454 réponses à ce sujet

[Whist Darkblade]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Ardinal wrote...
Anders will always be gay in a MHawke play through. He can never exist as a straight man hanging out with a male Hawke because he is tailored to be "gay" in case the player with a MHawke avatar happens to want a homosexual relationship with him. Its like he's on gay standby as oppossed to being given a defined sexuality your PC can interact with.

So which is it?
Either he is gay or he doesn't have a defined sexuality.

But then I haven't fully understood what you were trying to argue for like 4 pages now so I'm not sure why i'm even asking.

Anders is gay on a Male Hawke play through, turn him down and he wont bother you again, or accept his attentions

Anders is straight on a female Hawke play through (if he was gay  then you couldnt romance him)

[Ardinal]

Hezulkai wrote...

Yes but the Dalish are still the same Dalish when they exist in another persons game as opposed to having Werewolves. Anders will always be gay in a MHawke play through. He can never exist as a straight man hanging out with a male Hawke because he is tailored to be "gay" in case the player with a MHawke avatar happens to want a homosexual relationship with him. Its like he's on gay standby as oppossed to being given a defined sexuality your PC can interact with.

This reminds me of all the people who hated Alistair in DAO because if you played through the ending where you chose Loghain, Alistair would leave the Wardens and knowing that possibility existed meant that every other possibility and playthrough was irrevocably tainted by Alistair's actions in the one playthrough.

Simple solution to Anders... say 'no thanks' and after that he's your buddy.  Any hang ups you have about hanging out with people who aren't 100% straight are all your own from that point on.  You can still be buddies with gay guys, just so you know.

You could do that with Zevran or Leliana because they were defined as bi characters. All of the DA:II companions are potentially bi and their sexuality is left up to the PC as oppossed to the PC just having to deal with the NPC's choice of sexual orientation. There really doesn't seem to be any clearly defined hetrosexual characters (apart from Sebastion) in DA:II or if they are straight you can't romance them i.e. Varric or even Aveline. I also found it strange that Aveline wasn't put off by my FHawke's advances. She should have the right to say 'hey PC, I'm not cool with this" but she just seems to shrug it off as oppossed to simply telling me polietly that she isn't interested.

[Maria Caliban]

Ardinal wrote...

Ok here's a question. Why doesn't Hawke have sex with Bethany? Because Bethany is pre-defined as your sister. You just have to accept that the character "Bethany" is your sister and hence not a romance option for either gender of the Hawke incarnation. To me being able to dictate the sexuality of a companion is the same as wanting to re-write the character Bethany and not make her your sister so that your character is able to bed her. I don't want NPC's that are customizable to the extent that you may as well have party full of PC's

Seriously.

And people are ignoring what's in the game. Anders tells Dude Hawke that gender doesn't matter to him, not that he's only into dudes. Fenris talks about sleeping with Isabela. Isabela obviously is attracted to men and women.

There is one character that might be 'Hawke sexual' and it's just as likely she's bisexual but emotionally and sexually monogamous.

[Blacklash93]

a12boom wrote...

Errggh i know how you feel but in Awakening Anders was straight. I think they should have kept with the Awakening design and personality of Anders form Awakening just with the new clothes. Ugh i accidently chose a flirt option with Anders so i turned off my PS3 and turned him down. I'm straight but i have nothing against Gay's or Bi's. But Bioware if you make DA3 Please make at least 3 of the LI's straight.

Three? Even if there's only four LI's again in DA3?

[Soundsystem]

Ardinal wrote...

Hezulkai wrote...

Yes but the Dalish are still the same Dalish when they exist in another persons game as opposed to having Werewolves. Anders will always be gay in a MHawke play through. He can never exist as a straight man hanging out with a male Hawke because he is tailored to be "gay" in case the player with a MHawke avatar happens to want a homosexual relationship with him. Its like he's on gay standby as oppossed to being given a defined sexuality your PC can interact with.

This reminds me of all the people who hated Alistair in DAO because if you played through the ending where you chose Loghain, Alistair would leave the Wardens and knowing that possibility existed meant that every other possibility and playthrough was irrevocably tainted by Alistair's actions in the one playthrough.

Simple solution to Anders... say 'no thanks' and after that he's your buddy.  Any hang ups you have about hanging out with people who aren't 100% straight are all your own from that point on.  You can still be buddies with gay guys, just so you know.

You could do that with Zevran or Leliana because they were defined as bi characters. All of the DA:II companions are potentially bi and their sexuality is left up to the PC as oppossed to the PC just having to deal with the NPC's choice of sexual orientation. There really doesn't seem to be any clearly defined hetrosexual characters (apart from Sebastion) in DA:II or if they are straight you can't romance them i.e. Varric or even Aveline. I also found it strange that Aveline wasn't put off by my FHawke's advances. She should have the right to say 'hey PC, I'm not cool with this" but she just seems to shrug it off as oppossed to simply telling me polietly that she isn't interested.

I get what you are saying about not having the PC dictating a NPC's sexuality but this is really the least complex way to do it.

Just as there are no heterosexual characters, there are also no homosexual characters. Thus ensuring everyone has equal access to all LIs.

[Ardinal]

Soundsystem wrote...

Ardinal wrote...

Hezulkai wrote...

Yes but the Dalish are still the same Dalish when they exist in another persons game as opposed to having Werewolves. Anders will always be gay in a MHawke play through. He can never exist as a straight man hanging out with a male Hawke because he is tailored to be "gay" in case the player with a MHawke avatar happens to want a homosexual relationship with him. Its like he's on gay standby as oppossed to being given a defined sexuality your PC can interact with.

This reminds me of all the people who hated Alistair in DAO because if you played through the ending where you chose Loghain, Alistair would leave the Wardens and knowing that possibility existed meant that every other possibility and playthrough was irrevocably tainted by Alistair's actions in the one playthrough.

Simple solution to Anders... say 'no thanks' and after that he's your buddy.  Any hang ups you have about hanging out with people who aren't 100% straight are all your own from that point on.  You can still be buddies with gay guys, just so you know.

You could do that with Zevran or Leliana because they were defined as bi characters. All of the DA:II companions are potentially bi and their sexuality is left up to the PC as oppossed to the PC just having to deal with the NPC's choice of sexual orientation. There really doesn't seem to be any clearly defined hetrosexual characters (apart from Sebastion) in DA:II or if they are straight you can't romance them i.e. Varric or even Aveline. I also found it strange that Aveline wasn't put off by my FHawke's advances. She should have the right to say 'hey PC, I'm not cool with this" but she just seems to shrug it off as oppossed to simply telling me polietly that she isn't interested.

I get what you are saying about not having the PC dictating a NPC's sexuality but this is really the least complex way to do it.

Just as there are no heterosexual characters, there are also no homosexual characters. Thus ensuring everyone has equal access to all LIs.

Valid point. I just don't agree that everyone should have equal access to all LI's. I just want well defined RPG's so I don't feel like I'm role playing with myself. In a live action role playing game or even in a table top game where you are interacting with other peoples characters you often have to accept and deal with their decisions and interactions with you. I liked the fact that Alistair wasn't cool with Loghain being in the party. If I wanted him to stay I just had to deal and not try to control the situation. If they start tailoring the sexuality of all NPC's and allowing you to decide the relationship aspect I may as well be writing the characters the way I want them instead of enjoying or even loathing the consequences of my actions towards them. 

[Jimmy Fury]

nvm point-ninja'd

Ardinal, I think you're focusing a lot on the sexuality part and kind of ignoring the entire rest of the game. Everything else about them is completely out of your control. Just because the romance aspect tailors itself to the player doesn't mean they're fully controlled PCs.  Carver's gonna be a raging douche no matter what. Fenris will throw at least 4 epic hissy fits over the course of the game. Merrill will OCD her precocious little head off. That's all out of your hands and eventually you have to deal with the consequences of their personalities.

What you say you want is there. It really is. You're just ignoring it.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 17 mars 2011 - 02:55 .

[Maria Caliban]

Soundsystem wrote...

Just as there are no heterosexual characters, there are also no homosexual characters. Thus ensuring everyone has equal access to all LIs.

Or you could have bisexual characters. You know, a sexual orientation that exists and allows someone to be attracted to a member of either gender.

And while having four bisexual characters in a group of 6 might be unlikely, it's still more realistic than having characters who are straight or gay depending on the gender of the PC.

[Rafe34]

Shazzie wrote...

My female Mage romanced Anders. Anders was completely heterosexual for her... he only showed a liking for the ladies. Same with Fenris, with my female Rogue. He was completely heterosexual, too. Granted, I wouldn't care if they showed a lack of gender preference, but neither one did, so it was never an issue of any sort whatsoever.


Knowing that all the LIs in the game are Hawkesexual and programmed to like Hawke regardless of Hawke's gender doesn't mean they're all bi.

~signed,
A completely heterosexual female.

Hawkesexual.

That's awesome, lol.

[Geiyu]

You're not actually dictating anything. If you choose to go for them? It's part of the story that they lean that way. If you choose not to? Then it becomes a non-issue. Simple as that. Nothing complex about it. The thing that gets me is this...people don't really have a problem with all the MURDER going on in the game...some are a little bothered by it, but mostly they shrug it off. But when it comes to love? HOOOOOOLLLLLLYYYYYY SHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTEEEEEE! Suddenly we're looking at a full blown scandal. A plot to overthrow the heterosexuals of the world by...*gasp* ALLOWING PEOPLE TO LOVE SOMEONE THAT THEY ACTUALLY WANT TO LOVE IN A FANTASY WORLD! WE'RE DOOMED!

You know, when you put it like that, it sounds pretty damn stupid doesn't it? So quit sniveling, play the game, and stop being ignorant. It's a game. You REALLY want to pick it apart? Their feelings don't matter AT ALL. They DON'T EXIST. They AREN'T REAL. And don't start whining about the fourth wall, you already broke that when you started complaining that in some other play throughs, they'll all sleep with the same sex. You've already broken the suspension of disbelief, so here's the facts: It's not real. Get over it. They aren't being hurt by it, and neither are you.

And if you really want to get into the whole "Sending the wrong message" kind of thing, how about this?

[Ardinal]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

nvm point-ninja'd

Ardinal, I think you're focusing a lot on the sexuality part and kind of ignoring the entire rest of the game. Everything else about them is completely out of your control. Just because the romance aspect tailors itself to the player doesn't mean they're fully controlled PCs.  Carver's gonna be a raging douche no matter what. Fenris will throw at least 4 epic hissy fits over the course of the game. Merrill will OCD her precocious little head off. That's all out of your hands and eventually you have to deal with the consequences of their personalities.


What you say you want is there. It really is. You're just ignoring it.

Fair enough. I have been carrying on about this for quite some time. It changed what has happened nor how the game has been developed. I'm happy to see the passion people have for this topic and for the game. Yes there are the other aspects that are out of my hands but will they be next on the list to be made customizable in the attempt to create diversity and choice for gamers? I guess it all depends on whether you prefer creating the story or watching it unfold based on your choices. Thank you for pulling me up on my tyrade by offering a logical and intelligent retort.

[Blacklash93]

Shazzie wrote...

My female Mage romanced Anders. Anders was completely heterosexual for her... he only showed a liking for the ladies. Same with Fenris, with my female Rogue. He was completely heterosexual, too. Granted, I wouldn't care if they showed a lack of gender preference, but neither one did, so it was never an issue of any sort whatsoever.


Knowing that all the LIs in the game are Hawkesexual and programmed to like Hawke regardless of Hawke's gender doesn't mean they're all bi.

~signed,
A completely heterosexual female.

Anders is bi (or at least isn't picky about gender). I don't think the writers would handwave his relationship with Karl or his open-mindedness based on the PC's gender.

I don't recall Anders showing interest for anyone in DA2 besides Hawke, really. One or two past sexual encounters are vaugely hinted at, but that's all I can remember.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 17 mars 2011 - 03:14 .

[Soundsystem]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Soundsystem wrote...

Just as there are no heterosexual characters, there are also no homosexual characters. Thus ensuring everyone has equal access to all LIs.

Or you could have bisexual characters. You know, a sexual orientation that exists and allows someone to be attracted to a member of either gender.

And while having four bisexual characters in a group of 6 might be unlikely, it's still more realistic than having characters who are straight or gay depending on the gender of the PC.

Yes. That's exactly my point. There are no homosexual characters or heterosexual characters, only bisexual ones.

I know exactly what bisexuality is (identified as bi for a number of years but currently identify as pansexual because I feel it describes my sexuality better).

You seem to be disagreeing with me.. except.. saying exactly what I have said in my posts? O.o Confusion.

[David Gaider]

Maria Caliban wrote...
And while having four bisexual characters in a group of 6 might be unlikely, it's still more realistic than having characters who are straight or gay depending on the gender of the PC.

I'm sorry, but just to chime in again-- how are we coming to the conclusion that the characters are either straight or gay, exactly? Considering that they don't generally discuss their sexuality with the player, the idea that their sexuality changes seems a bit bizarre when their actions don't. You can decide for yourself what they are-- that is indeed part of the point in leaving it to your interpretation-- but deciding that they are one thing or the other and calling this "not realistic" seems to me to be a little self-serving.

And, yes, they don't discuss their sexuality. Perhaps you'd prefer if they would. It strikes me that the only way some people will be happy is if we had an entire array of characters to romance-- some completely straight, some completely gay with maybe a few canonically bisexual characters for good measure. Enough to be "fair", and all of them covering the complete range of attractions for players of that persuasion.

I don't know about you, but that seems unlikely.

So as I said, we went with simply giving players the option of deciding for themselves, as well as interpreting for themselves. If some people are unhappy that they still didn't get the particular flavor they were looking for-- well, that's just too damned bad. As always, we're never going to be able to provide enough to suit everyone. At least in this case the people that don't like it can be equally unhappy, and I can live with that.

Modifié par David Gaider, 17 mars 2011 - 03:25 .

[Fidget6]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

Before I go any further let me clarify this is not a condemnation of homosexuality or bisexuality by any means.

Captain Cornhole wrote...

Bottomline it is disgusting 

Riiiiiight. 

[Blacklash93]

I really don't mind that Bioware allowed all the characters to be open to romantic relationships with any gender.

If gay players get only one option, if they don't find the character appealing, then they're just stuck with it. With having all romancable characters available to all genders, the gay community has an equal stake of finding the LI they like the most as any straight player. It's not about fairness for the sake of it, it's about the freedom to pursue relationships and making sure that everyone is equally likely to find something they enjoy in any aspect of the game, which is a huge part of what RPG's are all about.

I support that and I don't think any story integrity is lost for it.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 17 mars 2011 - 03:56 .

[Persephone]

Geez, Bioware REALLY can't win. (I've just read some "reviews" on Amazon.....YEEESH) Before the game was released I read thread after thread going "Please make them all bi" this time. They did. And now people aren't happy either. I truly feel sorry for Bioware because no matter if they fulfil a request or not, they'll be ripped to shreds.

[Persephone]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
And while having four bisexual characters in a group of 6 might be unlikely, it's still more realistic than having characters who are straight or gay depending on the gender of the PC.

I'm sorry, but just to chime in again-- how are we coming to the conclusion that the characters are either straight or gay, exactly? Considering that they don't generally discuss their sexuality with the player, the idea that their sexuality changes seems a bit bizarre when their actions don't. You can decide for yourself what they are-- that is indeed part of the point in leaving it to your interpretation-- but deciding that they are one thing or the other and calling this "not realistic" seems to me to be a little self-serving.

And, yes, they don't discuss their sexuality. Perhaps you'd prefer if they would. It strikes me that the only way some people will be happy is if we had an entire array of characters to romance-- some completely straight, some completely gay with maybe a few canonically bisexual characters for good measure. Enough to be "fair", and all of them covering the complete range of attractions for players of that persuasion.

I don't know about you, but that seems unlikely.

So as I said, we went with simply giving players the option of deciding for themselves, as well as interpreting for themselves. If some people are unhappy that they still didn't get the particular flavor they were looking for-- well, that's just too damned bad. As always, we're never going to be able to provide enough to suit everyone. At least in this case the people that don't like it can be equally unhappy, and I can live with that.

Forget my earlier post. Mr. Gaider summed it up much better than I did. :happy:

[MasterSamson88]

Personally I like that they're all an option for all players regardless of what sexual orientation the player might be. It's very nice that everyone is included I think, rather than excluded.

That way it's not like some other games where if you might be gay but your only choice of a gay character isn't really the kind of person you're into and you're stuck with only that person to choose from. Now you can just go choose whoever you want and come to whatever conclusions you want to on whether or not characters are straight, bi, or gay.

In a sense, create your own canon I guess.

Modifié par MasterSamson88, 17 mars 2011 - 04:09 .

[jlb524]

I personally love the 'all bi' thing and want moar in future games. I just want more options and could care less about realism. I prefer all bi to even having gay only characters.

[jkowal7]

Don't go banging the guys (or girls) and get over it. They're only bi because you're making them that way. It's a freaking game, you can make choices.

[Maria Caliban]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
And while having four bisexual characters in a group of 6 might be unlikely, it's still more realistic than having characters who are straight or gay depending on the gender of the PC.

I'm sorry, but just to chime in again-- how are we coming to the conclusion that the characters are either straight or gay, exactly?

I haven't come to that conclusion. I've argued against the idea that the characters are 'hawkesexual' in several threads, including this one. However, people are suggesting that 'hawkesexual' is a good idea, and I'm disagreeing with them.

As for why some people think they're not bisexual, I don't know. Whenever I've asked, all people have told me is that the lack of explicitly stated bisexuality is evidence that their sexuality is malleable.

I suspect it's something that's been repeated enough times that people regard it as a fact.

Considering that they don't generally discuss their sexuality with the player, the idea that their sexuality changes seems a bit bizarre when their actions don't.

I agree. Just because Merrill doesn't tell my Lady Hawke she thinks dudes are sexy doesn't mean she's only attracted to women.

You can decide for yourself what they are-- that is indeed part of the point in leaving it to your interpretation-- but deciding that they are one thing or the other and calling this "not realistic" seems to me to be a little self-serving.

I guess I'm a terribly self-serving person. I don't find either to be realistic but I vastly prefer one to the other.

And, yes, they don't discuss their sexuality. Perhaps you'd prefer if they would.

You know? Let's end it right here because I'm not going to be lumped in with 'some people' or attempt to defend a viewpoint I've never had.

I do not like the idea that companion sexuality is dictated by PC gender. I have assumed (and I acknowledge that it's merely an assumption) that the characters in DA II are bisexual.

I want companions to talk about whatever they're inclined to talk about; I find the idea that someone is only bisexual if they explicitly talk about attraction to men and women annoying.

I stopped asking for exclusively gay romances about three years ago because of a conversation I had with you on zots and such. I was prepared for the usual 2 bi and 2 straight LIs, but was thrilled when it turned out they're all bi.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 17 mars 2011 - 04:22 .

[David Gaider]

Maria Caliban wrote...
You know? Let's end it right here because I'm not going to be lumped in with 'some people' or attempt to defend a viewpoint I've never had.

Fair enough. It seemed like you were saying that, but I was responding not only to you but to those who'd espoused this view.

I want companions to talk about whatever they're inclined to talk about; I find the idea that someone is only bisexual if they explicitly talk about attraction to men and women annoying.

Indeed. I suppose one could probably infer that at least a couple of the characters are bisexual because of some things they say-- but it is indeed an inference only, and is intended as such. If someone feels the need to slap a label on a character, or feel differently about them based on what they might be, that's up to them. In this particular case, we're evidently damned if we do as well as damned if we don't. I'd rather be damned if we do.

[wyvvern]

Hmm . . . Anders says Karl was his first love. He states this explicitly. Then, in a banter with Isabella, he talks about meeting her at the pearl, where she was into some girl with griffon tattoos. At that meeting they apparently had sex together because Isabella says "you're the runaway mage that could do that electricity thingy, that was nice" to which Hawke replies, "please, just stop talking."

Isabella also says "I didn't know you had such a cute cousin," when meeting Charade if she's in party.

So I'm not seeing how it's a great leap or inference to deduce both Anders and Isabella at least are cannonically bi-sexual.

(And of course in Awakenings, which I deliberately left out because it's not this game, Anders makes several comments about liking the ladies.)

(For the record - I'm fine with having all LI be available to all players. More choice is always better in my book.)

Modifié par wyvvern, 17 mars 2011 - 04:40 .

[Oneiropolos]

You know, it reminds me of something Ianto says in Torchwood. That it's not that he's attracted to men, it's JUST Jack. So he doesn't even really consider himself bisexual. It's just Jack. Otherwise it's always been women for him. Jack refers to himself as omnisexual because he's been with aliens too and he REALLY doesn't care about gender. The other characters have had sexual encounters with both genders too, but seem to have a preferred gender they go for. It seems to make logical sense to me for that group. They deal with the bizarre every day. Human sexuality seems downright normal in comparison. Our characters are constantly dealing with a bizarre world too...sexuality PROBABLY wouldn't be a huge concern for them unless they've taken vows for the chantry (Sebastian) or they really want to be with everything they meet (Isabella). I personally like that players can decide who THEY are attracted to and that the writers haven't gone "Nope, screw you." Realistic or unrealistic, you decide what you can believe or can't believe. While you're going after undead, demons, and dragons.