305 réponses à ce sujet

[Everwarden]

Kroitz wrote...
I can read that you are upset and in some cases or stories I fell the same, I just don´t agree with you on this one because after the final sentence from Varric it does fell like "but that´s another story". And I liked it.

Not upset. Really, I'm not. It's hard to convey emotion in text, but the tone I'm aiming for is "snide sarcasm", not anger. 

But if you like the abrupt cut off with no follow up, that's your right. I thought it was half-assed, and among the worst endings I've seen. Can't really debate taste, can only give my reasons for feeling like I do, and my wall of text did just that. 

[Everwarden]

PTPR wrote...

Fallout 3 had a very poetic ending, I loved it.

Going to explain why the ending of Fallout 3 is so bad briefly, only because it keeps coming up and I guess I need to justify the comparison.

The ending battle was contrived. There was no actual hurry to get the purifier back. In the unlikely event the Enclave actually got the thing working, what's wrong with that? They'll make the basin clean and people will have water, the entire point of the horrible main questline? Yeah. That makes sense. It's not like you can just put a pump into the giant, now-clean basin and get your own clean water, right? Nope. That would just.. be too logical.

Oh, and of course your radiation immune followers refuse to do it. Makes sense if you bang your head against the keyboard hard enough.

Let's not forget that the machine is built to purify water, so of course it has to have a radiation leak in the user interface area. And you can't just, you know, turn it on, run like hell and pop a radaway. 

Oh, and a giant robot does all of your work for you. That's great.

And of course the 'multiple endings', which just means you can kill yourself, kill the girl who isn't wearing a helmet, let the machine blow up, or poison yourself. Brilliant writing there. 

I could go on and on, but stopping there. The ending was garbage, and the only ending of a major title that I can think of that was -worse- than the abrupt brick wall that DA2 hit. If I can say one nice thing about the ending of DA2, it's that it didn't make me angry like Fallout 3, just sad. That's the last I'll debate about Fallout in public, though, lest a mod lock this thread down. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 16 mars 2011 - 08:56 .

[JamieCOTC]

I thought the boss fights at the end were ridiculous and the "mages are bad" being underlined, quotated, in parenthesis, and in all caps was a bit much too, but other than that, I liked it.

[Everwarden]

JamieCOTC wrote...

I thought the boss fights at the end were ridiculous and the "mages are bad" being underlined, quotated, in parenthesis, and in all caps was a bit much too, but other than that, I liked it.

What do you mean other than that? That was the entire third act! 

[AtreiyaN7]

My response to your subjective opinion is my subjective opinion that you're completely wrong. The ending of DA2 concludes with World War III in Thedas having been started, and I think it was a good way to close, leaving one to contemplate how this war will reshape Thedas. However, I tend to take the long view because I know that this is a piece of a much larger tapestry that's being woven. Furthermore, the mention of the Warden and the Champion vanishing? I like the mystery of it. It seems to me that they're involved in something big that's either related to stopping the war or are responding to some other threat (whether or not it's the Old Gods, the lyrium idol, OGB or something else).

As far as endings that I hate (which I've mentioned before in the forums), The Sopranos ending is probably tops. If you think DA2 was unsatisfying, maybe you should try watching that. I didn't really follow the series much, but my dad was a huge Sopranos fan. He inexplicably liked the fade-to-black. I didn't. Go figure on that one.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 15 mars 2011 - 09:53 .

[upsettingshorts]

Everwarden wrote...

If I can say one nice thing about the ending of DA2, it's that it didn't make me angry like Fallout 3, just sad.

If the ending of DA2 made you sad, I think it's working as intended.  A war started, and you were there when it did.  

[PTPR]

Everwarden wrote...

PTPR wrote...

Fallout 3 had a very poetic ending, I loved it.

Going to explain why the ending of Fallout 3 is so bad briefly, only because it keeps coming up and I guess I need to justify the comparison.

The ending battle was contrived. There was no actual hurry to get the purifier back. In the unlikely event the Enclave actually got the thing working, what's wrong with that? They'll make the basin clean and people will have water, the entire point of the horrible main questline? Yeah. That makes sense. It's not like you can just put a pump into the giant, now-clean basin and get your own clean water, right? Nope. That would just.. be too logical.

Oh, and of course your radiation immune followers refuse to do it. Makes sense if you bang you head against the keyboard hard enough.

Let's not forget that the machine is built to purify water, so of course it has to have a radiation leak in the user interface area. And you can't just, you know, turn it on, run like hell and pop a radaway. 

Oh, and a giant robot does all of your work for you. That's great.

And of course the 'multiple endings', which just means you can kill yourself, kill the girl who isn't wearing a helmet, let the machine blow up, or poison yourself. Brilliant writing there. 

I could go on and on, but stopping there. The ending was garbage, and the only ending of a major title that I can think of that was -worse- than the abrupt brick wall that DA2 hit. If I can say one nice thing about the ending of DA2, it's that it didn't make me angry like Fallout 3, just sad. That's the last I'll debate about Fallout in public, though, lest a mod lock this thread down. 

See, I don't think about contrivances in stories, if only because when I look, I see them everywhere. After ruining book after book, I decided that accepting what's given to you is the best way to go. The writer is not thinking how outlandish or impossible that part of the story is, but what it says about the characters, world, etc. I think the issues the BSN has with stories stems from inability to suspend disbelief. 
Not that that's bad, everyone has opinions, but it will often ruin great things, including many famous stories in literature.

[Everwarden]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

If I can say one nice thing about the ending of DA2, it's that it didn't make me angry like Fallout 3, just sad.

If the ending of DA2 made you sad, I think it's working as intended.  A war started, and you were there when it did.  

I'll amend. Sad for all the wrong reasons. Sad at the lost opportunity to make Dragon Age 2 a great game, and not just a filler sequel to cash in. 

[upsettingshorts]

Everwarden wrote...

I'll amend. Sad for all the wrong reasons. Sad at the lost opportunity to make Dragon Age 2 a great game, and not just a filler sequel to cash in.

*shrug*

DA2 was a great game with a great story that put its predecessor to shame, especially with regards to the fact it was possible for your protagonist to end the game having totally failed in his or her goals.

But that's just my subjective opinion.  If this is "filler" I'd love to see more of it.  To me DAO served us well as exposition and an introduction to a new universe.  DA2 actually had a point.  

[Clonedzero]

i kinda disagree with your judgement of the DA2 ending, it was a bit over the top, especially with orisino turning into a monster and meredith going all crazy anime on you but aside from that i thought it was great.

Fallout 3 though did have one of the worst stories in recent memory of any RPG. it was flat out horrible. non-sensical plot, bad guys that have EXACTLY THE SAME MOTIVATION as the good guys, bad guys that are never ever ever explained why they're bad. universally bad written characters, it was awful. fun to explore the world but that was it

[JamesX]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

*shrug*

DA2 was a great game with a great story that put its predecessor to shame, especially with regards to the fact it was possible for your protagonist to end the game having totally failed in his or her goals.

But that's just my subjective opinion.  If this is "filler" I'd love to see more of it.  To me DAO served us well as exposition and an introduction to a new universe.  DA2 actually had a point.  

So saving the lives of millions has no point.  Failure at saving anyone has a point?

odd logic 

[Everwarden]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
My response to your subjective opinion is my subjective opinion that you're completely wrong.

My opinion was strongly supported by facts and objective arguments. If you're willing to look past the flaws and enjoy it anyway, that's cool. 

However, I tend to take the long view because I know that this is a piece of a much larger tapestry that's being woven. Furthermore, the mention of the Warden and the Champion vanishing? I like the mystery of it.

Yes. This game isn't telling a unique story that needs to be told for its own sake, it's a set-up story to preamble the next game. I don't think that's a good thing, and I don't think 'the mystery of it' is a good thing, either. Does that mean they're bringing my warden back? Will he have a voice? God I hope not. They've ruined my Dragon Age experience enough already without demolishing my Warden. 

As far as endings that I hate (which I've mentioned before in the forums), The Sopranos ending is probably tops. If you think DA2 was unsatisfying, maybe you should try watching that. I didn't really follow the series much, but my dad was a huge Sopranos fan. He inexplicably liked teh fade-to-black. I didn't. Go figure on that one.

When I heard about the fade-to-black Sopranos ending I immediately stopped watching the series (was on season 2). A bad ending ruins the experience for me.

Which is why I pretend Heroes had only one season. 

[Everwarden]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
DA2 was a great game with a great story that put its predecessor to shame, especially with regards to the fact it was possible for your protagonist to end the game having totally failed in his or her goals.

But that's just my subjective opinion.  

See, that's the problem. I don't want your subjective opinion, or at least not 'just' that. I want your objective arguments to support your subjective opinion. Claiming that DA2>DAO is a pretty bold statement, and I don't think you can back that up with anything -but- subjective opinion.

[Il Divo]

Everwarden wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
My response to your subjective opinion is my subjective opinion that you're completely wrong.

My opinion was strongly supported by facts and objective arguments. If you're willing to look past the flaws and enjoy it anyway, that's cool. 

It's hard to maintain objectivity when you're claiming that the giant robot instantly made the ending horrible. It sounds more like you've just had a really long time to think about this.

[Stevie 402]

I liked the ending for DA2. It had that Empire Strikes Back kind of hopeless, just barely survived, we are up the creek with out a paddle feel. I just would have liked some more character development especially with Merideth. I loved Loghain ( even though I always executed him) because he such a tragic and complex hero/villian. Merideth just seems to be a nutty ol batcase with a lyrium sword. Next game I want Cassandra to be in my party. I am a sucker for anyone that sounds like Isabella Rosellini.

[Icy Magebane]

What is it with people on this forum bashing Bethesda games? Geez... Fallout 3 is one of the best games ever made. Broken Steel was a better conclusion, of course...

[Everwarden]

Il Divo wrote...

It's hard to maintain objectivity when you're claiming that the giant robot instantly made the ending horrible. It sounds more like you've just had a really long time to think about this.

That one quibble was about Fallout 3, not DA2 (which is what I was arguing in that post). I'll admit that my dislike for Liberty Prime being used at the end is subjective, and it's more ambivalence than pure dislike. It was fun, but it was stupid. It was also only one of a list of points I made. 

[Everwarden]

Icy Magebane wrote...

What is it with people on this forum bashing Bethesda games? Geez... Fallout 3 is one of the best games ever made. Broken Steel was a better conclusion, of course...

The reason I bash Bethesda is because they make games that are amazing... but have awful, awful writing. It's tragic how bad the dialogue and story are in Fallout 3, which would have been -the- best game ever made if it had Bioware level writing. 

[Bradigan]

2 rules of game manufacturing:

RULE # 1. If there is any indication of a continuing plot or story line for the next game dont worry about it were gonna start over with something else.

RULE # 2. see rule 1.

So before you get your hopes up or have any great ideas learn from what you have experienced and just wait for whatever happens, it won't be what you expect.

[Everwarden]

Bradigan wrote...

2 rules of game manufacturing:

RULE # 1. If there is any indication of a continuing plot or story line for the next game dont worry about it were gonna start over with something else.

RULE # 2. see rule 1.

So before you get your hopes up or have any great ideas learn from what you have experienced and just wait for whatever happens, it won't be what you expect.

I was going to ask for some examples, but immediately realized that DA2 was, itself, an example. People expected something a lot different before the "5 facts about Hawke" preview. 

[AtreiyaN7]

Everwarden wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

However, I tend to take the long view because I know that this is a piece of a much larger tapestry that's being woven. Furthermore, the mention of the Warden and the Champion vanishing? I like the mystery of it.

Yes. This game isn't telling a unique story that needs to be told for its own sake, it's a set-up story to preamble the next game. I don't think that's a good thing, and I don't think 'the mystery of it' is a good thing, either. Does that mean they're bringing my warden back? Will he have a voice? God I hope not. They've ruined my Dragon Age experience enough already without demolishing my Warden. 

And that's wrong? Every book in a trilogy or a series has its part to play. I've read the Dark Tower series, and not every book in it focused solely on the main character. Sometimes the emphasis was on specific companions and their roles in the larger story (not that the protagonist wasn't present, but the focus was clearly on the companions like Odetta or Jake).

I'm sorry, but I think DA2 did have a unique story that was worth telling. I enjoyed seeing Hawke's role in triggering the war that will reshape the world. It was a nice change of pace from the big bad evil boss at the end. At any rate, if you want complete closure in each and every game/story, then why bother reading a trilogy that hasn't been completed or a starting on a lengthy series like The Wheel of Time? I remember plenty of cliffhangers in the DT & TWoT series.

Do you have to wait until ALL the books are out to start reading because you want that one, single "final" ending with complete closure? I wasn't keen on the original FO3 ending, but that's because of the forced sacrfice which made no logical sense for my character. I had Fawkes with me, aka my highly intelligent supermutant friend who happened to be immune to deadly radiation.

[Icy Magebane]

Everwarden wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

What is it with people on this forum bashing Bethesda games? Geez... Fallout 3 is one of the best games ever made. Broken Steel was a better conclusion, of course...

The reason I bash Bethesda is because they make games that are amazing... but have awful, awful writing. It's tragic how bad the dialogue and story are in Fallout 3, which would have been -the- best game ever made if it had Bioware level writing. 

Fair enough.  You like the game itself, and that's good enough for me.  Whether the writing is good or bad is purely a matter of opinion, and I don't fault you for not sharing my own.  Then again, I read a lot of comics, so maybe I'm not the best judge of writing... lol.

Oh, and for the record, I agree with pretty much everything you said about DA2... the plot wasn't strong at all, it was far too linear, and a lot of the circumstances relating to the ending were illogical.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 15 mars 2011 - 10:30 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

JamieCOTC wrote...

I thought the boss fights at the end were ridiculous and the "mages are bad" being underlined, quotated, in parenthesis, and in all caps was a bit much too, but other than that, I liked it.

*("MAGES ARE BAD")*

Had to see how it would look like.

And agreed with the op, made a similar thread.

[Dangerfoot]

I thought Fallout 3, Fable and Dragon Age 2 all had fine endings. None of them stood out as being awful, really.

[Everwarden]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
And that's wrong? Every book in a trilogy or a series has its part to play. I've read the Dark Tower series, and not every book in it focused solely on the main character. Sometimes the emphasis was on specific companions and their roles in the larger story (not that the protagonist wasn't present, but the focus was clearly on the companions like Odetta or Jake).

It's wrong if the book can't stand on its own as a story. I don't even mind cliffhangers (though the Bioware writing team has overused them in their recent games), but Dragon Age 2 had all the hallmarks of a rushed game pushed out just to set up the next game and cash in on the popularity of the far superior original. Setting up points to use in the future isn't what I'm complaining about, I'm complaining that that's all that is accomplished in this game, and the end is entirely cemented beforehand. You don't get any closure like you did in Origins. You fight the final battle, it's lackluster, and then you get a teaser trailer ("Buy our next game and we'll finish the story, promise!") before the credits roll. 

To give an example of a story that had enormous set up, a cliffhanger ending, and still managed to be awesome: A Storm of Swords, the third book in the Song of Ice and Fire series, and the series that Dragon Age is loosely inspired by. The significant difference is that after the climax of the story, there is a period of closure and cooldown before the twist cliffhanger, so the reader is satisfied with 'this' story, but still wants to read the next one.

Hell, Origins had a good cliffhanger too with the dark ritual. That didn't ruin the experience, because it was done well. The end of Dragon Age 2 suffers from a bad case of the not-done-well. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 15 mars 2011 - 10:45 .