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[FubarCFSnafu]

That is my point, it just seems the whole story and quests were just fedex packages. I mean the ideas I had are not great, but they would still work into the story and make it more complete.

As a matter of fact, here are some expanded upon quests that tie your character to the story and Kirkwall:
I though the main plot idea was a good idea. However, the story seemd to be a bit hollow and full of holes which left your story and your companions a bit hollow. This is especially true after supposedly knowing them for 10 years.

Hawke's Family:
I am not sure what our history was or of my background. We are running from Ferelden (Lothering) but I am not sureif I was a farmer, merchant, etc. It may be possible that I missed this, but it is hard to pin down. This could have been done so much better then what we received. You do get some bits and drabs through some conversation though.

1. Finding out the business that the Hawkes used to do. This could have been tied to the Bone Pit whose owner isHubert. A sub-plot could be getting it back either civilly (buyng it out or partnering) or underhanded (killing himor forcing hm to sell.

2. Going into the basement of the Hawke Estate: This was a good start but there was not much else to be found, it would have been nice to find other things of the past other than a portrait. The slavers used it, then there could have been secret rooms built into it for the use of slaves, etc. This would allow further explorations or other quests to find out the family history since apparently they live in Kirkwall.


3. Leandra. As you are aware of what happens to her, there is not much to go on with your character's mother. This could have been explored alot more and opened new insight in regards to your family. After you come back, she is now in the Hawke estate, saying a few things, but not much else. How about a quest to find a a possible husband for your mom. Your companions could have even helped, by keeping any eye out for one during their travels and they could talk to you about in a conversation cut scene. Picture each of the personalities involved, Aveline, Fenris, Merill, it could ahve provided foe some humorous moments. Afterwards, a wedding could take place where it would allow thecompanions to talk to one another during the reception and have the character dance or flirt during this time. Again, it allows immersion and story telling. The plot could still be followed and allow what happens to her in the end, but it would have been even more of an impact because you could now connect with her.

The Bone Pit:
This could ahve been a good jumping off point to provide some solid quests and reasoning behind it. Clearing the area of bandits, establishing a supply route, clearing out the monsters. And guess what, you now have a meaningful reason to go there on quests because you now have a motive to do so. You can also receive income from it once this has been done. You could receive several letters from Hubert with money in it.
This could also be taken a step further, you get it from Hubert, you now have a say on the merchant's guild because this mine supplies Kirkwall (with what, I ahve no idea what they are mining though). Now oyu ahve a further stake in Kirkwall and some quests or interaction can be done in regards to this, you can hire the Ferelden's this was touched upon, but nothing else was really done with it, instead it was left flat and empty. I mean, you could have a mining town grow around it where you ahve to protect it from bandits/darkspawn in another act or year.

Character Growth:
There isn't any other than by saying you are a noble with an estate or champion after Act II. How about the character eanring his nobility and be knighted in a ceremony after doing important work, such as the following:

1. Mage: Creating a new magic item that helps the city somehow, you ahve to do quests and move up the ranks next to the First Enchanter and the city recognizes this. Or you help try yo keep the peace by rooting out Blood Mages and abominations, finding lost texts of magic in the undercity when it was part of Tevinter. Create a new office in the Circle called First Artificer or something. Once completed you could have Merill or Anders could assist you or be your second in command. Afterwards You are part of a cermeony where you are recognized for your efforts. Again, allows for more party interaction. After a few years the office becomes larger and more people work there. this would pit you against Meredith and the Templars.

2. Warrior: You do work for the guards and Aveline or purchase yourself a comission in the Guards (this was done in Medieval times) and you use your party to do this. Such sub-plots could be the clearing of bandits of supply routes to Kirkwall. Creating a fort to protect the cleared area, howrever, this would involve speaking to the Dalish, finding a suitable site, creating a supply route, exploring/mapping the area, fend it off from attack. You can rise through the ranks and be knighted in a ceremony attended by your friends. Fenris and Aveline could take over the command of the new fort. After a few years, it becomes bigger and better. Again, allows for more party interaction. This could pit you agianst the Seneschal.

3. Rogue: You can find out a note in your basement which leads to a slaver guild within the city, you can fight totake it over or destroy it, if you take it over, you can get added income from it, but now you have to contend with your companions who are against slavery. This would allow for interesting dialog or once it is destroyed you then have to ake out other rival gangs and become the spymater of Kirkwall. Isabella and Varric could take this over.

Companions:
There are some that are done well, but again, you are suppsoed to be friends for seven years and not much is actually known about them.

1. Aveline was done well enough, but it was not really tied to anything, by making her a part of you character growth, it could be taken to a new level.

2. Merill: Other than the mirror and some dialog not much else is found, you can romance her but if this si someone you cared about, how about embarking on another quest to find out more about her such as finding out about her family.

As you can see much could have been added to tie everything together but unformatuntely this was not done. These were just some ideas I ahd in my head for about an hour and decided to write them down. I am not saying this is the best but if I could ahve come up with these ideas, surely DA2 could ahve had something similar. In addition, it would allow a better flow of meaningful quests that make sense to do instead of the current ones

Modifié par FubarCFSnafu, 01 avril 2011 - 07:52 .

[Aanna]

Furtled wrote...

Side-characters
Cullen, Thrask, Emeric etc. were great, however I missed the sense of a living breathing world that you got in DA:O from characters like Wade and the two sisters outside the Denerim chantry. The sparse population of Kirkwall and re-use of character models didn't help either. I get that all of this type of thing adds to the cost and work involved in making the game but it's those sort of little touches that really brought things to life for me before and really aided immersion.

Wow, great insight!  I can remember so many individual merchants from DAO, but from DA2 only Lirene and Hubert.  Those shopkeepers and NPCs that were always around and yet seemed to have their own lives and priorities in DAO made the towns and cities feel more alive.  They gave the locations personality.  Merchants in DA2 were just windows to open and not people to meet, while wandering NPCs to talk to were... nonexistant.  Is it immersion-breaking? No, but it makes for a dead-feeling city.

Huh, I really, really appreciate those interactions in DAO even more, now!

[Gigatyrant]

First I'd like to say I am concerned with the direction BioWare is going.I am primarily a console gamer who found the company with Star Wars:Knights of the Old Republic.I loved that game and Jade Empire too when it came out.Then came Mass Effect and despite suffering 3 RRoDs,half of my grand total of 6, while playing I loved it too.After having so many RRoDs I switched to only playing on PS3.I bought DA:O and later DA:O UE,for the DLC,on PS3 and despite having more noticeable bugs,which is part of my current concern with BioWare,it became my favorite game from them.Mass Effect 2 then came to PS3 and was ,and still is BTW,a buggy mess.I had my first 2 characters save corrupted and my next 2,through painstaking effort,got to finish it.I fear buying and playing the Arrival DLC until the game get fixed

Now on to what this topic is about Dragon Age 2.I feel the game was extremely rushed.the faster combat I like but the change wasn't needed.The story just isn't interesting.With no end goal I just didn't feel Hawke should've even continued adventuring after act 1.The companions didn't feel as well developed as they were in DA:O most are too whiny for my liking.Also why can I have only one choice for support mage?I'm sure you'll find Anders is one of the most used characters not because people like him but because he is the only healer available.Another thing why can't I change character weapon types?Case in point Isabella dies way too fast I'd like to switch her to an archer but I can't.BioWare can change a certain DA:O character who cameos,I won't elaborate due to spoilers,so I should too.Not being able to change companion armor was the wrong decision.A third equipment criticism is the generic names for accessories.I don't know how many amulet/rings/belts I picked up that I didn't know which one it was because the new item flag instantly disappears if you need to scroll to it.Lastly the bugs,notably the passive skill/freindship/armor set bug.I have nearly finished my 3rd playthrough,Act 3 in my 3rd,and 2 of my 3 were affected.My rogue got the Isabella bug my mage wasn't affected and my last currently has the armor set bug.This game needed 6 to 8 months at least of additional development time along with actually listening to the concerns of the community

In closing why I'm concerned with BioWare is the last few years they have apparently followed the idea "if its not broke break it anyway the public wil still buy it".Just look at the drastic yet mostly unneeded changes in the Mass Effect and Dragon Age sequels.Also despite what we are told they are listening less and less to their loyal community.As most can see recently that loyalty is being stretched thin.Finally most concerning to me is an apparent lack of QA testing or post launch support ,see BioWare recent history for releasing timely patches,for their games.After all most of the bugs/glitches for both DA2 and the PS3 version of ME2 should've been easily found and fixed prelaunch but here we are waiting for patches in both instances

At this point I don't know if I'm gonna get ME3 when it comes out.Truth be told it should be pushed into 2012.if not just to avoid Gears of War 3 Uncharted 3 and Skyrim,to name a few high profile games it'll be up against,but to put the finishing touches that the last 2 releases lacked

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

I don't know if anyone from Bioware even could comment on this, let alone if they would, but is the intention to return to the Origins style since II is obviously not as well received as Origins? Most of the criticism of II is of the changes that were made. There are also obviously criticisms of area re-use and respawning enemies and the like, but mostly of the deliberate changes to the way the game plays and unfolds. I haven't seen anyone complain about anything being too similar to Origins or having not been changed enough. The experiment obviously failed. The framed narrative only hindered the story. The voiced protagonist interfered with role playing. The combat was frantic and mindless. The restricted story makes replayability difficult/unappealing. And the dialogue wheel simplifies conversations to a laughable degree.
There are several things II improved upon, such as the talent trees over chains. But most of the changes have not been lauded. So is Bioware really getting the message?

Laidlaw has said in interviews that DA2 is the future of the franchise.

Did he say that before or after the public got a hold of the game?

[suhp0rts]

-So um what the hell am I even the champion of in this game?
-IMO champion is a pretty lame title. I miss being a badass grey warden.
-Anders was way better in Awakening than in DA2. Anders is Gay WTF. Thats a complete personality change from Awakening. Justice was probably secretly ****** and it rubbed off on Anders or something.
-Darkspawn was a joke. The original look was better and the darkspawn were more diverse in Origins.
-Recycling maps.. I dont think I need to make any comments on this
-Recycled weapon skins from Origins... Give me something new not something I've already seen. I honestly thought that the weapons looked better in Origins.
-No weapon effects from enchanting. I always thought it was pretty sweet to have a weapon that was on fire or had the cold aura coming off of it in Origins.
-By the end of this game I was so sick of hearing the bickering of the Templars and Mages that I just wanted to completely wipe them both out and be done with it.
-Sebastian was a joke of a DLC character. What's the point of putting in a DLC character that you will have to make a certain decision about towards the end of the game. Its just stupid. Yet another 1up for Origins.
-The only act I really enjoy actually playing is act 3. This act system is really lame and just doesn't appeal to me and really makes replaying the game a drag. I hope Origins goes back to an Origins style format for DA3.

-Bioware I beg you to take some time on DA3 because I don't want another half assed sequel to end the trilogy.
As a sequal this game blows and deserves a 6/10. If this game was not a sequel then I would have given it a 7.5/10 but its not. I don't want people to think that I hated this game because this isn't the case. The game was fun but when you have to make a sequel to a game with the reputation of Origins you have to do it right and I don't think this game was done right.

[Furtled]

@Aanna

Yeah, I was walking through the city deliberately looking for environment changes (I did notice one or two but they're too subtle to have any impact sadly) when that hit me. It might be juvenile but the 'chanter says what' bit from Lothering in Origins still makes me grin, along with the food obsessed Sister, the Orlesian merchant on the run because her brother defended her honour and the bickering between Wade and Herrin; they had nothing to do with the story beyond the odd bit of information or gear but they really brought things to life.

I wasn't expecting another Origins with DA2 but I did think those kinds of little touches would carry through since they feel so integral in drawing you into the game world.

Modifié par Furtled, 01 avril 2011 - 10:23 .

[Furtled]

FubarCFSnafu wrote...
Hawke's Family:
I am not sure what our history was or of my background. We are running from Ferelden (Lothering) but I am not sureif I was a farmer, merchant, etc. It may be possible that I missed this, but it is hard to pin down. This could have been done so much better then what we received. You do get some bits and drabs through some conversation though.

Thinking about it I wonder if it would have helped to have Hawke set-up in a similar manner to Shepherd in ME1 - giving you an option of a couple of different backgrounds to help ground the character more, that and adding more family interaction and some Ostegar/Lothering scenes prior to legging it across the blighted countryside.

[Grissium]

Woot a focused thread, here are my 2 cents

Liked
- Kirkwall.  I really hated this city in a good way.  I got kind of invested in cleaning it up a bit and protecting my Fereldan brothers and sisters.  While it wasn't perfect I liked getting to know the city really well.  It felt like a character.

- Combat Kinda.  Going back to Origins combat feels so slow, I liked how responcive it was on the PC.  Also I liked that some attacks hit more than just the target but also other guys close by.

- Minions.  I liked that in combat there were lots of guys, some were easy to kill and some were hard.  Waiding through two or three guys really quickly makes you feel pretty damn awesome.  One of the subtle things I liked about Aragorn in the Lotr movies was he could just murder things for hours, and then every so often he had to stop and fight somebody.  It let you know that whatever he had to stop and fight was somebody iimportant.

- Character Armor (or lack there of).  Yes I was annoyed with this at first, until I remembered how annoyed I was in the first game playing hand me down with all the armor that people had.  As long as things scale correctly I don't have a problem with it in the slightest.

- Party Banter.  It was much better in this one.

- Hawke Family.  Some people hate it, others like it, I get both points of view.  But I agree in fantasy almost always your hero has his family murdered in front of them and you vow revenge.  Having your family around was a neat change of pace for me and I enjoyed it quite a bit.

- Story structure.  I liked it tons it was new and fun.  Can't think of any game that tried to do it that way.

Disliked

- Waves of Enemies.  Gauntlet events aren't a bad thing, the problem was every combat was a Gauntlet and it got very repetitive.  Not saying never do it again, just don't make every combat a gauntlet.

- Time.  I figured out the other day where the "about a Decade" comes from within the game.  Prologue is a year, followed by Act 1 which also takes about a year, then a jump of 3 years to Act 2 which takes about a year, then a 3 year jump to Act 3 which also takes place over about a year.  1+1+3+1+3+1 = 10.  The problem was there is a disconnect between time passing during the year you are questing.  (see time passing idea)

- I missed "camp."  There were a lot more conversations you could get in randomly in the first one.  While the party banter kind of stepped up to replace it.  Nothing really beat talking to your people and them having way to much to say and share.  I just feel like I didn't have quite enough interaction with them.

- Getting to Kirkwall.  When you get to Kirkwall in Act 1 you need to have a bigger splash cinamatic happen.  I never really got where the Gallows were in relation to the city, or what the city looked like, beyond that styleized map.  Considering the city was such a character, I never really got a good view of what it actually looked like.  Hell you made this AWESOME concept art piece showing the city, but I didn't see anything really like that in-game.

- Ending.  DA2 suffered a lot from middle of the trilogy syndrome with the ending.  Because not much was wrapped up (I sided with the mages), and nothing felt completed or finished.  The ending was basically a "we will finish this thread (maybe) in Dragon Age 3."  In most framed narritives the end of the movie is when the story catches up to the present and we wrap up the theme of the story.  If the world you have crafted is rich enough and has enough stories to share, then wrapping up a story should be possible.  It bugs me when TV shows or games do the cliffhanger thing, and then another game never gets made so you stand there hanging with an unfinished story.

- Repeating Maps:  Nuff said.  You probably could have gotten away with it if you put in a few bigger set pieces during boss encounters.  Like a special unique room off a corredor.  Also you go to the sewers a few times but they don't look very sewery.  But yeah the repeating maps got old pretty quick.  The first game had some very obvious repeating tile sets but at least the layout was unique.  I'd rather have ugly maps with unique layouts, than pritter maps with fixed ones any day.

Ideas

- Time Passing:  Random idea, say Act 1 has 21 quests to it.  There are 4 seasons.  Why
not make it so every 7 quests or so the season would change?  Say Act 1
starts in the Summer, after 7 quests or so it would become Autumn. 
Maybe people dress more warmly, the leaves in the Alienage tree turn,
that type of thing.  7 more quests and we have winter, with snow, people
dressed very warmly etc.  7 More quests and things thaw and go into
spring mode.  And then when the act finishes we have come round to
summer.

- DAO Patch:  I think you guys missed some marketing gold.  You should have released a little patch to Dragon Ago Origins that updated things to bring them more in line with the DA2 design.  Maybe give Qunari horns or have Sten have armor more fitting how they looked in the sequel.  Put Merrell in her outfit, give the Keeper of the Dalish tribe a pony tail.  Have one of the Hawkes hanging around Lothering.  Put the Male/Female Hawke hair into the character generator (along with the male Hawke beard), add a blood brand tat to the first game.  Put isabela in unique armor that looks like her DA2 armor.  Stuff like that.

- Aging.  Some of the NPC's should have aged as the game progressed.  It would have been nice if you got to know a little kid in Act 1, find them a young teen in Act 2, and have them a young man/woman in Act 3.  Or maybe even put in a feature where Hawke would age as the game progresses.  (probably should add a feature to turn it off).

- Toolset:  I think you guys should release this.  Almost all the DLC in the first game was better than the fan made stuff.  There were a few exceptions that were as good as the original but they were fairly rare.  But Dragon Age Origins will probably never die completely because the tools are there to keep adding stuff.  Give your second baby a chance to shine in the same way!

[groaaaa]

probably just adding fuel to the fire but the build up and description of all my plot critical decisions just seemed so hollow when i examined what had come across from my origins saves, i know that any deaths, destruction, etc etc are going to be nothing but a footnote or a passing mention from a new companion in the dlc or expansion following dragon age 2. This needs to be addressed as alot of the appeal of Origins for me was the niggle in the back of my head that i should do as a good a job as possible at getting the best ending because it would have implications in some form of future story telling, and honestly you can call a 2 minute cameo from 1 - 3 old characters along with a few sentances of personalised codex entry what you like but its not good enough. I have bought every dlc for both dragon age and mass effect 1-2 along with all the dlc. And this problem isnt going anywhere.

[mr fried]

You know what, I totally missed it in the list of things I found were missing or wrong, but it's such a slight touch that when it's gone you feel things are lacking but can't quite put your finger on it... Maybe it's because I feel there are some really big issues that the small issues and tweaks get overlooked also.
The city populations in Origins were alot more visual, there were shops and bars/pubs you could go into, there needed to be more of those, there were too few talkative locals or colourful charactors and hardly anyone there, as said before the Dalish camp in DA2 is pretty empty, in Origins it was so full of elves and we could feel and experiance it's culture, listen to stories and the like. We could have seen and experianced more quests from the Dalish too.
The Hanged Man was under used, so was the Blooming Rose, rather than just have so many side quests come as a letter there could have been more quest givers in those locations like with Denerim, they could have been mini quest hubs especially The Hanged Man as it's suposed to be a 'hive of scum and villainy'
On the inventory there needs to be an 'All' tab
With weapons wither provide weapons that have their own visual effects or allow the enchantments to provide those effects (flaming weapons or ice weapons)
With quest one thing I've read is that some feel there were alot of pointless side quests, now while the Fetch Quests were pointless, the side quests just badly done, in Origins there were alot more side quests, each quest was picked up in an area, it related to that areas story and lore also there was a progression where some quests lead to other quests. What would have been better here would have been spaced out quest hubs, more of them linking with other quests or events and quests that would put you in good standing with certain different groups. 

Things I feel DLC could address;
A map pack with more locations and more perminant locations, open up some of those shops and put in sellers and crafters that will have some banter. Change the mini locations to provide more unique locations, I liked the suggested idea that as you progress through the years in Kirkwall other areas could open up.
Extra companion dialogue, just so we can get to know them better, know their stories and pasts, the companions in DA2 have the ability to become some of the best companions in a Bioware game, there was not one companion I disliked and never used (although Anders had changed alot and not always in good ways) but to have it when talking in companion places and different bits when out and about.
More family interaction
A visual pack that allows Kirkwall to visually age and even tidy up the odd place, companions could even referbish their homes/offices a little (Merril, Fenris, Aveline) and even address the issue with the Darkspawn, restoring their earlier look, even elvescould be adjusted a little.
Allow Hawke to expand his home like with Mass Effect 2, a couple of paintings wouldn't hurt, you could get books from Varric and have them put into the bookshelf where you could read them in a simular way the different pieces of information open up before going into the codex, trophies and general pretty things.

Big DLC additions could include:
Lothering/Origin story, let us spend time with the family in Lothering get some sort of connection and bonds with the family we could see some of the Templar/Bethany interactions that were hinted at, let us fight at Ostagar and escape from the fight, retreat to Lothering, do whatever delayed the leaving of there so that we have to flee and see the Darkspawn attacking and the start of the distruction of Lothering.
This would not only better connect the game with Origins but also provide a chance to see some of the changes the Warden made while passing through.

First year in Kirkwall, I said it before and I'll say it again, I want to see and play that first year, making contacts, friends and enemies, this could expand Kirkwall greatly, add new areas, doing quests that build your reputation (and will also allow you to channel that reputation in what you want it to be, as you are never told exactly what that reputation is, just simply that you have quite the reputation)  I didn't mind the game not having a huge story, but I was expecting to really forge my rise to power, we could also get introduced to the big main stories earlier and at the end of it we could be told about the Deep Roads expidition as a hint or advice from the head of the group you were in service for, something like; they will not be able to help and protect/hide you from the templars/chantry any longer, but there is an expidition which if you can join will allow you to protect/hide yourself.
I would also like to see the return from the Deep Roads, maybe have them extended a bit also, but to be able to do the whole petitioning for the estate, would add extra family interaction and dialogue even including the whole "whats happened to Carver/Bethany?" conversation

"Spoiler warning*

A big alteration from a DLC could fix/change the end of the game.
Give us a choice that feels weighted where if we turn left we follow only that path, if we turn right we see whats down that road, not have it so that even if we pick a side we still end up fighting both sides, this wouldn't affect the absolute end only the playable end as in the epilogue the side that is left alive could get assassinated, maybe that would give Hawke reason to leave, it would make more sence than him/her just bailing on Kirkwall if he left feeling (s)he was hunted (wo)man and not to see Kirkwall dragged into more chaos and distruction.
With that there could be a third path, you could choose niether side to which Meredith could decide if you're not part of the solution then you are part of the problem and attack you, hell you could probably make it that the Chantry isn't destroyed in the way it happens with some deplomacy thus allowing you to defuse the initial problem but move you down the middle path where Meridith decides you are too powerful or are moving against the Templars/Chantry if you've shown yourself to be sided with the mage on past quests and comes to confront you directly about it, or even uses the excuse of you being an apostate or habouring even helping apostates (this is something that was hinted about at the very start of the game when it was said she was the real power and they would hate to see what would happen if the viscount ever did something that moved against her.) Or if you've mostly sided with the Templars you could get Orsino come plead with you, to which you can either side with whomever has come to confront you, or  turn against them and face the inevitable fight.
Again this doesn't change much as the epilogue could still have it getting destroyed in the fighting that erupted and the same people die in the crossfire.

What this would do is give our choices the illusion of wieght and meaning, so while the end is fixed, how we get there isn't (with the epilogue being the only thing that is fixed with the main story) it would allow us to feel like we can influence our companions and still mostly save the day for the side we chose even if the main charactor for either side dies afterwards in the epilogue (I'm thinking like with Harrowmont) so while the choice still wouldn't be totally open as some may like, it keeps it open enough to make enough people happy (hopefully) while allowing Bioware to be able to still have then ending they wanted to follow on with in DA3.

Modifié par mr fried, 01 avril 2011 - 11:40 .

[RuinerGaming]

My honest and (hopefully) constructive critisism of Dragon Age 2. Hopefully i've left it spoiler free.
I'm only my 3rd playthrough right now.

Recycled Maps

I was okay with it when i first started playing the game, but being a collector having to find everything before moving on it turned out to be a PAIN having to go through the same area so many times. Some of the caves/dungeons were copy-pastes from other areas where you did not even bother removing the closed off areas from the minimap, making it blatantly obvious.

Enemy encounters

- Too random! Most enemies just appear out of thin air when a new wave appears, only a few actually drop down from roofs and such. Making enemies appear like this constantly makes tactics useless. Less enemy explosions please, and please give us a menu option to let corpses stay without fading away.

Story

This is my major gripe with Dragon Age 2, but i'll try to make it short

- Why are the tragic/sad events handled so poorly? Some very important scenes left me feeling....nothing, even for characters i cared for. Hawke could use more personality and display more emotion.

- Most of the events i feel like i'm just being dragged along without any real chance to make a difference in the end. A good example of this is Zathrian in Dragon Age Origins and how you handle the Werewolf/Dalish situation, i was actually shedding tears at the ending of that quest.

- This game felt too linear, no matter what i did it would enevitably just be a very minor distraction.
Most of the quests like the deliveries were just annoying, Hawke felt too distant in dealing with them when speaking like it was more of a chore that did not concern him/her.

- We need more options to interact with the story, sometimes the choice i want to make is one i'm not allowed to make.

Gameplay

- Sword and Shield tanks sometimes feel useless in fights. It feels like Taunt is ineffective at times, while Rogues armistice and goad seems almost overpowered so long you have someone to soak the damage.

- Playing as a rogue, slowed enemies just out of reach running toward an ally is the most annoying to auto attack because you do that really short ranged butterfly kick move that actually is much slower than the enemy and does VERY little damage, and you keep repeating the move over and over until the enemy stops or you move away.

- Make boss fights require not only strategy but tactics such as moving away from a large attack

Interface

- Felt like a downgrade from the Dragon Age : Origins interface in general, too clunky and unnessecary bits.

Companions

- Let us talk to companions proper while on quests without having to visit them!

- Most companions had very few redeeming qualities that made us care for them, they need to share more background with you and open up more

- Certain temporary companions were grossly mishandled and tossed away

Other

- I can't properly explain it but the whole of Dragon Age 2's backgrounds felt dead and lifeless, and exploring felt almost depressing

- The BUGS, certain storyline cutscenes gets played before you get the quest etc. Needs fixing

All in all, i did like Dragon Age 2 very much but it just felt like another RPG to me. Biowares speciality is story, you did good in this game but you could do better. Bring the emotion back!

Modifié par Ruiner667, 02 avril 2011 - 12:52 .

[Spankoman]

Grissium wrote...

Liked
- Kirkwall.  I really hated this city in a good way.  I got kind of invested in cleaning it up a bit and protecting my Fereldan brothers and sisters.  While it wasn't perfect I liked getting to know the city really well.  It felt like a character.

Well put. I took ownership of the fate of the city, despite its flaws. I was unreasonably pissed off when Anders did what he did.

[am_victory]

Just my .02...

Junk - doesn't really bother me.  I've been picking up junk in games since 1992 - I guess I'm conditioned.

Companion armor - I actually love the way they handled it.  Finding upgrades is fun.  Digging through mounds of gear and comparing stats on 8 different characters... not so much.  I would prefer if the characters had a subtle difference in their appearance after each upgrade, though.  Or, maybe let us choose one of three outfits for each character, or maybe have them change a bit at the start of each act.  But the upgrades - I hope that's here to stay.

Re-used maps:  This irritates me.  It wouldn't be so bad if the mini-map at least reflected which sections were being used / not being used.  Honestly, had they done that, I don't think it would be so immediately obvious just how recycled the maps were.

Wave combat - I liked the combat.   It'd be nice if they'd use the waves mechanic more sporadically (like.. 50% of the time instead of 90%).

Linear - didn't feel linear at all to me.  As far as I can tell, there is nothing that says you have to do anything in any particular set order.

City not big enough - I thought it was fine.  I was also fine with it being the only city.  As others have said, it let me get invested in the city, emotionally speaking.  If I'd have had five or six cities to run around in, I probably wouldn't have cared all that much about any particular one.

As for the rest - didn't bug me at all.  The only real issue I have is the reused maps.

Thanks for the thread

Modifié par am_victory, 02 avril 2011 - 01:27 .

[Kaze105]

Reused maps - God, I hated this. Every time I went into a cave or some room, I remember how it looks or how the maps was. Gives me a sense of disappointment when I can estimate when an enemy will appear.

Armors - This sucked. I didnt know you could upgrade companions armor until it was too late and forced me to do practically everything. I was a tank and I wanted another tank with 2 mages. I ended up using 3 mages or 2 mages + 1 ranged all time since my tank companions were so darn weak to attacks.

Junk - I didnt see the point of this. I picked up like 100 junk for no reason, but to sell at a very cheap price. I do remember some junk type things in DAO, but it sure wasnt as much as DA2. I wish they could have put more useful items.

Potions - Another reason why I had to use mages and ended up siding with the mages when I was a tank. I needed anders on my side so that I dont die. It was fairly annoying to have to wait forever for the cooldown time. (I had to run around in circles like an idiot to wait for potions to be ready)

City - I didnt mind the city, but the reused maps didnt help the impact. With the didnt area (caves, rooms) reused, going back and forth to the same city place made it seem more disappointing. I wish they could have made it like DAO where you seem to travel around in the red dot, instead of showing a loading sign. I enjoyed traveling in DAO waiting for an ambush, but since DA2 only shows a loading screen, it didnt have much of a surprise impact when I got ambushed.

Story - I actually like this in all honesty. I enjoyed the total time of the story (10+ years or whatever?)

Companion mages - It was odd. I put in a lot of points on my main tank character for strength. For some reason though, the attacks of my mages (normal attacks) do more damage than around 2-3 attacks from my main character tank. (sword + shield)

Waves of enemies - I didnt like this. It wasnt so thrilling to see enemy pop up out of no where again, and again, and again. I just placed some of my characters in the area where the enemy came and I was easily able to kill them. I wish bioware put the enemy like they did in DAO.

Talking to companions - Bioware should have made it so that you can talk to characters excluding time for a mission. You could increase friendly points in DAO by talking to them at random times, but you cant even start a conversation excluding times there is a big yellow arrow over their heads.

Anders - Gay? Well ok, fine, but make an option where he doesnt seem gay. Since I relied on him a lot, i thought ill get on his good side. Conversation was fine, until the time where he starts to seem gay. I wish there was a way so that you can talk to him and by going through a certain dialog route, you wont see the option of flirting with him. Seeing the love heart during dialog with him freaked me out a bit.

Overall, it wasnt bad at all to me in all truth. Bioware seems to have put more effort and time with the story itself and I thought it was great. The lack of options in a ton of things ended up disappointing me. If they included options from DAO (different maps, armor for companions, non junk items) and included this storyline, They would have gotten an A+ from me. With the lack of the options though, they get a B for this game.

Hopefully DA3 (if ever) would be better than this.

Modifié par Kaze105, 02 avril 2011 - 03:37 .

[sphinxess]

Here is a plot hole I dont get - where are the seekers all this time - they are the oversite arm of the chantry and yet they only appear long after everything blows up? The codex reads they were created to prevent these problems...

[Horus Blackheart]

That's a good point, and it would have made for a very interesting "third way" option that I felt was sorely lacking in the plot.

[Steppenwolf]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Alex Kershaw wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

I don't know if anyone from Bioware even could comment on this, let alone if they would, but is the intention to return to the Origins style since II is obviously not as well received as Origins? Most of the criticism of II is of the changes that were made. There are also obviously criticisms of area re-use and respawning enemies and the like, but mostly of the deliberate changes to the way the game plays and unfolds. I haven't seen anyone complain about anything being too similar to Origins or having not been changed enough. The experiment obviously failed. The framed narrative only hindered the story. The voiced protagonist interfered with role playing. The combat was frantic and mindless. The restricted story makes replayability difficult/unappealing. And the dialogue wheel simplifies conversations to a laughable degree.
There are several things II improved upon, such as the talent trees over chains. But most of the changes have not been lauded. So is Bioware really getting the message?

Laidlaw has said in interviews that DA2 is the future of the franchise.

Did he say that before or after the public got a hold of the game?

And that's assuming that he'll even be in a leadership position on DA3. After the moderately low sales of DA2 he might not get the big job for the next one.
And it wouldn't make sense from a business standpoint to continue the model of the weaker title.

[HawXV2]

BasilKarlo wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Alex Kershaw wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

I don't know if anyone from Bioware even could comment on this, let alone if they would, but is the intention to return to the Origins style since II is obviously not as well received as Origins? Most of the criticism of II is of the changes that were made. There are also obviously criticisms of area re-use and respawning enemies and the like, but mostly of the deliberate changes to the way the game plays and unfolds. I haven't seen anyone complain about anything being too similar to Origins or having not been changed enough. The experiment obviously failed. The framed narrative only hindered the story. The voiced protagonist interfered with role playing. The combat was frantic and mindless. The restricted story makes replayability difficult/unappealing. And the dialogue wheel simplifies conversations to a laughable degree.
There are several things II improved upon, such as the talent trees over chains. But most of the changes have not been lauded. So is Bioware really getting the message?

Laidlaw has said in interviews that DA2 is the future of the franchise.

Did he say that before or after the public got a hold of the game?

And that's assuming that he'll even be in a leadership position on DA3. After the moderately low sales of DA2 he might not get the big job for the next one.
And it wouldn't make sense from a business standpoint to continue the model of the weaker title.

Low? It's been one damn month.

[cljqnsnyc]

I originally posted this in another forum.  CC seems more appropriate since basically, that's what my statement is.


This game has many glarring flaws. The story feels disjointed and uneven in many places and the sense of immersion kept breaking for me, even when I began to enjoy areas of the game. For instance...

Playing a mage...

I love magic! Couldn't imagine myself playing a non magical being in any of the games I play.  I really enjoyed the twist DAO came up with...treating them as if they were inflicted with a disease, feared, misunderstood. It makes for great storytelling. In DA2, being a mage SHOULD make you more or less an outlaw, since you are an apostate who has never been under lock and key. You would have to be very careful notto draw to much attention to yourself for fear of being captured...a lesson I'm sure your apostate father surely taught you well.  Kirkwall is a city FILLED with Templars. Do they notice you? Not a chance! Even Cullen....who knows all to well how dangerous some mages can be doesn't even bother.  In a conversation he looked dead at Hawke and says, "Mages aren't like YOU or me!"  What? Did he not see me throw that fireball not 20 minutes earlier? And what's with that staff on my back? In one
instance, mage Hawke looks at Cullen after generalizing all mages as dangerous and says, "I have friends that are mages, should they be locked up as well?"  Fascinating! The Templars don't react to your use of magic in any way, even in The Gallows! They FINALLY get wind of your magic much later on, but by then it doesn't really matter. Even Meredith's empty threats to you about changing your status. Whatever. 

A good subplot would have been resentment towards Hawke by the circle mages. Really, why does this
guy/gal get to walk around free and they don't?


How about the opening of the game? 

Hawke and his/her family are new to us. We don't know anything about them or their history. We are thrown into the mix and are just told by the game to accept things as is. Period! Certain events transpire within 5 minutes of you, the player, meeting this family. You've barely gotten a few words out to these people. They're more or less a perfct strangers to the gamer. Why should you care?  The game just expects you to simply because....  Doesn't make sense to me.  Where's the beginning?  It already happened off screen I guess. Varric decided to leave that part
out. It's almost like walking into a film 40 minutes after it already started. The characters weren't established enough at this point to care about what was happeneing to them.


Arriving in Kirkwall..
                                              
Since
we really don't know much about this city or it's dynamics, or even
Hawke, this would have been the time to establish a foundation. Instead of glossing over year one, spend it actually building a reputation working to pay off your debts, dodging Templars..if you're a mage, and developing a relationship with the city and your family...since we, the players, don't really know them. The silly fed ex quests could have been replaced with story elements that work towards the plot. Instead, we are simply thrown in a year later and told to accept the situation as is...period!  There were so many chances to flesh out the characters andthe story in that first year. This would have served the plot much better in my opinion and set the tone for things to come.



Kirkwall...over the course of a decade?

 Many things change over the course of a decade. The conservatism of 1960 became the liberation of 1970. How about the tech boom that occured from 1990 to 2000? You get the idea. What a great opportunity to
show how the world around you has changed and the part you played in it. Kirkwall NEVER CHANGED! The same people in the same places, doing and saying the same things for 10 years?  Actually, it isn't even 10 years, it's 7. Even so, the only significant thing that moved at all wasthe Quanari. Everything else, the same. Broken immersion. Okay, you move up in the world, but even that should have been shown to make you
feel it was happeneing to you, not simply a montage.




 There really isn't even a need to go into the magically spawning enemies that hate you with a passion for reasons unknown or the unbelievable abuse ofthe same cave, house, etc.  It almost felt like the game used any excuse to create combat situations just for the hell of it. That was my impression. I had mixed feelings about the combat. It was a step in the right direction but it isn't fully realized IMO. Evereything happens in a flash, then starts again, and again, and again......


 I will say the spell animations and talent trees are major improvements over DAO and I did grow to like some of the characters. I only wish I got to know them better which would have made them feel more alive.  I wished Kirkwall had a soul like most major cities. It's supposed to be a character in this story but never felt like anything more than a prop. The lack of customization never bothered me because I knew mods would quickly reverse that problem. If I was a console gamer however, i would have cried foul! Come to think of it, mods have greatly improved my
experience with DA2, but that's no surprise since modding is almost essential for me in rpgs.


I don't hate the game. Very disappointed with it though. I guess I can best describe my relationship with it as being a frenemy.  We get along somewhat but there's this underlying indifference we have for each other.  I'm hopeful though. Bioware is a great company and they have made most of the games that inhabit my pc. Quality dlc, patches, a toolset update, maybe an expansion, could go a long way to breathe life into this game. Hell, these things might even soften the vitriolic tone of it's most vehement detractors. Maybe.... 


We'll see what happens.

Modifié par cljqnsnyc, 02 avril 2011 - 09:34 .

[nicethugbert]

DA2 has a number of elements that I find very engrossing and enjoyable.

[] Faster movement and attack speed and immediate reaction is very very engrossing. DA2 delivers here. This is a break through in RPGs that other RPGs would do well to incorporate. Other games are too sluggish for me, NWN2 is particularly so, DA:O to an extent.

[] Animations, are very very good, again, engrossing. You don't have to imagine that something happened, you saw it happen in spectacular color and clarity. Entire NWN series, is particularly offensive in regards to animations. DA2 get's it right.

[] Full voice overs are great! Even DA:O sounds stilted without the full voice overs, like half a movie.

[] DA2 requires more attention to detail from the player than typical RPGs because not everything is said directly to you by some almighty quest giver in one big speech surrounded in a halo standing on a parade float. Clues abound to be put together by the vigilant player. Companion interaction, notes, Examine MEs, strolling NPC's, etc. all become more useful sources of information because no one is grabbing you by the lapels and shouting in your face, "Hi, you can pay attention now! This is important! Not fluff!"

[] It's a dark story where the champion cannot make everything right. Bad things will happen and that is just the way it's going to be. It gives a sense of a bigger more surprising world than one where the PC can avoid all ill fate and can extend his protective bubble on the universe.

[] You can't just kill off your companions because they annoy you personally and then pretend your character is some savior because you said so. I think this is good.

[] Some companions are just going to do stuff, especially if you ****** them off. You don't own them. This is good by my standards.

[] The dialog wheel with icons and paraphrases is a good thing. It always makes Hawke's dialog more interesting because you don't know exactly what he will say or exactly how he will say it. By extension it makes the NPC dialog less predictable too.

[]  The story is well focused on developing Hawkes personality in action.  From the start you are thrust into action.  There is no non-sense like dog getting Hawke's slippers as he wakes up from an afternoon nap in lothering.  Personality in action is engrossing, not the little things like non-perials on icecream on a Lothering afternoon.

[]  Multiwave encounters keeps the combat exhilirating because you don't know exactly when it will end.  It makes you conserve timered resources and reposition instead of sit on a perch.

[]  Dog rulz!

On the negative side:

[] In some cases it seems that party mages are not given as much notice as they should deserve. In most cases it is easy to excuse because corruption in Kirkwall is rampant, Hawke is quite the crime fighter, scamp, and badass, and only some templars seem to really enjoy going after mages. But, a more fleshed out mage response mechanism would really help the game. Even people like me who don't need to feel connections to characters but are content to observe and play them and pick up on the environmental clues can see large inconsistencies in some spots with regard to how party mages, even Mage Hawke, draw no attention.

[]  Not having multi-player is very limiting in my book.

[]  Toolset?  Can the DA:O toolset be used?  I found the DA:O toolset more limiting that the NWN2 Toolset.  NWN2 toolset can use user written plugins which is indispensible to me in making NWN2 areas.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 02 avril 2011 - 11:39 .

[Packofpickledpeppers]

bEVEsthda wrote...

[Packofpickledpeppers]

HawXV2 wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Alex Kershaw wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

I don't know if anyone from Bioware even could comment on this, let alone if they would, but is the intention to return to the Origins style since II is obviously not as well received as Origins? Most of the criticism of II is of the changes that were made. There are also obviously criticisms of area re-use and respawning enemies and the like, but mostly of the deliberate changes to the way the game plays and unfolds. I haven't seen anyone complain about anything being too similar to Origins or having not been changed enough. The experiment obviously failed. The framed narrative only hindered the story. The voiced protagonist interfered with role playing. The combat was frantic and mindless. The restricted story makes replayability difficult/unappealing. And the dialogue wheel simplifies conversations to a laughable degree.
There are several things II improved upon, such as the talent trees over chains. But most of the changes have not been lauded. So is Bioware really getting the message?

Laidlaw has said in interviews that DA2 is the future of the franchise.

Did he say that before or after the public got a hold of the game?

And that's assuming that he'll even be in a leadership position on DA3. After the moderately low sales of DA2 he might not get the big job for the next one.
And it wouldn't make sense from a business standpoint to continue the model of the weaker title.

Low? It's been one damn month.

Yes, low, as in it's selling much less across all platforms low than DAO did at this point in its release when it had the advantage of game of the year name recognition and a bigger advertising campaign with a bunch of preorder bonuses to entice buyers and still failed.  That kind of low.

[Zeevico]

Scaled enemies are, in my view, problematic. I don't mean to oversimplify. I think (and forgive me for being a traditionalist) that having static level enemies *can*, when done right, give a greater sense of immersion than scaling enemies.
The classic example is in DnD. The first time you meet a goblin-they're a challenge. Now, if you meet a goblin at level 10, they're a nuisance to wipe out in a moment. But the fact that they're a nuisance effectively recognises that your character is no longer at level 1. This is, in my view, beneficial. Individual darkspawn shouldn't be challenging after a certain point. You can take them at level 1-3; ergo, they're a level 1-3 challenge. In large groups their challenge increases, of course, but otherwise, the notion of fighting darkspawn at level 20 is (and does) kill immersion, because suddenly you're facing darkspawn (or other enemies) who, logic dictates, should not pose the same threat as they once did. And yet they do; and they drop high level equipment, to boot. That's my gripe, anyway.

[nicethugbert]

I agree that there are better and worse ways of scaling enemies. Scaling is worse when used on generic enemies. It's better when used on uniques. Also, if the story implies a heirarchy among enemies then scaling has to be done in such a way that the heirarchy is not contradicted.

An example of what I think is better scaling is something like: boss level equals party level, boss gets one leutenant per five levels, leutenant gets one sargent per 5 levels, each sargent gets 5 privates. I guess something like a military heirarchy is what I think works better, at least where it is appropriate to the monster type.

[Packofpickledpeppers]

Pallette swapped enemies with different skills, better AI, and obviously different names from one tier to the next would be a vast improvement over this enemy scaling stuff they have going on in DA.