too. Without Berserker, you can skip adding points into willpower entirely. (personally, I took Templar instead of Berserker as my second spec for the huge +50% boost to magic resistance... all the armor a shield provides doesn't do any good when you're up against against non-physical enemies)

Looking over your build, i'm surprised you didn't take Disperse and Assault + Battery. Scatter with its Disperse upgrade against a disoriented mob, with Cleave up, can easily net you over 3000+ non-crit damage against high armored targets on nightmare. Assault does just as much, but with a shorter arc and lower cooldown. Those abilities alone will trump anything you can pick up in the specialization trees.

Good point, on both accounts. Just thowing ideas around.

[Zhel_Ryn]

As far as best fit goes, an one handed auto attack machine is best for berserker. 1H/2H weapons have the same dps, but 1H have a faster attack speed. More hits = more Berserk usage, just gotta watch the stamina. It's issue will come in when every attack they dish is subject to glancing blows.

Fully upgraded, Berserk gives 0.75 damage per WIL (vs. 0.5 per STR). Stamina gear is also extremely abundant as well.

Your talent build looks fine to me. Late game you could respec and toss out pretty much all of the S/S talents due to immunities on items. The only talents I would add would be Bolster, and Second Wind if you figure out a good chain of talents to burn at the start/situationally.

Reaver is a keeper if just for Blood Frenzy. Templar though, unless you're going to use the talents you need to get Annulment, is not needed. 50% Magic Resistance is definitely nice, but I've only had two, maybe three fights that I felt it was a well spent talent. Rest of the times, there's only ever been one, maybe two magic users per fight that were actual threats (blood mage, saarebas, arcane horror, desire demon). And of those, the desire demons were the only ones that could survive focus fire long enough that stun locking would help.

Modifié par Zhel_Ryn, 15 mars 2011 - 06:55 .

[Ace Attorney]

Zhel_Ryn wrote...

As far as best fit goes, an one handed auto attack machine is best for berserker. 1H/2H weapons have the same dps, but 1H have a faster attack speed. More hits = more Berserk usage, just gotta watch the stamina. It's issue will come in when every attack they dish is subject to glancing blows.

Anyone that could confirm this?

Zhel_Ryn wrote...

Fully upgraded, Berserk gives 0.75 damage per WIL (vs. 0.5 per STR). Stamina gear is also extremely abundant as well.

I wouldn't say that all the time, as I think Berserk is X% of your current Stamina (Damage: +10/+15% of remaining stamina).

Zhel_Ryn wrote...

Your talent build looks fine to me. Late game you could respec and toss out pretty much all of the S/S talents due to immunities on items. The only talents I would add would be Bolster, and Second Wind if you figure out a good chain of talents to burn at the start/situationally.

I thought they where there, I mentioned them though.:innocent:

Zhel_Ryn wrote...

Reaver is a keeper if just for Blood Frenzy. Templar though, unless you're going to use the talents you need to get Annulment, is not needed. 50% Magic Resistance is definitely nice, but I've only had two, maybe three fights that I felt it was a well spent talent. Rest of the times, there's only ever been one, maybe two magic users per fight that were actual threats (blood mage, saarebas, arcane horror, desire demon). And of those, the desire demons were the only ones that could survive focus fire long enough that stun locking would help.

Blood Frenzy is too good.

[Zhel_Ryn]

True on the current stamina, but that just makes it less useful overall. =P Top end is 0.75 though (5x0.15).

[Ace Attorney]

Then perhaps it is better to drop Berserker as it requires heavy will investment and just gets wearker over time, focus on Reaver and drop points in a few Templar skills?

I think Berseker could be used as a Stand in after you burst your SnS Skills and recover with Bolster / Second Wind while the SnS skills are on cooldown.
Basically:
Activate Damage buffs like Cleave, Sacrificial Frenzy, Might, etc.
SnS Skill Burst
Bolster / Second Wind
Auto Attack until cooldowns are up
Rinse and Repeat

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 15 mars 2011 - 08:20 .

[Zhel_Ryn]

Weaker over time by itself yes, but with a higher stamina gain per kill (Deathblow), Bolster, and Second Wind can keep your stamina high. Can't forget either that the +damage is before any % boost you get (might, cleave, frenzy, etc.) so it's a bigger gain than it gives on it's own.

I had ~36 CUN when I hit 42STR/32CON. let's dump those points into WIL (37 with base 11) giving 235 stamina. This would net Hawke +35 at full stamina. 50% stamina (+17.5) is quite feasible as a constant, but at full that doubles base damage (which (as I understand) is before talent multipliers, % buffs, etc.). That +damage is before stamina on gear to boot.

Without playtesting, I can't really say if it's better or worse than a heavy Reaver build. Not like those extra points are worth more elsewhere though. More CON is not needed as you can survive assassin backstabs by then, and boss fights are primarily movement based dodging. More STR isn't needed as gains to hit% goes to the pits after a certain bit (1.25STR/level from most finds). I personally chose CUN more for roleplaying than true needs myself. Though seeing Meredith whiff a few attacks was great all in itself =P.

*shrug* If it's fun, right?

[Ace Attorney]

Well my Mage file got the Isabela Speed bug. So I am giving this a go again. 
Changed OP a bit.

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 18 mars 2011 - 01:38 .

[Ace Attorney]

Based on reading AreleX's Berseker Vanguard topic, I'm beginning to think Two Handers have another advantage over One Handers, the slower speed means less losses of Stamina per swing from Berserk. Anyone else still think an One Hander DPS Tank Berserker is still viable?

[Cactot]

It would also mean less single target dps while stamina lasted. For an extreme example (not numbers from the real game):

2h Weapon: 100 damage, swings 1 time per second = 100dps
1h weapon: 50 damage, swings 2x per second = 100dps

Beserk adds a flat 15% of stamina (fully upgraded), if you had 200 stamina this would net you:
2h weapon: 130 damage, 1 time per second = 130dps
1h weapon: 80 damage, 2x per second= 160dps

If the speed differential were really this large, (which it isn't) the 1h weapon would do as much single target damage with half stamina as the 2h does with full stamina, but drain stamina twice as quickly.

[soldierofhate]

Zhel_Ryn wrote...

Reaver is a keeper if just for Blood Frenzy. Templar though, unless you're going to use the talents you need to get Annulment, is not needed. 50% Magic Resistance is definitely nice, but I've only had two, maybe three fights that I felt it was a well spent talent. Rest of the times, there's only ever been one, maybe two magic users per fight that were actual threats (blood mage, saarebas, arcane horror, desire demon). And of those, the desire demons were the only ones that could survive focus fire long enough that stun locking would help.

Templar tree is actually very underated.  Sure the +50% magic resistance is beast, but the skills spent to achieve that are hardly wasted.  Silence can prevent other classes abilites, including Stealth for Rouges.  If they cloak before you get a chance?  No problem there either, just knock them out of it with Smite's Aoe.  (other AOE's might work for this too).   Those have played nightmare should appreciate the ability to stop Rouge's fatal backstab.

Follow this link for more information on this topic and other strategy found in my 2H Warrior Tank n' Spank Guide:
 http://social.biowar...5/index/6507097
Currently wrapping up a Nightmare Sword n' Board playthrough and I'll be making a guide for that soon

Modifié par soldierofhate, 22 mars 2011 - 05:10 .

[soldierofhate]

T3hAnubis wrote...

Based on reading AreleX's Berseker Vanguard topic, I'm beginning to think Two Handers have another advantage over One Handers, the slower speed means less losses of Stamina per swing from Berserk. Anyone else still think an One Hander DPS Tank Berserker is still viable?

I think you have the right idea here, this is kind of similar to how I set up my Sword & Board in DA:O and my 2nd playthrough on Nightmare in DA2.  Another person mentioned investing a couple points into Scatter and Assault.  These are both pretty awesome abilites and Scatter sends enemies flying like they just got punched by an ogre.  Pretty fun with Berzerker as you start to use your shield bashing disrupts in conjunction with your fast attacks to smack them around the battlefield.  I for one still support originality and trying new builds.  If it works for your playstyle then go for it.  I personaly think you have a good thing going here even If I did find 2H warrior alot of fun my first playthrough.

[WJC3688]

Based on reading AreleX's Berseker Vanguard topic,
I'm beginning to think Two Handers have another advantage over One
Handers, the slower speed means less losses of Stamina per swing from
Berserk. Anyone else still think an One Hander DPS Tank Berserker is
still viable?

Seems very viable to me, what with the same talent trees that make offensive 2H a beast (Vanguard, Berserker, Reaver) also being available to SnS, and the SnS-specific abilities apparently pulling damage numbers in the thousands when set up properly.  Sure, 2H has its advantages, but it's not like SnS is without advantages of its own--attacking faster means more Berserk damage, having a shield means more durability, etc.  One advantage of having a smaller attack arc might be that you could actually use a melee companion and not have to worry as much about accidentally pwning them.

It might seem like SnS isn't as good just because it's not getting as much love.  The 2H guides are actual guides, with lists of weapons/gear, preferred party members, tactics setups, etc.  I don't know if anyone can/would be willing to make videos for SnS berserkers (personally I can't, don't have recording equipment), but we could definitely get together the rest of that stuff and make a proper guide for it.  I might pick up this build for that specific purpose on my next run.

Modifié par WJC3688, 22 mars 2011 - 09:07 .

[Zhel_Ryn]

@T3hAnubis: Pretty much what Cactot stated. Since it's a flat +damage amount being added to each attack, faster attack speed gets the larger dps boost. As for stamina usage, as previously said, there's a lot of ways to alleviate this issue in Deathblow, Bolster, Second Wind, Stamina potions, etc.

@soldierofhate: I never said (or meant anyway) that Templar was a bad choice, but if the 50% magic resistance is the only reason you're taking it, then you should look at other options as it's not that big of a gain. There's just not that many events in the 14+ content that taking half damage is a better option than just focus firing the few sources of magic damage.

As for breaking enemy stealth, I'm under the impression it's the knockback/down states that does this, not the damage. Tremor works just as well at this task.

That said, my 2h tank was a Reaver/Templar, and I enjoyed using all of the abilities I took.

[Adhin]

From my experience, knockback/down and stun knock out of stealth. Damage and paralyze don't for some reason I can't quite figure out, maybe as intended but then the loadscreen tip is horribly wrong.

As for SnB vs 2H I don't think its going to matter much. I mean you attack faster so your DPS is 'better' for a short time yeah, but it also dips down faster and you run out of stamina that much faster. Second Wind/Bolster is your only real options to keep it going in any kind of fight where that would matter. Group fighting, for instance, since your killing a lot is less of an issue as each kills going to top you out.

Guess in that it depends how fast you run out of stamina in relation to how often you can use Cleave + Second Wind. Cleave's basically 20 stamina every 20 seconds. Which is the highest stamina to DPS ability for a warrior of any build hands down. It's stupid not to use that every second its available.

Don't really wanna look up the exact numbers but I think (even a 2h is faster then 1 hit a second) but it was something like 5 hits every 3 seconds? Something around there. That's shy 35 hits in that 20 second time frame, could lower that to 30-ish maybe a tad more accurate. Actually thats 30 'swings', any one of them could hit 2 targets with the SnB.... kinda lost track where I was going with that. Though the point im failing at making is it just wont matter one way or the other so just go with what style you like. And the Armor from the Shield is only like 2% Armor increase late game unless your using super old **** armor. Almost pointless.

[Leo Church 13]

On nightmare survivability should be given it's due. You can't do damage if you're dead. I and my party live much longer with sword and board. It also kills assassins faster than my similar 2h build and is more likely to survive the encounter (knockback / crit /flanking immune). I posted my build in a separate thread specifically regarding nightmare assassins. I think I referred to them as rogues in the title.

[dfscott]

I'm on my second playthrough now (played 2H Vanguard Hawke the first time) and wanted to try this. However, I'm a rogue, so I'm wondering if it would be viable to build Aveline this way and have her tank with it (would require some console magic to give the specializations, of course)?

If so, would it be worth taking any talents from her personal tree (Indomitable looks pretty nice).

[Trapslick]

beserker isn't really worth it imo, the counter attacks from a shield + cleave + reaver can do serious damage to a large group if exectuded properly... i think assault is a little over rated

[Tj14]

I have S&S damage dealer and it's fun:ph34r:

I max out S&S Tree + some on Warmonger + some on Battlemastertake Reaver (almost max out) and Berserker (only for the bonus +10 mana regen) specialization:whistle: