42 réponses à ce sujet

[JasonPogo]

Now I loved that Bioware was talking about adding family to this game and that it would play a big part.  However they again fell back on the lets kill em off to make you sad. 

First there is your brother/sister.  So one lives through the start of the game and gets to be a companion.  This is great untill the end of act one.  There they are taken away.  They can die, be a Grey Warden, Or leave for the Mages/Templar.  Why?  It was fun to have your sister or brother there with you as your partner in crime.  The thing that was fun this time around was that your companions felt like they were friend with each other as well as Hawke. So having your Brother.sister there with you was neat to as you Hawke had a preset friend kind of character there with you.

I have only played with Bethany so far and I had her join the Mages.  However this was so not in character for Hawke or the game.  You are friend with Anders a possesed freedom fighter who is at ods with the Templars the whole game.  You are friends with Merrill an open blood mage.  But the Templars game to take your sister away.  The one mage you knew who was just a mage and nothing more.  Then you as Hawke just let them take her.  This was so out of character.  I mean you kill half of Kirkwall to get some random NPCs away from the Templars in some side quests but you don't lift a finger for your sister.

This post is getting way to long winded so also the Mother thing just seemed like a slap in the face by Bioware.  Its like hay since you obviosly didn't get the point that magic can be bad we will make your mom a zombie so you have a personal conection to how bad magic is.  Everything else that ha happend so far could not have got this point across. 

The only saving grace was that Bethany comes back at the very end and you get a cute scene with her. Thanks for reading my rant if you got this far!

Modifié par JasonPogo, 15 mars 2011 - 09:05 .

[Maria Caliban]

In PnP RPGs, game masters love to kill off your family. Fantasy novels also love to kill off the family. It's a stock narrative device to give the hero a sad moment, something to brood over when you need a broody scene, and a sense of isolation when needed.

[Evil Asch]

Your family doesn't get wiped out in the fable series but there's faaar less involvement with them. And Fable 3 sucked anyway...

[Dangerfoot]

Technically your dad dies at the beginning of Fable, at the end your mom dies and then you may choose to kill your sister. Fable 2 you are an orphan and your sister is killed in front of you at the beginning, then your dog dies at the end. In Fable 3 a lot of close friends die and then you can choose to kill your brother at the end.

It's a little bit of a lazy writing technique, but it works and I think DA2 did it a lot better than DAO did.

[Keinu]

Was kinda annoyed that I couldn't fight off the templars coming for your sister.

[Enorats]

It likely goes back to the idea of the classical hero. A hero doesn't really become a hero until they're on their own. This generally means the elimination of the family and/or mentor in some way, shape, or form.. typically through a tragic event that results in their death(s) and helps to push the hero along their path.

[Dangerfoot]

scyphozoa wrote...

Yeah, I don't really care about the deaths, I was just surprised that Bioware devs specifically stated the idea of family in DA2 was that they would be alive and persistent throughout the game, rather than killing them at the start of the game. Yet, they keep them alive just to kill them later?

Well the point of killing off one of the twins was to force the other twin to want something outside of Hawke's shadow. Hence the reason they make a choice and go out on their own in Act 2. Your mother dying was probably just to make your struggle with blood magic more personal. Now you know what blood magic can do to people, how you handle it from there defines you.

[Dave of Canada]

You still have Gamlen!

[TheRevanchist]

Hey now...theres some really good stories out there that don't involve the death of the mentor/ family. The Belgariad is one such example...only one person dies at the end and they aren't related to the hero in either such way really.

[Shepard Lives]

Dave of Canada wrote...

You still have Gamlen!

Gamlen's not so bad. I really liked his rant at Leandra in Act 1 and his quest with Charade. Sure, he's a scumbag, but he's very well written.

[Kingofdragoons]

Really the only part out of the whole family thing that I thought was just down right terrible was killing off one of your siblings in the first thirty minutes of the game. As a player you have no person connection to any of the characters at this point, infact all you've seen is your family argue. Its just bad story telling... if they wanted to do that they should have given you as a player more time to get to know your siblings.

On the subject of one of your siblings to be taken away though, Im fine with it... its a plot device and not the worst, though easily seen coming a mile away when your Mother talks to you before the expedition into the deep roads. When it comes down to your mother dieing in such a horrible fashion I gotta say it actually made me sad as a player cause I had grown to like that character and after she was dead the estate felt very empty.

In all besides the beginning I think the family aspect was a good addition to the game. Gave your Hawke personal motivations that just wouldnt be justifiable otherwise.

[AtreiyaN7]

Also, your sibling leaving you gives them a chance to mature and for you to reconcile at the end. It did with me and Carver. He was always jealous of being in my femHawke's shadow and made his discontent clear all along. I even went angry-mode with him at one point because he ticked me off, but after joining the Wardens, he finally shaped up and came to grips with things. I was happy to see him at the end and have his support. He showed that he had finally grown up at the end in my opinion.

[Invalidcode]

At least they ain't all dead before you even step on the boat.

Not too bad...
Mother lasted half a game.
Brother/Sister, you get to fight with them, and show up later in game when you really need them.
Uncle, an ass but hey he is alive and still family.
Surprise! Cousin!

[JamesX]

Keinu wrote...

Was kinda annoyed that I couldn't fight off the templars coming for your sister.

In my play through Bethany wanted to goto the Circle.  She is tired of running.  It wasn't the Templars forcing her to go.  At least that is what I remember. 

[StowyMcStowstow]

I don't know. All I know is that I was really pissed when I couldn't save Carver on my first playthrough, then even more pissed when I learned that I could, and that he would still be in a playable character later in the game.

I thought the extermination of your family overkill, and silly.

[Icy Magebane]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Because that is part of DA2's message. Good people die. Your friends betray you. Powerful people go insane. Life still has to go on.

I like it that this game is not an Utopian fantasy for people to escape to. It makes you value your own life, family, and friends more.

LOL.  No.  I don't need a video game to teach me anything.  Those are lessons you learn every day, and games are a way (for me at least) to escape from the harshness of reality.  Personally, I don't like preachy games or preachy people, so if this is what Bioware has in store for the future, then they won't be getting any more money from me.  As it stands, I plan to buy ME3, and that's all.  Dragon Age was never that great to begin with, and this game's "lessons" are just poorly executed, hack writing.  You really think the only way to tell a good story is to constanly screw over the protagonist?  That the best writing is a bunch of overly dramatic crap with unrealisitic, shock-value situations?  Give me a break!  Since when does being a "Champion" mean you're some impovershed noble with no influence?

This game didn't say anything that I didn't already know.  And it didn't make me question anything except the wisdom of buying future titles from this company.

[Evil Asch]

kylecouch wrote...

Hey now...theres some really good stories out there that don't involve the death of the mentor/ family. The Belgariad is one such example...only one person dies at the end and they aren't related to the hero in either such way really.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but imo that entire series is AWFUL. The series just badly recycles the first trilogy constantly and the first trilogy just isn't that good. If you'd like good modern fantasy try Tad Williams (Memory, Sorrow & Thorn or the Shadowmarch series) or George R.R. Martin (Song of Ice and Fire series). Note in Song of Ice and Fire no character is really safe from death, even important POV characters.

And the other poster referring to Fable is correct but the third Fable game really did suck and there was little if any emotional connection to your sibling in Fable 3 'cause he loses it on you from the get-go so you never get a chance to bond.

[Raygereio]

It's the same technique a lot or writers use; give the protagonist family or close friends and then yanking them away (bonus point if said yanking is done in a gruesome manner) to make the protagonist suffer loss/drama or make him/her harder as a character.

This technique sometimes works well with all elements falling neatly into place and sometimes it doens't really work like in DA2:
The first sibling to kick the proverbial bucket is just some faceless entity you're introduced to barely 2 minutes before his/her demise and about who nothing is established making it impossible to care about what happened.

The second sibling contracts the blight for no real discernable reason whatsoever. Yeah, yeah; fighting darkspawn is supposed to be dangerous because you can get infected with the taint. But why wasn't anyone else infected? A similar gameplay/story segregation was in Origins with your party, but there it could be ignored because no attention was drawn to it. When you have inconsistensies in your story, the last thing one should do is put a big spotlight on it.
Maybe the second sibling leaving if you don't take him/her with you into the deeproads will make more sense, I haven't played that yet. But I somehow doubt it. And naturally the annoyance of the loss of gameplay elements the sibling-companion represents can easily overshadow anything else that's going on.

And then there's mommy Hawke; I'll admit that her death does have some manner of impact, though the particular nature in which it is done makes it almost silly instead of tragic. But here offcourse the annoyance can arise that in the quest-line leading up to that moment you're given several option on how to handle things and each and every single choice is utterly meaningless.

[Invalidcode]

JamesX wrote...

Keinu wrote...

Was kinda annoyed that I couldn't fight off the templars coming for your sister.

In my play through Bethany wanted to goto the Circle.  She is tired of running.  It wasn't the Templars forcing her to go.  At least that is what I remember. 

For me it was like templars found out and she have to go the circle. By the time Hawke comes it was too late, instead of a freaking bloodbath with the templar she was willing to give herself up.

I was disappointed I didn't even have the option to oppose.

Templar: She's coming with us.
Hawke: Over my dead body! (actual in game line)

And it's done...no fight...no nothing...

[Vilegrim]

ashthehorrorfan wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Hey now...theres some really good stories out there that don't involve the death of the mentor/ family. The Belgariad is one such example...only one person dies at the end and they aren't related to the hero in either such way really.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but imo that entire series is AWFUL. The series just badly recycles the first trilogy constantly and the first trilogy just isn't that good. If you'd like good modern fantasy try Tad Williams (Memory, Sorrow & Thorn or the Shadowmarch series) or George R.R. Martin (Song of Ice and Fire series). Note in Song of Ice and Fire no character is really safe from death, even important POV characters.

And the other poster referring to Fable is correct but the third Fable game really did suck and there was little if any emotional connection to your sibling in Fable 3 'cause he loses it on you from the get-go so you never get a chance to bond.

Tad Williams?! Good?! Terrible more like.  Try Steven Erikson, if you want characters who get broken again and agaiin, at least some of his earn there happy endings (or allow others to get theres). 

Song of Ice and Fire however is great.

[TheRevanchist]

ashthehorrorfan wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Hey now...theres some really good stories out there that don't involve the death of the mentor/ family. The Belgariad is one such example...only one person dies at the end and they aren't related to the hero in either such way really.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but imo that entire series is AWFUL. The series just badly recycles the first trilogy constantly and the first trilogy just isn't that good. If you'd like good modern fantasy try Tad Williams (Memory, Sorrow & Thorn or the Shadowmarch series) or George R.R. Martin (Song of Ice and Fire series). Note in Song of Ice and Fire no character is really safe from death, even important POV characters.

And the other poster referring to Fable is correct but the third Fable game really did suck and there was little if any emotional connection to your sibling in Fable 3 'cause he loses it on you from the get-go so you never get a chance to bond.

Eh...I personaly thought that series was the best story I ever experienced to this day. I also thought Fable 3 was a fantastic game...I still think Fable TLC is the best of them all but Fable 3 is a close second imo. But like you said...everyone is entitled to opinion.

[Evil Asch]

Vilegrim wrote...

ashthehorrorfan wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Hey now...theres some really good stories out there that don't involve the death of the mentor/ family. The Belgariad is one such example...only one person dies at the end and they aren't related to the hero in either such way really.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but imo that entire series is AWFUL. The series just badly recycles the first trilogy constantly and the first trilogy just isn't that good. If you'd like good modern fantasy try Tad Williams (Memory, Sorrow & Thorn or the Shadowmarch series) or George R.R. Martin (Song of Ice and Fire series). Note in Song of Ice and Fire no character is really safe from death, even important POV characters.

And the other poster referring to Fable is correct but the third Fable game really did suck and there was little if any emotional connection to your sibling in Fable 3 'cause he loses it on you from the get-go so you never get a chance to bond.

Tad Williams?! Good?! Terrible more like.  Try Steven Erikson, if you want characters who get broken again and agaiin, at least some of his earn there happy endings (or allow others to get theres). 

Song of Ice and Fire however is great.

I haven't finished the Shadowmarch series so I can't comment on that  aside from the first book (which appears to be a somewhat thorough homage to  SIF) and I read Memory, Sorrow and Thorn about a decade ago but I loved the twist and realism of the ending. I'm almost finished with the third SIF book

I haven't heard of Erikson, can you recommend a title?

[Evil Asch]

kylecouch wrote...

ashthehorrorfan wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Hey now...theres some really good stories out there that don't involve the death of the mentor/ family. The Belgariad is one such example...only one person dies at the end and they aren't related to the hero in either such way really.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but imo that entire series is AWFUL. The series just badly recycles the first trilogy constantly and the first trilogy just isn't that good. If you'd like good modern fantasy try Tad Williams (Memory, Sorrow & Thorn or the Shadowmarch series) or George R.R. Martin (Song of Ice and Fire series). Note in Song of Ice and Fire no character is really safe from death, even important POV characters.

And the other poster referring to Fable is correct but the third Fable game really did suck and there was little if any emotional connection to your sibling in Fable 3 'cause he loses it on you from the get-go so you never get a chance to bond.

Eh...I personaly thought that series was the best story I ever experienced to this day. I also thought Fable 3 was a fantastic game...I still think Fable TLC is the best of them all but Fable 3 is a close second imo. But like you said...everyone is entitled to opinion.

I loved the first game, appreciated the second, despise the third. Unless they come out with some amazing DLCs/additional content I've lost all interest in it. Peter Molynieux owes me $60 (should be more 'cause I got the uber edition but I'll let it slide)