2797 réponses à ce sujet

[Shibibiba]

I also never really liked Anders in DA2... the whole 'Anders/spoiler' personality thing just.. rubbed me the wrong way.

Now, maybe if Wynne were in the game in Anders place.... I could live with that.  Considering her history in the circle, I could easily imagine her following similar plotlines to Anders. He just felt very forced in, gameplay wise.

Modifié par Shibibiba, 12 avril 2011 - 09:09 .

[Tommy6860]

Shibibiba wrote...

I also never really liked Anders in DA2... the whole 'Anders/spoiler' personality thing just.. rubbed me the wrong way.

Now, maybe if Wynne were in the game in Anders place.... I could live with that.  Considering her history in the circle, I could easily imagine her following similar plotlines to Anders. He just felt very forced in, gameplay wise.

Wynne would have never been the fit considering what Anders role is in DA2, and that role doesn't change no matter what you decide concerning Anders and the quests he has. Firstly, Wynne's persona in Origins wouldn't kill innocent people.

[Feanor_II]

I've continued playing and I can continue giving my ffedback, first of all I want to say that I don't think that this is a bad game, but absolutely it isn't an outstanding game. I hope that finally Bioware doesn't choose the path of the "easy consuming games", but this is what usually happens when a developer gets bought by a major editor with their main goal is to increase proffits and sales, no matter the cost and the quality of the product:
- I'm finding the game insultingly easy, yah, I know, I'll be recomended to play at nightmare level. I've tried, I've been playing at Hard difficulty I noticed a drastic increase of difficulty. I mean, we have the Nightmare which is very difficulty.... and bellowe that it's too easy.
- Also, I preordered Signature Edition, I'm using Dragon Blood armor almost since the beging, this one hell of an armor which makes the game even easier, at least in DA:O to use this items first I had reach to very high levels so they didn't ruin the gaming experience giving me too much advantage.
- I miss the conversation we could have with our companions during the missions and quests, that allowed us to evolved our relationship further decisions.
- The voice acting is very nice.... but I think that it might be compatible with the conversation system from DAO, the conversation wheel works well on ME but I don't want DA to became ME in fantastic medieval ages, I like both style I would like to continue enjoying both, look I like beer and I like milk but I don't want beer to taste as milk......
- Why did Bioware get rid of the isometric camera?
- Somehow I've got the feeling that the production of this game has been rushed......
- I want to insist on this DA:O had multiple options (inventory, conversartion, decisions, fatigue, more attributes, more abilities) which made of it a very rich and complex game, i don't like this new "philosophy" of simplication.

If this is the path that DA franchise is going to follow I think that i'll step aside........

The case of DA:O and DA2 reminds me of Batman franchise back in the 90s, both Tim Burton's Batman (Batman 1989 and Batman Returns 1992) were a great commercial and critical succes, but Warner thought that they could focus the franchise to a "wider audience" make it more commercial and increase the success, so they sacked Burton arguing that he was quite a bizarre director and put in charge Joel Schumacher, the result was "Batman Forever" (1995) it was more succesfull than the previous movies, but when "Batman & Robin" was released it was a failure and the franchise was forgotten for years (until Chris Nolan resurrected it in 2005). In my opinion there is no doubt that DA2 is much better than Batman Forever..... but I see many similarities......

Modifié par Feanor_II, 12 avril 2011 - 10:57 .

[Fangirl17]

I really like this thread ^^ It makes me happy that Bioware is reading this.

[antenni88]

This must have been sayed before but, if people from bioware are reading this, it would be nice if the romance scenes would be more like in mass effec 1, something that let's you feel that there is some passion between those two.

[Lumikki]

I only comment few stuff here what I did disagree, because other ways post was excelent.

Nefla wrote...

What I disliked:

-The fact that your choices have no effect on anything. You save Grace and the other blood mages? Well too bad because she still decides to hate you and get her "revenge" later. Force Feynriel into to the circle even though you know how cruel they are and that he's pretty much doomed? Well that's ok since he considers you his BFF no matter what you do. I was especially annoyed with Orsino and Meredith at the end.

I disagree and agree. Main quest line you choises has very little meaning and some side quest too. Like you example with Grace and Orsino case. How ever, you say here force Feynriel into to the circle? I got confused, because I never did that. I let him to go to elven community. My point is that sometimes there is actually more choises that we see with our gameplay, because our own choises has limited it. Example choises of companions. Why you say circle is cruel, did you see any cruelty? Exactly.

I know it doesn't seem like it, but I did like the game, I was just very disapointed with it. I loved the first game so much and I made the mistake of stalking the forums waiting for DA2 to come out and hyped myself up.

I never liked DAO any more than DA2. Both games has bad and good sides. That's first mistake what player can do, love something so much that it affects your feelins so strong than you lose objectivity.

I'm also feeling kind of left out since it seems as though DA2 was made to cater to a new, casual audience. I hope it's a one time thing and this isn't a permanent new direction. It's happened before with companies I liked, Nintendo switching their target audience to housewives, square-enix making childish games for preteen girls like ffx-2, kingdom hearts, and all those ff7 spinoffs.

We get enough this personal taste of games BS in this forum allready. Don't judge changes based your own taste of games. I don't my self like all changes, but I hell don't judge company or use insulting attitude agaist some other group of people.

Modifié par Lumikki, 13 avril 2011 - 01:06 .

[Nefla]

Lumikki wrote...
We get enough this personal taste of games BS in this forum allready. Don't judge changes based your own taste of games. I don't my self like all changes, but I hell don't judge company or use insulting attitude agaist some other group of people.

Everything I said was personal taste, not just the last bit. Aside from glitches and bugs everything everyone is saying is based on their personal likes and dislikes. O_o

[Lumikki]

Nefla wrote...

Lumikki wrote...
We get enough this personal taste of games BS in this forum allready. Don't judge changes based your own taste of games. I don't my self like all changes, but I hell don't judge company or use insulting attitude agaist some other group of people.

Everything I said was personal taste, not just the last bit. Aside from glitches and bugs everything everyone is saying is based on their personal likes and dislikes. O_o

Yes, but personal taste can be sayed without insulting/blaming others.

[Nefla]

Lumikki wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Lumikki wrote...
We get enough this personal taste of games BS in this forum allready. Don't judge changes based your own taste of games. I don't my self like all changes, but I hell don't judge company or use insulting attitude agaist some other group of people.

Everything I said was personal taste, not just the last bit. Aside from glitches and bugs everything everyone is saying is based on their personal likes and dislikes. O_o

Yes, but personal taste can be sayed without insulting/blaming others.

I'm guessing you mean the part about SE now making "childish" games? This wasn't meant as an insult. Perhaps I should have taken the time and just said their target audience seemed to be getting progressively younger.

[Lumikki]

Nefla wrote...

I'm guessing you mean the part about SE now making "childish" games? This wasn't meant as an insult. Perhaps I should have taken the time and just said their target audience seemed to be getting progressively younger.

This is getting off topic, my fault sorry, but you started to get the point allready or very close. In my opinion, what I quoted, you should not have sayed it at all or at least the last sentence. There wasn't really need, in you other ways excelent post.

Modifié par Lumikki, 13 avril 2011 - 01:42 .

[Cybermortis]

Nefla wrote...

 Perhaps I should have taken the time and just said their target audience seemed to be getting progressively younger.

This is probably understandable from the sales/marketing point of view. It is a lot easier to market games for younger audiences than older ones. The same trend appears for films - which have over the last 10-20 years started to aim for lower classification ratings both because this increases the potention customer base and because many media outlets simply refuse to advertise Mature/18 rated films.

Of course this totally ignores that kids are probably not buying games out of their own pockets, but probably getting the money from their parents. Or in other words it is the older players who are (in the majority of cases) buying games regardless of the classification. It also ignores that the first and second generation computer/console gamers are the parents in question, and many of them would be delighted to get adult games.

It does seem to me ironic that in the UK Mass Effect was rated 12, Mass Effect 2 was rated 15 while Dragon Age 2 is an 18. I say ironic because ME had the more graphic romances, and ME2 more swearing than DA2. Of the three DA2 seems (the odd swear word aside) to be the more 'childish' of the three. If you suspect that your game is going to get a high rating anyway I don't understand why you wouldn't put more graphic romances into the game. So I really can't understand why DA2 gives us fully-clothed dry humping.

[Zeevico]

Okay. Hindsight time. I've played through Acts One and Two; I'm partway through Act 3.

This is a good game.

But.

There's a lot of buts.

Gameplay wise, every RPG is in some way deficient. 

A tactical camera or isometric camera (whichever) is a big example (not present in NWN). An even more massive NWN example is that you couldn't control party members. Good characterisation and writing (missing from NWN and NWN2, except for the tutorial/prologue, and (to some extent), MotB).

Now, this wasn't the case for DAO. DAO started slow but it was--I mean in terms of features and gameplay--finished. There were bugs and so forth, but it was fun to play and playable.

DA2 sets out certain goals in terms of gameplay but it doesn't meet all of those goals. It tries--and it succeeds more than it fails--but it's missing more than a few things.
The purpose of the fantasy genre--the serious purpose--is to throw fictional, but realistic characters into fantastic situations. Magic in DAO does this: e.g. how do we prevent Mages from controlling everything? (1) templars; (2) strip them of all social rank or status of the Circle; (3) forbid them from ever leaving the circle. Now, this is a rational way to deal with potential mind controllers. Not the best way (who knows what that is), but you can see (and the game explains) how these fictional societies came to deal with the "problem" of magic.

Every story or sidequest in DAO is meant to further this purpose somehow, either by showing how people deal with the fantastic directly, or by showing that the "ordinary" lives of people remain despite the fantastic elements.

Strict logical consistency is impossible, but the more sense the game (and gameplay) makes, the more fun it is to play it (provided other components of gameplay are there)--it adds to the suspension of disbelief, and makes the story more sophisticated. So,  for instance, a game where apostates are captured left and right, featuring a number of apostate mages who make their way about the city for seven years without getting caught--is a weakness in the game's "logic." Now that doesn't mean the game is a failure. Every game (or book) has such weaknesses--but too many and it becomes imposssible to overlook. That's what happened here (recycled levels+you're hardly ever treated as an apostate on the run+blood magic practised openly by you+unrealistic wave combat). This--in my view--is the overarching weakness of this game.

In part, I think that's because this game suffered from a lack of focus. The main storyline is too short. There are some sidequests, but they were poorly scripted and created; hence the game as a whole suffered. Better to make a shorter, tighter game with fewer sidequests than a longer game with bad sidequests. In ME2, sidequests WERE the game. Recruiting a team (however weak a ploy that might seem) was fun. A daring premise, and it tied the game together. Were there many sidequests? No. But those that existed were there to illustrate something about the game world, and they did that well.

That aside--conversations outside the home: I can't stress how much the lack of these conversations is annoying. I can't stress how annoying this mechanism is. "We can only talk about these things at home": WTF? Many serious conversations occur outside of a home. DAO did this well. Go back to it. Please.

Modifié par Zeevico, 13 avril 2011 - 06:09 .

[silent bumblebee]

This will probably make my impression of the game seem a lot more negative than it really is. So let me just say I don’t hate this game. I’ll even say I enjoyed a great deal of it. However, for it being the sequel to DAO, I was pretty disappointed.

THE WORLD:
I felt no sense of exploration and adventure. And it wasn’t because the game was focused on a single city. A single city can still be a huge enthralling place with lots of secrets, nooks, and surprises to explore. But the same cave that’s used 30 times just can’t achieve that effect.

But even on top of that, the non-generic locations are reused far too many times. When I’m sent to the same main area on the map repeatedly to kill bandits/undead/tal’vashoth/mabari/demons/templars/mages, the distinctiveness of that area is ruined. Places like the Korcari Wilds, Lothering, or Ostagar, all seem much more unique and defined even though you only see those areas briefly. An area like the Wounded Coast just seems to be insignificant because it’s cluttered with unimportant quests.

THE QUESTS:
I thought these were way too short. For me, the quest length kind of killed the focus of the main story. All the main quests seemed so short and so great in number that no individual one actually felt that important. Additionally, I think that made no individual quest feel (and I use this world rarely) epic. Everything felt unfocused and disconnected to me. Maybe something in the storytelling went over my head in this regard, but take my experience for what’s its worth I suppose.

The sidequests were disappointing. At first I thought they were pretty cool because I mistook a lot of the main and secondary quests for sidequests, but then I looked into it more and found out there were very few I liked. There’s not really much I can say about this other than returning items to people I inexplicably know the location of isn’t that fun.

THE COMPANIONS:
I can’t really say I liked or disliked the companions. I guess I liked what was there, but overall, they just seemed very distant and I never felt like I interacted with them that much. I was left feeling very disconnected. For me, the connection I felt to my all my companions was one of the highlights of DAO, so I was really disappointed with this in DA2.

The companion conversations in DA2 felt ridiculously short and business-like. For me, it seemed like I never got to know any of these people. I guess you might extrapolate that Hawke became closer to all these people over the time skips, but the conversations never seem to reflect even that. They’re always at the same level of intimacy. When I say that I mean like the level of intimacy at which I talk to my manager at work, not the level at which I talk to my very close friends I met way back in high school. There are never any casual one on one chats that progressively become more cozy and deep as the story moves on like the characters in DAO had.

The same goes for the romances. Really, Hawke? After 3 years you still haven’t gotten past just making flirty comments with this person? Then very abruptly Hawke is hit with the big romance scene. For this, I guess I’m trying to say there was inadequate build up. I think Alistair’s romance is a really great example of satisfying build up along with eventfulness after a sex scene.

I hate to say it, but at the end of the story, the change in character presentation from DAO made me feel like I didn’t really care about any of the companions. That was the absolute opposite of what I felt at the end of DAO.

COMBAT MECHANICS:
Every fight being a wave fight got to be really boring. It made every fight feel the exact same and was often nonsensical for particular types of enemies, like random street thugs, to endlessly throw themselves at a well-armed, and clearly capable, party of heroes.

Not only did the wave fights become boring, but the enemies themselves eventually became boring. In DAO, I had to manage being hit with crushing prison, shield bash, curse of mortality, overwhelm, etc etc. In DA2, it seemed like all enemies could do is just deal out damage. Yeah, you might be fighting a mage, but all they’ll do is try to kill you with the exploding ball of doom. Maybe they’ll use crushing prison, but in DA2 that doesn’t immobilize you and ends up just being a purely damage dealing spell. Or you can be fighting a rouge in DAO, maybe they’ll use mark of death or dirty fighting. In DA2, they just disappear then reappear to backstab which… just deals more damage. I guess my main point with this is to give these poor guys some abilities that do more than knock off HP, otherwise I feel like I’m just wading through trash mobs.

Basically, less wave fights with fewer and tougher opponents. (As long as tougher doesn’t just mean more HP I have to hack through) A 4 on 4 fight with a Qunari honor guard is exciting, a repetitive 4 on 50 fight against a bunch of non-threatening faceless thugs is only fun every once in a while. Maybe there should even be less combat overall.

COMBAT AESTHETICS:
No finishing moves makes me sad

I really liked how mages and archers would go into melee when engaged at close range though

Enemies appearing out of thin air just looked bad.

Enemies exploding was at least equally as bad. I think it‘s acceptable enough as the result of some magical attacks, but not for a backstab.

For the combat animations, I’m kind of split. On one hand, I think everything flows nicely and all the animations look like they transition into each other quite well. In this regard, it’s far better than DAO. And I’ll even say I think DA2 combat is much more entertaining to watch, but it lacks a certain gritty and mature presentation that I think DAO had. Concisely said, I felt it looked over the top.

HAWKE:
Before the release, Hawke was said to be a person who had a huge impact on the world. But to be honest, I felt like the stuff my warden decided had a far bigger impact than anything Hawke did. I don’t know if I can precisely say why, but I believe it’s because I felt as if I couldn’t change anything in this game. Just about everything seems to have the same outcome. This is something you don’t even need to play the game through multiple times to realize, it’s quite apparent your first time through.

I don’t mind playing as a human, but I would absolutely love to be able to select a well-defined origin or at least my race again for DA3

I could go either why with the voiced/silent PC. However, if it meant being able to have more recorded lines for companions and whatnot, I would prefer a silent PC

Anyway, I just want to restate I didn’t think was a bad game, however, I can’t help but say I was significantly disappointed. And if anyone from Bioware read through my post I just want to say thank you for reading mine and everyone else’s thoughts on this topic

[Dracotamer]

Bioware, please also see the following and it's accompanying poll...

Dear Bioware: What you did right and what you did wrong with DA2...

http://social.biowar...62832/6#7061033

[Zeevico]

HAWKE:
Before the release, Hawke was said to be a person who had a huge impact on the world. But to be honest, I felt like the stuff my warden decided had a far bigger impact than anything Hawke did. I don’t know if I can precisely say why, but I believe it’s because I felt as if I couldn’t change anything in this game. Just about everything seems to have the same outcome. This is something you don’t even need to play the game through multiple times to realize, it’s quite apparent your first time through.

I don’t mind playing as a human, but I would absolutely love to be able to select a well-defined origin or at least my race again for DA3

I could go either why with the voiced/silent PC. However, if it meant being able to have more recorded lines for companions and whatnot, I would prefer a silent PC

Anyway, I just want to restate I didn’t think was a bad game, however, I can’t help but say I was significantly disappointed. And if anyone from Bioware read through my post I just want to say thank you for reading mine and everyone else’s thoughts on this topic

Exactly. In this game the templars and the mages get it on no matter what you do--you pick a side, but that's it. The qunari leave no matter what you do. You don't feel the impact of these choices. It's a cop out to say--well they'll be in there next game.

[Cybermortis]

I'm thinking that the reason why DA2 comes off as being far more limited in choice and far less 'epic' than DA:O has to do with the way Hawke and the Warden are acting/reacting to the world.

In DA:O the Warden is being pro-active, in that they have a clear and defined task to perform (stop the blight and kill the Archdemon) after Ostogar. While you still have to do the same main quests, the feeling is that the Warden has chosen to do these quests. In essence the Warden is not standing around waiting for something to happen, but going out to make sure something does happen.

In DA2 however Hawke is forever being reactive. If a problem arises Hawke...doesn't do anything to try and sort that problem out until it turns up on their doorstep. The time jumps only act to reinforce this, since the city goes to hell and Hawke appears to have spent years sitting in their living room twiddling his/her thumbs. What also doesn't help in this regard is forcing Hawke to take quests when their is no logical reason for them to do so other than the need to finish quest A to get to quest B.

There is a reason why films and RPG's usually give the protagonist a clear opponent or two - It gives them something to focus on, and explain why they are doing the things they are doing. DA2 doesn't do this, so in turn Hawke lacks the focus needed to explain why they are willing to perform tasks.

For example there is no particular reason for Hawke to go into the Deep Roads in Act 1 since, as Hawke will him/herself note to Varric if they had the money to go they wouldn't need to do so. However if Hawke had an opponent - say an old rival family who didn't want the Hawkes in the city - then going into the deep roads to get enough money to be able to challenge that family makes more sense.

[UpiH]

Bah, my mage acts like some overheated Duracell bunny, the moves apparently copied from some cheap LoTR game back from the 90's. Tiresome dance.

Also, right after the mage learnt the fire/ice chain, he got in his head, he must act like some Wilhelm Furtwängler, yelling and conducting every friggin spell. The animations nail him in one place for a l o o n g time, so the ogres can flatten him pretty easily. Such nice moves: the Champion to be sent flying by some disgruntled Easter Bunny or Enraged Couching Flea. Casting spells like Spirit Bolt or Winter's Grasp takes as long as Firestorm and in the meantime while gesturing, squishing and armflailing there, the hero certainly gets overrun by those tiresome hordes of critters. Not funny after 1000th time.

Yet another interesting discovery: the Bioware guys have yet to learn that 5000 % of zero is still zero. Also: Random is random.

Modifié par UpiH, 13 avril 2011 - 02:19 .

[BBK4114]

[Giant quote tree trimmed - please do not nest that many quotes inside each other]

I feel you plucked the thoughts right out of my head Nefla!  Thank you for writing this so I don't have to!! 

Bioware - have you gotten the picture yet?

Modifié par JohnEpler, 13 avril 2011 - 05:11 .

[Rhobert]

Most of my criticisms are similar to others here, so no rehashing (and no giant pyramid quoting).

But here's a constructive criticism that I don't think would have been too hard or costly to implement that would have helped me enjoy this more:

That is that the quest log really needs to be fleshed out with more text.

Many times, while wandering around, I would see the familiar yellow triangle quest marker. I'd check the quest log, and it would say something very simple, like "Go talk to character X at location Y". That's it. No reminder of who exactly was X again? and why was I supposed to meet him? What was the brief back-story?

It's difficult, particularly in Act I, where you have so many quests and it's easy to get side-tracked. And if I haven't played the game for a few days, I'm not going to always remember those details.

Granted, sometimes through the dialogue, you can start to remember, but it breaks the role-playing aspect. Unfortunately there's no dialogue wheel option for what my character is really thinking:

"Um, excuse me, Sir. I don't remember who you are, or why I was supposed to talk to you, but you do have a big yellow triangle over your head, so let's talk. Oh, and unfortunately for you, that will probably mean that after our brief dialogue, I'll be forced to kill you and the dozen or so masked friends of yours that I don't see, but am quite sure are currently hanging out on the rooftops."

Modifié par Rhobert, 13 avril 2011 - 03:57 .

[KennethAFTopp]

Problem was also the structure of the whole thing, Main Quests felt like side quests and unimportant and suddenly you had fifty different quests to do at the same time where in the end all their stories kinda muddled together.

[John Epler]

Cut out the pyramid quoting, guys.

[MorrigansLove]

JohnEpler wrote...

Cut out the pyramid quoting, guys.

Did you read Nefla's post? Do you now know how to improve on Dragon Age?!

[Furtled]

Cybermortis wrote...
It does seem to me ironic that in the UK Mass Effect was rated 12, Mass Effect 2 was rated 15 while Dragon Age 2 is an 18. I say ironic because ME had the more graphic romances, and ME2 more swearing than DA2. Of the three DA2 seems (the odd swear word aside) to be the more 'childish' of the three.

I'm guessing the 18 rating is more down to the violence (super body blood explodo power go!) than anything else. British censors are usually more concerned with violence/sexual violence than nudity/sex/language, although there's a couple of specific swear words that if used once (or a few used more than a set amount of times) will trigger a rise in the rating. As a caveat though - I'm basing this on my experiences with the BBFC, not sure if the gaming lot run along the same lines.

Modifié par Furtled, 13 avril 2011 - 06:41 .

[Furtled]

Dialogue
Now that I think about it the quest markers were a bit inconsistant (and visually intrusive for me) - after the very first detective like quest in Act 1 there's no marker to tell you to go back and give the news to the two people concerned once you've told the core person, and with the siblings there is additional dialogue but no quest marker to say they have new dialogue available - despite every other conversation in game being framed as a quest.

This leads to confusion that just adds to the frustration of not being able to talk to companions more freely later in the game; especially when the loading screen randomly pops up with a little hint to pop in and talk to them - yet doing so doesn't achieve anything outside of specific quests.

[Kaorunandrak]

To be honest I loved the combat in this game it was a huge improvement over the original which slowed the game down a bit to much. The storyline and actual interactions you had in this where also for the most part well done, save for a handful of quests here or there (though I am well aware of why they didn't recieve as much love and attention as the other quests)

Now as far as"problems" or "concerns" go they are fairly standard.

I think the over all quality of the game was extremly high however the reused maps in every encounter is a tough pill to swallow I can see it in an MMO but it was pretty dissapointing to see it used so rampantly in this game. It broke immersion for sure but the big thing was the fact it removed any and all sense of discovery or adventure in the quest lines due to playing on that map 5 times before hand.

The exploding death blows, while extremly gratifiying and comical after a bad day at work was a touch much. The original death blows from DA:O were the same save for the touch much part, They actually where fairly realistic and and gratifying to watch.

The item sets aren't anything I am to worried about since I play it on PC and use mods anyways. However I have always felt since the first game that the weapons needed to be a bit more diversified some traditional sword designs would be a bit better or more swords of the the grey warden trailer sword. The weapons in the last two games seems to have been designed with extreme ultra curves and points in mind to break it away from other fantasy games.

To me the biggest thing is the exclusion of several specializations from the first game and the expansion pack. What can I say I miss my berserker-templar-spirit warrior lol.

I get what you guys are trying to do with the gae and the genre in general and to be honest I think its the right thing to do. The simple fact is that RPG's just like any other genre need to evolve the next generation of gamers are not going to be as apt to play games where they have to "roll a dice" for every interaction they make or conversation they have.

The old rpg model works for the previous generations since that is what they grew up with but I think every one needs to keep what I just said. Ofcourse some need to keep the fact bioware is not their own private game maker in mind, as well as the fact that neither they,these nor any forums represent the majority of game players in any way shape or form. "WE" are the "vocal minority".

Great job I love the franchise as a whole, maybe its because I am a student in game design and understand the pit falls of game production a bit better than some but the games were still great to me. I hope you guys are somehow able to address some of these concerns in this forum prior to a third installment for the people here. But no matter what this thread should showcase your willingness to at least pretend to listen for the skeptics out there personally I have litte doubt you guys are truely taking the comon factors of dissent from the fan base to heart.