Questa discussione ha avuto 426 risposte

[Sarah1281]

No, QUENTIN is responsible for Leandra's death. Orsino enabled him, true, and that sucks. He's still less culpable than the actual killer.

[Dragonette29]

Link3521 wrote...

How can people even like him? He's responsible for your mother's death, t'was a pity I couldn't bring him back as undead and kill him again.........and then rinse and repeat a couple of times........

He is NOT responsible for Leandra's death. Yes, he did hide the killer (imagine yourself in his situation) and he did back his research to an extent , but it was Quentin who did it. I dare say that Hawke's mother being chosen was a coincindence. Orsino even says that he thought the research was to dangerous at some point.

[MasterSamson88]

Dragonette29 wrote...

Link3521 wrote...

How can people even like him? He's responsible for your mother's death, t'was a pity I couldn't bring him back as undead and kill him again.........and then rinse and repeat a couple of times........

He is NOT responsible for Leandra's death. Yes, he did hide the killer (imagine yourself in his situation) and he did back his research to an extent , but it was Quentin who did it. I dare say that Hawke's mother being chosen was a coincindence. Orsino even says that he thought the research was to dangerous at some point.

He might have not even expected him to do what he did.

Might I remind you that all the best serial killers really are the ones everyone least expects. 

[Dragonette29]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Dragonette29 wrote...

Link3521 wrote...

How can people even like him? He's responsible for your mother's death, t'was a pity I couldn't bring him back as undead and kill him again.........and then rinse and repeat a couple of times........

He is NOT responsible for Leandra's death. Yes, he did hide the killer (imagine yourself in his situation) and he did back his research to an extent , but it was Quentin who did it. I dare say that Hawke's mother being chosen was a coincindence. Orsino even says that he thought the research was to dangerous at some point.

He might have not even expected him to do what he did.

Might I remind you that all the best serial killers really are the ones everyone least expects. 

That's possible, too. Also, necromancy does not necessarily require killing, no?

[MasterSamson88]

Dragonette29 wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Dragonette29 wrote...

Link3521 wrote...

How can people even like him? He's responsible for your mother's death, t'was a pity I couldn't bring him back as undead and kill him again.........and then rinse and repeat a couple of times........

He is NOT responsible for Leandra's death. Yes, he did hide the killer (imagine yourself in his situation) and he did back his research to an extent , but it was Quentin who did it. I dare say that Hawke's mother being chosen was a coincindence. Orsino even says that he thought the research was to dangerous at some point.

He might have not even expected him to do what he did.

Might I remind you that all the best serial killers really are the ones everyone least expects. 

That's possible, too. Also, necromancy does not necessarily require killing, no?

No, but it does require a fair bit of digging up graves. At least by Elder Scrolls standards. 

As far as we know Quentin could have been the guy at the meetings that Orsino thought was really quite and kind of weird. Yet at the same time a pretty smart individual with his faults. He probably never expected until he finally flipped out that he'd actually murder people.

[Dragonette29]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Dragonette29 wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Dragonette29 wrote...

Link3521 wrote...

How can people even like him? He's responsible for your mother's death, t'was a pity I couldn't bring him back as undead and kill him again.........and then rinse and repeat a couple of times........

He is NOT responsible for Leandra's death. Yes, he did hide the killer (imagine yourself in his situation) and he did back his research to an extent , but it was Quentin who did it. I dare say that Hawke's mother being chosen was a coincindence. Orsino even says that he thought the research was to dangerous at some point.

He might have not even expected him to do what he did.

Might I remind you that all the best serial killers really are the ones everyone least expects. 

That's possible, too. Also, necromancy does not necessarily require killing, no?

No, but it does require a fair bit of digging up graves. At least by Elder Scrolls standards. 

As far as we know Quentin could have been the guy at the meetings that Orsino thought was really quite and kind of weird. Yet at the same time a pretty smart individual with his faults. He probably never expected until he finally flipped out that he'd actually murder people.

By Elder Scrolls standards all necromancers are evil and they attack you on sight.
And I wanted to be one of them...

[Esoj16]

He actually admits to knowing that Quentin was killing women but he says he hid him because he didn't want to give more ammo to Meredith....what a pathetic excuse for an elf (?) being, if he had owned up to the monster he helped create your mother might have been alive, it's pathetic some people actually try to make up excuses for him.....He could've prevented it all but his own cowardice led to your mother's death, he's just as responsible as Quentin and don't try making up excuses for him.

[Sarah1281]

It's not making excuses for him. It's thinking that enabling Quentin, while still a horrible thing to do, is not quite as bad as actually killing the women. And do you really feel that good would have come from letting Meredith know that there is yet another example of a mage out of templar control who is out of control and who is, in fact, a dangerous serial killer? I think he should have taken Quentin down independently of the templars if he could but surely you can at least agree that Meredith would have done a great deal of damage with that information.

[Mr.House]

Sarah1281 wrote...

No, QUENTIN is responsible for Leandra's death. Orsino enabled him, true, and that sucks. He's still less culpable than the actual killer.

They both are. Quentin might have done it but Orsino knew and could have sopped him, but instead he supplied him. Both are to blame for what happen, in diffrent ways.

[Esoj16]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It's not making excuses for him. It's thinking that enabling Quentin, while still a horrible thing to do, is not quite as bad as actually killing the women. And do you really feel that good would have come from letting Meredith know that there is yet another example of a mage out of templar control who is out of control and who is, in fact, a dangerous serial killer? I think he should have taken Quentin down independently of the templars if he could but surely you can at least agree that Meredith would have done a great deal of damage with that information.

You do realize that Orsino didn't just hide Quentin from justice right? Orsino supplied him with the knowledge Quentin needed to carry out his "experiments" and even learned from them himself, that's how he knows how to turn into a harvester, he says so himself, and Meredith would've at least brought justice to that murderer, she was crazy about mages to begin with so why not make her righteousness useful by sending her after that killer, I will never understand how you people can actually defend Orsino's actions.

[GunClubGirl]

I thought what a sensible, reasonable guy he was. And then the end happened!

[casedawgz]

Oh man, never made the Quentin connection. My templar playthrough just got a little easier.

[Dragonette29]

 Here goes our first AMAZING piece of fan art! 

Credit goes to Milulya on deviantART

!!! CLICK HERE to see more of her work !!!

Modificata da Dragonette29, 16 marzo 2011 - 08:38 .

[MasterSamson88]

Wow that's really good!

[Malja]

Mmm aged elf goodness~ Never thought I'd say that. Nice work, really.

[Dragonette29]

Link3521 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

It's not making excuses for him. It's thinking that enabling Quentin, while still a horrible thing to do, is not quite as bad as actually killing the women. And do you really feel that good would have come from letting Meredith know that there is yet another example of a mage out of templar control who is out of control and who is, in fact, a dangerous serial killer? I think he should have taken Quentin down independently of the templars if he could but surely you can at least agree that Meredith would have done a great deal of damage with that information.

You do realize that Orsino didn't just hide Quentin from justice right? Orsino supplied him with the knowledge Quentin needed to carry out his "experiments" and even learned from them himself, that's how he knows how to turn into a harvester, he says so himself, and Meredith would've at least brought justice to that murderer, she was crazy about mages to begin with so why not make her righteousness useful by sending her after that killer, I will never understand how you people can actually defend Orsino's actions.

We already gave our counter arguments, if you read closely.
Also, since Quentin was already conducting the experiments, why would it not be right for him to learn from them himself? There's nothing wrong with knowledge and, seeing the mages' dire situation, it could be beneficial.
Think like a mage/scientist
I stand by my opinion.

Anyway...

Modificata da Dragonette29, 16 marzo 2011 - 09:08 .

[Lauretha_L]

Ok, being very pro the First Enchanter myself, I am going to be lazy and quote my own post from a different topic here:

I also suspected Orsino beforehand of being "O."(...) And, anyway, one thing is having a scientific interest in research, another altogether of doing it yourself -- I believe Orsino didn't have to necessarily know the gory details (the mass-murderer of innocents part), he merely provided literature on necromancy and wanted to hear about the results. The latter may have been his attempt at controlling the situation, as we know he feared actually asking templar help in anything because it would give Meredith more ammunition against mages. And that's a fact, not only something he states in the last dialogue if you side with the templars (though he does) - he has you investigating how desperate his mages are because he is afraid to ask templars to perform their duty.
Anyways, he may have known the details on Quentin or he may have not known but, arguably, either makes him a better person than Anders in the end -- because he did read the research material (and pronounced it "evil" and didn't touch it right until the final straw) but he didn't kill anybody to get what could have been a last resort evil-y advantage over the templars. Sounds familiar? Plus, if he has learned it at some point and wanted to act against it without the templars knowing -- and didn't have your confidence, as he had some years later -- how would you propose he proceeded? Remember, keeping it a secret from Meridith was a necessity, in his opinion (we may argue this point but I think he was, over all, right here).
Anyway, even if we agreed on Orsino being evil there is no evidence in the game of him being an idiot or a weak man - quite to the contrary. So, while I could see the templar ending as actually happening, the ending stops having *any* sense if you side with mages. Mr Gaider answered elsewhere on the forums that not seeing any not-bat*** crazy mages around doing the final battle was due to engine limitation ("we could only get that many people in a scene"), and we can assume that they just didn't have time/didn't think it worthwile to put more good/neutral mages in the game (there are a few -- even one of the Starkhaven mages manages to run away, not turn bad, write to you with thanks and propose doing some quests for her friends -- and the disgrace templar quest has been so far my *favourite* in the entire game!). None of that explains why you have to fight through waves of mages and abominations -- but even if you say "they were pushed to the edge and cracked" that does not, in any way, explain what Orsino does! Nor the moment he does it! I agree with what other people said - there were hundreds better ways to handle that scene.
(...)I felt both characters - Orsino and Meredith - were cheapened in the end and I would much prefer it if the causes of their respectives craziness remained much more ordinary -- you don't need almighty evil artefacts from the past to make people go mad fanatics and start burning witches; look at the real life religions if you need any evidence. And if the devs wanted to show Orsino as evil it could have been done much more better to show him as doing something similar to, figuratively speaking, Anders. Though not along the same lines that would be repetitive.

Btw, am I the only one who wondered in game whether Quentin was named this way as a tribute (...sort of xD) to the brilliant madness of Mr. Tarantino? ^^"

And, to add to this some more (because I do like the First Enchanter) -- I wouldn't mind Orsino being evil. Make him a lying, backstabbing manipulating bastard all you want - it would be even more epic, since I do believe he shouldn't have the higher moral ground over Meridith, storywise. But don't make him a weak willed idiot! Because that just goes against all the character developement (and we had very little of it as it was) there was up to that point! Why turn himself into a monster, or using blood magic until he is out of mana and has no other option? Why?

[Dragonette29]

Kelenthial wrote...

Ok, being very pro the First Enchanter myself, I am going to be lazy and quote my own post from a different topic here:

I also suspected Orsino beforehand of being "O."(...) And, anyway, one thing is having a scientific interest in research, another altogether of doing it yourself -- I believe Orsino didn't have to necessarily know the gory details (the mass-murderer of innocents part), he merely provided literature on necromancy and wanted to hear about the results. The latter may have been his attempt at controlling the situation, as we know he feared actually asking templar help in anything because it would give Meredith more ammunition against mages. And that's a fact, not only something he states in the last dialogue if you side with the templars (though he does) - he has you investigating how desperate his mages are because he is afraid to ask templars to perform their duty.
Anyways, he may have known the details on Quentin or he may have not known but, arguably, either makes him a better person than Anders in the end -- because he did read the research material (and pronounced it "evil" and didn't touch it right until the final straw) but he didn't kill anybody to get what could have been a last resort evil-y advantage over the templars. Sounds familiar? Plus, if he has learned it at some point and wanted to act against it without the templars knowing -- and didn't have your confidence, as he had some years later -- how would you propose he proceeded? Remember, keeping it a secret from Meridith was a necessity, in his opinion (we may argue this point but I think he was, over all, right here).
Anyway, even if we agreed on Orsino being evil there is no evidence in the game of him being an idiot or a weak man - quite to the contrary. So, while I could see the templar ending as actually happening, the ending stops having *any* sense if you side with mages. Mr Gaider answered elsewhere on the forums that not seeing any not-bat*** crazy mages around doing the final battle was due to engine limitation ("we could only get that many people in a scene"), and we can assume that they just didn't have time/didn't think it worthwile to put more good/neutral mages in the game (there are a few -- even one of the Starkhaven mages manages to run away, not turn bad, write to you with thanks and propose doing some quests for her friends -- and the disgrace templar quest has been so far my *favourite* in the entire game!). None of that explains why you have to fight through waves of mages and abominations -- but even if you say "they were pushed to the edge and cracked" that does not, in any way, explain what Orsino does! Nor the moment he does it! I agree with what other people said - there were hundreds better ways to handle that scene.
(...)I felt both characters - Orsino and Meredith - were cheapened in the end and I would much prefer it if the causes of their respectives craziness remained much more ordinary -- you don't need almighty evil artefacts from the past to make people go mad fanatics and start burning witches; look at the real life religions if you need any evidence. And if the devs wanted to show Orsino as evil it could have been done much more better to show him as doing something similar to, figuratively speaking, Anders. Though not along the same lines that would be repetitive.

Btw, am I the only one who wondered in game whether Quentin was named this way as a tribute (...sort of xD) to the brilliant madness of Mr. Tarantino? ^^"

And, to add to this some more (because I do like the First Enchanter) -- I wouldn't mind Orsino being evil. Make him a lying, backstabbing manipulating bastard all you want - it would be even more epic, since I do believe he shouldn't have the higher moral ground over Meridith, storywise. But don't make him a weak willed idiot! Because that just goes against all the character developement (and we had very little of it as it was) there was up to that point! Why turn himself into a monster, or using blood magic until he is out of mana and has no other option? Why?

Wonderfully put, Kelenthial . Every anti-Orsino should read this. Can I put it in the original post?

Like you, i wouldn't at all mind Orsino being an evil mastermind. What the writers made him do was not this- it was retarded. For many people, me included, evil and 'evil' characters have a huge appeal. Take Mass Effect's Saren Arterius, for example.

Oh, and I did wonder about quentin There are easter eggs in this game, i wouldn't be surprised if this was a little -and fitting- tribute. 
Did you spot the ring Three Wolf Boon, hehe?

[Nemo66]

Yup, I absolutely adored him.
That bit when he provides the distraction with the qunari? My fan-girl senses went into major meltdown mode ^^
And I love the artwork by the way!

[Lauretha_L]

Dragonette29 wrote... Can I put it in the original post?

Sure, if you wish .
I did, but The Mask reference cracked me more "It wasn't me, it was the one-armed man!"

[Dragonette29]

Nemo66 wrote...

Yup, I absolutely adored him.
That bit when he provides the distraction with the qunari? My fan-girl senses went into major meltdown mode ^^
And I love the artwork by the way!

That scene was so hot it nearly made me meld with my chair 
I keep a save especially for it... This and Meredith's frown of disapproval when you make him the leader.

[Dragonette29]

Kelenthial wrote...

Dragonette29 wrote... Can I put it in the original post?

Sure, if you wish .
I did, but The Mask reference cracked me more "It wasn't me, it was the one-armed man!"

Done, big thanks, it was a great contribution

It was way too long since I last  watched The Mask for me to get this one, heh!

[Felene]

He was alright untill I saw the "O" from the lily-killer hide-out.

And he randomly turns himself into a Harvester.

Good job Orsino!

[Dragonette29]

Felene wrote...

He was alright untill I saw the "O" from the lily-killer hide-out.

And he randomly turns himself into a Harvester.

Good job Orsino!

Well, it was good for a crazy, OOC act of shapeshifting...

[Dragonette29]

 ~Thought I'd post a few nice screenshots ~

All this hate is making Orsino upset 


....::::....

Modificata da Dragonette29, 17 marzo 2011 - 12:57 .