82 réponses à ce sujet

[ecto69]

This is very good, I was trying to find a way to build up Varric as I like him in the party as much as possible. I will start using this later today. I just started a new game so I can implement the points to each member correctly to make the team work better together.

[Rehwyn]

Scoundrel threat abilities and a good set of tactics is pretty key to a good Varric. Also, I'd recommend people get Pinning Shot and both it's upgrades. It's good CC, damage, and the Disorient opens up combos.

I personally wouldn't ignore his Cunning if he's the only Rogue because I like opening locked things and avoiding traps. Also, Glancing Blows on bosses affect auto-attacks only, by the way, not abilities.

Just to demonstrate what my level 26 Varric's stats look like with party buffs (which you should always consider when distributing points):



That's with Bianco's Song, Heroic Aura (upgraded), and Speed (with the Harmony bonuses). I think I can deal with a 4% chance for reduced auto-attack damage on a boss in return for bigger crit damage (on both attacks and abilities) and the ability to open any locks. Not to mention with those sustains and his passives he's at +55% attack speed.

One problem with the tactics you have for Varric: the tactic for Back-to-Back won't work properly, since he tries to target himself with it. For Back-to-Back to work you need something like this:

Self: Attacked by melee | Use condition for next tactic
Anders: Any | Use ability: Back-to-Back

In this case, Anders is the target of Back-to-Back.

EDIT: Oh, and here's his abilites.



Upgrades: Pinning Shot (both), Goad, Armistice, all Marksman, Evade (I like having a stun, which completely wipes aggro)

Kickback, while relatively low damage, is nice because you can have him use it on anything attacking your squishies (or staggered stuff, when upgraded) and the huge physical force will almost always knockdown. Follow-Through (1% stamina per hit) is better than +10 stam/mana regen because of how fast he attacks.

Modifié par Rehwyn, 17 mars 2011 - 07:32 .

[cheesewhiz]

I don't know if I'd say Varric was useless, but I rarely use him.

I'm using Merrill, Anders and a mix of Isabella/Aveline/Fenris, to go with my rogue. I can't really use Varric because I'd have 3 ranged in my party. It sucks that he's stuck with an unique weapon.

I've been using Merrill because I like her comments. It helps that I've given her a fully upgraded arcane shield.

I've decided I don't like Fenris, though he is pretty powerful. Mostly because he seems to hate everything I do. It doesn't help that he is pretty terrible as a tank/primary target.

Mostly, I've been going with Isabella, Anders and Merrill. Seems to be working. Though I had to swap out Varric for Merrill in the Deep Roads. 

It's fun going with 2 melee rogues running around. Isabela works as a primary target with Savvy and stealth/evade.

Modifié par cheesewhiz, 17 mars 2011 - 07:33 .

[Nagatsu]

I have been using Varric a lot in my playthroughs and built him to be more cunning heavy since I wanted those cits to be utterly destructive when Rhyming Triplets hits. I usually went 1 dex 2 cun every level till I had 40 cun and then went full into dex. he has would pretty well for me this way but then again I haven't really played with a Rogue Hawke yet

[Rehwyn]

Nagatsu wrote...

I have been using Varric a lot in my playthroughs and built him to be more cunning heavy since I wanted those cits to be utterly destructive when Rhyming Triplets hits. I usually went 1 dex 2 cun every level till I had 40 cun and then went full into dex. he has would pretty well for me this way but then again I haven't really played with a Rogue Hawke yet

The problem with this is if you consistently do 1:2 you're attack will fall behind. There's a curve to attack in the game, which means generally it's best to put just enough points into it so that you reach the point of diminishing returns. I generally alternated 1:2 and 2:1 dex/cun as I leveled Varric and it works well. I stopped at 40 cunning however because that's all I needed to open the hardest locks and crit damage isn't quite as good for Varric as it would be for, say, a DW assassin.

[Nagatsu]

Rehwyn wrote...

Nagatsu wrote...

I have been using Varric a lot in my playthroughs and built him to be more cunning heavy since I wanted those cits to be utterly destructive when Rhyming Triplets hits. I usually went 1 dex 2 cun every level till I had 40 cun and then went full into dex. he has would pretty well for me this way but then again I haven't really played with a Rogue Hawke yet

The problem with this is if you consistently do 1:2 you're attack will fall behind. There's a curve to attack in the game, which means generally it's best to put just enough points into it so that you reach the point of diminishing returns. I generally alternated 1:2 and 2:1 dex/cun as I leveled Varric and it works well. I stopped at 40 cunning however because that's all I needed to open the hardest locks and crit damage isn't quite as good for Varric as it would be for, say, a DW assassin.

True main reason why I stopped around 40 for locks I probably just overzealous with the reward of when the crits hit

[Cloaking_Thane]

Varric is my fav companion, it will be hard for me not to have him in the party at all times. He's been the constant in 1st my run so far (only mid way through act2) as a DW rogue.

[Zan Mura]

Haha. Varric's useless? Next you'll say Fenris sucks? You do realise there's a reason why he collects so much aggro, even when specced for threat reduction talents? The reason is simple: he does a whole lot of damage.

I don't mean to be patronizing here though. I never got tactics working to a satisfactory level myself, and the AI is wholly reliable in only one thing: attacking all the wrong mobs and always running into friendly fire or doing their best to otherwise screw up aggro. So when micromanaged properly, Varric is a beast. He does amazing ranged damage, has loads of utility and AoE's, is easily the best company to have with you in the game, and of course can also open the locks and disable the traps.

But as others have said, two of almost anything is a crowd really. Aside from a mage perhaps. So far I've found that the easiest group to work with is one of each: a tank, a 2h cleave warrior, a rogue, and a mage.

[Rehwyn]

Zan Mura wrote...

Haha. Varric's useless? Next you'll say Fenris sucks? You do realise there's a reason why he collects so much aggro, even when specced for threat reduction talents? The reason is simple: he does a whole lot of damage.

I don't mean to be patronizing here though. I never got tactics working to a satisfactory level myself, and the AI is wholly reliable in only one thing: attacking all the wrong mobs and always running into friendly fire or doing their best to otherwise screw up aggro. So when micromanaged properly, Varric is a beast. He does amazing ranged damage, has loads of utility and AoE's, is easily the best company to have with you in the game, and of course can also open the locks and disable the traps.

But as others have said, two of almost anything is a crowd really. Aside from a mage perhaps. So far I've found that the easiest group to work with is one of each: a tank, a 2h cleave warrior, a rogue, and a mage.

Gonna agree about the party comp, assuming the 2H cleave warrior is Hawke (if on Nightmare). Fenris has obliterated my party a few times when I'm not careful. ~_~

Two mages work well, especially if one is defensive/buff oriented and the other DPS. That's why I like Merrill and Anders.

Two rogues... kinda redundant, though you'll do lots of single-target DPS.

Really, having a balanced party is best in my opinion simply because cross-class combos are so strong, at least on higher difficulties.

[Zan Mura]

Rehwyn wrote...

Really, having a balanced party is best in my opinion simply because cross-class combos are so strong, at least on higher difficulties.

Couldn't agree more. While some redundancy in class choices in a party might be fun for the variation and challenge, and while I certainly agree that you can excel at any ONE area by having more classes suited for that... overall I'd say the tank / 2h / rogue / mage is easily the best. I made a video of the Hybris fight in Nightmare but have no clue how to piece the avi's up and compress them. Reason I said that is because to me it's a most funny example of what I mean.

In a normal fight, my Hawke (rogue) does little more than look good next to Anders and Aveline, while Fenris can cleave the 50 mobs down. But Fenris is almost utterly useless against anything other than trash mobs. With lieutenants and assassins, Aveline and rogueHawke start to play a much larger role, as does Anders' support through spells. Then the real bad boss fights like the Hybris one are almost entirely played by Aveline's tanking and STAGGER setup, while using the rogueHawke to do those ridiculous 10k crit combos to produce singletarget damage unlike anything a 2h warrior could even dream of.

Personally I always play with a dedicated group, as opposed to switching party members in mid-game.

But now I'm going off topic.

[Lowenhart]

You joking right OP, Varric one the best companions in the game.

Modifié par Lowenhart, 17 mars 2011 - 09:12 .

[Togra_blah]

Rehwyn wrote...

Scoundrel threat abilities and a good set of tactics is pretty key to a good Varric. Also, I'd recommend people get Pinning Shot and both it's upgrades. It's good CC, damage, and the Disorient opens up combos.

I personally wouldn't ignore his Cunning if he's the only Rogue because I like opening locked things and avoiding traps. Also, Glancing Blows on bosses affect auto-attacks only, by the way, not abilities.

Just to demonstrate what my level 26 Varric's stats look like with party buffs (which you should always consider when distributing points):



That's with Bianco's Song, Heroic Aura (upgraded), and Speed (with the Harmony bonuses). I think I can deal with a 4% chance for reduced auto-attack damage on a boss in return for bigger crit damage (on both attacks and abilities) and the ability to open any locks. Not to mention with those sustains and his passives he's at +55% attack speed.

One problem with the tactics you have for Varric: the tactic for Back-to-Back won't work properly, since he tries to target himself with it. For Back-to-Back to work you need something like this:

Self: Attacked by melee | Use condition for next tactic
Anders: Any | Use ability: Back-to-Back

In this case, Anders is the target of Back-to-Back.

EDIT: Oh, and here's his abilites.



Upgrades: Pinning Shot (both), Goad, Armistice, all Marksman, Evade (I like having a stun, which completely wipes aggro)

Kickback, while relatively low damage, is nice because you can have him use it on anything attacking your squishies (or staggered stuff, when upgraded) and the huge physical force will almost always knockdown. Follow-Through (1% stamina per hit) is better than +10 stam/mana regen because of how fast he attacks.

Pinning shot i'm on the fence about - my build focuses on auto-attack dps, since AoE is risky on Nightmare, and i have so many sustaineds i prefer to generally conserve stamina for aggro management.

The Disorient option is neat tho (i hadn't noticed that upgrade, ty), so i may get it eventually.

Now i'm a bit confused on the stats, tho - notice here, my lvl 17 Varric's attack is at 1k'ish (not all buffs active), but his hit is only 84% on a boss.



However, i see your lvl 26 Varric is at about 700, but 96% against a boss.

I'm guessing it may be related to difficulty, but idk.

AhhhA! That must be why back to back has been working strangely - i only recently learned of the Use this condition for next tactic argument - that's exactly what i need to fix back to back, tyvm!

I've debated the Stun on Evade..... my reading has been conflicted in regards to whether stun wipes aggro, or if the stunned mob usually just goes for same target again..... (in game manual stating the prior, and a loading tip the latter, if memory serves).

Kickback i'll get as per your suggestion - i like your idea of using it to push things away from squishies, and i really need to start working on my CCC's.

I wasn't sure on exact mechanics/which is better from a meta-gaming perspective between 1% per hit and 10% regen..... i'll get both eventually.

[TJSolo]

Jarlaxlecq wrote...

^ hes pretty right, you only need 1 rogue in a group and if Hawke is one.....

Pfft my team I moslty used after act 1 was My DW rogue, Isabella as a dodge tank, Merrill with stone armor, and Anders.
Finding various stun and knockback immunity items caused business to really pick up.

[GunClubGirl]

I like having two rogues but I prefer the Hawke/Sebastian/Isabela choices. I only used Varric when I was required to and didn't miss him the rest of the time.

[Glorfindel709]

I used Varric the entire game..... 2 Mage, 2 Rogue party (Myself, Merrill, Varric, and Isabela) and we were damn near unstoppable.

Varric was the only constant companion that I had in DA2

[Daeltaja]

At the end of Act 2 now, only had to drop down to hard once at the start, and have had Varric in my team the entire time. The guy is a bloomin' animal. I have him specced for massive crits and crit damage and he just devours enemy health bars.

That being said, I've had him die stupidly because my micro-management failed or he started shooting too early. For the majority of trash fights, while I run in with tank Hawke and build as much threat with AoE abilities as possible. I then group select and focus fire each mob down 1-by-1, at which point is a chore as Varric annihilates them. Coupled with Merril or Sabastian (100% crit from behind position is lol) and a imp.haste from Anders with Varrics speed on, it's a glorious thing to watch.

He is rolling with about 55% crit buffed and 68% crit damage at level 16. I'd love to take Isabella out more but I feel rogues are way too much of a liability on Nightmare.

Stick a few points into Const or Str for less knockback and you should see an improvement too. What I will say though, is as things can often get hectic with random spawns, Varric needs a fair amount of micro'ing, on Nightmare at least.

Good luck!

[naughty99]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

I used Varric the entire game..... 2 Mage, 2 Rogue party (Myself, Merrill, Varric, and Isabela) and we were damn near unstoppable.

Varric was the only constant companion that I had in DA2

Wow, which difficulty level did you play on? It sounds like it could be fun but I think it would be very hard to pull off on Nightmare or Hard without a 2H warrior tank.

[Rehwyn]

Togra_blah wrote...

Pinning shot i'm on the fence about - my build focuses on auto-attack dps, since AoE is risky on Nightmare, and i have so many sustaineds i prefer to generally conserve stamina for aggro management.

The Disorient option is neat tho (i hadn't noticed that upgrade, ty), so i may get it eventually.

Now i'm a bit confused on the stats, tho - notice here, my lvl 17 Varric's attack is at 1k'ish (not all buffs active), but his hit is only 84% on a boss.



However, i see your lvl 26 Varric is at about 700, but 96% against a boss.

I'm guessing it may be related to difficulty, but idk.

AhhhA! That must be why back to back has been working strangely - i only recently learned of the Use this condition for next tactic argument - that's exactly what i need to fix back to back, tyvm!

I've debated the Stun on Evade..... my reading has been conflicted in regards to whether stun wipes aggro, or if the stunned mob usually just goes for same target again..... (in game manual stating the prior, and a loading tip the latter, if memory serves).

Kickback i'll get as per your suggestion - i like your idea of using it to push things away from squishies, and i really need to start working on my CCC's.

I wasn't sure on exact mechanics/which is better from a meta-gaming perspective between 1% per hit and 10% regen..... i'll get both eventually.

Those shots are all on Nightmare.  The hit and attack difference is because of the diminishing returns I talked about.  After a certain point, more Attack Rating (from gear or stats) barely improves your hit percentage at all. However, sustains/group buffs that increase attack % are NOT subject to the diminishing returns and get added to it at a flat rate.

Without any sustains or group buffs, my Varric is only at 81/66/51% hit rates. When buffed, he gets these bonuses though:

Heroic Aura (Anders): +15% attack
Bianca's Song: +20% attack
Speed (with Harmony bonus): +10% attack

So that's +45% attack. This is directly added to the 81/66/51% attack percentages, making 96% on bosses.

EDIT: On a side note, if you're playing on anything but Nightmare, giving Varric Archer's Lace + Punishing Lance is really, really high damage, especially if you have a mage with a few forms of Brittle. Using it on Nightmare however... will kill your party members.

Modifié par Rehwyn, 18 mars 2011 - 12:15 .

[Togra_blah]

Rehwyn wrote...

Those shots are all on Nightmare.  The hit and attack difference is because of the diminishing returns I talked about.  After a certain point, more Attack Rating (from gear or stats) barely improves your hit percentage at all. However, sustains/group buffs that increase attack % are NOT subject to the diminishing returns and get added to it at a flat rate.

Without any sustains or group buffs, my Varric is only at 81/66/51% hit rates. When buffed, he gets these bonuses though:

Heroic Aura (Anders): +15% attack
Bianca's Song: +20% attack
Speed (with Harmony bonus): +10% attack

So that's +45% attack. This is directly added to the 81/66/51% attack percentages, making 96% on bosses.

EDIT: On a side note, if you're playing on anything but Nightmare, giving Varric Archer's Lace + Punishing Lance is really, really high damage, especially if you have a mage with a few forms of Brittle. Using it on Nightmare however... will kill your party members.

OMG that's gonna be a game-changer for me lol i had no idea about the diminishing return system, nor that the % were direct hit %!

That's gonna mean i can redistribute points a TON - thanks for educating me!

[Rehwyn]

No problem.

Btw, I should mention that I didn't get all the Specialist talents until real late. They were more the "finishing touches" to the build to pump out just a little more damage. Getting just one of them (Speed or Precision, depending), could be worth it probably.

[Zan Mura]

Togra_blah wrote...

OMG that's gonna be a game-changer for me lol i had no idea about the diminishing return system, nor that the % were direct hit %!

That's gonna mean i can redistribute points a TON - thanks for educating me!

Agreed. Finally learning something new and proper here. I've also wasted too many points in this per character, considering a single party-wide buff would give that huge a bonus. Especially on my rogue who's built for max cunning anyway for the +crit damage.

[Ganen]

varric and isabella dont do much good early on, they need plenty of abilities and reach lvl caps for the nice stuff.

isabella becomes a nice offtank with pretty strong single target dps too, if you got for the full "duelist" tree early on too (you do have to sacrifice dex for cuning and constituiton and even willpower for that tho) on nightmare mode its dangerous to use her like that, needs alot of micro managing during combat.

varric particulary becomes a single target dps beast (bianca is hax) at around lvl 10-12 if you go for the right talents as earliest as possible, namely precision + bianca's song and then followup in the bard tree to get the passive +20% speed bonus, its like... minigun bianca.

Modifié par Ganen, 18 mars 2011 - 02:36 .

[CitizenSnips]

Lowenhart wrote...

You joking right OP, Varric one the best companions in the game.

[Blessed Silence]

Jarlaxlecq wrote...

Don't get me wrong, Im not saying he's useless. He's got a permanent spot on my group. Its just that I find two rogues not as useful. Which is a shame as I'd love to have room in my group for isabela but can never seem to make it work

Yeah I have Varric and Sebby with Aveline and me as the healer .. good lord Aveline runs around like crazy because Sebby and Varric draw the aggro .. but with their high crists and damage they can make short work of enemies.

[Zigabogado]

So, after some past fails and all. I'ma reset the game, even though I'm already in act 3.
I've done terrible on setting stats and things. I'll keep the same party, just change myself to an archer, also. Thanks for all the help, guys, I'll take note on it so I don't fail this time, XD