204 réponses à ce sujet

[Cody211282]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A mix of 'the player is awesome' and number inflation.

In the context of DA2, at least, we can thank Varric for exagerations.

You know that could explain the whole wave after wave thing.

[LegendaryBlade]

I can't agree at all, my mage playthru was by far my easiest. Playing a buff/healing build I basically walked through the game, and the proving was essentially over the moment I got the right order of spells out. Not to mention that Arcane Warrior's, if done right, are actually better tanks than normal warrior's half the time, and if you can manage your mana you stillg et the bonus of unleashing buffs or even AoE spells, just need to go through Lyrium pots.

To be fair though, my rogue playthru was also pretty easy, and making Leliana or The Warden a ranger is just overpowered. You get to keep your rogue a backline fighter and get an extra free front liner.

The idea of mages that your proposing, with god and super hero complexs, are absolutely non-practical in the Dragonage lore, if we start giving them DBZ syndrome than the entire game will just feel lopsided and broken. Even in earlier Bioware titles mages were not gods, infact i'd dare say mages are far weaker in BG. After all we felt no need to lock most of them in a tower.

In DA2, well...I can see where you'd have a problem there.

EDIT: Quoted the wrong post, oops.

Modifié par LegendaryBlade, 16 mars 2011 - 03:50 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Tirigon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If you fail to prevent something bad but preventable from happening, you've indirectly infringed the rights of the person it happened to. People have a right to security from others as much as any, and more than other, rights. A government which neglects the security of its people from others has no legitimacy: in this case, the mages from the people who would gladly kill them out of fear, and the people from the mages who can at any point gain great, destructive, sociopathic powers.

Freedom >>>> security.

An ideology that can exist in large part because of cynical dealings and arrangements that provide it the environment of security to exercise and maintain such freedoms.

Ironic, I know.

I'd put life over freedom, though, since it's kind of hard to have freedom without being alive, whereas if you're alive you can always work to regain your freedom.


So Life >>> Freedom >>> Security.

Like? No. I also don't like paying taxes, obeying traffic laws, and having to submit to passenger screening at the airport. I do see the benefit and reason of all three, however.

I don´t, and at least when it comes to traffic laws I tend to ignore some of them (speed limits, red lights when I´m on foot, pretty much everything when I´m bicycling.....)

Congratulations to you, then. Certainly something to be said about victimless laws, but then a number of rules are made to keep victims from being made: the more they are followed overall, the less risky they are when ignored by small numbers.

Mind you, supporting and defending those rights and privilages you do enjoy is rather expensive in many respects. So if you don't see the point of even taxes that pay for it and other government services, I can't really help you with that. Similarly with passenger screening: it's not just governments, but airlines that have to continue having customer acceptance and trust to keep functioning, or else they wouldn't sustain themselves at all. Part of that trust is public confidence in the safety of air travel.

You and I already live in surveilance states, and we already live in societies where we can be locked away for even victimless crimes. While the Circle system certainly stands to be improved, it is not a horrific hell on Earth.

Surely living in a sh!tty system doesn´t mean I must like it, even less support it in a fantasy game, right?
That being said, you CAN´T being locked away for being born with a special talent. (not yet anyways:unsure:)

Sure you can, depending on how exceptional it is. Just look at Bubble Boy.

But it really isn't about being born with it, but rather having an aspect at any point. A baby with the plague would be quarantined just as surely as an adult.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 mars 2011 - 03:53 .

[wikkedjoker]

There is really no right side to this.

However I can honestly say that Meredith was being controlled. And the Templar's under her command just obeyed orders (even than some rebelled).

There was A LOT of demons and Blood Magic, in Kirkwall. Nothing is forcing the mages to do that. They are making a choice.

Is it right to keep the Mage's away from normal people. Well yeah, I don't agree with the methods but, you have people that can destroy city's and summon demons with a stray thought. And like Wynne said in DA:O the circle isn't just to protect people from Mage's its to protect Mage's from people. A crop goes bad, a child is born stillborn who will they blame? The fact **** happens or the Mage?

Now I don't agree with how the Mage's are treated, but I do believe the Circle is necessary.

Mage's in the end make the choice to abuse there power. Templar's are just following orders.

Like I said I think the mage's need to be treated better, but I do think the circle is necessary. And when you look at ALL of the things that happen to Hawk because of magic. its hard to say that magic doesn't corrupt.

[TheDarkBrotherhood]

People keep saying that just because they're dangerous it's an excuse to do that to them, and that's a weak excuse, being a Mage is not like holding a gun, because Mages are born that way, but holding a gun is your choice, if you were a Mage, and you were weak that you can't complete the harrowing, is it fair that they kill you or make you tranquil just because you failed, not everyone is strong, some people just want a simple life where they won't be judged, you say that every mage will turn to blood magic because they're simply Mages, but that is not a fact, that's what you simply believe, keep in mind that almost every Mage we saw fought us at some point so there are definitely Mages that are peaceful and simply want to be free and live a happy life, why would someone like that even try to fight you? Mages can heal people, is healing people wrong/dangerous?

People don't seem to understand that magic is not the problem, the problem is the way the Mage chooses to use it, unless a Mage went insane and tried killing people, it's not fair to kill them, enslave them, or make them tranquil, after all, anyone can go around killing people, it's not like killing is a thing that only Mages can do, it's not like the word "dangerous" was made to only describe Mages, it's not like demons can't posses Non-Mages, you may claim that it's not wrong to do what they do to the Mages, but if this was all real and you were a Mage, you would've wanted freedom, don't judge the book by its cover, the cover is magic, and the book is the Mage.

[wikkedjoker]

Tirigon wrote...

Anyways, Mages in the Dragon Age universe kinda suck.

Don´t get me wrong, I´m totally pro-mage and mostly play mage because I consider them most fun gameplay-wise.

BUT!

I like the mages more in the way you like animals hunted to near-extinction in spite of being damned cute. They´re not really MAGES, they´re PUS*IES!

A REAL mage wouldn´t be stopped by templars, he would rule them. And if they try to do something, well, one can always use a few thousand corpses to be ressurrected as zombie guards or to be used in insane experiments.

Mages are supposed to be special people with near-godlike powers, not archers who shoot lightning instead of real arrows. And get eaten by demons.
But that´s what they are in Dragon Age.






Edit: At Medhia Nox:
Outside help is fine. but not if the "help" is tranquillising or killing you for just leaving the Circle to meet your family.
To stay with your analogy: If you´re an alcoholic you sure can use a friend keeping you from drinking, but you don´t want that friend to cut your hand off if you reach for a beer.

The Tevinter Imperium thought that way to, and look how that ended. . . Darkspawn. . .Blight.

[InHarmsWay]

TheDarkBrotherhood wrote...

People keep saying that just because they're dangerous it's an excuse to do that to them, and that's a weak excuse, being a Mage is not like holding a gun, because Mages are born that way, but holding a gun is your choice, if you were a Mage, and you were weak that you can't complete the harrowing, is it fair that they kill you or make you tranquil just because you failed, not everyone is strong, some people just want a simple life where they won't be judged, you say that every mage will turn to blood magic because they're simply Mages, but that is not a fact, that's what you simply believe, keep in mind that almost every Mage we saw fought us at some point so there are definitely Mages that are peaceful and simply want to be free and live a happy life, why would someone like that even try to fight you? Mages can heal people, is healing people wrong/dangerous?

People don't seem to understand that magic is not the problem, the problem is the way the Mage chooses to use it, unless a Mage went insane and tried killing people, it's not fair to kill them, enslave them, or make them tranquil, after all, anyone can go around killing people, it's not like killing is a thing that only Mages can do, it's not like the word "dangerous" was made to only describe Mages, it's not like demons can't posses Non-Mages, you may claim that it's not wrong to do what they do to the Mages, but if this was all real and you were a Mage, you would've wanted freedom, don't judge the book by its cover, the cover is magic, and the book is the Mage.

This is inddeed correct. Demons can basically possess anything. Corpses (where we get those zombies and Revenants), regular people, and animals (kitty).

[InHarmsWay]

wikkedjoker wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Anyways, Mages in the Dragon Age universe kinda suck.

Don´t get me wrong, I´m totally pro-mage and mostly play mage because I consider them most fun gameplay-wise.

BUT!

I like the mages more in the way you like animals hunted to near-extinction in spite of being damned cute. They´re not really MAGES, they´re PUS*IES!

A REAL mage wouldn´t be stopped by templars, he would rule them. And if they try to do something, well, one can always use a few thousand corpses to be ressurrected as zombie guards or to be used in insane experiments.

Mages are supposed to be special people with near-godlike powers, not archers who shoot lightning instead of real arrows. And get eaten by demons.
But that´s what they are in Dragon Age.






Edit: At Medhia Nox:
Outside help is fine. but not if the "help" is tranquillising or killing you for just leaving the Circle to meet your family.
To stay with your analogy: If you´re an alcoholic you sure can use a friend keeping you from drinking, but you don´t want that friend to cut your hand off if you reach for a beer.

The Tevinter Imperium thought that way to, and look how that ended. . . Darkspawn. . .Blight.

Okay, like I mentioned in a previous post. That is according to the Chantry. There are plenty of people who claim otherwise. Anyways, I'm not likely to take the word of an organization that enslaves and oppresses mages, that mages are responsible for closing heaven.

[wikkedjoker]

TheDarkBrotherhood wrote...

People keep saying that just because they're dangerous it's an excuse to do that to them, and that's a weak excuse, being a Mage is not like holding a gun, because Mages are born that way, but holding a gun is your choice, if you were a Mage, and you were weak that you can't complete the harrowing, is it fair that they kill you or make you tranquil just because you failed, not everyone is strong, some people just want a simple life where they won't be judged, you say that every mage will turn to blood magic because they're simply Mages, but that is not a fact, that's what you simply believe, keep in mind that almost every Mage we saw fought us at some point so there are definitely Mages that are peaceful and simply want to be free and live a happy life, why would someone like that even try to fight you? Mages can heal people, is healing people wrong/dangerous?

People don't seem to understand that magic is not the problem, the problem is the way the Mage chooses to use it, unless a Mage went insane and tried killing people, it's not fair to kill them, enslave them, or make them tranquil, after all, anyone can go around killing people, it's not like killing is a thing that only Mages can do, it's not like the word "dangerous" was made to only describe Mages, it's not like demons can't posses Non-Mages, you may claim that it's not wrong to do what they do to the Mages, but if this was all real and you were a Mage, you would've wanted freedom, don't judge the book by its cover, the cover is magic, and the book is the Mage.

Holding a gun can only kill a dozen people, maybe. A stray thought from a Mage can level a city.

In fact your right, someone makes a choice to hold a gun. A Mage can kill 100's just by absently thinking  it.

The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few, or the one. 

Now I don't like the way Mages are treated, Raped,  butchered, abused, treated like criminals, because of what they are. However Mages should be set away from everyone else in things like the circle. 

[wikkedjoker]

InHarmsWay wrote...

wikkedjoker wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Anyways, Mages in the Dragon Age universe kinda suck.

Don´t get me wrong, I´m totally pro-mage and mostly play mage because I consider them most fun gameplay-wise.

BUT!

I like the mages more in the way you like animals hunted to near-extinction in spite of being damned cute. They´re not really MAGES, they´re PUS*IES!

A REAL mage wouldn´t be stopped by templars, he would rule them. And if they try to do something, well, one can always use a few thousand corpses to be ressurrected as zombie guards or to be used in insane experiments.

Mages are supposed to be special people with near-godlike powers, not archers who shoot lightning instead of real arrows. And get eaten by demons.
But that´s what they are in Dragon Age.






Edit: At Medhia Nox:
Outside help is fine. but not if the "help" is tranquillising or killing you for just leaving the Circle to meet your family.
To stay with your analogy: If you´re an alcoholic you sure can use a friend keeping you from drinking, but you don´t want that friend to cut your hand off if you reach for a beer.

The Tevinter Imperium thought that way to, and look how that ended. . . Darkspawn. . .Blight.

Okay, like I mentioned in a previous post. That is according to the Chantry. There are plenty of people who claim otherwise. Anyways, I'm not likely to take the word of an organization that enslaves and oppresses mages, that mages are responsible for closing heaven.

Your right the Imperium just endlaves and oppresses everything else. How do they do that again?

Modifié par wikkedjoker, 16 mars 2011 - 04:29 .

[InHarmsWay]

wikkedjoker wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

wikkedjoker wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Anyways, Mages in the Dragon Age universe kinda suck.

Don´t get me wrong, I´m totally pro-mage and mostly play mage because I consider them most fun gameplay-wise.

BUT!

I like the mages more in the way you like animals hunted to near-extinction in spite of being damned cute. They´re not really MAGES, they´re PUS*IES!

A REAL mage wouldn´t be stopped by templars, he would rule them. And if they try to do something, well, one can always use a few thousand corpses to be ressurrected as zombie guards or to be used in insane experiments.

Mages are supposed to be special people with near-godlike powers, not archers who shoot lightning instead of real arrows. And get eaten by demons.
But that´s what they are in Dragon Age.






Edit: At Medhia Nox:
Outside help is fine. but not if the "help" is tranquillising or killing you for just leaving the Circle to meet your family.
To stay with your analogy: If you´re an alcoholic you sure can use a friend keeping you from drinking, but you don´t want that friend to cut your hand off if you reach for a beer.

The Tevinter Imperium thought that way to, and look how that ended. . . Darkspawn. . .Blight.

Okay, like I mentioned in a previous post. That is according to the Chantry. There are plenty of people who claim otherwise. Anyways, I'm not likely to take the word of an organization that enslaves and oppresses mages, that mages are responsible for closing heaven.

Your right the Imperium just endlaves and oppresses everything else.

Which surprisingly can be done without magic.

[Jman5]

After the disaster of my first play through trying to be mister nice guy pro-mage, I decided to just go 100% pro templar badguy.

Turns out, that despite my best efforts, I feel like I'm more of a good guy than before. None of my decisions are coming back to haunt me either. It seems like playing the anti-hero is actually the better choice in DA2 from the moral standpoint.

[TheDarkBrotherhood]

wikkedjoker wrote...
A Mage can kill 100's just by absently thinking  it.

Now we shouldn't overreact, shall we? if the Mages were that powerful, the Templars would've all died, anyone can simply kill and anyone can simply die. I said that they're born Mages it's not their choice, and that's true, however killing someone is a choice, with magic or not, killing is killing.

Now I don't like the way Mages are treated, Raped,  butchered, abused,
treated like criminals, because of what they are. However Mages should
be set away from everyone else in things like the circle.

So basically, you don't want them to be raped, butchered, abused, and treated like criminals because of what they are, but it's okay to not give them freedom, it's okay that they don't know what the world outside the circle is like, it's okay that they can't meet their family simply because of what they are, and make them live in the circle where they don't know Non-mages, except for the Templars ... the people that have anti-magic talents.

Modifié par TheDarkBrotherhood, 16 mars 2011 - 05:36 .

[Kims Sonic Burgers]

I was going to do a Templars on my first round as I played through it, because most of the mages were blood mages, or crazy. Then, when the ending came around, the Templars had to make an over exaggeration of the situation. The game could have ended there BUT NOOOO, Templars had to go bat crazy as well. Then the mages had to make me regret choosing them even more

Ugh. Double-edged sword.

Edit: Was a bit too spoilery.

Modifié par Kims Sonic Burgers, 16 mars 2011 - 05:13 .

[Cody211282]

Kims Sonic Burgers wrote...

I was going to do a Templars on my first round as I played through it, because most of the mages were blood mages, or crazy. Then, when the ending came around, the Templars had to make an over exaggeration of the situation. The game could have ended there BUT NOOOO, Templars had to go bat crazy as well. Then the mages had to make me regret choosing them even more

Ugh. Double-edged sword.

Edit: Was a bit too spoilery.

Basicly picking between the two is is like picking what kneecap to shoot.

[Sabariel]

I support... Varric. He's better than both the mages and the templars.

[Insom]

I am a Templar supporter, but not a Meredith supporter. Templars are generally good guys, most of them in origins were just doing their jobs.

[Hach1]

benreeder2431 wrote...

Everyone I know who plays Dragon Age adore the mages. I have not met one templar supporter other than one attempting to get all the achievements, trophies, etc. I'm curious if you guys are actually out there. Personally, I'm a huge mage supporter. I don't even mind blood magic to a degree.


So, are you a full on mage supporter like me, a mage supporter who still thinks order is needed and blood magic is bad, or a templar supporter?

It's nearly impossible to be a Templar supporter in Dragonage 2. Unless you're specifically selecting those choices just to see the outcome, or get the achievements.

There's a whole host of reasons why it's difficult to support them too.
Firstly, either; you're a mage or your sister is. Which puts you in the mage corner early on, unless you're trying to lower your standing with them. There's also the factor that many of the "templar choices" are considered "agressive", because their positions are so extreme in DA2, when you have three choices "friendly, charming or aggressive." 2/3 are anti-Templar, because their position is often so extreme.

There's also the problem whereby, if/when you support Templars you'll almost always be given another choice later on to counteract that choice and double cross them, or change your stance in a conversation, because the specific templar is about to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" for lack of a better phrase.

One of the other problems here is also that the "Templar supporter" in the Hawke/Players groups isn't really Pro-Templar, they're just very anti-mage.

In DA2 there is nobody trying to reach the middle ground. There's no Alistair on one side, Morrigan on the other with everyone else somewhere in between. The reason this worked so well in DA:O came down to character opinions but also character roles. Alistair wasn't likely to be replaced on your first play through, due to his important class role. You also get to see both the good and the bad of mages, DA:O's mage tower while showing the near worest case scenario, allows wrynn to show you what's possible on the opposite end.

It's also very hard to be pro-middleground in DA2, because you're pushed to one side of the spectrum or the other, You're even rewarded for taking extreme actions on either side at different points. So bleh.

Modifié par Hach1, 16 mars 2011 - 06:01 .

[dtmoss]

There were a few points in the game where I questioned the magic side but overall it eventually became clear the night commander had to be blown to hell.

Modifié par dtmoss, 16 mars 2011 - 06:23 .

[Cody211282]

dtmoss wrote...

There were a few points in the game where I questioned the magic side but overall it eventually became clear the night commander had to be blown to hell.

To me it came down to side with one crazy person, or a few hundred crazy people I had been fighting all game.

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

I keep hoping that there will be some templars that will join our great rebellion and cast down the chantry. after all, surely there must be some templars who would want to be freed from the chantry. Imagine squads of mages and templars on both sides battling it out.
 
DEATH TO THE CHANTRY LOYALIST SCUM !

Modifié par Blood-Lord Thanatos, 16 mars 2011 - 06:55 .

[Biefstukfriet]

I don't want to ****** of mage mage party members... Otherwise I'd have been all over them mages, slapping them in shackles and Tranqueling the **** out of them. They cause nothing but pain and suffering and since gunpowder exists in Thedas, who needs mages?

[chzrm3]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Most templars are actually incredibly selfless, dedicating their live to guard people who can be deadly menace, at the risk of their own existence. A true repressive society would simply kill anyone show any talent for magic. That Thedas' society bother to dedicate so much ressources to keep people in check but alive is already quite an humanistic feat.

To be fair, they do this for mages because having them on their side is too tempting to pass up. Using mages is like using nuclear warfare. They're incredibly powerful, but also incredibly dangerous, and when one side is using them, everyone else needs to use them too or they'll be irrelevant.

If mages were worthless in warfare, but were capable of controlling people's minds and slaughtering innocents en masse, then you can bet the templars would be tasked with rounding them up and systematically killing them. It's only because mages are so darn useful that the templars go through all the trouble of keeping them alive.

That said, I side with the mages every chance I get. The templars just aren't sympathetic. They're oppressing people before even giving them a chance to live, which seems to cause more problems and create more evil mages than it controls. Also, how many people try to hide their children from the templars, only to not give them the proper instruction and have them become vessels for demons? If mages were free, it wouldn't be a big deal to have your kid go to a proper mage school, so nobody would refuse to send them.

Honestly, the way that the world handles the treatment of mages is very flawed and backwards.

[Akka le Vil]

Just as a side note, I'd like to remind all the retards that are unable to read about the title of this forum :

"Dragon Age II General Discussion (No Spoilers allowed)"

Thanks to all the suckers who revealed half of the plot point of the game.

[Grkljan]

I go all in for the templars, and it's my first playthrough. I think that mages should just calm down and be as Irving. Listen to the templars, but still be respected by them highly. As many of them are just whiners, Ill go with the templars.