204 réponses à ce sujet

[graciegrace]

I was full on mage supporter in origins. The events of DA2 make me question that position. I don't think the Templars work, but I don't think mages should be free to do as they please either.

I really appreciate the way Mages are handled in Dragon Age. I've never seen a fantasy setting before where having magic could be a bad thing

[zambingo]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The Chantry, via the Templars, only oppress mages. Their other governmental influences are unrelated to this specific issue.

Again, if all mages were just unilaterally killed as children none of this would be a problem at all. There would be no need for Templars and the Chantry would be robbed of much of its power and excuse to be a bully.

You can't be serious?

[Stalky24]

Templars have best looking armors in the game. I wish to wear it with my mage

Anyway, I hate Templars, since first day in the circle... I wish to move to Tevinter with my 
Warden and my Hawke, coz both have high skill in blood magic.

Modifié par Stalky24, 16 mars 2011 - 08:54 .

[the_one_54321]

zambingo wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
The Chantry, via the Templars, only oppress mages. Their other governmental influences are unrelated to this specific issue.

Again, if all mages were just unilaterally killed as children none of this would be a problem at all. There would be no need for Templars and the Chantry would be robbed of much of its power and excuse to be a bully.

You can't be serious?

No, it's mostly satire. The point is that the mages should just be thanking their lucky stars they are the subjects of oppression instead of being the subjects of a singleminded genocidal war.

[JamesX]

Guys, Seriously this the Spoiler Free Subforum.

Take your discussion to the Storyline Subforum.

[Tirigon]

Eh just a quick question to those saying that DA2 biases you towards mages.....

How?
I just finished act 2 and so far, even Meredith, the source of all evil, seems more likable than most mages.....

[Tirigon]

the_one_54321 wrote...

No, it's mostly satire. The point is that the mages should just be thanking their lucky stars they are the subjects of oppression instead of being the subjects of a singleminded genocidal war.

Naa, not really. In a war they´d win and be top dogs like in Tevinter.

Let´s face it: The Circle system only works cos the vast majority of mages (everywhere but in Kirkwall at least^^) thinks like Irving or the loyalists and either all-out supports the Chantry line or tries to ensure a bit more freedom for mages but overall supports a supervised circle as long as it´s not done in a Meredith way.

If, however, the choice would be "kill them all or be killed", there would no longer be any infighting, and they would become rulers of the world pretty quickly.

[Ceoilte]

Its a hard one, I can understand the mages from an abstract point of view and with Bethany in mind as well but at the same time I do think they need some oversight.
The main problem is the political infighting in Kirkwall where the Templar Knight Commander & First Enchanter were at each others throats very diff from The Circle in Ferelden. Personally I'd probably pair one templar per mage with both raised together in a sibling relationship.. Making sure that the Templar had  a crap load of anti mage weaponry as well when they took their duties. (Caramon & Raistlin type relationship springs to mind.) With the Templar raised to know if the mage slips and loses control to an abomination then its all over and the fat lady has sung. The Mage is no longer the person they love or respected and the Demon was just wearing their loved one like a meat puppet.
I RP'd my first Hawke (sword/shield templar) like that with Bethany. She loved her sister but she also knew she had a responsibility to the world if Bethany lost control too.

Which come to think of it was the vibe i got from Knight Commander of the Feralden Templars and The First Enchanter of the circle of Magi there. I could be onto something.

Modifié par Ceoilte, 16 mars 2011 - 09:51 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Tirigon wrote...

Eh just a quick question to those saying that DA2 biases you towards mages.....

How?
I just finished act 2 and so far, even Meredith, the source of all evil, seems more likable than most mages.....

Just wait till the end.

You'll run into some pretty sensible mages (one of which is your sister..or you)...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ceoilte wrote...

Its a hard one, I can understand the mages from an abstract point of view and with Bethany in mind as well but at the same time I do think they need some oversight.
The main problem is the political infighting in Kirkwall where the Templar Knight Commander & First Enchanter were at each others throats very diff from The Circle in Ferelden. Personally I'd probably pair one templar per mage with both raised together in a sibling relationship.. Making sure that the Templar had  a crap load of anti mage weaponry as well when they took their duties. (Caramon & Raistlin type relationship springs to mind.) With the Templar raised to know if the mage slips and loses control to an abomination then its all over and the fat lady has sung. The Mage is no longer the person they love or respected and the Demon was just wearing their loved one like a meat puppet.
I RP'd my first Hawke (sword/shield templar) like that with Bethany. She loved her sister but she also knew she had a responsibility to the world if Bethany lost control too.

Which come to think of it was the vibe i got from Knight Commander of the Feralden Templars and The First Enchanter of the circle of Magi there. I could be onto something.

Templars and mages aren't paired, AFAIK....but templars do watch over mages..for years.
It's safe to assume that templars know specific mages very well..probably better than mages know templars. It's a templars job to watch and be vigilant.

Even in Kirkwall we see plenty of templars who care for the mages...and if that letter from Bethanys friend in the circle is any indication, most templars are very nice people.

[joriandrake]

the idea of pairing isn't bad but there is a high risk to allow them become too attached to each other

[Akjosch]

joriandrake wrote...

the idea of pairing isn't bad but there is a high risk to allow them become too attached to each other

Why is that a bad thing?

In the human history, there even was an elite unit consisting of paired soldiers which were lovers: the Sacred Band of Thebes. They were so good, they beat a larger Spartan army at the battles of Tegyra and Leucra!

Modifié par Akjosch, 17 mars 2011 - 10:29 .

[Tirigon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Just wait till the end.
You'll run into some pretty sensible mages (one of which is your sister..or you)...

Yea well, I don´t think that yourself (yes I play mage:innocent:) count. After all, if you were given the option, I would totally make a deal with a demon like Flemeth did and f*ck those templars by changing into a huge dragon, and I already AM a bloodmage, soooo.....

I wish BioWare would allow you to roleplay a total assh*le.
I mean, obviously they couldn´t in DAO because the Archdemon doesn´t let humans or elves join, but why can´t I, say, make a deal with a demon to have him wipe out the templars.... or join the Qunari (for non-mages) etc?

That´s a huge waisted opportunity imo, the story in which you DON´T have to save everyone would have allowed you to join the dark side.....

[Tristam25]

I support thier base purpose to act as "mage police." But how far they've taken it? Unacceptable. I also do not support blood magic and demon-associated stuff.

(And to give my opinion on the pairing two people who are together to fight: It's probably better to do it because they would fight harder to keep each other safe; also, if one of them goes down the other would be royally ticked off. Come to think of it you should get a buff in combat of your near your character's LI.)

Modifié par Tristam25, 17 mars 2011 - 10:25 .

[Tirigon]

Tristam25 wrote...
Come to think of it you should get a buff in combat of your near your character's LI.)

I actually like this suggestion.

[Failbox]

I support the templars after this game.

[Sabariel]

I support both sides just as much as I want to strangle both sides. Makes things very difficult

[joriandrake]

Failbox wrote...

I support the templars after this game.

I just tried to replay the game as anti-blood mage, and the lacking options and streamlined story shows now that you can compare it to the first play, a good example on the badly made forced story is the "Act of Mercy", because I didn't find any way at all to kill Grace and the other mages (or atleast Grace) there and her presence is simply forced upon us even if it were pretty realistic to get rid of her/them in the cave as there are no eye witnesses neither, I wanted to avoid 'that' templar to get much later killed but it seems that is no option, I then got enough of the game and quit, and watched the ending movies on youtube, and finally realized there are only minor, MINOR differences between endings and basicly its about pro-mage or pro-templar and most of your ingame decisions don't matter at all

this is a terrible setback compare to DA1, DA2 story is even more on a "train track" than any of the Baldur's Gate games were (or even ME2), the very idea that a sibling of yours dies only based on what class you choose instead of a decision ingame whom you would try to save or maybe even be able to save both is horrid (even the Virmire choice was better and I already hated a forced death back then but that is nothing compared to a forced death based on class choice at game start), and that is something Bioware should be really ashamed of

I am more than disappointed, this is the first Bioware game that actually makes me pissed and angry on how it was done and I wish it could be undone

Modifié par joriandrake, 17 mars 2011 - 11:43 .

[CRISIS1717]

I support the Templars, they are a necessary evil to maintain order and to ensure everyone both mage and citizens can live together without chaos.

[MColes]

I don't support the mages, I support freedom. In this case, it just happens to be the mages. BUT I'll kill every last one of the bastards who causes trouble, on either side.

Realistically, the Templar have it right. They are NOT morally, or ethically right by any means, but that isn't always what's necessary. It's not up to a mage. They may have the best intentions in the world, but they can be possessed by demon's against their will. And it's more than a slim chance, that it might happen.

The fact is, The Needs of the Many outweigh the needs of the few. Spock was a wise man.

Would you wipe out a country, if it was the only way to save the entire world?

/edit

Naa, not really. In a war they´d win and be top dogs like in Tevinter.

Let´s
face it: The Circle system only works cos the vast majority of mages
(everywhere but in Kirkwall at least^^) thinks like Irving or the
loyalists and either all-out supports the Chantry line or tries to
ensure a bit more freedom for mages but overall supports a supervised
circle as long as it´s not done in a Meredith way.

If, however,
the choice would be "kill them all or be killed", there would no longer
be any infighting, and they would become rulers of the world pretty
quickly.

It's called the Exalted March.  Mages did used to rule, like Tevinter.  These are also the hypocritcal bastards who use slaves.  They're responsible for the Darkspawn, and every single Blight, ever.  They also were overthrown in a giant War, and that was before 80% of the continent believed in the same God and everyone hated mages. 

Modifié par MColes, 17 mars 2011 - 11:56 .

[Tirigon]

joriandrake wrote...

I just tried to replay the game as anti-blood mage, and the lacking options and streamlined story shows now that you can compare it to the first play,

[MANY SPOILERS!!!!]

While this sure is interesting, it really gets too far into spoilers for a non-spoiler forum....

[Tirigon]

MColes wrote...

Would you wipe out a country, if it was the only way to save the entire world?

No, I would kill its leaders, not the population.

Naa, not really. In a war they´d win and be top dogs like in Tevinter.

Let´s
face it: The Circle system only works cos the vast majority of mages
(everywhere but in Kirkwall at least^^) thinks like Irving or the
loyalists and either all-out supports the Chantry line or tries to
ensure a bit more freedom for mages but overall supports a supervised
circle as long as it´s not done in a Meredith way.

If, however,
the choice would be "kill them all or be killed", there would no longer
be any infighting, and they would become rulers of the world pretty
quickly.

It's called the Exalted March.  Mages did used to rule, like Tevinter.  These are also the hypocritcal bastards who use slaves.  They're responsible for the Darkspawn, and every single Blight, ever.  They also were overthrown in a giant War, and that was before 80% of the continent believed in the same God and everyone hated mages. 

The "responsible for the darkspawn" is most likely propaganda bullsh!t, and the Tevinter imperium was not actually defeated by the exalted march but by Andraste´s amazing mage powers.

It is told in Origins: Andraste (they call it the Maker, but o well...) first caused a famine to weaken the troops and kill most of them outright, then caused a flood and how much damage THAT can do we unfortunately see in Real Life atm..... and only after all that the Tevinters were beaten.
Because when they killed Andraste they, for whatever reasons, suddenly decided that Andraste was actually quite right and they should just let it happen.......

And about the slaves: Yes that is a real problem, and I don´t say that another mage empire is desirable. It is just, in my opinion, a more likely outcome of a war between mages and templars.

[Khayness]

I'm against stupid mages.

That Act 3 meeting pissed me off.

If I have ruined the game for you saying that there is a meeting in Act 3, sit on a cactus.

[Irishkev]

I don't support either I even tried to do that in the game till the templar said I have to chose. Basically they are both right and wrong in my eyes. They need to change the rules losen the rope better educate them on why. Histrory learn from it or your doomed to repeat it. We know the blight was caused by mages back in DA:O which brought on the intial restrictions for mages.

Modifié par Irishkev, 18 mars 2011 - 12:52 .

[Kemor]

benreeder2431 wrote...

Everyone I know who plays Dragon Age adore the mages. I have not met one templar supporter other than one attempting to get all the achievements, trophies, etc. I'm curious if you guys are actually out there. Personally, I'm a huge mage supporter. I don't even mind blood magic to a degree.


So, are you a full on mage supporter like me, a mage supporter who still thinks order is needed and blood magic is bad, or a templar supporter?

Big Templar fan. Beyond the whole Chantry propaganda, which can be separated from the Templars very easily, I totally understand the need to control/jail/annul mages and have great respect toward the ones willing to sacrifice their life to protect others.

Sure, there bad apples, but heh, it's "human".