426 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragonette29]

Nemo66 wrote...

Dragonette29 wrote...

Squeeee!!!

I really like it. The sequences flash a little fast, but I guess it wouldn't be easy to do it differently with the amount of available video material.
Also, you really got this song stuck in my head! Mine and several other people's  it's perfect.
Have you heard this one?  It might not be your type of music, but I think the lyrics are really good.
I need to create a fan video category in the OP! 

I'm proud of this little fandom, I really am.

Ooooh, nice song choice! I could see a really epic video to that music

And yep, the flashing bothered me as well, but it was the only way I could add any sort of pace to it with so little clips available.
*Sigh* I need more Orsino, clearly thats the only solution to the problem

I've never done any video editing, but I already have one composed in my head 
Had I access to the video clips, I'd probably be up for the challenge.
Where did you get your from? Did you record them?

Ooohh, that's be so epic 

[Dragonette29]

Also, I would really LOVE to make my own Staff of Violation one day.
It would make for an amazing craft project.

Modifié par Dragonette29, 23 mars 2011 - 04:34 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Orsino is why I don't feel conflicted about siding with the Templars. He seemed like a good guy, but he wasn't. He was supporting Quentin's research. His letter even congratulated him on the good progress he was making. He did exactly what Fenris said mages in the Tevinter Imperium do - turn to blood magic because it is their best weapon. I only sided with the mages on my first playthrough. I sided with the templars guilt free on my next game.

[Dragonette29]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Orsino is why I don't feel conflicted about siding with the Templars. He seemed like a good guy, but he wasn't. He was supporting Quentin's research. His letter even congratulated him on the good progress he was making. He did exactly what Fenris said mages in the Tevinter Imperium do - turn to blood magic because it is their best weapon. I only sided with the mages on my first playthrough. I sided with the templars guilt free on my next game.

You are assuming he knew every detail of Quentin's research. There is a difference between necromancy involvind dead bodies and between murder. 
The fact that Orsino supported controversial research isn't in any way condemning, have you never heard of scientific curiosity? The fact he did it because of just (or mainly) that is even emphasized by his use of the word "collegue", which is often used between academics.

[Vhalkyrie]

Dragonette29 wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Orsino is why I don't feel conflicted about siding with the Templars. He seemed like a good guy, but he wasn't. He was supporting Quentin's research. His letter even congratulated him on the good progress he was making. He did exactly what Fenris said mages in the Tevinter Imperium do - turn to blood magic because it is their best weapon. I only sided with the mages on my first playthrough. I sided with the templars guilt free on my next game.

You are assuming he knew every detail of Quentin's research. There is a difference between necromancy involvind dead bodies and between murder. 
The fact that Orsino supported controversial research isn't in any way condemning, have you never heard of scientific curiosity? The fact he did it because of just (or mainly) that is even emphasized by his use of the word "collegue", which is often used between academics.

Uhh... he said he knew about Quetin's research at the end.  There is no assumption.  He admitted he hid and overlooked it because he didn't want Meredith to use it as an excuse to continue her crusade.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2011 - 05:23 .

[Sarah1281]

Uhh... he said he knew about Quetin's research at the end. There is no assumption. He admitted he hid and overlooked it because he didn't want Meredith to use it as an excuse to continue her crusade.

He does admit that he knew Quentin killed Hawke's mom, yeah. Still, I don't think that can be blamed solely on Orsino. If Irving knew that, say, Jowan was off being a crazy serial killer trying to bring back Lily after she was executed at Aeonar then I think he'd tell Greagoir about it. It says something truly sad about the state of the templars that it was considered LESS harmful to let a crazy serial killer do his business than to alert the templars because of what it would mean for all the non-crazy serial killers.

[Beerfish]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Uhh... he said he knew about Quetin's research at the end. There is no assumption. He admitted he hid and overlooked it because he didn't want Meredith to use it as an excuse to continue her crusade.

He does admit that he knew Quentin killed Hawke's mom, yeah. Still, I don't think that can be blamed solely on Orsino. If Irving knew that, say, Jowan was off being a crazy serial killer trying to bring back Lily after she was executed at Aeonar then I think he'd tell Greagoir about it. It says something truly sad about the state of the templars that it was considered LESS harmful to let a crazy serial killer do his business than to alert the templars because of what it would mean for all the non-crazy serial killers.

I'd say that shows as much about the mages and their leader as the Templars.

[JamesX]

Dragonette29 wrote...

The fact that Orsino supported controversial research isn't in any way condemning, have you never heard of scientific curiosity? The fact he did it because of just (or mainly) that is even emphasized by his use of the word "collegue", which is often used between academics.

When the scientific research involves Necromancy?  And that he actively send "forbidden books" to the said researcher?  

That is damning in ANY court of law in our world.  If you support someone's research and that research involved murder, even if you claime you knew nothing about it, you will catch hell for it.  Especially when the research is on something involving animating dead bodies - which in Mage lore is usually about demon possessing dead corpses.

Don't forget you have to add in the fact, Orsino indeed kept up with the research, as evident by the fact he used the research for his transformation at the end.  So not only did he read the research, he processed it to a level of understanding to repeat it.  

Even if we make the strange jump that Orsino never thought where the "fresh" bodies comes from, or provided no cover for the Necromancer from law enforcement and Templars for his various crimes.

If you think that he is "good person" even when he read, understood, supported a research that will draw dead body to himself to form a powerful undead creature - then I don't think anything presented will change your mind, since it is already set in stone.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Uhh... he said he knew about Quetin's research at the end. There is no assumption. He admitted he hid and overlooked it because he didn't want Meredith to use it as an excuse to continue her crusade.

He does admit that he knew Quentin killed Hawke's mom, yeah. Still, I don't think that can be blamed solely on Orsino. If Irving knew that, say, Jowan was off being a crazy serial killer trying to bring back Lily after she was executed at Aeonar then I think he'd tell Greagoir about it. It says something truly sad about the state of the templars that it was considered LESS harmful to let a crazy serial killer do his business than to alert the templars because of what it would mean for all the non-crazy serial killers.

That is Orsino's excuse.  His real reason is that he is interested in the research.  He could have VERY easily stopped the research and thus end all possibilty of Templar "misunderstanding".  Instead he hid the guy, provided him with materials required, because he wanted the research to continue.

Think about just how reasonable his excuse is before accepting it at face value.

Hiding the fact the research happened from the Templars in no way requires continuation of the research nor his endorcement of it.  His justification flys in the face of the letter he sent to the lily killer.  

Modifié par JamesX, 23 mars 2011 - 05:24 .

[Vhalkyrie]

The fact he also acknowledges he uses Quentin's research to become the harvester is pretty damning that he was full aware of the details.  Which is why I was his judge and executioner.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2011 - 05:23 .

[Sarah1281]

Beerfish wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Uhh... he said he knew about Quetin's research at the end. There is no assumption. He admitted he hid and overlooked it because he didn't want Meredith to use it as an excuse to continue her crusade.

He does admit that he knew Quentin killed Hawke's mom, yeah. Still, I don't think that can be blamed solely on Orsino. If Irving knew that, say, Jowan was off being a crazy serial killer trying to bring back Lily after she was executed at Aeonar then I think he'd tell Greagoir about it. It says something truly sad about the state of the templars that it was considered LESS harmful to let a crazy serial killer do his business than to alert the templars because of what it would mean for all the non-crazy serial killers.

I'd say that shows as much about the mages and their leader as the Templars.

Well OBVIOUSLY Orsino's decision to place the wellfare of his mages above the wellfare of all of Quentin's potential victims and their families says something about him. The point wasn't to say that Orsino did nothing wrong or had no choice but to point out that when it becomes a serious question of whether getting rid of the crazy serial killer would cause more harm than good then the templars are doing something wrong.

[Vhalkyrie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Uhh... he said he knew about Quetin's research at the end. There is no assumption. He admitted he hid and overlooked it because he didn't want Meredith to use it as an excuse to continue her crusade.

He does admit that he knew Quentin killed Hawke's mom, yeah. Still, I don't think that can be blamed solely on Orsino. If Irving knew that, say, Jowan was off being a crazy serial killer trying to bring back Lily after she was executed at Aeonar then I think he'd tell Greagoir about it. It says something truly sad about the state of the templars that it was considered LESS harmful to let a crazy serial killer do his business than to alert the templars because of what it would mean for all the non-crazy serial killers.

Absolutely right.  Irving would have brought the information to Gregoir, and Gregoir would have executed Jowan, no doubt.  Poor management in Kirkwall.  Orsino was more concerned about hiding the atrocities of his mages, than in doing his job.  Under no circumstances would Irving had hid and protected Jowan after he was revealed as a blood mage.  My mage got a serious reprimand from Irving for lying about Jowan to protect him.  She was forced to join the protection of the Grey Wardens.

If Irving had a habit of hiding information from Gregoire, then I'm certain Gregoire would become suspicious of Irving and start an investigation into what he was hiding.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2011 - 05:36 .

[Sarah1281]

No, Orsino didn't HAVE to use the research and he certainly didn't have to lend him Circle resources. Just the same, I think that if Quentin had less information there might have been more bodies as he'd need to do more trial-and-error. (Not that that excuses Orsino at all, I just don't think Quentin would be deterred. Also...I'm very disappointed in Gascard.)

Still, what if Orsino HAD told Meredith about Quentin? How would she have reacted to yet more proof that blood magic was everywhere and no one could be trusted?

[JamesX]

Sarah1281 wrote...

No, Orsino didn't HAVE to use the research and he certainly didn't have to lend him Circle resources. Just the same, I think that if Quentin had less information there might have been more bodies as he'd need to do more trial-and-error. (Not that that excuses Orsino at all, I just don't think Quentin would be deterred. Also...I'm very disappointed in Gascard.)

Still, what if Orsino HAD told Meredith about Quentin? How would she have reacted to yet more proof that blood magic was everywhere and no one could be trusted?

Never occured to you that Orsino can actually take care of the problem himself?  He is suppose to manage the circle as well.  Policing the Circle isn't only an Templar job.

He is more concerned about one-up-ing the Templars than doing his own job.

[Vhalkyrie]

JamesX wrote...
Never occured to you that Orsino can actually take care of the problem himself?  He is suppose to manage the circle as well.  Policing the Circle isn't only an Templar job.

He is more concerned about one-up-ing the Templars than doing his own job.

Bingo.  And Meredith says as much, if you listen to her confrontation with Orsino.  She tells him if he did his job in policing his own, then maybe she wouldn't have to step in and do it for him.

"If you cannot tell me another way, do not brand me a tyrant."

At which point, Orsino the First Enchanter needed to say: "I will investigate blood mage activity, and eliminate it."  At which point he was well aware there WAS a blood mage problem.  He was covering up, turning a blind eye, saying their hand was forced.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2011 - 06:10 .

[Beerfish]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Uhh... he said he knew about Quetin's research at the end. There is no assumption. He admitted he hid and overlooked it because he didn't want Meredith to use it as an excuse to continue her crusade.

He does admit that he knew Quentin killed Hawke's mom, yeah. Still, I don't think that can be blamed solely on Orsino. If Irving knew that, say, Jowan was off being a crazy serial killer trying to bring back Lily after she was executed at Aeonar then I think he'd tell Greagoir about it. It says something truly sad about the state of the templars that it was considered LESS harmful to let a crazy serial killer do his business than to alert the templars because of what it would mean for all the non-crazy serial killers.

I'd say that shows as much about the mages and their leader as the Templars.

Well OBVIOUSLY Orsino's decision to place the wellfare of his mages above the wellfare of all of Quentin's potential victims and their families says something about him. The point wasn't to say that Orsino did nothing wrong or had no choice but to point out that when it becomes a serious question of whether getting rid of the crazy serial killer would cause more harm than good then the templars are doing something wrong.

And it totally reinforces the thought that mages can't be trusted, are dangerous and for sure cannot be policed by themselves.  I dare say the acts of Orsino and Anders at the end of the game would give any Templar organization anywhere cause to become more radical, more vigilant and even to call for annulment at the 1st sign of any trouble at all.

Anders and Orsino liked to bleat on about the fate of all mages when in fact they apparently only cared for the mages in their care for Orsino and only for vengenace for Anders.

Modifié par Beerfish, 23 mars 2011 - 06:06 .

[Mayorin]

Well, when you make the choice whether to side with the mages or templars you know nothing about Orsino's involvement in murders. At that time the choice is about should all the mages, innocent or no, die to appease people's rage for one apostate's terrorist attack. Meredith could have just quartered Anders publicly, burned him, pissed on his corpse or whatever. Why make the unnecessary bloodshed? I think the Rite of Annulment was just a whim of a bloodthirsty mad woman. That's why i never side with the templars at the end even being pro-templar all the way.
And Orsino is awesome btw.<3<3<3

Modifié par Mayorin, 23 mars 2011 - 06:15 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Mayorin wrote...

Well, when you make the choice whether to side with the mages or templars you know nothing about Orsino's involvement in murders. At that time the choice is all about should all the mages, innocent or no, die to appease people's rage for Anders terrorist attack. Meredith could have just quarter Anders publicly, burn him, ****** on his corpse or whatever. Why make the unnecessary bloodshed? I think the Rite of Annulment was just a whim of a bloodthirsty mad woman. That's why i never side with the templars even being pro-templar all the way.
And Orsino is awesome btw.

Irving would have had no compuncture about elliminating a blood mage insurgence, even supporting Gregoire in a Right of Annulment.  He says as much after Uldred, that a Right of Annulment would have been justified.  Uldred's plan was far too dangerous, and was worth destroying the Circle and everything in it.

Orsino, in comparison, had no cahones.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2011 - 06:11 .

[Dragonette29]

 Wow, that certainly put this thread back to life  (does this make me a necromancer, lol?)

These are some really strong arguments.

JamesX said...

Don't forget you have to add in the fact, Orsino indeed kept up with the research, as evident by the fact he used the research for his transformation at the end. So not only did he read the research, he processed it to a level of understanding to repeat it.

That was probably the case. However, what and whether (and why) he intended to use this knowledge is a mere speculation. (There is nothing wrong with knowing things alone, especially if you think they might one day help you or the people who's rights you're fighting for)
He DID, after all, say he thought the research was too dangerous. He only used it when pinned against the wall in what seemed to him a lost battle. The campaign he used to lead- trying to keep mages safe and free of being condemned as pure evil- was already lost thanks to Mr Anders.

Again, mind you, I'm not saying Orsino was a "good person". Good and bad are relative words and most everything falls between the two, not at the extremes.

Vhalkyrie said...

I sided with the templars guilt free on my next game.

Back to this.
EVEN if we decide both Quentin and Orsino are both irreformable murderers, does it really give you reason enough to condemn all mages? Because magic is dangerous?<_<
Should we execute the entire scientific community because Josef Mengele experimented on concentration camp inmates? Or maybe because explosives kill people?  (not even to say that in this case it's mages who are inmates and that they were simply born this way)

He does admit that he knew Quentin killed Hawke's mom

Which of the main characters doesn't know about it at that point?
Would you, in his place, go to the Champion and apologise on Quentin's behalf?

There is still no evidence that Orsino knew about/supported murder.

Whether Necromancy in itself is something unacceptable and evil is an ethical question, one of which we have plenty in the real world. I, personally, say it isn't. It just isn't morally acceptable.

[JamesX]

Dragonette29 wrote...

That was probably the case. However, what and whether (and why) he intended to use this knowledge is a mere speculation. (There is nothing wrong with knowing things alone, especially if you think they might one day help you or the people who's rights you're fighting for)

There is nothing wrong with only knowing things.  There is everything wrong with how you go about learning it.  Blood Magic by itself is not evil or good, it is just a tool.  HOw you learned it, and how you use it is what makes it good or evil.

The problem is we assume Orsino is an intelligent person.  It is a reasonable assumption that he understood the research enough to apply/replicate it.  So he would then know how it is done.  Knowing how it is done isn't too hard to reason out how it is gotten.  So either

1) He knew how the research is conducted and decided it is worth the sacrifice - e.g. the murders and such.
2) He deliberate discourged himself form thinking too deep into it
3) The Lily Killer deliberately presented a "innocent" version of the research to Orisno and fooled him completely.

Of the 3, 1 is the most likely deduction.  Because he is not stupid.  Plus Orisino is already a blood mage at that point.  By all referrence Blood Magic is not something you conduct at a whime.  You have to have spent time studied it to make it work.  Like any spell, you studied it to use it.  So by the fact Orisno used it at the end sequence means prior to that (maybe even just the night before) he studied it.  But by his referrence it seems he always studied (e.g is a blood mage) but never used it for lack of need.

2, seems illogical because Orsino seems a person who thinks ahead.  By the fact the hide the research because he anticipated Meredith's reaction.  By the fact he sent the Champion (if sided with him at the beginning of act 3) to stop a rebellion he know is brewing.  Both represent a person with a habit of activly heading off things before it happen.  The latter also presents the fact he has his own eyes and ears (both within the Circle and with in the Templars).  Those combined with his support and interest in Lily Killer's research makes it more likely he devoured every bit of the reserach thinking and rethinking it because he is immensely interested in it.  It is then very unlikely he didn't think about the means by which the research is conducted.


3, is more plusible than 2, but considering Lily Killer is insane - and admited that he neglicted everything, even his pupil, for the research, and of Orsino's willing aid, it is unlikely he would need to "bleach" his research.  It is further confirmed by the actual result of the spell Orsino used.  WHen he used it he knew exactly what he is doing - merging dead corpses into a single giant weapon.  So it is unlikely the research report is very innocent or neutural.

Dragonette29 wrote...

He DID, after all, say he thought the research was too dangerous. He only used it when pinned against the wall in what seemed to him a lost battle. The campaign he used to lead- trying to keep mages safe and free of being condemned as pure evil- was already lost thanks to Mr Anders.

This is where my opinions differ from you.  Orsino is NOT doing this to keep the mages free.  He is doing this so mages can research whatever they want.  He isn't talking about some astract idea of "Equal Rights, or Self-Governance" he is doing this so no one can interfere with what he wants to study.

and for the record Orsino never actively promoted seperate from the Chantry.  That is Anders.

And personally, Orsino's actions are far far far more damning about the mage's "evil" nature than anders ever did.  Ander is a singular act of a mad man.  Orsino is the orchistration of the entire tragedy - his action is a systematic act of deception, misleading, and polarization that traces back 10 years.  Without Orsino's double dealings Ander might not even go to the extreme that he did.  Ander (at least according to him) only did what he did because he believe his cause lost.  Templar is sucessfully crushing the spirit of the mages in Kirkwall.

Modifié par JamesX, 23 mars 2011 - 06:41 .

[Sarah1281]

Never occured to you that Orsino can actually take care of the problem himself? He is suppose to manage the circle as well. Policing the Circle isn't only an Templar job.

Of course it occured to me. I just figured that he couldn't have dealt with it on his own so he could either tell the templars about it or cover it up.

Which of the main characters doesn't know about it at that point?

Um...none of them KNEW that Orsino was supporting the research of a man who he introduced by saying something along the lines of Hawke should remember him well. He said that he put the research aside because it was too dangerous but he's apparently well-versed enough in it to become a Harvester at the drop of a hat. It's not that Orsino said that he was aware a mage killed Hawke's mom. He said that he was aware that a mage whose research he is about to use to fight Meredith killed her and that he hid Quentin to stop Meredith from using that as an excuse to go psycho...but that he needn't have bothered as she went psycho anyway.

And it totally reinforces the thought that mages can't be trusted, are dangerous and for sure cannot be policed by themselves.

Which was kind of what Orsino was trying to avoid by covering it up. You're nto willing to admit at all that even though Orsino was in the wrong it was the zealotry of the templars and their insistence on holding all mages accountable for the actions of individual mages that led to this desperation? Had Orsino been the First Enchanter in Ferelden and knew about Quentin, he likely wouldn't have felt compelled to hide it.

[dragonflight288]

I personally really liked Orsino's personality and his commitment to the Circle. I especially liked how he preached that Meredith is NOT the viscount so she shouldn't be able to interfere in politics. That's not her duty. She can't veto someone who volunteers to become viscount (Hawke anyone?) which she does.

But I don't like Orsino's supporting the ladykiller (literally), even if he didn't know all the details, he still supported a magic that gives ammo to Meredith. And his ending sucked. I sided with the mages, playing a mage Hawke. We are winning, driving back the templars, and then he feels we are not winning and suddenly attempts to harvest our souls or something. WHAT THE CRAP IS THAT ABOUT?

Then I think about right before Anders blows up the chantry, he is attempting to prevent Meredith from examining the circle for use of blood magic by going to the Grand Cleric (which I think is perfectly reasonable as Meredith was seeing nothing but blood magic everywhere) But was he concerned that she may link him to it? I don't know.

By the very end, I was frustrated and annoyed with both of them. I was all for 'make me viscount and I'll be a judge with a jury of nobles, and you two can have it out....or I'll put the two of you into an arena and watch you fight to the death. Save me a massive headache.'

[Vhalkyrie]

Dragonette29 wrote...

 Wow, that certainly put this thread back to life  (does this make me a necromancer, lol?)

Yes.  Kill her! 

That was probably the case. However, what and whether (and why) he intended to use this knowledge is a mere speculation. (There is nothing wrong with knowing things alone, especially if you think they might one day help you or the people who's rights you're fighting for)
He DID, after all, say he thought the research was too dangerous. He only used it when pinned against the wall in what seemed to him a lost battle. The campaign he used to lead- trying to keep mages safe and free of being condemned as pure evil- was already lost thanks to Mr Anders.

Again, mind you, I'm not saying Orsino was a "good person". Good and bad are relative words and most everything falls between the two, not at the extremes.

I believe Fenris is right when he says magisters will always turn to their most powerful weapon (blood magic) and use whatever excuse is necessary to justify it.  He did not have to use blood magic.  Orsino could have turned himself in.  My Hawke begged him to turn himself in and stop the madness.  It could have stopped with him, right there.  He escalated it by using the 'nuclear option' - Quentin's research. 

I spared no blood mages.  I defied Meredith, though, and spared the mages at the end who turned themselves in peacefully.

I'm not saying either was good or evil.  They were both wrong, and they were both right.  So the question is, they are both wrong, so which side do I choose?  I chose the templars because they are a balance of power to the mages.  Mages are dangerous.  They didn't chose to be born the way they were; some are good (Bethany); some are bad (Quentin).  However, the bad ones unchained will level cities and enslave everyone in blood.

During an exchange with Sebastian and Fenris he says something like:

Sebastian: The mages cannot rule themselves.  It will become the Tevinter Imperium, and no one wants that.
Fenris: I knew there was a reason I liked you.

Freedom for mages sounds happy and revolutionary, and we should all love that.  However, there is a terrible price.  The horrific oppression of the Tevinter Imperium was pushed back during the time of Andraste.

Orsino thought Meredith was too restrictive, yet she was right in that he would do nothing to police his own.  Mages who rule themselves without a balance will become magisters.

Going back to the Irving/Gregoire reference.  Did Irving love Gregoire? No.  Did he love the templars? No.  Did he think the templars were necessary.  Absolutely.

Back to this.
EVEN if we decide both Quentin and Orsino are both irreformable murderers, does it really give you reason enough to condemn all mages? Because magic is dangerous?<_<
Should we execute the entire scientific community because Josef Mengele experimented on concentration camp inmates? Or maybe because explosives kill people?  (not even to say that in this case it's mages who are inmates and that they were simply born this way)

Yes, I condemned all mages.  Right of Annulment was justified.   That's what the Right of Annulment means.  It is not pretty.  Some innocent mages will die.  Gregoire was ready to do it when Uldred went haywire, and Irving supported him.  Gregoire gave my warden a chance to find Irving alive.  If Irving was dead, there was no turning back.  During a discussion with Irving after saving him, he basically says thanks for saving the Circle, but Annulment would have been justified.

Orsino turning a blind eye to the blood mage insurrection condemned all the mages.  I think the Right of Annulment was inevitable.  Anders just pushed it along.  So I did not punish the mages because of Anders.  I punished the mages because of Orsino.  Did I know what he was up to?  I had my suspicions after one of my conversations with him asking him about if there was any truth to the blood mage infiltration.  He was pointedly evasive.

It also seemed too convenient that Orsino was being portrayed as a 'good guy' for sticking up for the rights of mages.  I knew there had to be a catch.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2011 - 07:55 .

[Dragonette29]

JamesX said...

3, is more plusible than 2, but considering Lily Killer is insane - and admited that he neglicted everything, even his pupil, for the research, and of Orsino's willing aid, it is unlikely he would need to "bleach" his research. It is further confirmed by the actual result of the spell Orsino used. WHen he used it he knew exactly what he is doing - merging dead corpses into a single giant weapon. So it is unlikely the research report is very innocent or neutural.

I find it likely that Quentin's reports were slightly "bleached", if only in the "osessively killing innocent women" part. There are many things to and many degrees of insanity and it doesn't have to mean lack of cunning. "Insane" people can go to great lengths to achieve their goals.

This is where my opinions differ from you. Orsino is NOT doing this to keep the mages free. He is doing this so mages can research whatever they want. He isn't talking about some astract idea of "Equal Rights, or Self-Governance" he is doing this so no one can interfere with what he wants to study.

What makes you so sure?
Freedom to research whatever they want may have- if you insist- been ONE OF his goals. And why would he not want that? (whether it makes him a better or worse a person is a different question)

Sarah1281 said...

Um...none of them KNEW that Orsino was supporting the research of a man who he introduced by saying something along the lines of Hawke should remember him well. He said that he put the research aside because it was too dangerous but he's apparently well-versed enough in it to become a Harvester at the drop of a hat. It's not that Orsino said that he was aware a mage killed Hawke's mom. He said that he was aware that a mage whose research he is about to use to fight Meredith killed her and that he hid Quentin to stop Meredith from using that as an excuse to go psycho...but that he needn't have bothered as she went psycho anyway.

Hey, I agree with that. What I meant was that he didn't have to know about the murders at the time of them happening and could've linked Leandra's death to Quentin after it was all over. Nobody is to say that he wasn't ridden with guilt for allowing it to happen. The fact that he uses the murderer's knowledge to do whatever the writers made him want to achieve means that he retained it/had an unhealthy fascination with it, just that. Was he supposed to purge his mind of it just because of the way in which it was acquired?

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Yes. Kill her! 

Does the fact that I'm pretty much a genetic engineer in the making put your mind at ease? 

Yes, I condemned all mages. Right of Annulment was justified. That's what the Right of Annulment means. It is not pretty. Some innocent mages will die. Gregoire was ready to do it when Uldred went haywire, and Irving supported him. Orsino turning a blind eye to the blood mage insurrection condemned all the mages. I think the Right of Annulment was inevitable. Anders just pushed it along. So I did not punish the mages because of Anders. I punished the mages because of Orsino. Did I know what he was up to? I had my suspicions after one of my conversations with him asking him about if there was any truth to the blood mage infiltration. He was pointedly evasive.

This does not justify genocide. And the bloodthirsty mobs with pitchforks, who will undoubtedly be the major force behind that Thedas-wide mage hunt that is likely to occur, will not understand the 'noble' reasoning behind the Right of Annulment.

Modifié par Dragonette29, 23 mars 2011 - 08:19 .

[Sarah1281]

I believe Fenris is right when he says magisters will always turn to their most powerful weapon (blood magic) and use whatever excuse is necessary to justify it. He did not have to use blood magic. Orsino could have turned himself in. My Hawke begged him to turn himself in and stop the madness. It could have stopped with him, right there. He escalated it by using the 'nuclear option' - Quentin's research.

Wait, when did Hawke beg him to turn himself in? While Meredith was in the middle of killing every mage in sight? What about the part where Orsino asked Meredith to call off the Rite and offered to give her exactly what she wanted and they were arguing about before Anders blew up the Chantry? He even offered to help and Meredith just said she was going to kill them all. If Orsino had turned himself in, do you know what would have happened? Meredith would have killed him and then kept killing all the mages.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 23 mars 2011 - 08:32 .

[Dragonette29]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I believe Fenris is right when he says magisters will always turn to their most powerful weapon (blood magic) and use whatever excuse is necessary to justify it. He did not have to use blood magic. Orsino could have turned himself in. My Hawke begged him to turn himself in and stop the madness. It could have stopped with him, right there. He escalated it by using the 'nuclear option' - Quentin's research.

Wait, when did Hawke beg him to turn himself in? While Meredith was in the middle of killing every mage in sight? What about the part where Orsino asked Meredith to call off the Rite and offered to give her exactly what she wanted and they were arguing about before Anders blew up the Chantry? He even offered to help and Meredith just said she was going to kill them all. If Orsino had turned himself in, do you know what would have happened? Meredith would have killed him and then kept killing all the mages.

I absolutely agree with this.