42 réponses à ce sujet

[flakmeister_mcg]

The idea of telling a personal story with Hawke as the protagonist and his/hers dedication to the family in a world of turmoil and upheaval is a good one on paper. I'm not sure if that's the story the game tries to tell, or any story for that matter.At any rate, even if it were the case, the execution was less than stellar to put it euphemistically.

The way the story starts is all wrong. Not only are we put into it in medias res, but within 5 minutes of booting up two members of the family are dead, The dad we never got to meet and the sibling has 3 lines of dialogue before being killed off. As a player I suffer an immediate disconnect. There's no hook for me as a player in this. My family are a bunch of people who bemoan their lot in life, and who I am supposed to like only by virtue of them being my family.

Bethany is a blank slate with no traits besides being naïve and innocent. Carver is a horrible muppet with an attitude that only makes you want to feed him to the 'Spawn. Leandra is a prop with the tag "Mom" attached, again lacking any defining characteristics, besides constantly reminding you of how much life sucks and being a convenient lamb for the slaughter in a scene so stupid it beggars belief.

I don't like or care about any of these people and they're supposed to be my character's driving focus?

The killing off of Leandra is so exploitative and hamfisted that I felt as though the writers were mocking me. I was disgusted by how they went out of their way to have her demise be both macabre and grotesque, but also bewildered by how poorly the scene was handled to the point where I didn't know whether to laugh or shake my proverbial head.

[R-F]

ashthehorrorfan wrote...

Your family doesn't get wiped out in the fable series but there's faaar less involvement with them. And Fable 3 sucked anyway...

DId you play fable II, or fable I for that matter? I'm not sure about 3 because the second game was too god awful to warrant a third installment but the first two games had family murder. Plus you were an orphan in the second so losing your sister/brother was doubly worse.

Killing off family members like someone else said is a way to make you care about the protagonist. Look at every good Disney movie, families die off all the time.

Bioware handled it well in DA2 though. Watching Hawke hold his mother was a gut wrenching moment if I ever saw one.

[jfp2004]

JasonPogo wrote...

First there is your brother/sister.  So one lives through the start of the game and gets to be a companion.  This is great untill the end of act one.  There they are taken away.  They can die, be a Grey Warden, Or leave for the Mages/Templar.  Why?  It was fun to have your sister or brother there with you as your partner in crime.  The thing that was fun this time around was that your companions felt like they were friend with each other as well as Hawke. So having your Brother.sister there with you was neat to as you Hawke had a preset friend kind of character there with you.

This is one of the things that did bother me. I was really looking forward to the whole sibling dynamic. I know a lot of people didn't like either, but I enjoyed playing with both Bethany and Carver because it's a different experience and a different dynamic. But since they disappear from your party at the end of Act 1 regardless of what route you take, it sort of cut that short. I really wish they could have been in the party longer. Having the dynamic of at least one person that knows Hawke from the past in the party was kind of nice, to be honest. Or at the very least, give us a chance to get them back earlier than we do. Having them disappear for awhile is fine but they disappear for almost the entirety of the game except for a few cameos and at the end, depending on the choices you take.

[Dangerfoot]

ashthehorrorfan wrote...

I loved the first game, appreciated the second, despise the third. Unless they come out with some amazing DLCs/additional content I've lost all interest in it. Peter Molynieux owes me $60 (should be more 'cause I got the uber edition but I'll let it slide)

Peter Molnieux is a master in the art of telling his fans exactly what they want to hear, failing to deliver and still managing to fool those fans again next game.

That said, I found the gameplay in 3 to be far superior to 2. Although TLC is still the classic of the three.

[IverseaKnight]

OP mentions Anders and Merrill in the complaint about Bethany's becoming a Circle mage... yeah, Merrill shouldn't get away with wandering around like she does but Anders has a large degree of protection from Templars coming after him because he's a Grey Warden (however much he's estranged himself from the order).

[Taleroth]

"And once again, Probability proves itself willing to sneak into a back alley and service Drama as would a copper piece harlot."

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 mars 2011 - 02:18 .

[Lady_Sohvid]

The only one I was slightly irritated with was the death of Hawke's mother. Now I realize that magic does things quickly but there was still "Fresh" blood on the ground, how in the world did the crazy necrophiliac manage to get that entire body together sewed up [I saw the stitch marks damnit] within the time Hawke goes after his/her mother? Frustrating...I understand it's all apart of the making of a hero thing but COME ON. SHE WAS A HEALER IN MY GAME I CAN RESURRECT PEOPLE. I call shenanigans.

[IverseaKnight]

Yeah, while the killer can be presumed to have had the rest of the body ready and just needing a head, I agree getting Leandra's head on there and animated was a bit rushed. Healers, however, cannot resurrect. They can only revive the mostly dead. With the all-dead, they have only the same option as Inigo and Fezzig... go through the pockets and look for loose change.

[Talya]

I understand the concept of building a hero out of tragedy, but why always follow the same formula? Why not do something different, like allow the family to live and the everyday circumstances around Hawke to build the character? . It wasn't like there was a shortage of templar/mage issues going on to not affect Hawke. The dynamic was already there, it comes from the fact that Hawke is already personally invested because Bethany is an apostate.

It's not necessary to rip everything away from a character to rebuild them. Losing their mother to a mage was horrible enough, but I don't think it would have been necessary to remove Bethany/Carver as a companion to build Hawke as a hero. I get the reason why, I just don't think it was necessary.The elements are already there to make a hero, the characters personality, personal experience, and outside influences.

IMHO I think there was some great potential for giving Hawke more dimension by keeping the sibling as a companion. I also think they needed the same ability as in DA:O with the dialogue between the hero and the companions. I loved the fact you could talk so much with your companions in DA:O, it helped to connect and understand them so much better.

Kudos to bioware though for making me fret about that sibling. The first play through I had Bethany remain behind and I had to admit I worried the entire time that they were going to do something to her as well and then Hawke would have no family left. I'm glad she at least was able to return for the last Act. I am disappointed that she couldn't stay the entire time as she would have been a constant member of my party.

But if there is a chance that either Hawke or the Warden return for DA 3, I would love to see Bethany/Carver return at least in a cameo if not a companion.

[awwnuts07]

I was disappointed that contact was completely cut-off from Bethany after she was taken by the templars. Since family was one of the themes of the game, I thought the relationship with your sibling was going to be further developed. I can understand not getting quests, but I thought there would at least be some conversations.

[Talya]

I agree, I was disappointed in that fact as well. I think that they could have easily left Bethany through the entire story line and added some depth to the sister relationship. I enjoyed the ability to converse with your companions much more in DA:O, it was easier to get to build a relationship with them than it has been with their latest game releases.

[EDarkness]

Maria Caliban wrote...

In PnP RPGs, game masters love to kill off your family. Fantasy novels also love to kill off the family. It's a stock narrative device to give the hero a sad moment, something to brood over when you need a broody scene, and a sense of isolation when needed.

As a DM, I very rarely killed off family.  It's such a cliche plot device that I avoid it if ever possible.  Even in stories I write I very rarely do it. It annoys me in this game how all of the family members get screwed in some way.  There is no way to even save his mother, either.  I wasn't really happy with the situation.

[SmokeyTheBear]

I liked the way they did it.

If you conversed with Bethany, she said she hated herself for making the family run all the time, due to her magic. That's why she GAVE herself up to the templars, they didn't find her out.

And Gamlen was a good guy. After Leandra dies, the cutscene with him in your house really gave depth to him, along with the visit to him in Act 3. He may get drunk and burn a hole in his pocket, but he was a good character and a good person.

Also, Carver is the Alistair of this game. A follower by heart, an idiot, and a warrior.

[Caladors]

EDarkness wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

In PnP RPGs, game masters love to kill off your family. Fantasy novels also love to kill off the family. It's a stock narrative device to give the hero a sad moment, something to brood over when you need a broody scene, and a sense of isolation when needed.

As a DM, I very rarely killed off family.  It's such a cliche plot device that I avoid it if ever possible.  Even in stories I write I very rarely do it. It annoys me in this game how all of the family members get screwed in some way.  There is no way to even save his mother, either.  I wasn't really happy with the situation.

 
I am two minds about this.
Wile there is a trope dead little sister that TvTropes loves to show the great lack of depth that many industries follow.
There is a few reasons for it.
It works quite well as short hand.

“Why is he such a douche?”
“His little sister died.”
“Ohhh, I didn't know I am sorry.”

What I find as cop outs is two things.
One that it doesn't matter how much you get Carver onside he will always leave for the Templars.
That could be alright if you have gotten your rep up with him and he comes at you with.
“I need to do something for myself I don't want to be living in your shadow and I can change things from inside.”
Then you would be well I guess it couldn't be helped but at least his doing it for himself.

The second thing Bethany's death from plot disease.
See if your a mage, you may not be anywhere near combat.
Despite this she still manages to get killed by plot disease.
No it's not the blight, blight needs to be in your blood she was at the very least three meters away.

That being said the grieving you have with Merriel maybe one of the most touching moments in gaming ever.
Wile mum was dieing I was just so angry because there is no way to stop it.
But the grieving seemed so real.
He is just... there and she gone.
For people whom have lost people they loved I am sure they can relate to this.

Now onto the GM thing.
Quotes have to be up top...
THAT IS BAD GAME MASTERING.
Erhm.
I am sorry, but it really is.
I have had many players who have had families in game and they don't fear there death unless a real life person would.
For example the only times they have felt that there family is in danger is when dealing with criminals and extremists who would go after them.
Not militaries or governments there working against.

All that is being lazy.
I have had a desperate organization kidnap a family because they need these people.
But everyone knew everyone else.
A rift divided the faction they were working for.
These people will kill for causes what use is threatening them with death family on the other hand.
But in all my years of gaming I have done that once.
Honestly don't be lazy.

[Hunter Stenwulf]

flakmeister_mcg wrote...

The idea of telling a personal story with Hawke as the protagonist and his/hers dedication to the family in a world of turmoil and upheaval is a good one on paper. I'm not sure if that's the story the game tries to tell, or any story for that matter.At any rate, even if it were the case, the execution was less than stellar to put it euphemistically.

The way the story starts is all wrong. Not only are we put into it in medias res, but within 5 minutes of booting up two members of the family are dead, The dad we never got to meet and the sibling has 3 lines of dialogue before being killed off. As a player I suffer an immediate disconnect. There's no hook for me as a player in this. My family are a bunch of people who bemoan their lot in life, and who I am supposed to like only by virtue of them being my family.

Bethany is a blank slate with no traits besides being naïve and innocent. Carver is a horrible muppet with an attitude that only makes you want to feed him to the 'Spawn. Leandra is a prop with the tag "Mom" attached, again lacking any defining characteristics, besides constantly reminding you of how much life sucks and being a convenient lamb for the slaughter in a scene so stupid it beggars belief.

I don't like or care about any of these people and they're supposed to be my character's driving focus?

The killing off of Leandra is so exploitative and hamfisted that I felt as though the writers were mocking me. I was disgusted by how they went out of their way to have her demise be both macabre and grotesque, but also bewildered by how poorly the scene was handled to the point where I didn't know whether to laugh or shake my proverbial head.

I agree with everything you said.

[AlexXIV]

Thing is you try to improve your family's situation in the whole game. And whenever you get one step forward you get thrown back 2. You gather this money to get into hightown but right at the point you move in your sister is taken to the circle or your brother joins the templars. Unless they are dead or grey wardens. And on top you get a quest called 'All that remains' which is a streamlined mom killer. Of course, considering how poorly the main quest is written you'd assume they tried to do at least anything to get to the player. But that's still poor.

I mean it's a game. And you play a hero. You don't want to end it feeling like the worst thing that ever happened was comming to Kirkwall. Well not to mention it's the Cousland story. Remember when you had to flee and left your mom behind for no good reason? Yeah that. Annoyed me then, and they do it again. I mean that's really creative. I'd bet money same thing happens in the next. I mean what can they do? They know no other way.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 mars 2011 - 03:43 .

[juhnni]

Would have been great if brother and sister survived. After deeps roads 1 leaves for circle and other joins templars. Would have made the choice to side with 1 or the other a little tougher to make.

[jfp2004]

It's a shame there's three possible outcomes for their fate. At the most, they'll likely only be cameos in future games, even if Hawke is the protagonist.