204 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@Tirigon - I actually play mages pretty exclusively, but if the mages of Thedas can't practice self-control (and clearly they can't) - then they need to seek help from an outside source.

Think of it like being an alcoholic and having a buddy to support you when times are tough and you could just "use a drink."

Of course - my Warden and my Champion are paragons of self-control. I am the thing that demons of the Fade fear most.

[Tirigon]

Anyways, Mages in the Dragon Age universe kinda suck.

Don´t get me wrong, I´m totally pro-mage and mostly play mage because I consider them most fun gameplay-wise.

BUT!

I like the mages more in the way you like animals hunted to near-extinction in spite of being damned cute. They´re not really MAGES, they´re PUS*IES!

A REAL mage wouldn´t be stopped by templars, he would rule them. And if they try to do something, well, one can always use a few thousand corpses to be ressurrected as zombie guards or to be used in insane experiments.

Mages are supposed to be special people with near-godlike powers, not archers who shoot lightning instead of real arrows. And get eaten by demons.
But that´s what they are in Dragon Age.






Edit: At Medhia Nox:
Outside help is fine. but not if the "help" is tranquillising or killing you for just leaving the Circle to meet your family.
To stay with your analogy: If you´re an alcoholic you sure can use a friend keeping you from drinking, but you don´t want that friend to cut your hand off if you reach for a beer.

Modifié par Tirigon, 16 mars 2011 - 02:55 .

[White_Buffalo94]

I support mages to an extent and believe Templars are only somewhat necessary and that they can be replaced with something more efficient. Mages are dangerous, but because they have the ability to cause destruction with magic, they are persecuted and I defend them due to the vast majority being good people that only seek freedom. A crazy mage is just as common as a crazy normal person.

Modifié par White_Buffalo94, 16 mars 2011 - 02:53 .

[MrWakka]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Tirigon - I actually play mages pretty exclusively, but if the mages of Thedas can't practice self-control (and clearly they can't) - then they need to seek help from an outside source.

Think of it like being an alcoholic and having a buddy to support you when times are tough and you could just "use a drink."

Of course - my Warden and my Champion are paragons of self-control. I am the thing that demons of the Fade fear most.

Hi, I am MrWakka, and i've been a mage for 17 years now.

*Group* Hi Wakka!

[Cody211282]

Tirigon wrote...

Anyways, Mages in the Dragon Age universe kinda suck.

Don´t get me wrong, I´m totally pro-mage and mostly play mage because I consider them most fun gameplay-wise.

BUT!

I like the mages more in the way you like animals hunted to near-extinction in spite of being damned cute. They´re not really MAGES, they´re PUS*IES!

A REAL mage wouldn´t be stopped by templars, he would rule them. And if they try to do something, well, one can always use a few thousand corpses to be ressurrected as zombie guards or to be used in insane experiments.

Mages are supposed to be special people with near-godlike powers, not archers who shoot lightning instead of real arrows. And get eaten by demons.
But that´s what they are in Dragon Age.






Edit: At Medhia Nox:
Outside help is fine. but not if the "help" is tranquillising or killing you for just leaving the Circle to meet your family.
To stay with your analogy: If you´re an alcoholic you sure can use a friend keeping you from drinking, but you don´t want that friend to cut your hand off if you reach for a beer.

And this is why I like the templars more

[LegendaryBlade]

Tirigon wrote...

Anyways, Mages in the Dragon Age universe kinda suck.

Don´t get me wrong, I´m totally pro-mage and mostly play mage because I consider them most fun gameplay-wise.

BUT!

I like the mages more in the way you like animals hunted to near-extinction in spite of being damned cute. They´re not really MAGES, they´re PUS*IES!

A REAL mage wouldn´t be stopped by templars, he would rule them. And if they try to do something, well, one can always use a few thousand corpses to be ressurrected as zombie guards or to be used in insane experiments.

Mages are supposed to be special people with near-godlike powers, not archers who shoot lightning instead of real arrows. And get eaten by demons.
But that´s what they are in Dragon Age.






Edit: At Medhia Nox:
Outside help is fine. but not if the "help" is tranquillising or killing you for just leaving the Circle to meet your family.
To stay with your analogy: If you´re an alcoholic you sure can use a friend keeping you from drinking, but you don´t want that friend to cut your hand off if you reach for a beer.

Except, compared to the average Ferelden person, mages are pretty much godlike. They can literally summon up blizzards and fields of lightning like nothing, this is before even level ten or eleven in DA: O. Mages are trampled on not because they're weak, but because Templars found a way to stop them. Many of their moves are anti magic, spells like cleanse and what not make a mages godlike power null and void. A large enough group of templars could keep the most powerful mage in existence under a constant dispell treatment if they did it right. 

That's not even mentioning the amount of mages who take anti mage powers and side with the templars.

Your entire post is absurd.

Modifié par LegendaryBlade, 16 mars 2011 - 03:00 .

[Arawn-Loki]

The problem with institutions like the Templars is that they destroy the value of their purpose. If people need to resort to such repressive measures in order to keep their peace, then their peace isn't worth protecting, particularly not to the repressed. 

[Vette-LPC]

They did a great job giving each side their own evils, makes picking teams that much harder. Since my character is an apostate my side is somewhat obvious, not to mention how crazy templars have gotten in kirkwall.

[dragonmack]

Actually if you look at the start of the game , it is intentionally trying to bias you towards the mages side. You either start out as an apostate mage, or your sister is an apostate mage, and your dad was an apostate mage. You spent your entire life up to that point trying to hide from the Templars. Even most of the quests involving choices show templars oppressing the mages and that being the justification for the mages rebelling by using blood magic. There are only a few sympathetic templar figures, and the most sympathetic one actually supports the mages.

[Apechild]

Tirigon wrote...

Anyways, Mages in the Dragon Age universe kinda suck.

Don´t get me wrong, I´m totally pro-mage and mostly play mage because I consider them most fun gameplay-wise.

BUT!

I like the mages more in the way you like animals hunted to near-extinction in spite of being damned cute. They´re not really MAGES, they´re PUS*IES!

A REAL mage wouldn´t be stopped by templars, he would rule them. And if they try to do something, well, one can always use a few thousand corpses to be ressurrected as zombie guards or to be used in insane experiments.

Mages are supposed to be special people with near-godlike powers, not archers who shoot lightning instead of real arrows. And get eaten by demons.
But that´s what they are in Dragon Age.

I think the reason the mages are so tame is that they have the perspective that they can be a huge danger to people - they're told that constantly by their Circle & the Chantry, repeatedly reminded that "Magic must not rule man" so it's no wonder they're so passive, especially if they're convinced that use of magic will lead to transformation into an abomination. They didn't ask for their power, perhaps they don't even want it. As far as they know they're a liability and a danger to everyone, so best to just keep out of the way?

It's how the person handles the power that matters. You can have powerful characters like a Mage Hawke, who at the end is bristling with power (well mine was) but even then I was of the line that the Chantry, Templars & Mages should work together, not that one should rule over the other. With Mages in danger of possession by demons they need someone to watch over them, but in turn the Templars need someone to watch over them in case they become prison warders rather than watchers.

It's all in the perspective. Just because you might use magical power to dominate others doesn't mean every other mage would use their power in such a manner. Power corrupts & absolute power corrupts absolutely. Where would you stop with your power? Would you replace the tyranny of the Chantry/Templars with your own?

[Tirigon]

LegendaryBlade wrote...

Except, compared to the average Ferelden person, mages are pretty much godlike. They can literally summon up blizzards and fields of lightning like nothing, this is before even level ten or eleven in DA: O. Mages are trampled on not because they're weak, but because Templars found a way to stop them. Many of their moves are anti magic, spells like cleanse and what not make a mages godlike power null and void. A large enough group of templars could keep the most powerful mage in existence under a constant dispell treatment if they did it right. 

That's not even mentioning the amount of mages who take anti mage powers and side with the templars.

Your entire post is absurd.

No yours is.

Have you actually played as mage and then, say, rogue in DAO? Mage was - for me - much more fun thanks to all the AoE stuff, but my rogue was like a hundred times stronger, and so was my warrior.

My mage had to bother with actually use the terrain to her advantage, needed a group to protect her etc....

My warrior would charge in and kill everyone, barely taking a scratch (and if they´re really strong he´d have a healing drink or two and that´s it).

My rogue was so strong, when backstabbing I could do more damage than my mage would do with an entire combination of AoE-debuff, fireball, firestorm, freezing etc... - within seconds.

Enemy mages were only a problem for my own mage, too. My rogue would sneak up on them, stealth-attack -> stun -> autobackstab and they´re dead before even doing anything.

Playing mage was by far the hardest playthrough.


I haven´t played DA2 as warrior yet but I read that it is even more so than in DAO.


Mages as enemies are weak too. In DAO they were hard if they put crushing prison on your weaker party members as it would instakill on nightmare, and with fireball.

In DA2 they are a f*cking joke, however.



Mages might be supposed to be strong lore-wise, but in gameplay that sadly doesn´t show.

[Cody211282]

dragonmack wrote...

Actually if you look at the start of the game , it is intentionally trying to bias you towards the mages side. You either start out as an apostate mage, or your sister is an apostate mage, and your dad was an apostate mage. You spent your entire life up to that point trying to hide from the Templars. Even most of the quests involving choices show templars oppressing the mages and that being the justification for the mages rebelling by using blood magic. There are only a few sympathetic templar figures, and the most sympathetic one actually supports the mages.

That and the Seeker keeps saying you want to destry the chantry, I'm guessing the default choises are all going to be pro mage.

[InHarmsWay]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
I've gotta disagree. As Sebastian tells Anders is one of their conversations, no one is truly free. Hawke was forced to go to Kirkwall. Sebastian was forced to become a member of the Chantry. We're a slave to circumstances. On ther other hand, it's known fact that demons prey on mages and will always do so. It's also a known fact that i was because of Mage workings that the Archdemons even came into existence. I'm not saying Mages should be brutalized and kept locked up, but there certainly exist the need for security. If it were up to me, I'd have everyone simply register whether they are a mage and keep Templars on standby throughout cities, simply being prepared to counter evil mage activity, should it come about, rather than actively hunting down mages who are minding their business.

I completely agree with this idea. It's the perfect middle ground between mage oppression and complete mage freedom.

Also about the mages creating the darkspawn. That is all according to the Chantry. If you mention this to Avenus in Origins, he'll scoff at this saying it is Chantry propaganda. And quite frankly, it might be. I'm not likely to take the word of a religion that enslaves and oppresses mages, that mages are responsible for closing down heaven.

Modifié par InHarmsWay, 16 mars 2011 - 03:18 .

[Apechild]

<cough> Wrong forum for spoilers.

[Tirigon]

Apechild wrote...

I think the reason the mages are so tame is that they have the perspective that they can be a huge danger to people - they're told that constantly by their Circle & the Chantry, repeatedly reminded that "Magic must not rule man" so it's no wonder they're so passive, especially if they're convinced that use of magic will lead to transformation into an abomination. They didn't ask for their power, perhaps they don't even want it. As far as they know they're a liability and a danger to everyone, so best to just keep out of the way?

It's how the person handles the power that matters. You can have powerful characters like a Mage Hawke, who at the end is bristling with power (well mine was) but even then I was of the line that the Chantry, Templars & Mages should work together, not that one should rule over the other. With Mages in danger of possession by demons they need someone to watch over them, but in turn the Templars need someone to watch over them in case they become prison warders rather than watchers.

It's all in the perspective. Just because you might use magical power to dominate others doesn't mean every other mage would use their power in such a manner. Power corrupts & absolute power corrupts absolutely. Where would you stop with your power? Would you replace the tyranny of the Chantry/Templars with your own?

Yea sure. My point was something else though.

What Iwas saying is that mages in Dragon Age are not what I consider to be a mage.
For me, a mage is that guy controlling everything by his will.

Good example would be Malacay in Spellforce, who was so powerful it eventually took the gods themselves to stop him from destroying the world, or the mages in the "Wheel of Time"-series, who control such insane power the only army using them in fights is pretty much unstoppable and conquers half the world within a few days.

Or, alternatively, the way magic works in Tolkien´s universe where you can´t simply smash the baddies with lightning from your magic wand but magic is something actually special and incomprehensible, like the veil around one elven wood that simply couldn´t be passed by anyone who wasnt allowed in, without them actually noticing any magic but somehow, never arriving where they want.

Most definitely NOT, however, these "throw a 50 damage fireball" guys in DA......

It is similar with elves. I like the DA-elves, but they´re not "real" elves for me. The only real elves are those from LotR.

[Cody211282]

Tirigon wrote...

Apechild wrote...

I think the reason the mages are so tame is that they have the perspective that they can be a huge danger to people - they're told that constantly by their Circle & the Chantry, repeatedly reminded that "Magic must not rule man" so it's no wonder they're so passive, especially if they're convinced that use of magic will lead to transformation into an abomination. They didn't ask for their power, perhaps they don't even want it. As far as they know they're a liability and a danger to everyone, so best to just keep out of the way?

It's how the person handles the power that matters. You can have powerful characters like a Mage Hawke, who at the end is bristling with power (well mine was) but even then I was of the line that the Chantry, Templars & Mages should work together, not that one should rule over the other. With Mages in danger of possession by demons they need someone to watch over them, but in turn the Templars need someone to watch over them in case they become prison warders rather than watchers.

It's all in the perspective. Just because you might use magical power to dominate others doesn't mean every other mage would use their power in such a manner. Power corrupts & absolute power corrupts absolutely. Where would you stop with your power? Would you replace the tyranny of the Chantry/Templars with your own?

Yea sure. My point was something else though.

What Iwas saying is that mages in Dragon Age are not what I consider to be a mage.
For me, a mage is that guy controlling everything by his will.

Good example would be Malacay in Spellforce, who was so powerful it eventually took the gods themselves to stop him from destroying the world, or the mages in the "Wheel of Time"-series, who control such insane power the only army using them in fights is pretty much unstoppable and conquers half the world within a few days.

Or, alternatively, the way magic works in Tolkien´s universe where you can´t simply smash the baddies with lightning from your magic wand but magic is something actually special and incomprehensible, like the veil around one elven wood that simply couldn´t be passed by anyone who wasnt allowed in, without them actually noticing any magic but somehow, never arriving where they want.

Most definitely NOT, however, these "throw a 50 damage fireball" guys in DA......

It is similar with elves. I like the DA-elves, but they´re not "real" elves for me. The only real elves are those from LotR.

So basicly your saying that you want to argue points in the game without using what the games setting is..........right that makes scense.

[Tirigon]

Cody211282 wrote...


So basicly your saying that you want to argue points in the game without using what the games setting is..........right that makes scense.

Naa basicly I was just derailing the thread cos I felt the need to rant about how Dragon Age is trying to destroy my image of elves and mages, and failed to do so.
Well at least the dwarves stick quite close to actual dwarves. I only miss the beards on women.

All I had to say about the topic I have said before.

[Apechild]

I hate Elves...they just annoy me in every system except for Warhammer Fantasy, but thats because Wood Elves there are savage buggers who are awesome. And have wardancers. They rock.

Best form of magic I ever came across was Steven Erikson's from his Malazan Book of the Fallen series. It's handled there superbly. Especially the character Quick Ben who pits his incredible intellect & magical skills against Gods and gets away with it time and again....especially when you have an understanding of his backstory and exactly what he is capable of.

As for the DA mages? During the cutscenes there are plenty of 1-hit kill uses of magic by the mages, but the '50 points' thing is a game mechanic, otherwise mage characters would cut down everything instantly - where's the challenge then? Admittedly it was quite easy as a mage, just using force magic to gather enemies up before AoEing them to death in the most wonderfully horrendous ways.

Perhaps there were mages in the DA universe who were insanely powerful, but the Chantry does it's best to prevent that occuring again, if it did happen, by keeping the mages in line. I like that, provides conflict & tension. I do like that they are feared and kept penned in inside towers/Circles and that they can be tracked through their phylactery and any troublesome ones are made tranquil. Felt there was too much stuff about blood magic in DA2...seemed all the mages wanted to give it a go.

But then we all have different preferences.

[Cody211282]

Tirigon wrote...

Cody211282 wrote...


So basicly your saying that you want to argue points in the game without using what the games setting is..........right that makes scense.

Naa basicly I was just derailing the thread cos I felt the need to rant about how Dragon Age is trying to destroy my image of elves and mages, and failed to do so.
Well at least the dwarves stick quite close to actual dwarves. I only miss the beards on women.

All I had to say about the topic I have said before.

I thought the dwarves in this are rather awesome, what would be more awesome is mage qwarf(I know they can't happen) or Templar Dwarf.

[Tirigon]

@ Apechild: What annoyed the hell out of me is how lore and gameplay differ.

See, I remember in the mage origin Duncan told he saw a bloodmage wipe out an entire group of well-prepared templars. He died, but only cos he got sloppy and didn´t noticed one of the corpses was actually still alive and cut his head off.
And that´s against a party specifically out to hunt this bloodmage!!! And he was definitely not an exceptionally powerful one!!!

So, when you are to fight them, I was kinda scared because I thought it would be hard. But the truth was.... those bloodmages where freaking jokes. Seriously, every group of mabari or wolves were much, much more challenging, and I wasn´t even a templar character in the party.

I understand that you can´t make every single mage into an unstoppable powerhouse because that would make the game unplayable for everyone but a bloodmage mainchar. But instead of making them sissies they should be reserved for boss fights imo and not come for free with every pack of slavers....

[Tirigon]

Cody211282 wrote...

I thought the dwarves in this are rather awesome, what would be more awesome is mage qwarf(I know they can't happen) or Templar Dwarf.

Yea they are, but still. Would love beards on the women. It´s so much more dwarfy:)


All thumbs up for beardy mage dwarf chick!!!!!

[Dean_the_Young]

A mix of 'the player is awesome' and number inflation.

In the context of DA2, at least, we can thank Varric for exagerations.

[Palathas]

I really don't support either one because they both need a good "slap upside of the head". I just happened to support mages the first play-through because I supported them from the start. I'm currently on a sencond play-through as a mage and will be supporting the Templars because I want to see if anyone gasps and yells at me for betraying my own kind.