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[lost lupus]

mages have a chance for one simple reason

they are not an organised group,
some will flee to tivinter
some will (stupidly) go home
some will head into the woods
some will form small bands and try to fight

the point is it will be a gurrilla war like no other an army marches on it stomach this isnt an exaulted march
you have to direct templars EVERYWHERE a mage could be thin's your number's and your resources not to mention this would be a very very long war

whilst one lot of mages could be defeated in one spot another group is forming 10,000km's away can they win out right no but is it possible that the templars would be forced to give up due to unrest or a lack of funds and troops?

how would moral be after 10 battles? after 1000?
not to mention most mages arent taught how to defend themselves in an armed fight (in fact the templars seemed to have forbid it in fereldon) what happens if they learn swordfighting as well?

not to mention bobby traps and magic mines after all mages will be on the defensive and couter attack its the templars hunting them they are the organised unit once broken mages are ok so they can win it wont be easy and will take awhile................ and personally i think it will end with treaties rather then outright victory for ethier side

will tivinter get invovled? now thats a good question!
on one hand it could be a power grab
on the other fight thedas and qunari would be sucide
but then again it would further strengthen the resolve of all tivinter if history is anything to go by

and if they did get invovled could they survive such a war?

[Everwarden]

RolandX9 wrote...

Anyone remember the assault on the Circle? Templars cutting through mages like a scythe through wheat.

No. That is entirely wrong. I award you no points, and declare your post to be the most epic of fail.

Templars did not cut through mages like a scythe through wheat, mages killed all of the templars in the tower, lost control, and demons took over and wiped almost everyone in the tower out. The credit of most mage deaths goes to Uldred, who sparked the conflict. The templars turned out to be entirely useless when exactly what they were supposed to be guarding against actually happened. 

The four or five templar survivors had to hide behind a big door and wait for some major reinforcements to clean out the demons and abominations. Keep in mind that this failure happened within their element, when they were prepared and the mages were caged. Now the mages are all free, and the templars are forced to fight mages in the open. Guerilla warfare seems something that mages will be far, far better at than templars.

Were I in control of the mage army that is sure to form, I'd just pick a nice spot and settle a city. Somewhere high up, so any approaching army will be subjected to fiery doom before even reaching the gates. Mageville, now that's where I want the next DA game set. 

[Distilled]

I'd say they have a fair chance until some flawed character learns how to summon one minor demon and cause all the mages in the area to somehow fail immensely and become abominations within hours or slaughter themselves with immense determination.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ever, I believe Roland was referring to the actual set-piece battle between mages and Templars we do see, at the climax of DA2. In which, yes, the Templars more or less cut through mage resistance with ease, Hawke or no.

Certainly that battlefield was far more typical than the by-total-surprise abomination fest of Uldrid's blood mage rebellion in Origins, in which everyone BUT the blood mages was taken completely by surprise, and even then the Templars locked down the tower for an indeffinite period.

[Aynslie]

Lithuasil wrote...

He certainly succeeded in making the mages struggles more accessible to the mundane, and furthering compassion, showing everyone that mages, even if left their freedom, can be nice, restraint, level headed... ok, ok, I'll stop now.

LOL yea he really showed everyone how harmless abominations can be! 

Anyway, Mage v. Templar will end very badly for the mages unless they have non-mage help.  Consider this:  Mages stand no chance against the Templar abilities unless they turn to blood magic, which corrupts the mages minds unless they are strong willed to actually control it, it seems (Warden, Merrill, Hawke).  But we can agree that most blood mages go off the deep end.  

That being said, even if the mages do win the battle against the Templars using blood magic, the only tool they have against the Templars, they now have to overcome the demons that are taking control of them (because we all know that is what comes next).

The only way I can see the mages not turning to blood magic is if non-mage armies side with them and giving them the ability to fight against the Templars without making deals with Demons.  This seems doubtful though.

More than likely the Tevinter Magisters will be involved with this and a real threat of being dominated by mages will rise again through out Thedas.  It just  seems like they would be the ones to organize the mages into a strong enough force.  I think it would be interesting to see an Exhalted March on the mages, despite being a mage sympathizer.  But then again after DAII it is really hard to sympathize with the plight of the mages.

To paraphrase Hawke:  Just once I would like to go a week without running into some insane mage.  Just one week.

Modifié par Aynslie, 16 mars 2011 - 05:24 .

[Darian Tylmare]

You can'T forget mages have the ability to control other peoples minds and so can raise huge armies relativily easy. And besides, not everyone can kill people by muttering words and than let a fireball explode in the middle of them.
Mages do stand a chance because they are very powerful individuals without further assistence or equipment.
And the single greatest human culture in Thedas, the Tevinter Empire, was founded in the power of their mages.

[Dean_the_Young]

lost lupus wrote...

mages have a chance for one simple reason

they are not an organised group,
some will flee to tivinter
some will (stupidly) go home
some will head into the woods
some will form small bands and try to fight

the point is it will be a gurrilla war like no other an army marches on it stomach this isnt an exaulted march
you have to direct templars EVERYWHERE a mage could be thin's your number's and your resources not to mention this would be a very very long war

whilst one lot of mages could be defeated in one spot another group is forming 10,000km's away can they win out right no but is it possible that the templars would be forced to give up due to unrest or a lack of funds and troops?

how would moral be after 10 battles? after 1000?
not to mention most mages arent taught how to defend themselves in an armed fight (in fact the templars seemed to have forbid it in fereldon) what happens if they learn swordfighting as well?

not to mention bobby traps and magic mines after all mages will be on the defensive and couter attack its the templars hunting them they are the organised unit once broken mages are ok so they can win it wont be easy and will take awhile................ and personally i think it will end with treaties rather then outright victory for ethier side

will tivinter get invovled? now thats a good question!
on one hand it could be a power grab
on the other fight thedas and qunari would be sucide
but then again it would further strengthen the resolve of all tivinter if history is anything to go by

and if they did get invovled could they survive such a war?

Historical appeals to guerilla war really need to look at the success rate of guerilla warfare in general. While it's a wonderful attrition tactic in the sense of using third party rebels against an occupier, it's been incredibly... unsuccessful in actually forcing an army away against it's will. Especially when guerilla warfare is dependent on the acceptence of the populace, which is rather hard when the vast majority of the population hates and fears mages and favor the Templars and Chantry.

There really isn't a meaningful historic example of an unpopular guerilla force pushing an army away. Armies leave on their own accord, or because another army pushes them out.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Indeed, successful guerilla warfare necessitates a large scale grassroot movement. It's like what Mao calls it. "A People's war". The mages are unlikely to mobilize popular support in their favor to be able to fight a "People's war".

Unpopular guerilla warfare would be a noisy nuissance at best.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 05:27 .

[Aynslie]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

I really doubt it. Common people aren't going to care about the freedom of mages, just like they don't care about the lives of elves. They worship Andraste and believe in what the Chantry teaches, so the Templar forces would have a huge numbers advantage. Then again, wouldn't it be in Tevinter's interest to aid the Circles? Hm... You know what? I'm not even sure. The only thing I can reasonably speculate on is the invasion from the Qunari to mop the floor with whoever survives.

It would be in tevinters intrests to expand the power of their empire.. They dont give a damn about the mages outside their empire.. And if mages flocked to their empire, that would annoy them even more. Since that means competition in politics.. and they wont like that.. So I doubt the circles would get tevinter support

Aren't they compelled to aid the Chantry if there is an Exhalted March, or is that possibility out of the question?  In fact, exactly where is this war going to take place?  I thought the epilogue mentioned all the Circles across Thedas rebelling... Also, if they can convince more mages to join their empire, their power grows, and they have to be considering another conquest of Thedas... if they could get all the Circles to see them as allies, wouldn't that help them in the end?

Whatever... like I said, I have no idea how this would play out.  Just tossing around ideas really.

The Chantry outside that of the "Black Divine" is not recognised outside Tevinter, they will ignore and call for an exalted march.. The Magisters are power hungry and greedy.. They definitly wouldn't see mages flocking to their empire as a good thing.. I remember either a dev or codex entry saying that they wouldn't like this because since mages are essentially running the show in tevinter, they wont want political competition. Sure it adds to the strength of the empire.. But the mages will fail to see how it will benefit them personally.. These new mages will only be a thorn in their side. They wont want them there and will attempt to stop them from heading to Tevinter

Wouldn't more mages help thwart the Qunari Threat?  The Qunari are more afraid of mages than anyone else on Thedas it seems.  Not to mention that a mage seems to be able to cut through Qunari like butter...or is that just Hawke?

[Pileyourbodies]

The mages Cannot win. they have 0 chance of winning. If they beat the templars through demonic possession then demons win not mages. If they revert to blood magic then the civilian populations rise up against them and mages lose due to sheer numbers. If the mages go to Tevinter odds are Tevinter will KILL THEM, the Tevinters keep their power by being the only ones with any power if every mage in thedas started to go up to Tevinter then the Magistrates will lose a lot of their power they don't like this very much.
There is not a chance that the Mages can win.

[lost lupus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Historical appeals to guerilla war really need to look at the success rate of guerilla warfare in general. While it's a wonderful attrition tactic in the sense of using third party rebels against an occupier, it's been incredibly... unsuccessful in actually forcing an army away against it's will. Especially when guerilla warfare is dependent on the acceptence of the populace, which is rather hard when the vast majority of the population hates and fears mages and favor the Templars and Chantry.

There really isn't a meaningful historic example of an unpopular guerilla force pushing an army away. Armies leave on their own accord, or because another army pushes them out.

i fully execpt that which is why i stated it would be a guerilla war unlike any other they wont be an organised force by ay means most wont even think of fighting but because the templars are hunting them they will be forced to fight

example a mage hides in a town no one will even know a mage was there untill the templars come looking then its fireballs and demons this can happen anywhere at anytime

small bands will of course fight the difference is your not looking at a goal of trying to drive the army out only survive and escape this forces the templars to chase down the enemy they can only do this whilst keeping everyone fit and fed
their isnt any C130's to fly in supplies its horse and cart and on foot with battles being small and across vast distances an army my have to travel for days to face a few mages that are supposedly in some woods
by the time they get there the mages may be gone

as i stated if the army left it would be because of unrest or because supplies dwindle
hell if a band of mages was running from the templars they could quiet easly steal what food they can from a few farmers then raise them to the ground this limits the armies resupplies

and as you said the mages arent going to be well liked but how long will it take people to start getting pissed at the templars coming in and seizing food or demanding arm's possibly conscripting

and your not talking about just one country your talking about a contient for these grous to hide yes they will have to live like the dalish constantly moving or hiding the point is to defeat them the templars MUST chase them

[LobselVith8]

The Order of Templars broke free from the Chantry, too, Pileyourbodies. Who is the Chantry going to order to go after the mages when their military had an insurrection?

[Pileyourbodies]

The templars broke away to go after the mages even more harshly. The templars arn't the only military order in the chantry.

[Everwarden]

Pileyourbodies wrote...
There is not a chance that the Mages can win.

There's no chance they'll break free of the circles, either!

...ohwait.

[Pileyourbodies]

Everwarden even if they win they lose.

[Dean_the_Young]

Everwarden wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...
There is not a chance that the Mages can win.

There's no chance they'll break free of the circles, either!

...ohwait.

It's easy to start a rebellion: all you rwally need is a large number of people willing to die.

Winning a rebellion, on the other hand, requires a lot more.

[Dean_the_Young]

lost lupus wrote...

i fully execpt that which is why i stated it would be a guerilla war unlike any other they wont be an organised force by ay means most wont even think of fighting but because the templars are hunting them they will be forced to fight

example a mage hides in a town no one will even know a mage was there untill the templars come looking then its fireballs and demons this can happen anywhere at anytime

This already can happen anywhere at anytime. This is exactly what has been happening in Kirkwall for years, and that hardly slowed even the moderate Templars, or the populace.

Mages who want to fight rather than go back already can, and do. Mages who want to hide will keep their heads down.

small bands will of course fight the difference is your not looking at a goal of trying to drive the army out only survive and escape this forces the templars to chase down the enemy they can only do this whilst keeping everyone fit and fed

The Templars aren't an occupying force, they are an inquisition force supported by the vast majority of Thedas. The only people they have to keep fed are themselves, and that can largely be done as it always has been: by getting supplies from the locals.

their isnt any C130's to fly in supplies its horse and cart and on foot with battles being small and across vast distances an army my have to travel for days to face a few mages that are supposedly in some woods
by the time they get there the mages may be gone

Why on earth would they send an entire army against a few mages? Templars don't need a hundred to one advantage: prepared Templars

as i stated if the army left it would be because of unrest or because supplies dwindle
hell if a band of mages was running from the templars they could quiet easly steal what food they can from a few farmers then raise them to the ground this limits the armies resupplies

Marginally hinders Templar resupply, entirely makes the mages even less supported by the populace, who will be even more willing to share information or what supplies they do have.

and as you said the mages arent going to be well liked but how long will it take people to start getting pissed at the templars coming in and seizing food or demanding arm's possibly conscripting

Since the Templars don't have to do that, a good while for the most part.

and your not talking about just one country your talking about a contient for these grous to hide yes they will have to live like the dalish constantly moving or hiding the point is to defeat them the templars MUST chase them

Or ambush them. Or see them fight and die amongst themselves, and commoners opposed to them. Or convince them to give up. Or just enter the entire status quo ante, in which the Templars guard their own Circle and spend their lives hunting down apostates and escaped mages as they can.

If the Circles break apart, the mages who would actually organize and fight will have already lost much of their strength, and danger, and the entire thing becomes a return to what the Templar system has always been: hunting down escaped mages, capturing or killing them, and rebuilding the Circles, all from a position of strength. Even if it was a task of generations, and many of the escaped mages just kept their heads low and were never found before they passed away from old age, it would just be the exact same system as before: mages who can stay free are free, mages who can't are locked away or killed.

That isn't a guerilla war. That's just a mass jail break.

[Everwarden]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Everwarden even if they win they lose.

How? By rebelling they are refusing to be leashed. If they lose, they die, but aren't leashed. If they win, no leash. Your comment is nonsensical.

[Everwarden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Winning a rebellion, on the other hand, requires a lot more.

By breaking free of the circles they have already accomplished the hardest part. They are no longer confined to closed quarter combat, and are no longer under constant watch by mage specialists. What stops the mages from grouping up, taking a high spot overlooking a valley, and just putting any army that approaches through a meat grinder before they even have a chance to fight back? 

[RolandX9]

Everwarden wrote...

RolandX9 wrote...

Anyone remember the assault on the Circle? Templars cutting through mages like a scythe through wheat.

No. That is entirely wrong. I award you no points, and declare your post to be the most epic of fail.

This is the Dragon Age II forum. You may want to look at the Topic section we're in. I was referring to what happens during Meredith's attack before a) Hawke starts laying down the hurt and  Orsino goes blood simple. Remember how many bodies he had available?

The templars in Origins, which you appear to be referring to, were a) taken by surprise and  waiting for reinforcements so they could perform the aforementioned scythe-through-ripe-wheat impression. You may also recall that if you don't save Irving, this is so foregone a conclusion the game doesn't bother going into the mop-up. Where was the epic fail, again?

Modifié par RolandX9, 16 mars 2011 - 06:49 .

[RazorrX]

To listen to the Templar Rhetoric for WHY they lock up Mages - If 1 in 10 go bat **** crazy - the world will burn.

1 in 10.

Now all of them are fighting. So either the Templar Manifesto is inherently flawed and thus needs to be thrown out and a do over (which it does) OR the mages will win. How many mages to wipe out an entire city? 5, 10, 50, 100? Are there rituals for say mass metor storm? How about a ritual that causes a volcano to erupt? Or the water to become poison? There are thousands of mages free and fighting. They look like everyone else. (apparently the robes and sticks are not a give away). It is not a case of guerilla warfare where the forces are equal or the guerillas are slightly under powered, it is the case of the guerillas having nukes and the army does not.

[Everwarden]

RolandX9 wrote...

The templars in Origins, which you appear to be referring to, were a) taken by surprise and  waiting for reinforcements so they could perform the aforementioned scythe-through-ripe-wheat impression. You may also recall that if you don't save Irving, this is so foregone a conclusion the game doesn't bother going into the mop-up. Where was the epic fail, again?

Ah, that was the only time I could think of templars going through mages like a scythe through wheat. It looked to me like the mages were putting up a fight in DA2, though I guess I'll have to retract my statement.

Statement retracted.

[Darian Tylmare]

I think the most likely analogy to this are mutants in the marvel comics.
There are few of them with great spans of power between them, but most are much more powerful than a normal person. They are hated by a big part of the majority.
But, mages, like everybody else, need rest. I think they are overstimated quite a bit because people tend to foget that they can't go around casting fireballs endlessly. They do stand a chance if they play their cards right, but they also can easily wiped out because they don't know what they are doing.

[MortalEngines]

Everwarden wrote...

By breaking free of the circles they have already accomplished the hardest part. They are no longer confined to closed quarter combat, and are no longer under constant watch by mage specialists. What stops the mages from grouping up, taking a high spot overlooking a valley, and just putting any army that approaches through a meat grinder before they even have a chance to fight back? 

I disagree, breaking free is the easiest part. In that you have the advantage of surprise and the fact you have dwindle their numbers before they are aware of the conflict about the explode (And even then if not for Hawke the mages would of lost in Kirkwall). The hardest part is remaining a collective threat and constant danger, no matter what you say, spreading your forces out will always weaken your strength and I highly doubt the mages are capable of actually forming and maintaining a collective army. It's far more likely they will attempt a chain of small attacks which will never succeed against a force like the Chantry.