305 réponses à ce sujet

[BillKephart]

This game is almost certainly getting a full size expansion similar to awakening...and multiple DLC campaigns if origins is any indication. The ending is forgivable in light of that. I realize the business reality of doing this but I kind of resent the whole mandatory DLC model.

[ABCoLD]

I chuckled at the first post and mostly agreed. Then facepalmed at the vitriol of the subsequent defending posts.

I was annoyed at how railroady the final act was. First I really wanted an option of 'Look, you're completely convinced all Mages are maleficarum. If three got away from you, good.' and just walk away and be sad later when I find out how... well honestly I'm not sure what the Elf Blood Mage was trying to do... what was he trying to do? Beyond killing his wife to power a ritual that turned him into a bad thing... I didn't really get much of a plan from him.

The people screaming out "Look, that lady is spying on us! Kill her" when I've been friendlying up Mages for the entire game and THEY LIVE WITH MY MAGE SISTER was pretty dang nuts.

Mega-Meridith at the end was kinda crazy.

That being said I DO think that you'll find that the city of Kirkwall was where the Tevinter Imperium broke through and entered the Golden City, with the help of Blood Magic and a group of Primeval Dwarves. I suspect the evil idol is the predecessor to Darkspawn creation.

[Everwarden]

Kroitz wrote...
There was no "Running down apostates" for me.

Then you need to pay more attention to your railroad tour of Kirkwall, sir, because those apostate hunting quests are forced onto you, like it or not. (I'm in the "or not" catagory)

 there was no force fed "all mages are evil".

Yes. We were, in fact, force fed the notion that 'the mages are ebil too'. 2/3 of the apostates you're forced to hunt are evil, mommy is killed by a blood mage who is funded by the leader of the circle, and you're forced to kill waves and waves of demons and abominations even if you pick the mage side.

The bloodmage in the remains quest was a twisted individual, but also the templar knight in Anders questline that forced trancuility on every acuasion. Even a sexual motivation was hinted at. 

Yes. And then they make it clear that this one templar is acting entirely in opposition even to crazy Meredith, which neutralizes the effect.
 

The whole plot build up to that big descision. Every Sidequest gave you the information or emotional investment to side with both. You could make many descisions before that, some which would mean the death of an companion or NPC. What descisions whould you have liked?

I answer that question in my original post, actually. 

I found the boss fight was much better then in Origins, much better staged. Most of them were. 

Good for you. I didn't. In Origins (most) of the bosses actually had buildup, DA2 substitutes depth with special effects. "Oooh.. rock wraith is shooting out pretty shards.."

[syn010110]

Fallout 3's ending only sucked if you failed to install Broken Steel.

Origins' boss fights had depth? Every one of them was tank-and-spank, and not a single one EVER gave me difficulty.

The game Origins was a Shout Out to had better designed (and harder, hoo boy some of the ToB fights were brutal) boss fights, and it was made ten years ago!

[Everwarden]

syn010110 wrote...
Fallout 3's ending only sucked if you failed to install Broken Steel.

And then Broken Steel disarms the entire (awful) main questline. Which is good, really, but not something you should have to pay ten bucks for.

Origins' boss fights had depth? Every one of them was tank-and-spank, and not a single one EVER gave me difficulty.

I was referring to depth of character, not difficulty. The fight with Loghain was far more charged than the fight with Meredith, because you had a lot more time to understand him. Rendon Howe is another example. Most of the bosses in Origins were actually people, not just random **** thrown at your character for the cool pewpew effects. 

The only fight in DA2 that I actually gave a rat's fuzzy ass about was the fight with the Arishok, because I respected the character. 

[Annie_Dear]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

No, Fallout 3's ending was stupid because you had options that didn't involve death but had to because the plot said so.

I enjoyed the ending and can't wait for what will happen next.

This. It felt pretty stupid having someone who's immune to the radiation standing next to you and being unable to send them in...

Also, DA2's ending left me hungry for more. I love it when a game does that.

[Shathiell]

With regards to the comment about Hawke missing "... along with the Warden", are they talking about Anders or the Warden Hero from DA:O? (As my warden followed Morrigan into the mirror, hence missing)

Also, I seem to remember comments before the release date saying the game will take place over 10 years, however I can only count 7 ?(Unless I have missed something, or maybe this will include an Expansion)

I really enjoyed the game, right until the ending.. Maybe because I was expecting another act.. Maybe because I felt like I needed more answers, like is Lyrium the true source of all corruption in Thedas? (Explains why it turned everyone who touched that idol) Is Lyrium the real cause behind the Darkspawn? What secret mission were the Wardens on in the second act? Is it all related? Maybe time will tell...

Also, besides the mirror reference, there was nothing at all mentioning Morrigan... I just feel that little bit more cheated now for Witch hunt

Oh... Did anyone else notice the thing the first enchanter turned into was very similar to what you faced in Golems of Amgarrak, right down to the little crawling things?

[Everwarden]

Annie_Dear wrote...
Also, DA2's ending left me hungry for more. I love it when a game does that.

DAO did that without having to slam abruptly into a brick wall and contrive a cliffhanger.

[Everwarden]

Shathiell wrote...

With regards to the comment about Hawke missing "... along with the Warden", are they talking about Anders or the Warden Hero from DA:O? (As my warden followed Morrigan into the mirror, hence missing)

"The" Warden usually refers to your warden in DAO, because they can't use his/her name.

Also, I seem to remember comments before the release date saying the game will take place over 10 years, however I can only count 7 ?(Unless I have missed something, or maybe this will include an Expansion)

I suspect that the original plan, before they got hit with a time crunch, was to have another act. I have no proof of that, but the game certainly feels like it's missing the intended ending and just had one stapled on to push the game out. 

[Palando]

I mostly agree with the original post, but not quite to the same extent. I think the premise for the act was reasonable. The knight commander gets corrupted by the idol, which transforms her zealotry into megalomaniacal fanatacism. Many mages raging against the harsh conditions imposed by Meredith resort to blood magic and are in turn corrupted. The impossible task of trying to find a middle path between two groups consumed with the crimes of the extremists of the other side should have worked, but there was too much that didn't ring true, particularly if you publically denounced Meredith. Going to the secret meeting and being attacked is the prime example.

I don't think it's terrible. Tracking down the escapees for Meredith seemed reasonable. She is sure that she is right and that I can be brought around to seeing reason if I encounter a couple of terrible Blood Mages. And of course one of them turns out not to be a Blood Mage, which seems to be a pretty balanced outcome.

It's a shame too little of it rang true. I was really enthused after Act 2 and couldn't wait for more, but unfortunately the ending wasn't up to the same standard. If it makes you feel any better, there was a time when these sort of problems were pretty normal in computer games, but Bioware has raised the bar sufficiently high that the player expects better.

[Everwarden]

Palando wrote...
but Bioware has raised the bar sufficiently high that the player expects better.

I expect better from Bioware, not all games, Bioware sells its games on story and characters more than any other company I can think of. The reused environments didn't bother or surprise me (hell, if that's what they need to do to focus on their strengths, I'll encourage it), but they didn't deliver on the things I wanted from them: Hard choices with consequences, well developed characters that you really get to know*,  and a solid story that doesn't have the huge, gaping logic fails (like the ones you'll find riddled in every Bethesda game). 

*I liked the characters, but they didn't give them enough dialogue. It felt like an expansion pack to Origins in that regard, not a sequel. 

[blacqout]

My only issue with the ending is that the precursor to probably the single biggest event in the game entailed collecting human excrement in a sewer. I really do think that the build up to Anders' terrorist attack could have been handled a lot better.

The more i think about Meredith and Orsino's parts in the endgame the more i like it. The pair destroyed each other and you were left to deal with the aftermath. Meredith's cracking down broke Orsino's spirit, so he eventually gave up and turned into a Harvester. Orsino's constant turning a blind eye to blood magic created a circumstance that allowed Meredith's feelings to be justified and her fragile state of mind/insanity to flourish. It was a really great endgame.

As said, the game was about Hawke and his rise to power, and we got closure on that. He rose to power, saved Kirkwall, and then his position in that city was changed as a result. Either ascending to Viscount or being forced to exile.

Modifié par blacqout, 16 mars 2011 - 12:31 .

[Palando]

Everwarden wrote...

: Hard choices with consequences,

I agonised with a number of decisions in this game. Siding with the mages and against the Qunari were admittedly not very tough, but I thought long and hard about trusting Anders. Maybe I should have thought harder about what he might have needed saltpeter for and that decision mightn't have blown up in my face.

[Everwarden]

Palando wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

: Hard choices with consequences,

I agonised with a number of decisions in this game. Siding with the mages and against the Qunari were admittedly not very tough.

But those two should have been the hardest choices, since they were the largest. And they both should have had an actual effect on the way the end plays out... and they don't.

The hardest choice in the game for me was, oddly, a minor one that has no effect on anything at all. It was whether or not I let Depuis, the first murder suspect, go. He could be telling a clever lie and could kill again, but if I'm wrong I'm killing an innocent(ish) man. That's a tough call that amounts to nothing, since mommy bites it either way. 

[tenshi_no_hone]

I felt like I got to see the results of many of my choices during the game itself. What did you do when you met Feynriel, or that Magistrate's son? Instead of a line of text I saw it during my time in Kirkwall. I think a text epilogue is something Bioware RPGs should be trying to get away from. They didn't do it perfectly here, but I appreciate something other than a glorified codex entry at the end!

I also thought the the events at the Chantry eclipsed everything else in the end game anyway. I have never before been moved to kill one of the most useful party members in a BIoware game - I'm a collector of companions normally. But no way Anders was walking away! Credit to Bioware for all the great elements of that ending, even if I wanted to choose to finish Orsino and Meredith's bickering by taking control of the circle and templars instead of having to take sides

[Palando]

Everwarden wrote...

But those two should have been the hardest choices, since they were the largest. And they both should have had an actual effect on the way the end plays out... and they don't.

My understanding is that if you side with the templars you become Viscount of Kirkwall rather than an exile. Admittedly that is one of those uforseeable consequence things. I would also be very surprised if that decision (and possible the Qunari decision) doesn't have a big influence on Dragon Age 3.

[rumination888]

I think a lot of the schism between people that liked DA2's story vs. those that hated it is due to Mr. Gaider's seeming obsession with removing exposition from dialogue. DA:O had a lot of it in their dialogue, whereas DA2 had very little.

Infact, the vast majority of exposition in dialogue concerns the Arishok and the Qun. It isnt a coincidence that the Qunari side of DA2's story is the one that the majority of people liked. Personally, I preferred Act 3 over Act 2(I also enjoyed DA2's ending), but thats because I don't need exposition to understand a situation, or the depth of a character.

[nightscrawl]

Everwarden wrote...

I assume this is meant to be a 'cliffhanger'. I see it more as a wrecked choo-choo train because the plot ran out of tracks. A really, really sad way to end a sequel to one of the best RPGs ever made.

This is definitely the case here. It's clear that this game is a rampup to either an expansion, or several DLC that continue the story. I've gotta say, that with the revelation of Leliana being a Seeker at the end I was pretty shocked (I did not play her DLC since I'm not a fan and it didn't revolve around my Warden, so I'm unaware of any hints that were in this) and left wanting more.

I also play a mage.

Yes, Orsino turning to Blood Magic at the end was extremely irritating and disappointing. This is the same man who says "Blood magic! Where do you not see blood magic? My people cannot sneeze without you accusing them of corruption!" to Meredith earlier in the game. Thanks for justifying her beliefs. However, I can see how this was the game devs way of bringing home the point that Fenris and Anders mention so often: desperation (Anders) will lead mages to any excuse (Fenris) to head down that path. Even if their motives are pure, Blood Magic is the easy way out and a price is eventually paid. It's also easy to see how the Tevinter Imperium developed into what Fenris has explained. The strongest magisters are the ones who have the power, and if this is important to you, you'll use Blood Magic or be left on a lower rung of the power ladder. The same thing happens in non-mage societies; only they use subterfuge, money, poisons and various other treacheries to get power (see Cousland story in DAO). Why should it be expected that a society full of free mages would not evolve the same way?

As a mage-player myself (opposed to the use of Blood Magic), it's clear to me that the public have every reason to fear mages, and that it takes a very strong-willed person to resist the temptation. I really had no problem killing the various Blood Mages I came across. Letting some of them go either turned around to bite me in the ass (kidnapping of Carver), or they turned into Abominations during the fight.

The main point of contention I have with the game, from the viewpoint of a mage, is that while I understand the necessity of choosing sides in the climax, there is really no middle ground throughout most of the game. During all of that time you have Fenris ranting about the corruptability of mages, or Anders who thinks that they should all be allowed to roam free, blind to the immence hunger for power that some of them have (Uldred for example).

I think the main problem concerning mages is the existance of the Chantry (and it's counterparts in other societies) and their use of the Templars as their military arm to enforce Chantry laws, especially where magic is concerned. Their religious zealotry is what caused the problems in Kirkwall. If the Templars existed as an outside force that worked with the various Circles to contain rogue mages that kill people, or use Blood magic to control the minds of nobles (like we have police), it would be a different place.

In general though, I think that the Circle is important. Young mages need to be trained, associate with other mages, learn to control their own power, and taught the risks and dangers of consorting with demons and attempting Blood Magic. You can sort of choose dialogue options related to this line of thinking, but they are rare and not really fleshed out.

[Arrtis]

I liked fallout 3....
I did not like the DA2 story.

[Palando]

rumination888 wrote...
 Personally, I preferred Act 3 over Act 2(I also enjoyed DA2's ending), but thats because I don't need exposition to understand a situation, or the depth of a character.

But problems such as having mages accuse you of being a spy for Meredith in spite of the fact that you publically denounced her are not problems of exposition, they are problems of motivation and believability.

[rumination888]

Palando wrote...

rumination888 wrote...
 Personally, I preferred Act 3 over Act 2(I also enjoyed DA2's ending), but thats because I don't need exposition to understand a situation, or the depth of a character.

But problems such as having mages accuse you of being a spy for Meredith in spite of the fact that you publically denounced her are not problems of exposition, they are problems of motivation and believability.

Was that the quest Orsino gave you after you worked with Meredith right before?

[Darth Obvious]

Worst ending for any Bioware game ever made.

[Taleroth]

rumination888 wrote...

Palando wrote...

rumination888 wrote...
 Personally, I preferred Act 3 over Act 2(I also enjoyed DA2's ending), but thats because I don't need exposition to understand a situation, or the depth of a character.

But problems such as having mages accuse you of being a spy for Meredith in spite of the fact that you publically denounced her are not problems of exposition, they are problems of motivation and believability.

Was that the quest Orsino gave you after you worked with Meredith right before?

You mean the quest where I helped an innocent mage escape and everyone knows it despite my thin lies?

[nightscrawl]

Shathiell wrote...

With regards to the comment about Hawke missing "... along with the Warden", are they talking about Anders or the Warden Hero from DA:O? (As my warden followed Morrigan into the mirror, hence missing)

I was really confused about this also, especially given my DAO saved that I used.

* My DAO save has the Warden surviving, Alistair as King who is together with my Warden. In the cute cameo scene with Alistair when he and Teagan are heading out, Teagan mentions that the Hero of Ferelden should be back in Denerim by now, and Alistair responds that he is too "formal" referring to the title and that "she has a name, you know." This lead me to infer the more intimate relationship with the Hero of Ferelden as indicated by my DAO save that I loaded.

* I killed Anders in my second play. The first time around I spared him because he was romantically involved with me, and I liked Merrill's suggestion that he should help fix the damage he caused. The second time around I killed him. My motivation was that I was pissed that he (1) used me in his plot without telling me his plans, (2) he really has to be held responsible, even if his final words indicated that he thought himself a martyr, and (3) I agreed with Fenris: if Anders wanted to die that badly, I would provide him with that service.

So, sonsidering those two things in my plays, the "missing Warden" does not refer to MY Warden from DAO, nor does it refer to Anders. It could however, refer to my brother Carver, who I took on the Deep Roads expedition against my mother's wishes, was infected with the Blight and saved by some Wardens who happened to be down there, after some urging from Anders. Carver showed up to help me in the final battle after I resuced him from the kidnapping.

[Taiyama]

I...unfortunately have to mostly agree, OP. I don't want to, but I do. This really was a failing. I DO think DA2 was a good game but there stands to be definite improvement in this regard.

Modifié par Taiyama, 16 mars 2011 - 02:14 .