209 réponses à ce sujet

[TexasToast712]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...


Its a major plot hole as they really dont have a chance. There are 14 Circles in Thedas and each one has what? about 200 to 300 mages a Circle while the countries of Thedas outnumber them 4 to 1. Its a plot hole.

That doesn't make it a plot hole, only a doomed (but fearsomely costly) rebellion.

Excellent point.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TexasToast712 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's a social attitude that can be partially attributed to the Chantry itself. And from what we have seen, it's not really trying to change that attitude.

Now the fear of magic is not an unreasonable sentiment, but it could be moderated more if the Chantry was willing to. And not only by retthoric. But also by actively trying to integrate mages into society, gradually. The Circle, in its current form, practically isolates mages.

Have you heard of the Tevinter Imperium and the Magisters? That is what happens when mages are allowed status in society. What the Chantry does isnt perfect but the alternative is much worse.

And why impose a false dichotomy where you either have mages in power, or mages quarantined? Can't there be social integration without a magocracy? 

Barring the fact that I think the Tevinter Imperium is not as horrific as Chantry propaganda would have us believe, the idea that the Tevinter Imperium has to justify everything the Chantry does, because it's either Tevinter or Chantry, is way too simplistic and limited.

Mages can be integrated into society, and some can achieve status, without it becoming a magocracy. Just like supervision over the mages does not necessarily have to mean an enfringement on their rights, or a lot of their rights.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 09:31 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

TexasToast712 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's a social attitude that can be partially attributed to the Chantry itself. And from what we have seen, it's not really trying to change that attitude.

Now the fear of magic is not an unreasonable sentiment, but it could be moderated more if the Chantry was willing to. And not only by retthoric. But also by actively trying to integrate mages into society, gradually. The Circle, in its current form, practically isolates mages.

Have you heard of the Tevinter Imperium and the Magisters? That is what happens when mages are allowed status in society. What the Chantry does isnt perfect but the alternative is much worse.

So because one society of mages made a morally questionable country you're going to make a broad statement and claim that all mages would do the exact same thing? Orlais is a human country that took over Fereldan and spent its time raping its women and killing the men are we then to say that humans can't be trusted to have any kind of standing because that group did evil things?

[Medhia Nox]

Thank you Dean, at least there are some Aequatarians left after this madness.

So long as they allowed me, as a mage, I'd be working with the Chantry to put the mages back into their Circles. Yes, I want things to be better for "my people" - but not through violence and rebellion.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 16 mars 2011 - 09:32 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Everwarden wrote...

Any entirely reasonable solution that I'm sure some templar shill will dislike on principle. 

How about on practical concern instead?

Preventative medicine is often far more effective, and cheaper, than reactive medication. If your priorities are the general public's safety, reacting after a mage has had a tough period and gone crazy doesn't necessarily meet the primary goal of the circle system, which is to keep magi in a place where their self-destruction doesn't endanger the general public as a whole.

When Uldrid and his group went abomination, the fallout, and casualties, were confined to the Tower.

When Conner went abomination, not even from personal malice or temptation bus simply in response to his father coming down with a case of external factors, an entire major settlement was almost (or was entirely, depending on the Warden) wiped out.


Who's well-being you prioritize is just as relevant as who you shill for.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 mars 2011 - 09:34 .

[The Baconer]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And why impose a false dichotomy where you either have mages in power, or mages quarantined? Can't there be social integration without a magocracy? 

That's certainly the best solution, and the one that (I had hoped) my Hawke was working toward.

But then, you know, Anders.

[TexasToast712]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Barring the fact that I think the Tevinter Imperium is not as horrific as Chantry propaganda would have us believe, the idea that the Tevinter Imperium has to justify everything the Chantry does, because it's either Tevinter or Chantry, is way too simplistic and limited.

Fenris's first hand account of what he endured and saw in the Tevinter Imperium is what changed my views on the country. I dont think the Circle is perfect and a alternative needs to be found but all out mage rebellion isnt the answer..

[KnightofPhoenix]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Fenris's first hand account of what he endured and saw in the Tevinter Imperium is what changed my views on the country. I dont think the Circle is perfect and a alternative needs to be found but all out mage rebellion isnt the answer..

And I agree. I am against most kinds of revolutions and I prefer reform.

[TexasToast712]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's a social attitude that can be partially attributed to the Chantry itself. And from what we have seen, it's not really trying to change that attitude.

Now the fear of magic is not an unreasonable sentiment, but it could be moderated more if the Chantry was willing to. And not only by retthoric. But also by actively trying to integrate mages into society, gradually. The Circle, in its current form, practically isolates mages.

Have you heard of the Tevinter Imperium and the Magisters? That is what happens when mages are allowed status in society. What the Chantry does isnt perfect but the alternative is much worse.

So because one society of mages made a morally questionable country you're going to make a broad statement and claim that all mages would do the exact same thing? Orlais is a human country that took over Fereldan and spent its time raping its women and killing the men are we then to say that humans can't be trusted to have any kind of standing because that group did evil things?

I dont trust most Orlesians either.

[TexasToast712]

I.AM.DUNCAN wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Everwarden - a mage just blew up a religious center. Funny - that mage who they protected was the terrorist who did it.

Oh - and since magic is learned - you think the "Grow Crop" spell is a very popular one? "I learned 'Grow Crops' what did you learn?" "Oh, umm..." "Go on, tell me." "I learned Storm of the Century."

And then, there's the demons who are going to have a field day with this. That explosion probably just broke the Veil over Kirkwall. The city is going to probably be destroyed. Then - everywhere mages start practicing magic - the Veil is going to weaken and snap.

Remember - for all their evil - the VAST majority of mages in Tevinter are servants to the most poweful ones. Fenris tells you this when talking about Ander's stupid idea. It's still just slavery - only it's slavery to your fellow mages. The Tevinter Imperium must know how dangerous wanton spellcasting would be - and regulate it greatly.

I'm guessing the Tevinter Imperium will have a larger role to play in the next game. AKA bad guy.

They will be too busy being over run by the murderous horde in the far north. (Qunari) The Qunari will most likely be involved in the fighting seeing as how a human killed one of their 3 leaders.

[Taleroth]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Any entirely reasonable solution that I'm sure some templar shill will dislike on principle. 

How about on practical concern instead?

Preventative medicine is often far more effective, and cheaper, than reactive medication. If your priorities are the general public's safety, reacting after a mage has had a tough period and gone crazy doesn't necessarily meet the primary goal of the circle system, which is to keep magi in a place where their self-destruction doesn't endanger the general public as a whole.

When Uldrid and his group went abomination, the fallout, and casualties, were confined to the Tower.

When Conner went abomination, not even from personal malice or temptation bus simply in response to his father coming down with a case of external factors, an entire major settlement was almost (or was entirely, depending on the Warden) wiped out.


Who's well-being you prioritize is just as relevant as who you shill for.

 Except Conner happened under the old system.  Confining mages to a tower makes mages avoid being trained by other mages.  This is the situation Conner was born into.  His mother feared it, so he could not be properly trained and observed.

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 mars 2011 - 09:44 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Everwarden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I remember have a multi-page debate with people about what an ideal solution would be for mages and to put it simply we came up with this.

When a child shows signs of being a mage than blood is taken for a philactory. Then the new system ran by Mages and Templars in unison. Then the child can be taken to a circle to have his/her magic trained. The difference being that it isn't a prison, there stay is only temporary until they learn enough about their power to take part in a Harrowing.

Once they prove themselves capable of resisting demon influence they can leave the tower if they want or stay on as a teacher. If they want to leave than they are made away that they have to report to a Mage/Templar facility once a week to be checked out to assure that no demons are trying to corrupt them. Once they are checked out they are free to go. Any mage that doesn't show up for their weekly check up will be searched out using the Philactory.

And there you go a sane solution. You see mages only make deals with demons because they feel that they are forever traped and have their backs up against the wall. With this system a mage would know that they are only in the circle for a few years and then they are free to live their lives. This will make things like blood magic and making deals with demons far far less common. If a mage has nothing to fight against and nothing to gain from making deals with demons except to lose their freedom and be hunted down they won't do it.

Any entirely reasonable solution that I'm sure some templar shill will dislike on principle. 

Some Templars are insane and only want to kill mages whether they are a danger or not.

This is a completely reasonable way to deal with the problem. The Chantry's way only creates more blood mages/Abominations. 

[Everwarden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
While I certainly agree the Circles can and should be better, they are not unreasonable. Especially not in light of the situation and context in which they have been contained and managed, a broad culture that would put the mages in just as much danger from the common people as anyone else.

Mage aren't ever allowed to be in love or have children (some do it anyway and are punished), this alone is enough to dismiss the bolded statement. 

The Tevinter was largely toppled by commoners. The Darkspawn weakned it and gave those commoners the opportunity, but the Tevinter wasn't out-magiced by renegade mages.

This is relevant because it does contrast your (repeated) befuddlement as to how non-magical forces could provide credible threats to groups of magi.

No. The Tevinter Imperium was largely toppled by Dumat and a leadership vacuum.  The Tevinter Imperium (as you stated earlier, I believe) does and did have mages in the slave class ruled by the higher-up mages, so it wasn't mundanes wiping out organized mages with pitchforks, it was a complete system crash made possible only by the first blight that almost ended the world. 

Further, Andraste was either a powerful mage herself or had God literally on her side, either way disarms your notion that the collapse was commoners besting organized mages. 

My befuddlement is regarding the idea that an army is going to beat a group of well prepared, fortified mages. And I stick to that point, because the counter example you gave was invalid. The mages in control were gone, and the remaining infrastructure collapsed.

An infrastructure not built to kill non-mages, by the way, which is another problem with your counter argument. The notion I proposed was a mage army gathering in one good spot (high up, can see the surronding terrain) and letting the opposing faction break themselves trying to beat mages in a fortified position. That isn't a valid parallel to an empire falling when the mages weren't prepared for an uprising, especially not directly after a loss of leadership, their entire lyrium supply, and the first blight. 

I made one comment that I didn't buy an angry mob managing to kill organized mages, and I still don't buy that. Mobs are typically made up of individuals too cowardly to fight unless in the safety of a group, and will break at the first actual threat of danger. You're comparing a lynch mob to an army, and I reject your comparison. They're not the same thing. 

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And why impose a false dichotomy where you either have mages in power, or mages quarantined? Can't there be social integration without a magocracy? 

As a principal? Maybe. In practice? I doubt it. If you don't keep them down, they will rise up.

Mages are always going to have exceedingly powerful skills, and talents, that as a whole will make them better suited (and more useful) for advancement than the commoners. Not all mages will beat all lay persons, but in general? When it takes an exceptional muggle to match and surpass the skills and uses of an average mage, mages as a whole will assume more and more of the ranks of power.

Take any sector of influence, and it's hard to see one where mages who are not outright excluded wouldn't naturallly rise up. Commerce? Mages can make, and enchant, superior goods with less effort thanks to magic. Labor? Mages can bring up the dead to labor on their behalf, and move great things with a little bit of lyrium. Sciences? Magic is the fast track to nearly everything. Politics? As mages rise in other sectors, they'll increasingly have sway, and influence, until they get the power themselves. And then they'll have the better tools and advantages to keep it.

And that's all without a conspiracy or nefarious blood magic, which any mage can do or have access to if they want an incredibly effective, and incredibly basic, edge. Mages are people in mind, if not ability: you give  a group of men the ability to sway another's mind to their own benefit, eventually they will do it. Good reasons or selfish, but each time you do, each time it's a bit easier to justify, and then every mage has to resort to that sort of ability just to break even with other mages.

And all the while, the muggles can't compete.


So no. I don't think you could have an effective, enduring society in which mages aren't either on top or being restrained. They either have their freedoms restrained to handicap them to the level of anyone, or they have the freedom to rise up as a whole.

[barrelofmonkeyzz]

Everyone in this thread seems to be assuming that the Circles go into voluntary revolt...Let me put a different spin on the events that happened in the main story of DA2.

Year 1 - Hawke and Co. find a corrupted lyrium idol in an ancient thaig. The first thoughts that went through my mind when I saw the statues in the treasure room were "Oh crap, which one of Dirthamen's(aka Razikale's) servants did I just release? The raven of Fear or the raven Deceit? "

Turns out it's the raven of Fear based on Sandal's helpful random hints-"That island in the lake is Scary." By the way Sandal, thanks sooo much for setting us up to find that acursed thing:P

Year 4 - We're into Act 2 and all the lyrium in the surrounding area is now corrupted including, I suspect, the stuff the templars and mages are ingesting. Pretty much every mission you do has an underlying thread of Paranoia running through it and it's starting to effect your companion's behaviors. People are still mostly rational though. We find out that Kirkwall is built on the ruins of an ancient city dedicated to Dirthamen (creature codex on the Vartarrel) And bringing more Archdemony goodness into the mix, there's Merill, busily reconstructing Falon'Din's (aka Lusakan's) Eluvian by any means necessary.

Year 7 - Everyone pretty much succumbs to their fears except for Hawke who's been shown in at least 3 instances to be uniquely immune to mental compulsion. Hawke breaks the idol. Fear is released-have host will travel...

Year 10 - Between years 7 and 10, the lyrium corruption has spread into the production mines of Orzammar...which supplies the lyrium for every single Circle mage and Chantry abiding templar in Thedas. Now, imagine that what happens in the Kirkwall Circle more or less happens in every Circle.
Meanwhile the corruption is still spreading and if it manages to reach the living Stone under Orlais, it will cause the extinction of the dwarves.

Also, the armistice with the Qunari is broken and they now want to stomp the Free Marches.

Interesting times for DA ahead.

[Everwarden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Who's well-being you prioritize is just as relevant as who you shill for.

The Connor example isn't applicable because under the proposed system he'd had no real training. A week under a blood mage just doesn't count. 

[TexasToast712]

Everwarden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
While I certainly agree the Circles can and should be better, they are not unreasonable. Especially not in light of the situation and context in which they have been contained and managed, a broad culture that would put the mages in just as much danger from the common people as anyone else.

Mage aren't ever allowed to be in love or have children (some do it anyway and are punished), this alone is enough to dismiss the bolded statement. 

Wynne had a child and she isnt chained in irons. She mentions it in dialogue with Alistair.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Connor is a result of the Chantry system. He wasn't sent to the tower because his mother didn't want her son to be sent to a prison and never see or hear from him again. If the circle wasn't a prison than he would have been sent there when he showed magic and none of that would have happened.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
While I certainly agree the Circles can and should be better, they are not unreasonable. Especially not in light of the situation and context in which they have been contained and managed, a broad culture that would put the mages in just as much danger from the common people as anyone else.

Mage aren't ever allowed to be in love or have children (some do it anyway and are punished), this alone is enough to dismiss the bolded statement. 

Wynne had a child and she isnt chained in irons. She mentions it in dialogue with Alistair.

Wynne secretly concieved and then had her child stolen from her the moment it was born. Yep what a reasonable system the Chantry has.

[Everwarden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Take any sector of influence, and it's hard to see one where mages who are not outright excluded wouldn't naturallly rise up. Commerce? Mages can make, and enchant, superior goods with less effort thanks to magic. Labor? Mages can bring up the dead to labor on their behalf, and move great things with a little bit of lyrium. Sciences? Magic is the fast track to nearly everything. 

So they would be efficient workers able to produce finer goods and boost the economy? Say it ain't so! 

They could raise undead servants to act as pooper-scoopers! No longer would the common man be able to scoop poop at the same rate that the evil mage man could!

And those dastardly mages would dominate the healing industry, too! No longer would leechings and bloodletting be necessary! Those mages could make bank curing diseases! Bastards! 

I bet they could even help boost crop growth! Then, instead of mass starvation, all the people in Denerim will be fat! Fat! Do you want fat people clogging up the streets? No! You don't! 

[TexasToast712]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
While I certainly agree the Circles can and should be better, they are not unreasonable. Especially not in light of the situation and context in which they have been contained and managed, a broad culture that would put the mages in just as much danger from the common people as anyone else.

Mage aren't ever allowed to be in love or have children (some do it anyway and are punished), this alone is enough to dismiss the bolded statement. 

Wynne had a child and she isnt chained in irons. She mentions it in dialogue with Alistair.

Wynne secretly concieved and then had her child stolen from her the moment it was born. Yep what a reasonable system the Chantry has.

Oh yes it must have been very easy to hide that growing bulge on her stomach from the Templars for 9 months. /sarcasm

Modifié par TexasToast712, 16 mars 2011 - 09:55 .

[Taleroth]

TexasToast712 wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
While I certainly agree the Circles can and should be better, they are not unreasonable. Especially not in light of the situation and context in which they have been contained and managed, a broad culture that would put the mages in just as much danger from the common people as anyone else.

Mage aren't ever allowed to be in love or have children (some do it anyway and are punished), this alone is enough to dismiss the bolded statement. 

Wynne had a child and she isnt chained in irons. She mentions it in dialogue with Alistair.

Wynne secretly concieved and then had her child stolen from her the moment it was born. Yep what a reasonable system the Chantry has.

Oh yes it must have been very easy to hide that growing bulge on her stomach from the Templars for 9 months. /sarcasm

 Whether or not it was hidden seems irrelevant, n'es?

More important is the fact that her kid was stolen from her and never allowed to see it again.  There's nothing reasonable in that practice.

[Everwarden]

TexasToast712 wrote...
Oh yes it must have been very easy to hide that growing bulge on her stomach from the Templars for 9 months. /sarcasm

I don't see how her hiding or not hiding it is remotely relevant to the point. She had her baby stolen from her, something that is unacceptable and unnecessary. 

[TheCreeper]

I think the Key question is, what does the Chantry do? The Templars Abandoned the Chantry but does that Mean the Chantry is mage sympathetic now?