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[Dean_the_Young]

Everwarden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Winning a rebellion, on the other hand, requires a lot more.

By breaking free of the circles they have already accomplished the hardest part. They are no longer confined to closed quarter combat, and are no longer under constant watch by mage specialists. What stops the mages from grouping up, taking a high spot overlooking a valley, and just putting any army that approaches through a meat grinder before they even have a chance to fight back? 

The fact that that's not sufficient. The Tevinter was far greater, and lost to largely non-magical armies. Even the Gallows was a largely ideal defensive position, and the Templars broke through with ease.

[RolandX9]

Everwarden wrote...

RolandX9 wrote...

The templars in Origins, which you appear to be referring to, were a) taken by surprise and  waiting for reinforcements so they could perform the aforementioned scythe-through-ripe-wheat impression. You may also recall that if you don't save Irving, this is so foregone a conclusion the game doesn't bother going into the mop-up. Where was the epic fail, again?

Ah, that was the only time I could think of templars going through mages like a scythe through wheat. It looked to me like the mages were putting up a fight in DA2, though I guess I'll have to retract my statement.

Statement retracted.

Hrm. I'll take that in the spirit I hope it's intended.

Look, I happen to be very, very pro-mage. I personally loathe the aforementioned cutscene. But it sure as hell looked to me like five-ish mages were getting sliced open for every templar that might have gone down (again, before Hawke is in the picture). Plus, you know, templars charging in and mages running like he...ck. Really, it was more than a little crazy for the mages to all be milling around like that for convenient slaughtering, but that's a whole other topic.

The whole point is that narrative seems to tell us that templars can curbstomp mages. Sure, gameplay says something else (I do so love what Force Magic does to most templar charges *eg*), but anything that Hawke & co/ aren't doing personally will be handled through narrative. Which means the rebel Circles are in a lot of trouble in most continuities. Now, if you happen to have had a Mage Warden who freed the Fereldan Circle and made Alistair king...

[MDT1]

Normally I would say the mages have no chance without the help of Tevinter as the templars everywhere should be able to annul their own circles as this is part of their job description

[Everwarden]

MortalEngines wrote...
I disagree, breaking free is the easiest part. In that you have the advantage of surprise and the fact you have dwindle their numbers before they are aware of the conflict about the explode (And even then if not for Hawke the mages would of lost in Kirkwall).

Well that kinda defeats the entire point of having templars 'guarding' mages, doesn't it? They're supposed to be constantly watching for threats. If the mages manage to surprise guards who are supposed to be prepared, I don't think one could argue in favor of the templars being good at what they do. 

The hardest part is remaining a collective threat and constant danger, no matter what you say, spreading your forces out will always weaken your strength and I highly doubt the mages are capable of actually forming and maintaining a collective army. It's far more likely they will attempt a chain of small attacks which will never succeed against a force like the Chantry.

Well, the mages are free now. Are you arguing that they won't be able to remain free, or that they won't be able to topple the largest religion in the world? If the mages form a city-state in a defensible location, I can't imagine any size army of normals breaking into it and killing them all, but I don't think I'd argue that the mages could destroy the chantry in its entirety*, because it's just too big. 

*Though if the end of DA2 is any clue, it does seem that the Chantry is reeling from the blow they've been dealt right now, so I might be wrong about this. 

[Dean_the_Young]

MortalEngines wrote...
(And even then if not for Hawke the mages would of lost in Kirkwall).

But... the mages did lose in Kirkwall. Bloodily and messily. You didn't win the battle or stop the Annulment as a whole, you simply got to walk away.

[Taleroth]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

MortalEngines wrote...
(And even then if not for Hawke the mages would of lost in Kirkwall).

But... the mages did lose in Kirkwall. Bloodily and messily. You didn't win the battle or stop the Annulment as a whole, you simply got to walk away.

Yeah.

Those mages who fled after the Harvester appears?  They ran right to the Templars intending to butcher them.

[RazorrX]

It is unknown how many mages survived, I know I saved a few on my way to the Circle. We know there was at least 1 secret tunnel that lead out of the circle that Anders used as his rail road to get them to freedom, etc.   Add to that it is quite possible that Merideth had already Tranquiled the most powerful mages in the circle.

Also remember:  It is the mages vs the Templars.  Not the chantry.  The chantry apparently tried to negotiate and the Templars broke away from it.

So the Chantry is falling apart at the same time the war is on.

Modifié par RazorrX, 16 mars 2011 - 07:11 .

[Everwarden]

RolandX9 wrote...
Hrm. I'll take that in the spirit I hope it's intended.

I was wrong. I admit I was wrong. That's the spirit I intended.

Look, I happen to be very, very pro-mage. I personally loathe the aforementioned cutscene. But it sure as hell looked to me like five-ish mages were getting sliced open for every templar that might have gone down (again, before Hawke is in the picture). Plus, you know, templars charging in and mages running like he...ck. Really, it was more than a little crazy for the mages to all be milling around like that for convenient slaughtering, but that's a whole other topic.
 

I hated the cutscene as well. I can kind of understand why the mages might be easy to kill when pinned against the wall and outnumbered, but I still found it difficult to swallow given all information we've recieved up to that point. In every other lore snippet with a mage and a templar before, the mage is a serious threat. The DAO codex entry on abominations comes to mind, where a band of templars almost wet themselves at the sight of one corrupted mage.

The templars didn't even use any anti-magic tricks, they just roflstomped the mages. If mages are that impotent, why even bother having specialized guards in the first place? Why not just send rent-a-cops with foam bats to guard them?

/nerd rage off.

[Kyosukedei]

At this point either my Mage rules the world, OR my Warden who becomes king then leaves the throne with Morg rules the world. OR God baby =)

Honestly, I feel for the templers and the mages at the same time. I also feel that you need both in order to maintain order, and less fear.

Of course we can always go with the idea of Sorcerer Kings... =o

Yea like you see tons of dead templers at the beginning dead when you land your boat. But all of a sudden none of the mages can cast a single aoe spell?

Modifié par Kyosukedei, 16 mars 2011 - 07:22 .

[Wulfram]

They've maybe got the strength, potentially. But they need to stop turning into abominations at the drop of a hat, or they won't exist as a faction which can ultimately make it's peace with the world.

[Lithuasil]

Everwarden wrote...



I hated the cutscene as well. I can kind of understand why the mages might be easy to kill when pinned against the wall and outnumbered, but I still found it difficult to swallow given all information we've recieved up to that point. In every other lore snippet with a mage and a templar before, the mage is a serious threat. The DAO codex entry on abominations comes to mind, where a band of templars almost wet themselves at the sight of one corrupted mage.

The templars didn't even use any anti-magic tricks, they just roflstomped the mages. If mages are that impotent, why even bother having specialized guards in the first place? Why not just send rent-a-cops with foam bats to guard them?

/nerd rage off.

The thing is - a mage who has trained his combatskills, and has the nerve to flee the circle / stay free is a serious threat. Add in bloodmagic, summoned demons, walking dead and we have templars rightfully soiling their undergarments. But how many mages fit that description?
Mages, being taken from their families at a young age, raised in circles to keep them from becoming dangerous, are or the most part socially inept scholars. Sure, they might know how to cast a fireball, but knowing that, and actually successfully taking part in combat, that's two different things. I mean even Orsino didn't fit that description - he managed to hold back a few people, due to being the most powerful mage in the city - but there's like 12-13 first enchanters. The templars on the other hand are all soldiers, hardened in battle and trained to specifically fight mages. Against a mage that has seen and survived combat, and is willing to fight to his death, that's necessary. Against a mage that spent the better part of his life reading books and healing, who never so much as cut himself, that's total overkill.

[MortalEngines]

Everwarden wrote...
Well that kinda defeats the entire point of having templars 'guarding' mages, doesn't it? They're supposed to be constantly watching for threats. If the mages manage to surprise guards who are supposed to be prepared, I don't think one could argue in favor of the templars being good at what they do.

And the police are constantly watching for criminals, doesn't stop them being caught by surprised or infiltrated from within. The templars aren't an infalliable force and in Kirkwall they were already distracted by an unreasonable leader and in-fighting. It was easy for the mages to break free.

Well, the mages are free now. Are you arguing that they won't be able to remain free, or that they won't be able to topple the largest religion in the world? If the mages form a city-state in a defensible location, I can't imagine any size army of normals breaking into it and killing them all, but I don't think I'd argue that the mages could destroy the chantry in its entirety*, because it's just too big. 

No, you missed my point entirely. I argued that the mages will be unable to form a COLLECTIVE FORCE. Sure they can band together into small groups, but then it just becomes a case of the Chantry taking out one by one. Seeing as most circles differ in attitude, culture and how mages belong to different fraternites and see alternatives ways of power (some don't approve of blood magic), I can't imagine mages joining up together in a force large enough to take out the chantry and any non-magical forces who join into the fray.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
But... the mages did lose in Kirkwall. Bloodily and messily. You didn't win the battle or stop the Annulment as a whole, you simply got to walk away.

Depends what you consider losing as. In the end, the Templars backed down and allowed any mages and Hawke to leave. I see that as somewhat winning. Also these mages were able to incite riots later on, again, I see this as winning.

I get your point though.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 16 mars 2011 - 07:58 .

[Chadthesad]

I'm curious what exactly happens with the Ferelden templars/circle. Irving had a nice relationship with Greagoir.Let's just assume Irving survived the events in Origins. Eight to ten years passed, what happened over in Ferelden to cause a rebellion? Templar's were also starting to leave the order. It seemed like every mage, become a abomination too towards the games end. Except for the circle mages you had to fight. Blood magic is not inherently "evil" either, it all depends on the individual that uses it.

[LobselVith8]

Mortal, how is the Chantry going to take out the Circles one by one when the Order of Templars have defected from them as well? Varric said the Chantry was "in pieces." And if Cassandra is trying to get Hawke to talk down the mages, I don't think victory is so certain for the Chantry if their military is no longer following their orders.

[Medhia Nox]

They really don't. Every commoner is going to turn against them for what Anders did. They will have no support.

Where are they going to get food? Shelter?

Every commoner who sees someone do magic is going to gather a mob - sure, dozens will die, but numbers will win out and the mages will be dragged to the village square and burned at the stake. And unlike our real witch burnings - they will be totally justified to do so. (not really of course - lumping everyone as evil is exactly what made Anders an evil terrorist). What if THIS mage wants to magic up a bomb? Blow up their town?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 16 mars 2011 - 08:10 .

[Taleroth]

MortalEngines wrote...

No, you missed my point entirely. I argued that the mages will be unable to form a COLLECTIVE FORCE. Sure they can band together into small groups, but then it just becomes a case of the Chantry taking out one by one. Seeing as most circles differ in attitude, culture and how mages belong to different fraternites and see alternatives ways of power (some don't approve of blood magic), I can't imagine mages joining up together in a force large enough to take out the chantry and any non-magical forces who join into the fray.

People having different opinions and viewpoints does not prevent them from working together.  That line of reasoning is simply absurd.  They share a common enemy and a common goal.

It's not like the Mages are so disagreeable that they've started murdering each other in their beds.  They've gotten along more or less civily for ages.

Real life wars have created far stranger bedfellows.

[Lithuasil]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mortal, how is the Chantry going to take out the Circles one by one when the Order of Templars have defected from them as well? Varric said the Chantry was "in pieces." And if Cassandra is trying to get Hawke to talk down the mages, I don't think victory is so certain for the Chantry if their military is no longer following their orders.

You assume, the chantry would want a crushing victory, but can't reach it. The chantry wants to protect mages from themselves. I'd interpret the templars breaking free from the chantry as "The templars invoke a general annulment on everyone magical, and the chantry disagrees". The templars can, and probably will, crush what opposition the mages will put up, but the chantry doesn't entirely consist of extremists - maybe they don't want every mage killed?

(Note that none of this will keep me from siding with the mages in da3 anyway )

[LobselVith8]

You assume the Chantry wants to protect the mages instead of continuing their slavery of them, Lithuasil. Many people in Thedas hate mages because of religious indoctrination about mages being "cursed" which is why Andrastian societies treat mages so much differently than the Chasind, the Dalish, the people of Rivain, and even the people of Haven. Considering the Circles have broken free from the Chantry so far, I wouldn't so easily dismiss their chances of success.

[Lithuasil]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You assume the Chantry wants to protect the mages instead of continuing their slavery of them, Lithuasil. Many people in Thedas hate mages because of religious indoctrination about mages being "cursed" which is why Andrastian societies treat mages so much differently than the Chasind, the Dalish, the people of Rivain, and even the people of Haven. Considering the Circles have broken free from the Chantry so far, I wouldn't so easily dismiss their chances of success.

Continuing their slavery is what they call protecting. And we actually don't get to know if the circles broke free. "They rose up and set the world on fire" yes, but technically that whole stunt uldred pulled was an uprising (and plenty of things and people got lit on fire). How many mages were freed in the process again?

I'm sure there's some chance of success for the mages if it's going to be the core conflict of the next installment, and I'd side with the mages even if there explicitly wasn't. Judging by what info we have however, the best the mages can hope for, is that some manage to flee and lay low, and that the chantry regains control of the templars so status quo can be restored, as opposed to the templar favored Magocide.

[Taleroth]

Here's a hint. If you have to say "what they call" then it's not actually that.

[Everwarden]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Where are they going to get food? Shelter?

Perhaps the idea of 'magic' is still eluding you. Even if they can't just summon food (which I admit doesn't sound fitting for the world), I can certainly see a mage forcing a crop to grow with magic. 

Every commoner who sees someone do magic is going to gather a mob - sure, dozens will die, but numbers will win out and the mages will be dragged to the village square and burned at the stake.

I honestly don't see how a mass of farmers armed with pitch forks and shovels is going to take on even a small band of mages who can lob metaphorical artillery shells at them. Further, the people will likely be much more forgiving when they discover that mages don't have two horns and a tail like the Chantry has told them, but they're just normal people with powers. 

This is evidenced by the scene in Dragon Age II where an angry mob is willing to kill you to protect a good hearted mage who just wants to heal people. 

[Everwarden]

Taleroth wrote...

Here's a hint. If you have to say "what they call" then it's not actually that.

Er.. a quote from the person you're referencing would be helpful, with what they said that you're objecting to. 

[AtreiyaN7]

Well, I like to think that with my mage Hawke around (somewhere), eventually the rebellion will be successful. Seriously though, I don't want to see the rise of another Imperium, but at this point it seems as if a diplomatic outcome is highly unlikely (probably a major understatement), especially with the Kirkwall Chantry's destruction. It seems like liberty or death are the only options for the mages. Didn't Varric's narration at the end include something about the mages burning their way across Thedas? It sounds like they're not having all that much trouble as yet, although I'm going to have to go listen to the ending again to check. In any case, unchained and unfettered by the Circle rules and the templars, I think the mages have a chance.

[Dean_the_Young]

Everwarden wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...
Where are they going to get food? Shelter?

Perhaps the idea of 'magic' is still eluding you. Even if they can't just summon food (which I admit doesn't sound fitting for the world), I can certainly see a mage forcing a crop to grow with magic. 

Every commoner who sees someone do magic is going to gather a mob - sure, dozens will die, but numbers will win out and the mages will be dragged to the village square and burned at the stake.

I honestly don't see how a mass of farmers armed with pitch forks and shovels is going to take on even a small band of mages who can lob metaphorical artillery shells at them. Further, the people will likely be much more forgiving when they discover that mages don't have two horns and a tail like the Chantry has told them, but they're just normal people with powers. 

A bunch of peasants is pretty much what overthrough the Tevinter Imperium, which was far greater and not only had blood mages but great conventional armies as well.

This is evidenced by the scene in Dragon Age II where an angry mob is willing to kill you to protect a good hearted mage who just wants to heal people.

And countered quite a lot of the rest of the time, in which plenty of people you run into are terrified of the magical.

[Taleroth]

Everwarden wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Here's a hint. If you have to say "what they call" then it's not actually that.

Er.. a quote from the person you're referencing would be helpful, with what they said that you're objecting to. 

First sentence of the person above my post.  In fact, if you do a search for "what they call" on the page, there's only one post other than mine.

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 mars 2011 - 08:47 .