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[TexasToast712]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Ah I give up on this thread. Too many ignorant mage fanboys too stupid to see why they are dangerous idiots.

Mages are dangerous.
Weak willed mages usually get possessed.
Powerful mages usually want more power and consort with a demon to get it which results in possession.
There are true good mages but they are far too few in number to justify that what the Chantry does is wrong.

Maybe you could try simply disagreeing with people instead of attacking them for taking an opposing view than you do?

You guys keep ignoring the facts.

[Pileyourbodies]

Except hes right. People keep not defending mages based off of facts in the game that just arn't there and that don't support lore.

[LobselVith8]

TexasToast712 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Ah I give up on this thread. Too many ignorant mage fanboys too stupid to see why they are dangerous idiots.

Mages are dangerous.
Weak willed mages usually get possessed.
Powerful mages usually want more power and consort with a demon to get it which results in possession.
There are true good mages but they are far too few in number to justify that what the Chantry does is wrong.

Maybe you could try simply disagreeing with people instead of attacking them for taking an opposing view than you do?

You guys keep ignoring the facts.

You mean because we disagree with you? That's the entire premise of DA2 - the dicotomy between mages and templars, with flawed people who make mistakes on both sides.

[Pileyourbodies]

No you just ignore the facts, its not disagreement is disregard.

[LobselVith8]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

No you just ignore the facts, its not disagreement is disregard.

This statement isn't accurate. People have addressed the myraid of facts surrounding the debate between templars and mages in DA2, but there's no universal "right answer" in the discussion. It's a matter of personal perspective, as Hawke we can choose who we should side with and what side we think is right. It's not an issue of ignoring facts simply because we disagree with you.

[Vukodlak]

I suspect Qunari defection starts when they come into contact with those who are not of the Qun. The Qunari come to Kirkwall and are for the first time presented with the idea they could choose there own desteny. Before there life as they saw it was succeede in their roll the Qun as given them or die. The thought there was another option proably never occured to them before the ship wreck.

The Qunari system of controlling mages is slavery, each mage is bound to obey its handler. Its little different then the Tranquil solution, execpt all the powers of that mage are at the command of someone who isn't mage.

Had Isolde followed the Chantry system and not tried to subvert it, the tragedy wouldn't have occured.

If she had done that Connor never could have made the deal with the demon to save his father and the country would probably have been lost to the blight as the Warden's couldn't have rallied the country together. Remember Arl Eamon would have already been dead if not for the desire demon. By rebelling against the chantry system she unknowningly saved the country and the world from decades of combating the blight.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And if this circle had been in place,
Thedas might have suffered a great deal more outbreaks of abominations
from people who were out in areas they could do great damage when they
lost control, and not only still have mages rebelling about stealing the
children away but also non-mages outright trying to murder mages out of
fear for what could happen.

The flaw in your logic is, that in places where the Chantry doesn't control the mages, what you describe doesn't happen. Abombinations aren't a problem among the Dalish or the Rivaini witches or any place in the wilds beyond the templars reach. And while Trivinter may be ruled by the evil magisters its not plagued by rogue abominations. But mundane humans can be just as brutal tyrants as mages. Rendon Howe was probably a worse person then either Meredith or Orsino.

There has yet to be any evidence presented anywhere that the templars are actually effective at preventing abominations or blood mages. Beyond killing them when they show up. Where is the proof that the  templars prevent abominations? (There is certainly evidence they cause  them, as mages turn to dangerous magic out of fear of them).

Given that all Templars are good for is hunting, capturing and killing mages there roll should be that of a police force.
The Circles all basically operated as a police state with the Templars as the police. The only way the Circles of Magi would function successfully is if a police state could be just.

Do the mages stand a chance? well the Templars have left the chantry[who control the Lyrum trade]. So they're going to start suffering from withdrawl, You have an army of trained killers suffering from withdrawl scattered across the Thedas zealously hunting down escaped mages...

I think its safe to say they'll ****** off there fair share of people who might decide that mages were right run from them. Just as some mages will abuse this freedom to become villians and other people will see the templars as the answer.
As Cullen points out during one conversation, the templar have lost there image of heroes protecting the people from mages while the chained apprentince child has gained sympathy.

The mages have a key advantage they don't have to win, they just have to hide long enough for the templars to do enough damage that the nobility decides the templar need to be eliminated as there harrassing the people.  But of course the mages aren't all going to do that, as I doubt either side has a unified leadership.

Modifié par Vukodlak, 17 mars 2011 - 05:53 .

[Noatz]

Do the mages have a chance?

I suspect that is the wrong question to be asking. I doubt the ex-Circle mages will all meet up and form any kind of cohesive faction, which makes what will happen a far cry from any kind of war in a traditional sense. With the Templars operating outside of Chantry directives its more of a continent wide scenario of cops and robbers, with individual nations or city states' local allegiances playing more of a factor in events than any individual strength of either the mages or templars themselves.

Victory or defeat in such an environment is not something that will be decided either quickly or conclusively.

Then there is the Chantry itself which embodies the support of the general population - despite a mage murdering one of its grand clerics and other clergy I do not think it opposes the mages per se. It would much rather make peace with rather than kill them. And its no guarantee the Templars retain this public support now they have split from the Chantry. So people; nobles, local and national leaders etc are bound to choose for reasons of their own whether to support Templars or mages should the issue become relevant to them (and it will become relevant in most places I imagine). The only thing it is guaranteed to do is make the entire continent more susceptible to either a Qunari invasion or another Blight. And while the former is not all that likely while the Qunari are still at war with Tevinter, Thedas is still due two more Blights. And if the epilogue of Awakening is to be believed, the sixth is imminent...

Modifié par Noatz, 17 mars 2011 - 05:45 .

[Vukodlak]

The only thing it is guaranteed to do is make the entire continent more susceptible to either a Qunari invasion or another Blight. And while the former is not all that likely while the Qunari are still at war with Tevinter, Thedas is still due two more Blights. And if the epilogue of Awakening is to be believed, the sixth is imminent...

No its not imminent the awakening eplogue is saying that because the darkspawn have returned to normal the sixth blight is inevitable as they are still bound to the call of the old gods and infest the deep roads. If the Architect surived the darkspawn appear to be retreating from the deep roads entirely.

Now a Qunari invasion sounds more likely but given there continued stalemant against Triviniter it sounds unlikely they'll make much headway against the rest of Thedeas. But something like a blight or a Qunari invasion may be the only thing to end the conflict(at lest swiftly) as the two sides are forced to band together.

[Noatz]

Vukodlak wrote...

The only thing it is guaranteed to do is make the entire continent more susceptible to either a Qunari invasion or another Blight. And while the former is not all that likely while the Qunari are still at war with Tevinter, Thedas is still due two more Blights. And if the epilogue of Awakening is to be believed, the sixth is imminent...

No its not imminent the awakening eplogue is saying that because the darkspawn have returned to normal the sixth blight is inevitable as they are still bound to the call of the old gods and infest the deep roads. If the Architect surived the darkspawn appear to be retreating from the deep roads entirely.

Now a Qunari invasion sounds more likely but given there continued stalemant against Triviniter it sounds unlikely they'll make much headway against the rest of Thedeas. But something like a blight or a Qunari invasion may be the only thing to end the conflict(at lest swiftly) as the two sides are forced to band together.

There was something about a rumoured Blight in the Anderfels I seem to recall. Its been a while since I finished Awakening so my memory is a little hazy.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vukodlak wrote...

Had Isolde followed the Chantry system and not tried to subvert it, the tragedy wouldn't have occured.

If she had done that Connor never could have made the deal with the demon to save his father and the country would probably have been lost to the blight as the Warden's couldn't have rallied the country together. Remember Arl Eamon would have already been dead if not for the desire demon. By rebelling against the chantry system she unknowningly saved the country and the world from decades of combating the blight.

Debatable on different levels: we know via word of god, for example, that Eamon's poisoning was non-fatal, and always intended by Loghain as something that could be reversed after the showdown with Cailen over Orlais.

Not, to be clear, that Conner had reason or basis to know that, of course.

The flaw in your logic is, that in places where the Chantry doesn't control the mages, what you describe doesn't happen. Abombinations aren't a problem among the Dalish or the Rivaini witches or any place in the wilds beyond the templars reach.

Citation needed.

Simply because those societies still exist and endure, doesn't mean they don't suffer the problems... or that they don't suffer the costs more often (and, more relevantly, more willingly). Accepting the costs of such a system doesn't, and never has, meant that such costs don't exist. Your argument revolves around that, because the bockwoods, marginal societies exist, they must succede without issue: that is not a maintainable argument. You really can't say it works well and without problem nothing we have tells one way or another.

And while Trivinter may be ruled by the evil magisters its not plagued by rogue abominations. But mundane humans can be just as brutal tyrants as mages. Rendon Howe was probably a worse person then either Meredith or Orsino.

We also can't say the Tevinter doesn't have problems with it's rogue mages either. They, too, maintain a Templar system of their own. The compromises of their mage system, as well, come with its own compromises to public well being... costs that no society will inherently be inclined to accept if given a choice.

Rendon Howe's capability to be a bad person was also far less than it would have been had he had both the position of authority and the power of the magi. There's always the harm someone in a position of authority can do regardless of their powers, and then there's more.

There has yet to be any evidence presented anywhere that the templars are actually effective at preventing abominations or blood mages. Beyond killing them when they show up. Where is the proof that the  templars prevent abominations? (There is certainly evidence they cause  them, as mages turn to dangerous magic out of fear of them).

When the evidence is a proof of a negative, you'll never be satisfied. It's a meaningless standard to demand, because it's impossible to prove: you might as well argue that police are a complete waste of money because crime happens regardless and it's impossible to prove they decrease crime without extensive documentation not provided.

We can, however, certainly point out the difference of costs when mages went abomination in a Circle setting, compared to the costs when mages went abomination outside of a public setting, and compare that to what we know and have reason to believe of pre-Chantry history.

Do the mages stand a chance? well the Templars have left the chantry[who control the Lyrum trade]. So they're going to start suffering from withdrawl, You have an army of trained killers suffering from withdrawl scattered across the Thedas zealously hunting down escaped mages...

The Templars didn't necessarily leave the Chantry: the Chantry lost control of the Templars. That could easily, and logically, mean the Templars took the means of Lyrium control for themselves.