Aller au contenu

Photo

Constructive Criticism


2797 réponses à ce sujet

#2226
Lindum

Lindum
  • Members
  • 138 messages
First of all, I would like to say, that I enjoyed playing Dragon Age 2. However, I loved playing the awesome and superior Dragon Age Origins. 

Dragon Age 2 in my opinion is a good game, it is not the awesome game it should of been. This may have something to do with the game being being rushed and the bugs which hinder Dragon Age 2. 

Pros:

I like my pc being fully voiced, as it added more immersion.

Graphics were much improved to those in Origins 

The dialouge wheel made dialouge choices easier 

Voice acting was excellent as always.

In places the story was quite emotional.

Cons:

The bugs, especially the import bugs.

Plots holes in the story.

Exploding enemies were too much. The kill blows in Origins were far better.

The streamlining of the inventory system went too far.

Not being able to change companion's armour was a dissappoinment. For example I have all these different types of armour that my rouge and companion's can't use.

A clear overuse of recycled environments.

Enemies spawning out of thin air

No auto attack on the Xbox 360. This is definitely not awesome.

The Elf design is horrid.

Lack of choice in the race you can play.

Thus, I believe that Bioware needs to find a balance between Dragon Age and Dragon Age 2 when they come to make (if they make) Dragon Age 3.

Please do not rush the development of Dragon Age 3

Modifié par Lindum , 20 mai 2011 - 06:51 .


#2227
Foolsfolly

Foolsfolly
  • Members
  • 4 770 messages
I think I need to stress the importance of reactivity in RPGs. The world, NPCs, and companions all need to react in some ways to the PC's actions. It doesn't mean that good choices get rewarded and bad choices get punished.

There just has to be consequences for those actions.

I feel DA2 forgot this concept and it's one that extremely important to RPGs. If a static storyline is BioWare's interest, by all means make one. I'm sure if they wanted to do a fixed story game it would be amazing!

But as long as the game's an RPG, choices need to be tracked by the game and there need to be consequences for those actions.

Hopefully not just "Good Choice" = Reward and "Bad Choice" = Punishment.

It would be extremely great if a few choices had unforeseen consequences, like putting the "good guy" Harrowmont on the Throne and seeing him speed up the slow death of the dwarves whereas "bad guy" Bhelen leads the dwarves into an age of civil rights for the casteless and opening up to the surface...at the cost of tyranny.

Reactivity in all things.

#2228
Kissing the pink

Kissing the pink
  • Members
  • 13 messages
Its a pile of ****e.

#2229
JayCatt

JayCatt
  • Members
  • 2 messages
God knows I tried but I physically could not bring myself to finish my second playthrough, I didn't even get to the end of chapter 2 (the chapter that I actually like).


very dissapointed bioware.

Modifié par JayCatt, 11 mai 2011 - 05:26 .


#2230
Guest_f_b_*

Guest_f_b_*
  • Guests
Sorry, been a while since I logged on.

Realmzmaster wrote...

1: Longer development time is not just Bioware's call. Bioware is a division of EA therefore it answers to and receives orders from higher ups. One of the reasons was long development time that sapped resources (ie money) that Bioware did not have and could no longer raise through traditional means. Bioware needed a cash infusion and EA provide it by acquiring Bioware.

2: In most CRPGS mages do not have armor, nor weild traditional weapons outside of staves and daggers. The Dragon Age IP allowed for the acrane warrior specification. If you want that spec back I can agree with that. 

I want the archery ability to be available for the warrior class.

3: I like the new Friendship/Rivalry system. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

4: Sort out the graphics? What do you mean? I agree with the exploding body part.

5: Different people like different characters in DA 2 and not every one like the characters in DAO. I happen to like Aveline, Fenris and Varric.

6: The talking aspect would have to fit the story and setting. The talking in DA works because the companions and Hawke are not together 24/7. The camp conversations worked in DAO because they were together 24/7.

Combat I was happy with. Some of the enemies dropping out of sky in plate armor was over the top. Certain creatures not all appearing from the ground was wrong.


To Realmzmaster, and anyone else who disagreed: an amendment.
Well thought-out reply.
1: True. Yes, perhaps the publisher was making demands of BioWare that it had to and could not meet. But, if possible, perhaps longer development time will make DA3 better than 2 and Origins put together.

2: I'm relatively new to fantasy RPGs (and am loving them so far). I only found Origins this year and was blown away by it. Played DA2 straight after it, and, well... not so blown away. I'm just going on what know about Dragon Age, and one of the things I loved was that  they let mages be so versatile. I do miss Arcane Warrior... *Has nostalgic daydream. Wanders off to play Origins for a while.* (Agree about archery, that was useful.)

3: I felt F/R put you in a box. It didn't allow you to be neutral, and slid so fast that it didn't feel like you gradually built up relationships. In Act II, I'd made almost all of my friends/rivals. It felt so... rushed (and those big off-screen time gaps where Hawke had presumably got to know them all without me around didn't help). *Puts palms up in surrender* However, not picking fights, so I'll shake your hand and agree to disagree there.

4: Should have been clearer there, sorry. I mean, they improved the graphics in DA2. So, in DA3, keep improved graphics without so many shortcuts. However, if that can't be done and worse graphics = better overall game, downgrade the graphics.

5: Totally. That was my personal opinion and, I agree, some didn't like the characters in DAO. I'd ask BioWare to do some more groundwork on characters. After all, I know from experience they've got some awesome game writers.

6: You think it didn't fit? I actually thought having a cityscape setting would make things more talky. I remember reading an article where a guy who hated DAO wrote, "It was just watching a dude talk for 20 minutes". I thought, "Not quite true, but watching dudes talk is part of the appeal." I'm saying, if possible, put them back together 24/7. I liked the campfire. Or, at least, let DA3's main character talk to his/her companions while travelling. I liked the silliness of talking about random things like shoes or lampposts while stuck in the Deep Roads/elven ruins.  It gave you the option to lighten the mood a bit, and declarations of love made a bit more sense if you'd just had a nearly-fatal encounter with some monsters and were relieved to have your life (people tend to let things slip a bit more then). The "going to home bases" thing felt too rigorously structured. It meant I talked to characters less and so cared about them less. And ditch the "you only get approval from choices" thing of DA2. I mean, people are going to disagree with stuff you do, but in DAO I never had to use the whole gifts and bribery thing - I just talked to them. You should get approval or F/R points from asking them about stuff and getting to know them as well as from who you support, otherwise it feels like there's no real incentive to chat to them.

I agree with other posters on things like armour customisation: miss that.

Realmzmaster: Not trying to rake up mud. If anything, I'm saying that on a lot of points you're right. Perhaps I was a little hasty. However, I do stand by some of my criticisms.

Also, if it just felt like an unreasonable rant to the rest of you posters, I'm sorry. Hope this clarifies.

'Til the next time - live long and prosper, y'all.

Modifié par f_b, 11 mai 2011 - 07:11 .


#2231
Alexander1136

Alexander1136
  • Members
  • 431 messages
First off let me say that I'm aware that i may be a minority in my opinion.  I liked Dragon Age Origins just fine. The one upgrade that this game added was the dash move to get to the target instead of shuffling. That being said, that kind of move should only be for rouges. Warriors can dash too but it shouldn't be as quick. I did not enjoy the Voiced PC i thought it took away from the role playing aspect. i also didn't enjoy the conversation wheel or the way they made the stat system. Basically just tweak the combat a bit on origins and you should have a solid game. I am aware that the warden is over or whatever but I really enjoyed playing as The Grey Warden. i don't mind playing as other people with my Warden being mention or if the made a cameo of sort. that is all.

Modifié par Alexander1136, 11 mai 2011 - 06:41 .


#2232
Guest_f_b_*

Guest_f_b_*
  • Guests

Modifié par f_b, 11 mai 2011 - 06:57 .


#2233
Guest_f_b_*

Guest_f_b_*
  • Guests
Oh c**p,double post! :-O My computer crashed and I thought it hadn't been uploaded. Ignore my most recent post, first one's better anyway. Bye!

#2234
Kissing the pink

Kissing the pink
  • Members
  • 13 messages
http://kaonazhie.wor...on-age-2-sucks/ Just go to this and read, this shows how many think like me.

#2235
roundcrow

roundcrow
  • Members
  • 293 messages

HawXV2 wrote...

My .02 - 

Re-used maps

This got very frustrating because it didn't give me the sense of place or exploration that Origins had, even if some of the bits and pieces were used multiple times.  It seems like a time/$ thing, though.

Enemy encounters

The whole dropping out of the sky made me lol the first time I saw it.  Broke the immersion.  Enemies should feel more real than this.

Rogue-type enemies

I don't mind them, I just target them first.

Linearernessed...uh...Linearreerrr...It feels too one-track minded

Yeah, I felt passive in this sense, like I was going down a big slide.  I don't like feeling passive in games.  I read somewhere that the game felt more like a to-do list than an RPG.  It didn't give me a sense of propulsion. 

Enemy deaths

I think these are cool, so no complaints.  I did have a glitch where I walked out of an area and an enemy levitated off the ground and exploded.

Junk

Feels like there was more to it originally.  I really miss the item descriptions.  

Auto-Attack

Would have been nice, but I don't miss it much.

Companions

I wish I'd had the opportunity to interact with companions when I wanted to, not just when they wanted to talk to me.  I felt like I was at their beck and call rather than an active participant in the relationship.

Armor

I felt like what was there was fine.

Friendly Fire toggle

I liked the gradations of FF in Origins.  I was disappointed they weren't included.

Darkspawn

I agree that I wondered the same - where are the genlocks and shrieks? 

Interface

I don't have high standards for this.  It's smooth enough for me. I've just bought Origins on PC though and am amazed with what I missed on console.

Would like to be seen:

Weather

And I want a pony too.

Change log:
3/15/11: Added Exploding enemies
3/15/11: Added Inventory Junk
3/15/11: Added Auto-Attack 
3/15/11: Added Dialogue (for companions)
3/15/11: Added Armor color
3/15/11: Added FF toggle for Hard
3/15/11: Added Arcane Warrior
3/15/11: Added Darkspawn Designs
3/15/11: Removed Arcane Warrior. It was decided that not having it made a lot of sense lore wise, and just shows BioWare's intelligence in lore design.
3/16/11: Added 2 stat requirements
3/16/11: Added Interface design
3/16/11: Added CPU interactions
3/16/11: Added Weather
3/16/11: New section! What would like to be seen.
( I'm going to find a more effecient way for this log soon)





#2236
Teddie Sage

Teddie Sage
  • Members
  • 6 754 messages
There's one thing I don't like about Origins and Dragon Age 2 and it's the fact that once you play through them once, you don't feel like replaying them without rushing your choices, lines, stuff like that only to see what the other characters are. I also don't like the absence of multiple endings. The epilogues in Origins were so-so, but it doesn't give me any replay value. If I play a rogue warden, for exemple, I don't need to play the game again since I can always switch to warriors or mages. They all have the same abilities, the same tactics... It saddens me because I don't see the point of replaying these games anymore. :\\

#2237
TOOMANYTOONS

TOOMANYTOONS
  • Members
  • 1 messages
I'm disappointed. compared to origins. Once was enough. Think I'll delete, hoping ME3 isn't the same.

#2238
Kloreep

Kloreep
  • Members
  • 2 316 messages
Okay, I know, long post... take it as a sign I like the game, to spend this long writing about it? :)


Bugs/release schedule: Please, hold on to a game longer if it needs it.
1.00/1.01 was in pretty bad shape. It only takes one bug to ruin a game, as long as it's bad enough, and 1.00/1.01 had several that I think would qualify, from the Isabella slo-mo, to importing problems and some quests not firing correctly. The console folks not getting auto-attack was pretty bad for them too. It was disappointing to see some of these bugs after getting excited about the ramp up to release and buying it full price. I actually put it away until 1.02 after reading about some of the problems. Maybe some of these truly didn't come up in QA, but it felt like the game needed another month of polish.
ME2's bugs were light enough that I felt rewarded for buying on release and satisfying my desire to play on day one, and that's part of what got me to do the same with DA2. But with DA2 I ended up feeling it was a mistake.


Dungeons: Yeah, map re-use was just too high. It's fine when it's fictionally the same location. But there's a disconnect when I'm supposed to think "this is a cave/mansion/sewer that is fictionally new" and yet it is clearly the same level design I've seen many times before. I won't harp any longer on a common subject.


Art Style: In general, I liked the new art direction.

Please consider toning down the geysers of blood. It doesn't really add anything, and when blood is so constantly turned up to maximum intensity, it makes all the combat moves blend together. When I first tried Merrill's Blood of the First power, my reaction was, "that's it?" She was ripping the blood straight out of people, that should have been dramatic. But the results looked very similar to other powers, because practically everything but a standard attack produces a cloud of red.


Combat: Better. DAO had too many tweaky bits for my taste, e.g. backstabbing angles. I would agree with people who say combat seems less complex in DA2, and I say that's a good thing. I do want to have to think through strategy, and leveling and tactics certainly presented some interesting chocies. I prefer not to have to tweak second-to-second, however, and I was able to rely on the tactics more often than in tweaky ol' DAO.

I join the complaints about enemies popping up/dropping in from everywhere, emphasis on the "everywhere." When they come from all around the perimeter, strategic formations aren't that meaningful, especially considering the faster speed of combat. Managing threat/enemy attention to make the enemy come to your tanks becomes the only way to manage combat, as it's just not possible to put the melee fighters "in front" - what front? - and have them go to the enemy.
Perhaps I would have cared more about placement on Hard/Nightmare with friendly fire on. But if that's the case, I'd imagine battles on those difficulties are about running around in circles a lot, trying to sift friends and foes back apart.
I could see the case for using the circum-perimeter drop-ins in special occasions, for "oh &@*! we're surrounded!" moments. In DA2, though, being surrounded isn't special, it's just the norm. I'm okay with waves (though I'm not against toning them down), but please be a bit more careful about limiting and perhaps even signposting spawn points.


Inventory and Items: Much better than DAO, thank you!
Junking and auto-selling Junk is great.
It felt like there were fewer items overall (though maybe that's just because of the junk system) and that was good.
I know there are people who weren't happy with the inventory changes, but if you were to design your next game only for me, I would advise you not to listen to them.


Fetch quests: The pick-up-and-drop-off sidequests are bad. I didn't even understand what they were the first few times until I started looking in the journal. (Can't say I'm in the habit of going to the journal as soon as I pick up a quest - usually I expect to understand them from dialogue.) These quests cluttered up the world map and made it difficult to find the real quests. The only way to distinguish one type from another on the map was to commit the quest names to memory, ESC out of the travel map, hit J to open the journal, and then open each Quests sub-heading to look for those quest names.

In the end I did almost all of these quests that I found, because it was less annoying to just get them out of the way than to keep bumping in to them on the world map. So, yes, my OCD means that my metrics will have shown I did most of them, but that does not mean I liked them. Please bury these. Preferably someplace no one can find them again.


Conversations: I liked the tone system. For my money it's Bioware's best take yet on an alignment system. Although I did have a consistently dominant tone (witty/purple), I was always thinking my options through and sometimes selecting the other two tones. I never fell to the danger of auto-piloting along one tone. I can't say if implementing the tones to the depth they were in DA2 is worth the resources required, but I didn't feel they were hurting anything else by their presence, which for me is a first for Bioware alignment systems.

The use of icons for extra context was a good call given the abbreviated text for dialogue choices, and much more informative than ME's text-alone. I hope the ME team stole that one. :)

Like Mass Effect, the abbreviated text is great when it works, but is never going to be 100%. My problems with dialogue choices were usually related to the "Decision" branching icon (the one with multiple arrows).
Firstly, it didn't seem consistently applied. I thought it was supposed to mean "there is a story branch right here, watch your step." But it seemed to me it was also used to punt on assigning other icons to complex but not story-altering choices. Further, there were quite a few true decision points that didn't get this icon.
Regardless, even where it did indicate an important choice, it supercedes meaningful information. Wherever the branching icon is used, it meant I didn't get to see a more informative icon, and had to rely solely on the text - often for some of the most important dialogues in the game.
In the future, perhaps find the resources to have not just tone-based icons, but plot-based icons for decision points? For instance, if there had been "Pro-Mage" and "Pro-Templar" icons to clarify the decisions in the scene at the beginning of Act 3, that might have saved me a goof where I accidentally had my Hawke support Meredith on one point. ("Let the people decide" sounded anti-Meredith in my head, then Hawke went in the opposite direction.)


Companions:
One improvement I noticed was their interaction with each other. Checking in on companions in their bases and finding them already talking with one another was great. And it felt like they more often took part in conversations, either automatically, or by special dialogue options. Both things made them seem like a part of the world, and fit in with the idea that Hawke is just their friend, not their commander. (Since writing this I came across a post stating this was indeed how companion dialogue was "budgeted." Dialogue well spent IMO.)

I feel there may be a better way to do the pacing and notification of companion dialogues. In DAO I didn't feel like I had to exhaust conversations with party members, because there was never an indication they had more to say until you re-opened dialogue, and there would always be another camp. In DA2, I did appreciate having journal entries pop up to remind me to talk to them - however, both the markers and the necessity to travel to their base to talk often compelled to keep clicking on the companion until the marker over their head went away. This resulted in some conversations taking place back-to-back in my playthrough, sometimes to weird effect.

The Friendship/Rivalry alternate Approval paths are also an improvement, but also someplace that I feel something better might be done. The system worked for the most part. many of the companions I spent time with went to one extreme (all Friendship, as it turned out). Whereas Fenris, who I neglected, stayed in the middle, never brought up sidequests, and did not stick by me in the end. All that seemed appropriate.
Isabella was the one who didn't work for me. I had her in my party for some of the first act and the majority of the second act. My Hawke spent a lot of time with her and I began to imagine they had a rapport developing. Mathematically, however, the mix of decisions my Hawke made in conversation with and in front of Isabella kept her swinging between Friendship and Rivalry, never ending up with a great deal of either, and therefore not even triggering her sidequest. As a result, she didn't return at the end of Act 2, even though my Hawke pursued options to befriend her. When I found out it was possible for Isabella to return out of loyalty to Hawke, even on a Rivalry path, it just felt odd that she hadn't in my game. That she might have, had my Hawke been at even greater loggerheads with her rather than gaining the occasional Friendship points alongside their disagreements, just doesn't make much sense to me.
I like where the Approval system is going with the Rivalry option, so that it's no longer necessarily about playing to them, but it's still not quite right. There remains the possibility of an NPC being an important part of the team, someone the player character spends a lot of time with, yet the relationship is regarded as distant by the game because the player is friendly to them only some of the time. Whereas the tone system does a good job of providing an extra gameplay mechanic without it leading to extremes and auto-pilot play, the Approval system is still going the other way, encouraging consistency and punishing attempts at up-and-down relationships with the party members. I'm not sure what should be done instead, but perhaps something more like the tone system, with separate "stacks" that do not actually substract from each other, would be better.


Story:
I have my issues with it, but on the whole, I was impressed. You folks did some things I wasn't expecting. DA2 has some big flaws, but it also has some big successes. If there are things from this post I hope make it on to post-mortem memos, it is these: Thank you for surprising me. Thank you for taking some risks with the story. Thank you for not having the player save the world. Please keep surprising me.

Complaints
I have one big pet peeve: the idol in general, and the idol-sword specifically. For most of the game, Meredith seemed like a thoroughly human villain. She could have stayed that way, but instead it felt like she was suddenly freed of at least some responsibility.
I suppose this is an odd thing to complain about in a story full of possessions. The best I can distinguish the idol is that it is presented - to the degree that it is explained at all - as something that just befalls people. Whereas in the cases of other spirits/demons that people make deals with, the human is generally shown to have some idea of what they're getting in to, even if they may still misjudge the consequences.
I have to wonder if a need to kill Meredith in all versions of the ending is why the idol came along? It just seems unnecessary.

Mage recognition needs work.
Bioware games have always had something of a curtain between combat and everything else. In games like Jade Empire or Mass Effect, where there is little plot-related difference between fighting styles, that's not really a problem. In games like KOTOR or the DAs, though, it can create weird situations. In DA2, one of the bigger ones was Cullen being apparently unphased by Merrill using blood magic. I'm not sure if that particular example is fixable without thoroughly overhauling the combat to be more integrated into the plot. Still, this issue also seemed to receive uneven writing. For instance, my Hawke, given the option, was supportive of Merrill's use of blood magic (and of course, a Mage Hawke can use it themselves). My Hawke was willing to hear demons out when given the option, even if the deals usually weren't tempting enough. Yet at other times, Hawke automatically condemns both practices. If players are going to be given leeway to have our character hold an open-minded view of either practice, I'd like it to be consistent. Otherwise, better to just take those decisions away entirely and always force the player character to condemn them, IMO.

Adoration
Yes, the story's largely on rails, but so was DAO. At least this time it more often felt like my character had no choice, rather than me having no choice in a situation where my character really should. In general, DA2's story seems to try to integrate rather than obscure its rails. I think it worked well.

Loved the villains. Characters like the Ari'shok and Orsino were miles better than an "it's just evil" Archdemon and a faceless horde of Darkspawn. (Would have included Meredith in that list, but see my rant above...)

The game's time-lapses improved a lot of quests. Many quests had memorable moments (the kidnapped Elven girl grows up, the killer goes after Leandra, Alain tries to do right) that were memorable because they only came after some time, both in-game and in playtime. Having repercussions or follow-ups turn up after I've put a quest out of mind is rewarding and helps keep the world immersive. Please, more of those kinds of delayed pay-offs and continuing quests.

Complaints aside, the story and world are what I really liked about DA2. I got a kind of story I'm not used to getting from Bioware, and my biggest hope for the next game is that I'm surprised again.

#2239
greylancer

greylancer
  • Members
  • 15 messages
i have a simple gripe, probably ireelevant in the greater scheme of things but i dont see any reason why mages cant carry their staffs, one thing i really like in DA is that the swords and armour actually look like swords and armour unlike that 'other game' but like that 'other game' it looks so stupid when a dagger the size of a large longsword is floating in mid air behind your char, vigilance is really nice looking but does it need to be the size of a flipping claymore? im sure it would be easy to scabbard weapons ooc if they were scaled properly, surely not every game has to follow the bleach/FF path of ridiculously huge weapons

#2240
Spell Singer

Spell Singer
  • Members
  • 247 messages
I am back playing Awakening, and I have to say that I am enjoying the combat in DA:O-A considerably more than in DA2. The DA2 combat more and more gives me a bad Anime/Final Fantasy taste. Overly large weapons (in both games admittedly), people bounding around the battle field like demented jack rabbits on drugs, huge numbers, etc. Unlike the change from ME to ME2 which was more or less a neutral change from "run and gun" to "hide and snipe" (with the later being easier for an old fart like me) the change from DA to DA2 is just un-fun and negative in every respect. There is nothing outside of the skill trees as a concept that is more fun then in DA.

The other thing is why do you have a Codex entry that says it is impossible to magically teleport then have every mage (except for yours) magically teleport around the battlefield? This is one of the most utterly glaring inconsistencies in the world (and is far worse then heatsinks being exactly the same as the ammo magazine capacity of the nearest modern real world equivalent weapon in ME2). That for me is a major let down, to me it says "We don't care about our own world."

The other thing, and this is a pity, is that when playing Awakening again I don't find myself going "Gee I wish I had "something" from DA2." Outside of hearing my character speak...I honestly don't miss a single change from DA2. Being able to zoom out and get an overview of the battle again, was just a huge welcome relief.

#2241
Chromie

Chromie
  • Members
  • 9 881 messages
One of my biggest complaints is how dead Kirkwall feels and how empty it is. Why were refugees refused if all I see is space?

Seriously Bioware should either work on having something like this or just license the Red Engine if possible for the DA game it would add a lot to immersion.

Living World
Environments

#2242
sami jo

sami jo
  • Members
  • 2 248 messages
(edited for odd formatting) Long response is long...

I have tried to separate my impressions of Dragon Age 2 from those of Dragon Age: Origins, but that isn’t really possible; and as a sequel, I’m not entirely certain that it should be. Let me say from the outset that I like DA2.  It’s a fun game with interesting characters.  It fails miserably as a sequel to DA:O, however.  So, I have written a comparison of the two games: what I liked, and hated, about both. 

I have struggled to pinpoint precisely why it is that I feel so let down by DA2.  I think it boils down to expectations. BioWare’s motto has always been “Story first.”  Combat has never been the primary focus of BW games.  That has always been the lure of RPGs in general, and BW games in particular, for me. 

BW, more than any other company, has consistently excelled in creating engaging stories with interesting and believable NPCs and has given the player the sense that their choices are genuinely impacting the game world.  I was disappointed when ME2 shifted the emphasis to the FPS aspects of the game and away from the RPG elements; but the story didn’t completely fall apart, and the sense that the player’s choices mattered was retained.  I knew why I was doing various side quests, even when they were somewhat tedious.  Story was where DA:O outstripped every other modern RPG.  The story and characters made up for the game’s myriad of flaws.  These are the things that have kept me returning to play the game over and over again, even though I have completed it close to a dozen times.  Each of my characters has made different choices for different reasons and left the game world slightly different. 

The pre-release press for DA2 should have warned me that the emphasis on story was absent, but I couldn’t imagine a BW RPG that didn’t have an excellent story.  All of the pre-release hype stressed the changes to combat mechanics and animations, and featured the lead designer calling the story of Origins “tedious” and the lead writer describing the conversations with the NPCs as “rambling” and “boring”.  These same devs seemed utterly confused when their comments insenced the fans of DA:O. They seemed unclear as to what had made the game a success in the first place

This does not mean that I think Origins has no flaws or that I wanted a clone of the first game.  The skills and talents did need some streamlining. There are skills and talents that are nigh-on useless and others that are overpowered.  I like the new skill tree design in DA2.  I miss some of the skills.  The ability for Hawke to persuade or intimidate his/her way out of situations would have given more variety to the gameplay in DA2, and would have given the player more room to play with Hawke’s personality.  I like much of the simplification that was done for mages, but I miss some of the party buffs.  The option to have a support/healer mage like Wynne is completely gone.  Of the party buff spells that remain, many are limited solely to Anders.  The cooldown time on healing spells is long enough to make it virtually useless.  I do really like the unique abilities for each NPC.  Some were more useful than others--Anders, Fenris and Merril's in particular.  Varric and Aveline's were less useful and closer to existing skills. Isabella and Sebastians were so broken due to their approval bugs on my first playthrough that I can't really comment on them. 

Crafting was overly complicated in Origins, and runecrafting was prohibitively expensive. From an RP perspective, the ability to make potions or poisons made sense.  I'm not sure that taking crafting completely out of the players hands except for finding resources and recipes was the right choice from an RP perspective, but I don't miss it all that much.

Character classes are much more rigid in DA2.  It’s certainly simpler to only build STR/Con warriors and DEX/CUN rogues, but it completely eliminates any flexibility in play style.  I often cranked up the dex of my warriors in Origins, particularly those using two-handed weapons.  It made them far more effective.  A STR/DEX warrior can’t use half of the equipment in DA2 because his/her CON isn’t high enough.   I’m not certain that the new system is what I would have chosen, but it is certainly much simpler, which seems to have been the mantra of the devs.  I miss the flexibility the Origins system provided.  A little complexity isn't a bad thing. 

Combat in Origins also needed some work.  The easiest difficulty setting is too difficult for many beginners, while the hardest difficulty setting is too easy for more experienced players.  Certain character builds, such as the blood mage, are wildly overpowered.  From a story standpoint, it makes sense for mages in general and blood mages in particular, to be more powerful than the other classes.  A bit more balance, particularly at the higher difficulty levels, would have been good, though.   With appropriate tactics set, Origins combat largely ran itself, but it took some time and experience to know what settings worked best.  The default tactics in DA2 are a huge improvement over the default tactical setting in Origins.  The tactics system would still benefit greatly from more fine scale control such as that provided by the Advanced Tactics mod for Origins.

Combat on the consoles for Origins is far more clunky than combat on the PC.  DA2 attempted to address the combat issues in Origins.  Combat in DA2 is definitely different.  I’m not certain I would call it better.  I miss the detatchable camera.  I miss the ability to stealth my rogue and scout far ahead.  I miss the ability to set traps and strategically place my party to best effect.  Combat in DA2 is more fast paced, which appeals to console players; and the controls are far smoother on consoles.  Predictable waves of enemies dropping out of the sky all around the party makes fights more difficult in that they take longer, but it all but removes the strategy elements.  Yes, I can micromanage my party to try to get those cross-class combos, but most of the time it is completely unneccessary.  This would bother me less if Hawke wasn’t being attacked by random bands of baddies at every turn.  Combat was not the primary focus of Origins, and so the flaws could be overlooked more easily.  Combat is 90% of the game in DA2.  It becomes tedious and predictable far too quickly.

New combat animations were hyped a great deal before the release of DA2.  I admit, the shuffling thing that warriors do in Origins looks a bit…odd.  It doesn’t impact combat mechanics, though.  The finishing moves look cool, for the most part, but watching Oghren stab an ogre to death with the blunt end of his axe always makes me chuckle.  Most of the lack of responsiveness people complain about is a function of the slowdown the game often experiences when there are too many things going on on-screen.  This is a basic memory handling issue, not a combat mechanics issue.  The combat animations for DA2 look great for the warriors. My rogue Hawke looked more like he was auditioning for Cirque du Soleil than fighting bad guys.  The mages just look ridiculous. Their run is straight out of a cartoon and Anders ends up looking like a drunken frat boy posing with a pool cue.

Also on the redesign block was the art style.  Graphics in both games have serious issues, but graphics and art style are not the same thing.  I liked the look of Origins.  It did look a bit dated, but Ferelden was suppose to be a run-down, somewhat out-dated place.  It matched the tone of the game well.  I’m not certain that the more cartoonish look of DA2 fits the dark history of Kirkwall all that well.  I know most people seem to either love it or hate it.  I’m pretty indifferent to most of the art changes.  The changes to the elves, however…I agree that the elves looked too human in Origins, but stick figures with alien heads that move like insects was not quite the change I was looking for.  Most of the elves look identical.  The Dalish tatoos often look oddly faded or smeared.  Most of the elven faces look unfinished—too round and undefined.  Fenris and Merril turned out ok, so it is possible to make the elven faces look acceptable in the new model.  Marethari makes me think of a giant praying mantis every time I look at her, particularly when she is moving.  It’s a little creepy.  If the changes were a little less extreme, the elves would still look unique without looking alien.

Level design was a major failure in DA2.  Origins re-used small sections of areas—recoloring them and putting them together differently.  Devs got screams from fans for re-using levels in DLC, but at least they were re-colored and changed slightly.  Re-using entire maps in DA2 with no alteration and simply closing off a few areas made an already tedious game more tedious, and the maps ended up simply confusing.  I could never tell where I had explored or where I still needed to explore.  Would it really have been too much effort to grey out the areas that weren’t being used?

Inventory management also changed some with this game.  I can’t say that I think that labelling “torn trousers” as junk automatically is an improvement.  If I can’t use it in any way shape or form, don’t have me pick it up.  There was already a mechanic to designate vendor trash gear in Origins, so this is not new, no matter what the fanboys scream.  The inability to fully equip my party is just flatly irritating.  If the devs want to leave Izzy in her undies for ten years, fine, but at least let me alter her gear behind the scenes to fit my play style. 

I know the devs love their staged conversations, but the complete lack of ability to initiate a single conversation with someone my character has supposedly known for close to a decade is just weird.  There were conversations that were restricted to the party camp in Origins (the final 2 romance conversations with Zevran), and there were certain conversations that would not trigger until certain plot points had happened (the post-Marjolaine conversations with Leliana or the conversations with Alistair about Goldanna). Tying some conversation releases to approval level worked well until the feastday DLC made it so ridiculously easy to raise companion approval.  There were even NPC initiated conversations (Allistair’s conversation after dealing with Connor). 

I don’t mind having certain major character conversations take place in the character’s homes and only after certain events.  It makes sense.  I don’t even mind having all conversations limited to certain locations.  I can’t imagine having a heart-to-heart with someone with other companions around in the middle of clearing a slaver den. This is not a demand for MOAR! My point is that all the things the devs have said they wanted to do with conversations in DA2 were done in Origins, and done better.   I don’t find it odd to expect that Hawke would know more about his lover of 6 years or friends of close to a decade than my Warden knew about his/her lover and friends of less than a year.  The companions in DA2 converse more with one another than they do with Hawke.  It’s disappointing because I really like the characters in DA2 and would love to get to know them better.  On a positive note, the animations for the DA2 conversation are a huge improvement over Origins. 

The conversation wheel and voiced protagonist are not my favorite things.  I like the intention icons in the conversation wheel, and I would like the wheel itself a good deal more if the paraphrases bore any resemblance to what comes out of Hawke’s mouth.  They were useless to the point of actually interfering with gameplay on a couple of occaisions when there were several branch points and it was unclear what any of the choices meant (as in the choices after killing Marethari when confronted by the rest of the clan).  It’s not broken beyond repair, but if it will be retained, the paraphrases need to be composed more carefully.  The voiced protagonist limits the RP possibilities, but the voice acting was generally well done as was all the voice acting for both games  (even Isolde, as much as her scream of TEAGAN! grates on the nerves).  I don’t like not knowing what will come out of my character’s mouth, but I can see the advantages, and potential range of lines based on the tone that has been selected, with the conversation wheel.

The story in Origins, as amazing as it is, has some flaws.  There were missed opportunities to integrate origin stories into the main story line, particularly for the Dalish.  It was done spectacularly well for both dwarven origins, and reasonably well for the human noble.  There are some places where the story doesn’t quite track such as the timing of Eamon and Anora’s marriage.  Orzamar and the Fade both take far too long.  The story suffers from as-yet unpatched bugs to dialog, plot flags and epilogue slides.  Many of these bugs have been fixed in player mods such as the Zevran Dialogue Fix and the Morrigan Restoration Patch that improve the story experience. 

Origin’s story has far more successes than failures.  All of the classic fantasy tropes are present, but they are presented in a complex and interesting way.  The Warden is faced with complex choices that can’t be neatly categorized as good or bad.  In Orzamar s/he has to choose between a good and honest man who is an ineffectual leader or a tyrant who can lead.  Harrowmont is definitely the better man, but Behlen is the dwarves best hope for long term survival.  In the Circle Tower, the Warden must choose between potentially killing innocents or potentially allowing a dangerous abomination loose.  There are dozens of choices along the same vein.  The Warden also must choose how to approach every situation.  It is possible to talk, sneak, persuade or intimidate your way through almost every confrontation that doesn’t involve the darkspawn, demons or the undead.  With every choice, the player has the sense that s/he is impacting the game world in a real way.  Choices matter, just as advertised.

In DA2, choices don’t matter.  Thugs will endlessly attack no matter how many Hawke has killed.  Hawke has to kill off both the mages and templars no matter what.  Save the blood mages and they turn on Hawke later and he has to kill them anyway.  Do everything your companions hate and they won’t leave, they’ll stay with you because they hate you so much.  They only leave if you haven’t managed to either max out their rivalry or friendship.  “Epitomize everything I despise and I will stand by you forever.”  What?!?!  It makes some degree of sense with Merril and Anders (at least it would if the rivalry ending wasn’t bugged for Anders), as you can convince them that they were wrong. As for the rest of them…it makes no sense. 

And then there are the plot issues.  How is it that my mage can toss fireballs around in front of half the templars in Kirkwall without attracting some attention?  Hawke can even use blood magic right in front of them without a single comment being made.  At least in Origins there was some attempt at an explanation as to why a mage Warden wasn’t being hunted by templars.  There is none here.  No wonder the templars have such a difficult time controlling the circle, they miss the mage throwing fireballs right in front of them.

Speaking of mages, when did they all become raving lunatics? Why is it that every mage you meet with the possible exception of yourself or your sibling is a blood mage? Well, Anders isn’t a blood mage, he’s just an abomination.  I felt as if the writers had decided to bludgeon the players with the fact that magic is bad and scary because mages were too popular in Origins.  Mages are all weak lunatics who will turn to blood magic at the slightest provocation and templars are all either power mad or spineless.  Got it. You can stop beating the point to death now.  There are no good people left in Thedas with enough of a spine to effect change.

The timeline for Anders simply doesn’t comply with the established timeline for Origins and Awakenings.  I realize that the devs have decided to ignore those inconvenient epilogues, thereby removing much of the sense that the player’s choices mattered, but to contradict their own main story line less than a year later seems like very poor planning. It’s sad because the fusing of Anders and Justice could have been very interesting, but it is barely explored in DA2.  Justice takes over and nearly kills a mage and Hawke gets to have a very brief conversation with Anders about it—complete with flirting… I really want to explore the character more, but there are no opportunities.

The romances were clearly an afterthought and were simply hitched onto existing conversations.  This leads to the bizzarre situation in which your lover of 6 years has moved in with you but won’t talk to you outside of their own home, or breaks up with you for 3 years but expects you to be faithful.  The Fenris romance suffers the most from this lack of attention, but none of the romances are all that believable.  There simply isn’t enough interaction.  No, I don’t want a dating sim, but if romances are going to be included, they should be done well, not as an afterthought. And honestly, how many adults don’t have a single romance over the course of a decade?  It would be a little strange to not include some sort of romance in the DA2 story. 

Side quests are not integrated into the story at all in DA2.  This is a problem since most of the game time is spent doing endless FedEx quests.  Just last night, my mage Hawke handed a dead body to some random Dalish guy who said, “Thanks, I thought that was lost forever.”  Aside from the really inappropriate response, these quests are pointless.  There is some semblance of story to go along with each of the side quests in Origins, and some rationale as to why the Warden would bother doing them.  Even with many of the main plot quests in DA2, I find myself wondering what I am doing and why

Too much information and story ends up being dumped into the codex with no in-game reference to it.  The only way to find out what has happened during the three year time jumps is to sit down and read a novel out of the codex.  This does not “streamline” gameplay.  It brings it to a screeching halt.

Beyond the conversation issues and plot holes, the story simply doesn’t feel epic.  Hawke is the “slightly-above average-and-very-lucky-Joe”.  Hawke isn’t a hero.  There is one conversation after another about the growing tension between mages and templars and how out of control Meredith is, but Hawke is never presented with an opportunity to do anything about it.  Even at the very end, there is no choice.  There is no depth to the few decisions the player can make.  Aveline is far more heroic than Hawke is.  Anders gets to be the anti-hero.  Hawke is…along for the ride.

In Origins, we were given the opportunity to create a unique character and save the world.  It is a classic fantasy trope, but players had unprecedented control over their character’s personality and story.  I have played half a dozen male Dalish rogues and each one was unique.  I could make him angry, guilt ridden, homesick, shem-hating, adventurous, scared, unwilling, friendly, rude… A good story with that sort of player freedom with the main character is difficult to write and program.  There are so many potential variables that most companies won’t even attempt it; and most of the bugs in Origins arise from handling various plot flags and conversation branches.  Given what a massive undertaking it was, it is amazing that there aren’t more of those bugs.  Players are very attached to “their Warden”.  I’m not at all attached to my Hawke.  There are really only three personality options for Hawke and those were defined by the writers.  This, I think, is my biggest disappointment in the game, and the reason so many people feel such a disconnect with the other characters.  I have no connection to or investment in either Hawke or the story.  I was with the Arishok in letting Kirkwall burn, not that I was a big fan of the Qunari either.  I can continue to replay Origins, even though I have seen every twist and turn in the story, because I can make each new Warden different.  DA2 has bored me less than halfway through my second character.

This shows up in the fanfiction.  There are countless stories revolving around original Wardens for Origins.  There is less fanfiction for DA2 than there was for Origins at the same point post-release, and a good chunk of what is out there is focused more on the NPCs.  Any generic (select one) nice/snarky/nasty Hawke will substitute.  Fanfiction is hardly high art, but it does reflect how the fans are reacting to the story and characters.  There are also far fewer fanfictions exploring the in-game story.  No one feels the need to explain the backstory for why their Hawke sided with the templars in side quest number 193. There are reams of fanfiction describing the backstory for every plot turn in Origins. 

The devs took the RP out of my RPG and left me with an ok action game with a mediocre story and awesome NPCs with bits (many not importing correctly) to remind me of how amazing Origins was.  It leaves a bad taste behind less because it’s a terrible game, which it isn’t, but because it could and should have been so much better.  This dev team is clearly capable of better.  Instead of attempting to attract people who don’t normally play RPGs by turning the DA franchise into an action series, do what Origins did and attract people who don’t normally play RPGs with spectacular characters and story telling. 

Modifié par sami jo, 14 mai 2011 - 02:15 .


#2243
Kissing the pink

Kissing the pink
  • Members
  • 13 messages
OMG, a bloody essay, on this god awful game! How the hell can anyone like this junk? PEOPLE WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE! compared to DAO its utter tripe! you have been severly ripped off! think back to the times when a pc game was epic! as in you explored or faught over a massive area! where you needed a graphics card that was as expensive as one of those namby pamby consoles all in! I keep saying, this is half a game, and half a not very good one designed to get a quick buck for as little input as possible. If you really liked this game, well, god knows what your used to, probably a farty Xbox or Ps3 so called game.

#2244
Fadook

Fadook
  • Members
  • 153 messages
I started playing DA2 the day it came out but still haven't finished. There are two big reasons that my attention has flagged. One is the recycled areas - plenty has been said on this.

The other reason, which is an even bigger problem for me, is the lack of enemy variety. What's the difference between fighting thugs, darkspawn, skeletons, dwarves and Qunari? Very little except for different immunities on Nightmare, which is hardly a big difference. Even demon groups lack distinctiveness. Combat becomes quite repetitive as there's little tactical variation necessary in most fights and enemies have few abilities. Most just whale away at you with standard attacks. Deciding not to give enemies player abilities wouldn't have been a problem if BW had decided to substitute them with something else. But they didn't.

Modifié par Fadook, 12 mai 2011 - 06:32 .


#2245
BomimoDK

BomimoDK
  • Members
  • 806 messages
The Detachable camera that was promised in DA2. Can we at least have that in DA3? I don't know how to not sound annoyed or entitled here, but it's pretty damn uncool to go and advertise a (NOT ISOMETRIC, BUT) detachable camera at all times during combat and then just cut it entirely from the PC version and THEN letting the Console versions have some hybrid solution where AOE effects are placed with a detached camera. I don't mean to be demanding or rude, but that's a big flaw. I do not dare to expect it to be patched in, but i hope it'll be there in the next few games since Combat in DA2 isn't challenging because of balanced rules, but rather clunky camera controls.

#2246
zwa

zwa
  • Members
  • 1 messages
They're so overpowered! They'll disappear and one shot my healer, or if they don't, they'll half my tank's health! And there seems to be no CD. Tsk Tsk!
= use offensive spells that affect large area......they ll be forced to appear.

#2247
DecCylonus

DecCylonus
  • Members
  • 269 messages
I had fun playing through Dragon Age 2, and yet I have no desire to play through it again. I liked the story, and the fact that it was less epic. I enjoyed the characters and I think they are among the best Bioware has created. Several flaws keep me from wanting to replay the game right now.

First and foremost, after Baldur's Gate 2, the design of map areas in Bioware games has become more and more linear. They compensated for that well by having lots of areas to explore. However, the constant reuse of the same areas in DA2 highlights the linearity and turns it into an ugly problem. In Dragon Age: Origins, I ran through linear level after linear level, but I still got that sense of exploration and adventure because there were so many areas. In DA2, I was just running through the same old streets of Kirkwall for 40+ hours. New enemies and quests were not enough to keep old areas fresh. The constant revisiting also highlights other restrictions on the player's movement, such as the countless doors that won't open and pathways blocked by carts. Other RPGs have given us much more freedom to move, explore, and marvel at the make-believe world created for us. In my opinion, Bioware's constricted design has become dated when so many other games offer open worlds. I would even argue it's a step back from Baldur's Gate 1 & 2. Future games need more freedom, not less.

Second is the oversimplification of the class system. Forcing each character type to rely exclusively on two stats takes any nuance out of stat building. Then limiting the weapon choices for each class further reduces customization. In the end you can really only build two types of warrior or rogue. Mages have a few more options, but not many. Characters are reduced to the most basic stereotypes of their class, and that is disappointing.

Third is the oversimplification of the equipment. Every class gets only one armor type, instead of being forced to choose pros and cons of lighter or heavier armor like DA:O. Bioware also took away the pro / con system for the different weapon types, meaning you now just use whatever you can find with the highest damage output. Making the Champion's Armor the best you could get took away any joy in putting together a customized suit for Hawke. Similarly, taking away the ability to customize your companions took most of the joy out of finding loot. I understand Bioware wanted them to keep their iconic look, but that meant I just sold 99% of the armor I found.  A better solution would be to give each character several skins for different armor types. Then they could equip different armors and retain their "iconic look." Lastly, it seemed that most of the magic equipment bonuses did very little. A few bonuses were really nice. However, it was disappointing to find five star equipment in Act 3 that only gave a couple of 5% bonuses.

Fourth, the combat system needs work. I actually like the idea of more action-oriented combat in RPGs, but I don't think it was implemented well in DA2. The special attacks just felt weak. In DA:O, a strategic use of a special attack would let you knock an enemy out of the fight. In DA2, they did too little damage and had too little stun or disabling effects. The emphasis on getting characters to work together for cross class combos required micro-managing everyone, which defeated the purpose of more action oriented gameplay. In the end, combat was just a big button mash. It is possible to combine action gameplay with strategy, but it doesn't work in DA2.

Also, the combat was unbalanced. Scores of regular foes presented little real threat of killing the party, but took way too long to kill, especially in the beginning. By Act 3 a lot of fights felt like a rehash of Dynasty Warriors, which is not a compliment. Bosses, on the other hand, are way too strong by comparison. They had insane amounts of hitpoints and devastating attacks that nobody in the party could match. Making them mostly immune to special attacks and able to ignore most of your defenses was just lame. I didn't feel like a hero in those fights. I felt like a bee stinging an elephant to death. A lot of the boss fights felt cheap, and all of them got boring when I had hack at the boss for 20 minutes with the same basic attacks. Honestly, the strength of enemies and bosses was just about perfect in DA:O. It baffles me why Bioware thought DA2 was an improvement in this area.

Last but not least, the conclusion of the story left me feeling like nothing I did had meaning. It didn't matter who I sided with in the end. I knew things were going to hell, but all Hawke could manage was to save or kill a few of his/her own companions. I didn't feel much like a champion, just like some schmoe caught in the middle. That may fit with how things are in the real world and with the tale Bioware wanted to tell. However, the build up to the end left me believing I could make a difference with my choices. I was disappointed when I couldn't. The end game choices were much more meaningful in DA:O, and I missed that in DA2.

To conclude, my biggest gripe is still the first. However, there was an overall loss of freedom in this game, in everything from the areas to the character building to the equipment choices to combat strategies to story impact. I play RPGs because I like to explore and I like to build and customize characters in different ways. DA2 put me in a straight jacket  on both of these things, which greatly reduced my enjoyment. The story was interesting, but not enough to salvage the game for me. I honestly can't decide if I want to play DA2 again. Future games need to be bigger and have more choices, not fewer. I hope DA2 is the last step in the wrong direction before a reversal.

Modifié par DecCylonus, 13 mai 2011 - 05:54 .


#2248
Juggernaut241

Juggernaut241
  • Members
  • 47 messages
I thought it was a great game. Most complaints were maybe side nuances but nothing more. In all my years of gaming I have yet to find a game on any console that didnt come without a glitch or conflict. Perfection is exagerated. Excited for the story DLC. Can Bioware at least give us an inquiry as to what month we might see something in DLC? The suspense is getting to me!!!

#2249
Kissing the pink

Kissing the pink
  • Members
  • 13 messages
And there we have it....console, do you realise how consoles have ruined games? have you any idea how good a game was...I say again WAS until those bloody toy boxes called consoles came along? No..no idea what so ever!

#2250
wildannie

wildannie
  • Members
  • 2 223 messages

Kissing the pink wrote...

And there we have it....console, do you realise how consoles have ruined games? have you any idea how good a game was...I say again WAS until those bloody toy boxes called consoles came along? No..no idea what so ever!


I don't think you're being very constructive, what are you trying to achieve?