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[Icy Magebane]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

I really doubt it. Common people aren't going to care about the freedom of mages, just like they don't care about the lives of elves. They worship Andraste and believe in what the Chantry teaches, so the Templar forces would have a huge numbers advantage. Then again, wouldn't it be in Tevinter's interest to aid the Circles? Hm... You know what? I'm not even sure. The only thing I can reasonably speculate on is the invasion from the Qunari to mop the floor with whoever survives.

It would be in tevinters intrests to expand the power of their empire.. They dont give a damn about the mages outside their empire.. And if mages flocked to their empire, that would annoy them even more. Since that means competition in politics.. and they wont like that.. So I doubt the circles would get tevinter support

Aren't they compelled to aid the Chantry if there is an Exhalted March, or is that possibility out of the question?  In fact, exactly where is this war going to take place?  I thought the epilogue mentioned all the Circles across Thedas rebelling... Also, if they can convince more mages to join their empire, their power grows, and they have to be considering another conquest of Thedas... if they could get all the Circles to see them as allies, wouldn't that help them in the end?

Whatever... like I said, I have no idea how this would play out.  Just tossing around ideas really.

[CitizenSnips]

They do if they all find lost elven gems and learn how to turn into Arcane Warriors.

[Medhia Nox]

Why do the Templars rebel? It makes no sense to me -

Why do all the Circles rebel? I know it only implies "all".

My Champion was a mage who supported the Circles and the Templars - however, I sided with the Mages against Meredith because she was abusing her status and was, of course, completely evil in the end (who wasn't?)

"IF" I get to play my Champion again - I'll be a mage working to put down the Circle rebels.

I love Chapter 2 and most of Chapter 3 - but the ending left a sour taste in my mouth. The Dragon Age world is young - the Circles and the Chantry were distinctive features - now, it seems like it might go to "carbon copy fantasy slop".

I truly hope not - but *shrugs*

[Danjaru]

with my Mage Hawke and Human Mage Warden they do!

[Augustei]

Icy Magebane wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

I really doubt it. Common people aren't going to care about the freedom of mages, just like they don't care about the lives of elves. They worship Andraste and believe in what the Chantry teaches, so the Templar forces would have a huge numbers advantage. Then again, wouldn't it be in Tevinter's interest to aid the Circles? Hm... You know what? I'm not even sure. The only thing I can reasonably speculate on is the invasion from the Qunari to mop the floor with whoever survives.

It would be in tevinters intrests to expand the power of their empire.. They dont give a damn about the mages outside their empire.. And if mages flocked to their empire, that would annoy them even more. Since that means competition in politics.. and they wont like that.. So I doubt the circles would get tevinter support

Aren't they compelled to aid the Chantry if there is an Exhalted March, or is that possibility out of the question?  In fact, exactly where is this war going to take place?  I thought the epilogue mentioned all the Circles across Thedas rebelling... Also, if they can convince more mages to join their empire, their power grows, and they have to be considering another conquest of Thedas... if they could get all the Circles to see them as allies, wouldn't that help them in the end?

Whatever... like I said, I have no idea how this would play out.  Just tossing around ideas really.

The Chantry outside that of the "Black Divine" is not recognised outside Tevinter, they will ignore and call for an exalted march.. The Magisters are power hungry and greedy.. They definitly wouldn't see mages flocking to their empire as a good thing.. I remember either a dev or codex entry saying that they wouldn't like this because since mages are essentially running the show in tevinter, they wont want political competition. Sure it adds to the strength of the empire.. But the mages will fail to see how it will benefit them personally.. These new mages will only be a thorn in their side. They wont want them there and will attempt to stop them from heading to Tevinter

[Icy Magebane]

Hm... those are good points XxDeonxX... you're probably right about Tevinter.

[TheCreeper]

I think the fact that the seekers are actively trying to reach a not harsh peace with the Mages in the Mage Ending implies that the very least the Chantry thinks the mages can win.

[Medhia Nox]

Or they just don't want to see the common people suffer because they actually care - unlike the mages who don't care who they hurt so long as they get what they want.

And I hope they do - and I hope when the new free mages have children, their untrained children succumb to demon possession and destroy their free parents souls for all eternity.

It'll serve them right for all their self-serving terrorism.

[AlexXIV]

I think the mages have a pretty good chance. They basically only need one ritual that is powerful enough to throw all of Thedas into chaos, Open the veil to let all demons through or whatever. This war could as well be the end of the world I guess.

[ObserverStatus]

Mages don't have to win outright, they just have to make enough trouble to force a conditional ceasefire.

[DiabolicallyRandom]

My take: I have a feeling that maybe next game, if it is made, will bring the stories together. Some kind of world war that reunites the fractured factions.

Remember, we still have a potential demon child out there, and Flemeth, whom we only saw for a moment. Who knows what she has stirring. Maybe she is Marshalling a demon army? Who knows. I do definitely think the next logical step would be a bringing together of the stories.

[DJ Doc]

The Warden (Human Mage out of the Amell family)
The Champion (Human Mage out of the Amell family)
Both eat High Dragons and Demons for breakfast

Then we got Morrigan with the wardens child and somehow I got a hunch that Flemeth also has a Amell in her bloodline

Look's like the Amell's are destint to build a new and better empire with a couple of human shaped old Gods (well that's what I would do)

The strong rule the weak, always *eg*

[Dean_the_Young]

bobobo878 wrote...

Mages don't have to win outright, they just have to make enough trouble to force a conditional ceasefire.

Well, that applies for either side, and could well favor the Templars. Take the Circle of Ferelden, for example: in an island in the middle of the lake, do the Templars need to invade? Or could they just starve the mages into submission? Certainly blockade favors the Templars.


It seems the Chantry lost control of the Templars and the Magi both, which likely means that it lost control of the lyrium supply as well. Who has control of that, I wonder?

[Everwarden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Counter point, Everwarden: the Mages can loose just as much. Their lives, for one.

Better to die than live a slave. It's still better to take the bastards down in droves than to continue to serve them.

Simply because the Chantry would lose more in the face of another Blight, or the Qunari, doesn't mean that greater cost isn't one the Chantry wouldn't be willing to pay

Better start learning Qunari, then. If the mages lose, Thedas will have to transition over.

More mages, who can be properly loyal, can be born and found. The technology gap between the Qunari and Andrastian nations has lessened with time, with the adaptation of steel.

1. No. Most of the mages in Thedas were in the circles, and magic is genetic. If you kill 90% of the gingers in the world, you can't just fix that like you're growing a fresh crop of carrots. It would take several generations (oh, and mages AREN'T ALLOWED TO BREED! Read the comic) at a bare minimum. 
2. That several generations is enough time for the Qunari to sail up with their cannons. Steel wasn't the advantage they had, it was gunpowder, and they still have it. Guns beat swords every single time.

Where will the mages get Lyrium from? What will their economy matter? How will their means of protecting themselves affect the surrounding communities and peoples? 

 

To the first question: The dwarves. 
To the second: Mages have services available that are exclusive to mages. They're highly in demand, with a low supply. That's a good position to be in. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 16 mars 2011 - 01:08 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Everwarden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Counter point, Everwarden: the Mages can loose just as much. Their lives, for one.

Better to die than live a slave. It's still better to take the bastards down in droves than to continue to serve them.

That's a personal opinion... and one that would preclude you from ever actually getting your freedom.

A live slave can stop being a slave when he or she escapes. A dead person is not free.

Better start learning Qunari, then. If the mages lose, Thedas will have to transition over.

And if the mages won, it wouldn't?

1. No. Most of the mages in Thedas were in the circles, and magic is genetic. If you kill 90% of the gingers in the world, you can't just fix that like you're growing a fresh crop of carrots. It would take several generations (oh, and mages AREN'T ALLOWED TO BREED! Read the comic) at a bare minimum.

I have read the comic. I've also played the games: mages are constantly entering the circle after being found outside. I also have a bit more sense about how demographics work than you, apparently.

If mages aren't allowed to breed, a restriction that only is upheld within the Circle, the only way for the circles to maintain a population in the first place is by a net influx of 'immigration'. This is because, again, by your own position, there isn't a self-sustaining population bae within the towers. In order for there to be circles to have rebel, they must have come from the general population... a population that's shown no sign of being depleted of magic-bearing lines now as opposed to, say, the last thousand years.

There's no basis for presuming that now is different from the last millenia, and that there are no more magical children being born outside the Circles. If that was so, we wouldn't have kids still being found outside the Circles... like the Hawkes.

Magic isn't being depicted as extinct, Ever. In fact, we know that magic comes and goes in a line, as demonstrated by the Hawkes, while we also know the Templars don't simply execute entire family lines that have produced mages.

2. That several generations is enough time for the Qunari to sail up with their cannons. Steel wasn't the advantage they had, it was gunpowder, and they still have it. Guns beat swords every single time.

And, fortunately, the world also is developing gunpowder... thank the Dwarves for that one.

To the first question: The dwarves.

The Dwarves are in two stationary locations. That doesn't mean they can trade wherever they want on the Surface, despite any blockades to the contrary.

To the second: Mages have services available that are exclusive to mages. They're highly in demand, with a low supply. That's a good position to be in. 

It's also an easy position to block off.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 mars 2011 - 01:28 .

[Raiil]

I really do they they do.


Mages who have gotten some outside information and aren't interested in abominating themselves would probably try to scuttle over to Ferelden (that was my first thought, anyways). I can easily see Alistair (and in my case, a fem Amell lover/chancellor) offering secluded land and the right to self-police themselves so long as they don't interfere with politics, harrass others, or turn to blood magic. A pact to defend Ferelden from Orlais- which I can't see a lot of mages having a real issue with, since Orlais is the true seat of power for the Chantry- is just begging to happen.


Some will try to go to Tevinter. IIRC, Tevinter doesn't treat most of their magi that well either, unless you've got power. There would be disillusionment.

[Everwarden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
There's no basis for presuming that now is different from the last millenia, and that there are no more magical children being born outside the Circles. If that was so, we wouldn't have kids still being found outside the Circles... like the Hawkes.

There is no basis not to. We don't exactly have a Thedas census to go by. But it stands to reason that if 90% of the population that carries a gene is wiped out and you're forced to draw your population in from the remaining 10%, it will take generations to return to the original number, if you even can at at all (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck), which is by no means certain.  

There could still be mages born in the rest of Thedas due to the Tevinter Imperium still having free mages. Magic is genetic, but can be passed on in non-mages who have mages in their ancestry. So the mages that pop up in Thedas could be because there is still genetic material being imported from Tevinter. 

Also, my point that the struggle is going to leave Thedas (except Tevinter) vulnerable to being steamrolled by the Qunari is still indisputable. A nation without mages to defend it loses against the Qunari. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 16 mars 2011 - 02:55 .

[Taiyama]

Zalocx wrote...

Well let me put it this way:

A) the mages lose the war, every kid who shows signs to being a mage is killed or made tranquil from them on or something= lots of innocents die

Mages win, but to do so they obviously have to resort to forbidden magic and pacts with fade spirits for the extra edge considering their smaller numbers. When the dust clears most of the ones left standing are demon possessed blood mages used to committing atrocities for power = lots of innocents die

Take your pick

False dilemma logical fallacy.

Anyway, I think there are a couple of things going for the Mages: One, the templars have rebelled. They've gone rogue, basically, and whether these rebels mean good or ill for the rebelling mages, this still weakens and divides the enemy.

Two, for some playthroughs, Alistair is king of Ferelden and seems to be quite pro-mage. A single example of a successful free Circle can do a lot more than any theoretical argument to advance the cause of Mage Liberty.

Three, Mages are on the defensive. This gives them not only a significant moral advantage but also gives them an edge strategically. Those who simply wish to rebel and secede wait for the enemy in their fortified positions, and do not have to sally forth and strike.

And of course there's the possibility that the Warden and/or the Champion are on the mages' side, which gives both moral support and a lot of extra firepower. I do think they can win. It'll be a hard fight but I think the mages can gain their rightly-deserved liberty.

[Dean_the_Young]

Everwarden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
There's no basis for presuming that now is different from the last millenia, and that there are no more magical children being born outside the Circles. If that was so, we wouldn't have kids still being found outside the Circles... like the Hawkes.

There is no basis not to. We don't exactly have a Thedas census to go by. But it stands to reason that if 90% of the population that carries a gene is wiped out and you're forced to draw your population in from the remaining 10%, it will take generations to return to the original number, if you even can at at all (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck), which is by no means certain. 

Except your arbitrary 90% of the population was never part of the breeding population that kept producing mages for millenia.

We have every reason not to: we have the very accounts of how the Templars go to know that the magic breeding population isn't ended by the Templars. 90% of the population that carries the gene are not wiped out. 90% of the population with genetic magic potential aren't in the Circles at all. The only people in the circle are the minority who have active magic potential, not genetic latency.

Maybe 90% of the population with realized magic might be in the circles... but they were never part of the breeding population in the first place. That goes to the families that produce the children who are brought in the family if, and only if, the child has realized their magical potential. For every mage who's been taken, their non-magical parents and siblings and even children remain to spread... whatever genetic element makes mages. Carver was not a mage, nor would Carver, or his mother, ever have been taken away or neutered by the Templars as a consequence of being related..

The population base that actually produces mages has not been weeded out. Every circle could go up in flames, and the population base that produces mages would still not have been weeded out, because there's never been any known, implied, or suggested movement that tamilies that have been known to produce mages are neutered, let alone cases like Wynn in which magical children are born to non-magical parents.

Mages aren't and haven't been producing the vast majority of mages. Non-mages have been giving brith to the vast majority of circle mages, and have also been continuing lines that can later produce mages as well. Magic is not a 'dominant' trait, in which anyone with any genetic flag is instantly a mage. It is, if it's directly genetic at all, recessive.

Also, my point that the struggle is going to leave Thedas (except Tevinter) vulnerable to being steamrolled by the Qunari is still indisputable. A nation without mages to defend it loses against the Qunari. 

It very much is indisputable. The Qunari no longer hold the same technological edges, in metalurgy or explosives, that they had in the first Qunari wars. There has not been total technological stagnation and preservation of the old status quo since then. Steel, and greater materials, have been developed. Explosive powders are no longer a monopoly of the Qunari.

Nor is a defeat of the Circles at all synonymous with the eradication of all mages. The single largest fraternity of mages is devoutly pro-Chantry: a break in the Circles, with some rebelling and some actively aligning with the Templars is in no way prevented so far.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 mars 2011 - 03:11 .

[Taleroth]

Everwarden wrote...

Magic is genetic, but can be passed on in non-mages who have mages in their ancestry. 

Magic can be hereditary.  But there's no reason to assume genetics in a fantasy world.  For all you know it's Lamarckian.

[Everwarden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Except your arbitrary 90% of the population was never part of the breeding population that kept producing mages for millenia.

I'll partially concede the point. We can assume that the mages who breed in circles (it's forbidden, but still happens, and the child is taken) produce mages, so by removing that many people who carry the gene you are at very least diminishing the population. 

Though the remaining source of mage genes might be coming from Tevinter, as I said. If an environment slowly culls any gene, it will become a smaller and smaller percentage of the population. By pinning in the mages they have been greatly reducing their chances to reproduce and pass their genes on for several centuries, not millenia, a millenium is 1000 years. In dragon age the Chantry has only had mages pinned up for a few hundred years.

Regardless, even assuming the gene remains entirely viable to produce lots and lots of mages for them, it would still take time to round them up, break them, and make them Chantry weapons again.

It very much is indisputable. The Qunari no longer hold the same technological edges, in metalurgy or explosives, that they had in the first Qunari wars. There has not been total technological stagnation and preservation of the old status quo since then. Steel, and greater materials, have been developed. Explosive powders are no longer a monopoly of the Qunari.

Nor is a defeat of the Circles at all synonymous with the eradication of all mages. The single largest fraternity of mages is devoutly pro-Chantry: a break in the Circles, with some rebelling and some actively aligning with the Templars is in no way prevented so far.

Steel, as stated, was not the technical edge that made the difference. There is a reason people stopped bothering with steel armor once guns were introduced. Pitting steel armor and swords against cannons is just a bad idea, and not a fight the nations of Thedas could realistically win. 

If you did the Gaatlok quests in DA2, you'll know that dwarven powders are still far, far inferior to the Qunari version. Dwarf blasting powder requires extremely expensive ingredients (lyrium, mainly), makes more of a mess, and is harder to keep stable. That may be why you see no dwarf cannons.

Oh, and provide a source for the bolded bit, please; because the codex in Origins said that the middle ground fraternity was the largest. 

Not that it matters, I doubt the fraternaties will hold now that the circles are all broken. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Everwarden wrote...

Steel, as stated, was not the technical edge that made the difference. There is a reason people stopped bothering with steel armor once guns were introduced. Pitting steel armor and swords against cannons is just a bad idea, and not a fight the nations of Thedas could realistically win.

There is, however, a reason why steel armor was bothered off long after cannons were introduced, and actually did remain in use (and influence) long after gunpowder and early muskets were invented. Namely, while cannons were great seige weapons they didn't negate infantry, or the need for personal armor on the infantry, while early muskets were a part of a weaponry setup and not a replacement. Guns, germs, AND steel were all requirements for the success of the conquistadores in their conquest of the Americas.

The Qunari are not a musket military, they remain a melee infantry military. They have cannons, but it's not cannons that matter. It's the guns we've yet to see or hear of from the Qunari.

If you did the Gaatlok quests in DA2, you'll know that dwarven powders are still far, far inferior to the Qunari version. Dwarf blasting powder requires extremely expensive ingredients (lyrium, mainly), makes more of a mess, and is harder to keep stable. That may be why you see no dwarf cannons.

You don't need 'as good' when you have numbers.

Oh, and provide a source for the bolded bit, please; because the codex in Origins said that the middle ground fraternity was the largest.

I appologize: I should have put 'one of the largest' before.

Not that it matters, I doubt the fraternaties will hold now that the circles are all broken. 

How they break, however, will be shaped by the fraternities.

[LobselVith8]

Genitivi's codex about the Qunari and the New Exalted Marches does address that one of the two greatest advantages the Chantry had against the Qunari was the Circle of Magi, who were able to deal with their advanced technology by responding with magic. With Ferelden having tension with Orlais because some elements want to re-conquer Ferlden and the new ruler (for a Magi Hero of Ferelden who asked for the boon) agreed and proclaimed that the mages of the Ferelden Circle should be free, I can imagine at least one nation that won't side with Orlais in the coming war. I'm fairly certain that Cassandra would not even bother trying to find Hawke to talk down the mages (at least for the pro-Kirkwall Circle apostate Hawke) if success against the Circles was going to be easy or guaranteed. I think the mages have a fairly good chance since they all broke free from the Chantry, and the Templar Order is no longer taking orders from the Chantry.

[Taleroth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

 With Ferelden having tension with Orlais because some elements want to re-conquer Ferlden and the new ruler (for a Magi Hero of Ferelden who asked for the boon) agreed and proclaimed that the mages of the Ferelden Circle should be free, I can imagine at least one nation that won't side with Orlais in the coming war.

Two things I want to mention here.  The first is that Alistair is protecting Apostates.  Which I find wonderful.  I don't know if that's because the game recognized the boon even though Origins itself didn't or if that's just the default state for King Alistair.  Not arguing, I'm just glad that's going on.

The other is that it's not actually Orlais in this war.  Varric says that the Templars left the Chantry.  Essentially the Templars have gone back to their pre-Chantry vigilante days.

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 mars 2011 - 04:18 .

[RolandX9]

Anyone remember the assault on the Circle? Templars cutting through mages like a scythe through wheat. Unless you've got a Warden Mage who asked the Fereldan monarch to free their Circle, they've got nowhere to run, unless the Dalish decide to ally with humans (and the Black City freezes over). Sure, I'd love to see New Arlathan kick the butt of every templar out there. Not. Going. To. Happen. Mages better get used to living like Dalish, or all of Thedas should get ready to embrace the Qun. As Sandal would say, boom.

Modifié par RolandX9, 16 mars 2011 - 04:22 .