25 réponses à ce sujet

[Noodlewidagun]

I've heard/read a LOT of complaints about how long heal CD's are in DA 2. and i've boiled it down to 2 mechanics. which i'll break down below...

1. Cross-class Combos (CCC's): the whole point of CCC's is to make a fight go faster.. the whole reason you would REQUIRE a fight to go faster is because you can't have a healer spam heal while you chip away at a large group of enemies, as you could in Origins. if you COULD spam heals in DAO fashion, CCC's would become an afterthought to the survivability your OP healer would provide. i can't count how many times i went and made a sandwich mid-boss fight in DAO just because i knew my healer/tank combo would never die. the lack of constant healing requires you to end a fight as fast as possible, because there is GOING to be a time when your potions and healing spells are all on CD, and your tank is about to fall.

2. Damage Mitigation: Let's face it.. mitigation has ALWAYS been a part of tanking. and it's always going to be.. MMO's like WoW make mitigation useful, but your heals are still a superior survival tool. DA2's mechanics require you to think more tactically with the way your tank handles threat/damage, and also how your rogues, DPS warriors, and mages handle threat as well. Rogues have Evade,Miasmic Flask, Confusion, Back to Back, and others for a reason.. just as Mages have Mind Blast, Petrify, paralyzing crushing prison, ANYTHING that either stuns/ stops an enemy from attacking the squishier party members. to be successful wihtout a massive amount of healing you HAVE to understand how damage mitigation works, and use that to it's fullest extent.. especially with your tank.. turn the blade and it's upgrades, stonewall and upgrades.. bodyguard, and more all help to reduce the damage your tank and others take, buying you time between your heal CD's, and also allowing your damage causing members to more effectively perform their roles.

I hope this helps people, and i'll be glad to hear from others if i missed anything, or anyone has questions.

[AsaTJ]

This is absolutely true. Dragon Age 1 was all about building one character into a wall of steel and directing all damage to them. Dragon Age 2 is all about burning down sources of incoming damage as fast as possible. Hence why sword and board doesn't hold up on Hard and Nightmare.

[Noodlewidagun]

bump

[soteria]

1. The problem with that is that many bosses are virtually immune to CCCs.

2. True. In DA2, the whole party needs to contribute to damage mitigation and aggro.

[Noodlewidagun]

bumping again.

[Auru]

Hawke was a sword/board warrior for me on hard, and I had no issues staying alive.. I didn't even heavily invest in defensive talents either

In DA2 all party members need to pay attention to defensive play, which I think is more interesting especially in the mages and rogues

Cross class combos are definately there to shorten encounters.. as well as take out key enemies, on hard mode if I let to many Temple Hunters loose on my team it was very tough, but a good CCC is enough to disable one of them almost instantly.. same goes for problem enemies like mages.. and lieutenants

I never really came across a part of the game where I thought "arrrgh I need more heals" even the high dragon was fairly easy to tank, with high resistances up and using other buff potions.. just healed up Hawke when he was about to die

[x-president]

It also forces better tactics.  I'm kind of to the point where I try to setup so I don't need to heal.  If anyhting I'll heal one person or wait until 3 memebers die and just revive them all at once.

Also this makes potions and healing spells equally as good.  I know in Origins you really only needed one or the other for healing.  But now you have to kind of balance both and with waves of enemies healing now becomes part of the strategy.  Before it was more heal whenever and gut it out.

Personally I don't mind the longer CD on heal spells.  It adds more depth to your tactics.


Off Topic:

Companions have some funny comments when taking potions.  I don't remeber that in Origins.

[Noodlewidagun]

These can be an issue on hard, but not as much. having played hard my first playthrough, and going through 2 playthroughs on nightmare (one mage, one rogue) i can say with confidence that there's actually a HUGE difference between the two. especially in how you approach every fight.. (though the ANOTHER WAVE! concept gets extremely frustrating at points. especially when you have a chokepoint prefectly locked by your tank, only to have 12 mobs warp in from nowhere behind you, forcing you to break your original line, then have even more spawn from the chokepoint you were guarding, effectively forcing you to reload after contemplating how that mechanic got past the drawing board...

[Wulfram]

Healing seems quite well done, really. A big improvement on Origins, where potions were pretty much a win button if you really used them to their potential

[Graunt]

Noodlewidagun wrote...

I've heard/read a LOT of complaints about how long heal CD's are in DA 2. and i've boiled it down to 2 mechanics. which i'll break down below...

1. Cross-class Combos (CCC's): the whole point of CCC's is to make a fight go faster.. the whole reason you would REQUIRE a fight to go faster is because you can't have a healer spam heal while you chip away at a large group of enemies, as you could in Origins. if you COULD spam heals in DAO fashion, CCC's would become an afterthought to the survivability your OP healer would provide. i can't count how many times i went and made a sandwich mid-boss fight in DAO just because i knew my healer/tank combo would never die. the lack of constant healing requires you to end a fight as fast as possible, because there is GOING to be a time when your potions and healing spells are all on CD, and your tank is about to fall.

2. Damage Mitigation: Let's face it.. mitigation has ALWAYS been a part of tanking. and it's always going to be.. MMO's like WoW make mitigation useful, but your heals are still a superior survival tool. DA2's mechanics require you to think more tactically with the way your tank handles threat/damage, and also how your rogues, DPS warriors, and mages handle threat as well. Rogues have Evade,Miasmic Flask, Confusion, Back to Back, and others for a reason.. just as Mages have Mind Blast, Petrify, paralyzing crushing prison, ANYTHING that either stuns/ stops an enemy from attacking the squishier party members. to be successful wihtout a massive amount of healing you HAVE to understand how damage mitigation works, and use that to it's fullest extent.. especially with your tank.. turn the blade and it's upgrades, stonewall and upgrades.. bodyguard, and more all help to reduce the damage your tank and others take, buying you time between your heal CD's, and also allowing your damage causing members to more effectively perform their roles.

I hope this helps people, and i'll be glad to hear from others if i missed anything, or anyone has questions.

You could have summed all of this up with four words...

To make tanks useful.

[Colma]

could have also said "Hey, if you don't like it, download the mod that fixes it that was out 2 days after release."

[Noodlewidagun]

@ Graunt. tanks were always useful, they just never had to do anything before but taunt and stand there. now their mitigation cooldowns actually have a REAL purpose.


and Colma, Consoles don't have the luxury of downloading mods like that one... though i'm sure people will/have already. being a console player myself, i didn't even know there was a mod like that out. oh well.

[KallDay]

x-president wrote...

Companions have some funny comments when taking potions.  I don't remeber that in Origins.

"So there really are some problems that can be solved by drinking." - Isabella 

[AsaTJ]

 having played hard my first playthrough, and going through 2 playthroughs on nightmare (one mage, one rogue)

....

Slightly off-topic, but do you sleep?  Or eat?  Or work?  I bought the game on launch day and I just finished my first go on Tuesday...

[Noodlewidagun]

hahaha, i thought about that after i typed it, and just didn't edit it for some reason. the mage and rogue nightmare plays are in progress. XD that was my fault.

[Malysoun]

Graunt wrote...

Noodlewidagun wrote...

I've heard/read a LOT of complaints about how long heal CD's are in DA 2. and i've boiled it down to 2 mechanics. which i'll break down below...

1. Cross-class Combos (CCC's): the whole point of CCC's is to make a fight go faster.. the whole reason you would REQUIRE a fight to go faster is because you can't have a healer spam heal while you chip away at a large group of enemies, as you could in Origins. if you COULD spam heals in DAO fashion, CCC's would become an afterthought to the survivability your OP healer would provide. i can't count how many times i went and made a sandwich mid-boss fight in DAO just because i knew my healer/tank combo would never die. the lack of constant healing requires you to end a fight as fast as possible, because there is GOING to be a time when your potions and healing spells are all on CD, and your tank is about to fall.

2. Damage Mitigation: Let's face it.. mitigation has ALWAYS been a part of tanking. and it's always going to be.. MMO's like WoW make mitigation useful, but your heals are still a superior survival tool. DA2's mechanics require you to think more tactically with the way your tank handles threat/damage, and also how your rogues, DPS warriors, and mages handle threat as well. Rogues have Evade,Miasmic Flask, Confusion, Back to Back, and others for a reason.. just as Mages have Mind Blast, Petrify, paralyzing crushing prison, ANYTHING that either stuns/ stops an enemy from attacking the squishier party members. to be successful wihtout a massive amount of healing you HAVE to understand how damage mitigation works, and use that to it's fullest extent.. especially with your tank.. turn the blade and it's upgrades, stonewall and upgrades.. bodyguard, and more all help to reduce the damage your tank and others take, buying you time between your heal CD's, and also allowing your damage causing members to more effectively perform their roles.

I hope this helps people, and i'll be glad to hear from others if i missed anything, or anyone has questions.

You could have summed all of this up with four words...

To make tanks useful.

If only that were true.
I've played many games before but some of the encounters are just entirely so stupid with waves and no healing.
Varric even with threat talents is constantly stealing hate off Aveline and falling on his face most of the time.

When I'm not playing a spirit healer Hawke with the aura on most of the time it feels like the entire party is wearing armor made of wet paper bags.

I'm sure part of that is just me because I tend to be overly defensive, usually only get into tank characters in mmos or heavy support. I happen to like boring my enemy to death thank you much.

[Adhin]

Aveline with Battle Synergy upgraded for 50% threat transfer. Put her into any kind of choke point or just back the party up to the point where she's inbetween your ranged and the other guys. They wont ever go for anyone else unless your on Nightmare and some LT uses the command thing where he sends everyone after another party member.

Also with how Aveline is setup, you can set her up to have a 25/30% damage resistance (depending on friend/rival). I have her use the Shield Defense skill when shes below 25% hp (so she does actual damage perior). Skyrockets that up to 50/55%, and due to this, I don't upgrade Stonewall. As +50% will already cap her out. Add onto that Battle Synergy and her other Damage Resist sustained she can soak up a ton of dmg.

And that's not even considering her armor score which you can keep maxed out via runes and a good shield. I'm still a bit baffled as to why anyone would up her cunning score, seems almost pointless. Just max out her Con score and jack up her armor she'll be nearly unstoppable as a tank, single G-heal will be enough in most situations letting your ranged units destroy everything else.

And with that I agree with the OP, it's something I kept trying to point out well before the game was released. Healing is currently less stressful on mana supplies while remaining very powerful if you understand damage mitigation.

[The Earl Of Bronze]

I like how healing works now, can't just drink potions by the dozen anymore. Had some occasions in Origins where Alistair was just stood surrounded drinking potions, lol.

[Noodlewidagun]

[/quote]

If only that were true.
I've played many games before but some of the encounters are just entirely so stupid with waves and no healing.
Varric even with threat talents is constantly stealing hate off Aveline and falling on his face most of the time.

When I'm not playing a spirit healer Hawke with the aura on most of the time it feels like the entire party is wearing armor made of wet paper bags.

I'm sure part of that is just me because I tend to be overly defensive, usually only get into tank characters in mmos or heavy support. I happen to like boring my enemy to death thank you much.

[/quote]

Not only do you have to make use of talents that reduce the actual threat your characters generate, it's a good idea to also invest in at least one ability that gives them a way to dump it as well. rogues have more than any other class. armistice, stealth, miasmic flask just to name a few. invest in these and set up a proper tactic to go with them, and Varric will be firing his machinegun crossbow forever and ever, turning people into giblet pincushions with impunity.

[atheelogos]

Good points op. I like most of the changes, though I must say my healer, Anders, keeps failing me. He always goes down even when I don't give him damaging spells. For some reason the enemy always attacks him first.

[Joy Divison]

It takes some getting used to, but the heal cooldown means you must abandon DA Origins tactics. Once I stopped trying to ensure I had a healer (Anders) and just accepted the potion cooldown, I found the game quite more manageable. If the tank draws aggro correctly and you make liberal and effective use of cross class combos vs dangerous enemies of groups, you shouldn't need more healing.

In fact, in my last playthough as a mage, I never even took the heal spell. Forced me to adapt!

[Wintermist]

The long cooldowns forces you to a specific playstyle, which I think is a shame. We all enjoy different playstyles, and some enjoy playing as a dedicated healer and force your party forward through intensive healing. Now that is taken away and you're instead forced to adapt change your playstyle into something else. Thankfully there are mods that fixes the heal cooldowns so everyone will win in the end.

[sevenplusone]

The thing that make DA:O Nightmare a giant joke was all the heal spam, I'm glad they added long CD's tbh.

[FedericoV]

I agree with the OP.

DA2 is not about healing but aggro management. I have a party with two rogues that uses confusion, fatiguing fog, goad, armistice etc. a lot. I play on hard and just finished act 1. I think that it's really more fun and interesting than DA:O.

Honestly I do not see the point of using a healer. I have only one mage (my Hawke) and I have not taken the Heal spell and doing well so long (well, after the rock wraith I almost finished my potions but that's normal).

Yes, boss battle are a little bit harder but at the end a healer is a waste of space since boss are 5% of the game. And crafting is there for a reason: you have healing potions wich are cheap and the other 2 kind of healing potions you can craft, plus the revival one for extreme situation of danger. Considering that the cooldown of the 4 kind of healing potions is separated you have all the healing capabilities you need and more.

Modifié par FedericoV, 18 mars 2011 - 08:57 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

I thought healing worked well, on normal at least. My issue is that somehow, using one variety of healing potion causes them ALL to enter a cooldown, which annoys the crap out of me. It essentially requires me to have a mage at any one time, and only *one* of the recruitable mages actually has access to healing magic... one you very well may not have with you during the final area of the game. Essentially, you can potentially be put in an extremely disadvantageous position at the end if you didn't run Hawke himself as a mage, and only Hawke himself can tap the full potential of Spirit Healer skills in the first place.

Conversely, though, having a spirit healer and a healthy supply of potions usually lets you trade off between one and the other quite easily, relying on spells while potions cool down and potions while spells cool down. Between cooldown management and threat management, it's a surprisingly satisfying layer of tactical depth... if a flawed one.

I do think potion cooldowns could have been more generous, or perhaps there could have been equipment or skills that could more effectively cut down on cooldown times. Perhaps a sustained mode that made potion cooldowns take less time, or something.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 18 mars 2011 - 09:06 .