78 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Yes, it seems stupid, that she let love cloud her jugdement and put saving Merril over the wellbeing of the clan. Another possibility is that she has some notion of what that mirror would do and thought that taking the demon into herself was less risky than letting Merril make a deal with it regarding the mirror.

It might have been specific instructions from Flemeth. Perhaps she found out that Morrigan is also using those mirrors.
Flemeth knew exactly where that clan would be and the Keeper seems to know Flemeth from before.

Interesting idea. Flemeth obviously has a connection to the clan of some kind.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...

What I'm wondering about Marethari is what debt was it that tied her to Flemeth? She says she's tied to a debt needing to be repaid to Flemeth just as much as Hawke when you hand over the amulet.

I should have known you'd ninja me on this and bring up Flemeth lol

Yea, I think it had something to do with Flemeth. Apparently, Flemeth is keen on debt being repaid in full.
Did the Keeper pay her debt already before dying? Was that the debt she had to pay (stall the mirror maybe)?

[Trobon18]

Merrill made a very bad choice, but the Keeper did what she could to save everyone she could. If she had not taken the demon into herself it was very likely that Merrill would have returned and taken the demon inside of herself. Without the strength that the Keeper has it could have ended much worse. So I think the Keeper did what was right.

[Brockololly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

What I'm wondering about Marethari is what debt was it that tied her to Flemeth? She says she's tied to a debt needing to be repaid to Flemeth just as much as Hawke when you hand over the amulet.

I should have known you'd ninja me on this and bring up Flemeth lol

Yea, I think it had something to do with Flemeth. Apparently, Flemeth is keen on debt being repaid in full.
Did the Keeper pay her debt already before dying? Was that the debt she had to pay (stall the mirror maybe)?

Haha

It could be that like you mentioned, Marethari's debt to Flemeth was essentially taking in the demon so as to prevent Merril from learning whatever it is about the Eluvians, and in turn that somehow throws a wrench in whatever it is Morrigan is doing with the Eluvians.

Or not- the whole Dalish-Flemeth angle wasn't really any more fleshed out than what we had seen in Origins or read in The Stolen Throne. And the whole Eluvian plotline with Merril seemed to putter out pretty quickly, but it was bugged for me so thats in part why it seemed to lack any conclusion.

[Lord Atlia]

Bah, Marethari single-handedly stopped insane Hawke from shaping Merrill into a more adorable version of Gul'dan. All that pro demon reinforcement gone to waste.

[Darian Tylmare]

No offense but the Keeper was old anyway so she might have thought it's the best to save the next or probably even younger generations of her clan through her sacrifice.

[Pileyourbodies]

But the keeper was basically dooming that clans culture to die. Merril is exiled and the keeper is dead that clans whole history is gone now.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...
Or not- the whole Dalish-Flemeth angle wasn't really any more fleshed out than what we had seen in Origins or read in The Stolen Throne. And the whole Eluvian plotline with Merril seemed to putter out pretty quickly, but it was bugged for me so thats in part why it seemed to lack any conclusion.

Oh so there is a bug? Because I felt the quest didn't have a real ending either.

Maybe the entire thing was just to make Flemeth show up. But I hope it's more than this. 

[Trobon18]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

But the keeper was basically dooming that clans culture to die. Merril is exiled and the keeper is dead that clans whole history is gone now.

I had assumed that she took a new First when Merrill left. Was that not true? I mean 6 years isn't a ton of time to train a new First I will admit, but I am sure they will carry on.

[Foolsfolly]

Blood magic DOES always involve demons. Demons teach it to mages. It's incredibly powerful and in exchange for blood magic the demon gets what it wants.

Like the Warden could have sold Connor's life to the Desire Demon in order to learn Blood Magic in Origins. Plus Merrill did make a deal with a Pride Demon, a deal that Merithari paid....and then her whole clan got slaughtered for. All for a damned mirror.

....kinda wish Reaver and Blood Magic had to be unlocked in DA2....but at the same time...it was a headache the first damned time.

KnightofPhoenix, you're a cool guy. Good point....man, I wish Flemeth got a little more explaining in this story.

[Darian Tylmare]

Trobon18 wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

But the keeper was basically dooming that clans culture to die. Merril is exiled and the keeper is dead that clans whole history is gone now.

I had assumed that she took a new First when Merrill left. Was that not true? I mean 6 years isn't a ton of time to train a new First I will admit, but I am sure they will carry on.

And the Dalish accepted anyway that great parts of their culture are foreever lost anyway.

[Brockololly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Or not- the whole Dalish-Flemeth angle wasn't really any more fleshed out than what we had seen in Origins or read in The Stolen Throne. And the whole Eluvian plotline with Merril seemed to putter out pretty quickly, but it was bugged for me so thats in part why it seemed to lack any conclusion.

Oh so there is a bug? Because I felt the quest didn't have a real ending either.

Maybe the entire thing was just to make Flemeth show up. But I hope it's more than this. 

It was bugged for me as I was friendly with Merril the whole way, never even flirting and at the start of Act 3 I go to talk to her and she's all mopey crying in front of the Eluvian talking about her clan being dead and everything. ANd I'm just massively confused thinking I missed something. You talk to her again though and she's back to her cheery self talking about the Eluvian but the Eluvian bugged out and vanished from her house.

So it seemed like the last dialogue cutscene actually played first in that Act, before I had even done her quest.

[Maria Caliban]

Yah, the Merrill quest seems bugged. If you listen to Merrill when she first introduces herself, it sounds like they did a patch job with the voice as well.

I wonder if there's a bit of cut content we're missing? Merrill's storyline is interesting but it seems to be the least important when it comes to the main plot.

Darian Tylmare wrote...

No offense but the Keeper was old anyway so she might have thought it's the best to save the next or probably even younger generations of her clan through her sacrifice.

Possibly.

It might have been nice if there was a throw away line about the Keeper seeing great things in Merrill or her knowing she was growing old and saving Merrill was more important than saving herself.

But if that was the case, I think she'd have told the Dalish *not* to attack Merrill and her friends. Merithari must have known how her clan would react to her disappearing and Merrill returning covered in blood.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 16 mars 2011 - 05:37 .

[Zaros]

Maria Caliban wrote...
I wonder if there's a bit of cut content we're missing? Merrill's storyline is interesting but it seems to be the least important when it comes to the main plot.

Which means that after months of DLC, we will eventually come to some grand conclusion that some single aspect of the Dalish culture that seemed to be unimportant and forgotten at first was actually super important all along.

[Foolsfolly]

Zaros wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
I wonder if there's a bit of cut content we're missing? Merrill's storyline is interesting but it seems to be the least important when it comes to the main plot.

Which means that after months of DLC, we will eventually come to some grand conclusion that some single aspect of the Dalish culture that seemed to be unimportant and forgotten at first was actually super important all along.

That lost thaig from Act 1 is actually Arlathan.

What's that? That doesn't explain the golems? Well, that's true but that was a plot hole anyway. That thaig's older than the shaperate's Memories (according to the Codex) which means it was long before Cairdin and his Golems. So...whatever.

[Zenstrive]

The Eluvian is a McGuffin to further proves that whatever they do, Blood Mages are screwed.

[Maria Caliban]

Foolsfolly wrote...

That lost thaig from Act 1 is actually Arlathan.

That would be cool.

We know it sunk beneath the ground. We know the inhabitants were forced to eat lyrium because they couldn't escape.

However, the architecture is all dwarven and the golems.

Still, it would be neat.

Foolsfolly wrote...

That thaig's older than the shaperate's Memories (according to the Codex) which means it was long before Cairdin and his Golems. So...whatever.

It said that it's not in the Memories. Didn't it? A sunken elven city probably wouldn't appear in the Memories.

But it's connected to the Deep Roads.

Do we know when Cairdin made his golems?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 16 mars 2011 - 06:26 .

[Kerilus]

The Keeper did not contain the demon withn her for 6 years, she only did so after I asked her to talk some sense into Merrill. But I do agree that while her love for Merrill is great, she was neglecting her duty as a Keeper for endangering her clan by staying so long.

[Emperor Iaius I]

It's the Keeper's fault, plain and simple. Merrill knew what she was doing. She knew her odds of success were low, she knew there was great risk of possession, and she knew it meant she would have to be killed. She accepted all this for the sake of her people. They didn't appreciate it. Her Keeper, who should have known her better than anyone, didn't trust her. Nobody gave her any sort of support, and when the Keeper ruined everything by *willingly* taking in the demon, everybody blamed Merrill for it, as if the Keeper had no responsibility.

It's disgusting. The Dalish deserve to love their heritage and culture, but it would be a shame to let the petty small-mindedness of her clan deprive the future generations of what Merrill was trying to do. The Keeper had no idea what the mirror would do. It had taken Tamlen because it had been tainted by darkspawn. Merrill cleansed the taint. She knew what she was doing.

Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with blood magic. As noted, the ancient Tevinter magisters were able to *control* the demons--such was their mastery of magic that they could assault the Golden City itself. Now mages are barely trained and kept forcibly ignorant: it's no wonder they access powers beyond their knowledge and get overwhelmed. Merrill wasn't being emotional. She was thoughtful. She was educated. She was careful. She didn't let it consume her. It's telling that she never went down the path of other blood mages, despite using it for years. It's also telling that the Tevinter blood mages we see aren't psychotic like those of Kirkwall.

Merrill was trying to combine the knowledge and potency of the magisters with her sense of responsibility and tradition. She was bravely trying something new and with a good heart and the world hated her for it.

Well, fie on the world! Smolder in your hatreds and light your pitchforks, O angry village people! Slay her for daring to think, deride her for caring about the past (yes, you, Aveline, you philistine giant), and scold her for trying to help her people. She is the biggest, most self-sacrificial person in the whole game and people hate her. Pitiful.

edit: Further, there is a theory that humans learned blood magic not from the old gods, but from the elves of Arlathan. Keep this in mind.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 16 mars 2011 - 06:53 .

[Maria Caliban]

Kerilus wrote...

The Keeper did not contain the demon withn her for 6 years, she only did so after I asked her to talk some sense into Merrill. But I do agree that while her love for Merrill is great, she was neglecting her duty as a Keeper for endangering her clan by staying so long.

That's good to know. Thanks for the heads up.

[Foolsfolly]

Caridin built his Golems for the first Blight. The Shaper's Memories extended to the first thaig and the codex for the thaig at the end of act 1 said that some dwarfs have found thaigs older than the Memories and brought back items as proof. The person who wrote the codex said that it was troubling.

So that thaig shouldn't have had Golems in it.

[Foolsfolly]

Merrill cleansed the taint. She knew what she was doing.

Merrill cleansed the taint with Blood Magic which is kinda like cleaning your kitchen floor with muddy water. There's every kind of possibly that the mirror's still corrupted. Merrill has no idea what powers she's messing with. She's not Morrigan, she's too damn naive.

[Emperor Iaius I]

She's not Morrigan; she has a conscience.

There's nothing inherently corrupting about blood magic. It's an ancient art, maligned by those who fear what they don't understand.She seemed to know a great deal more about the denizens of the Fade than others did.

[MortalEngines]

TexasToast712 wrote...
People seem to think that blood magic always involves demons and that is why it is seen as forbidden. This is not always the case. Its just that the bad ones that have blood magic always try to control demons. Blood magic is just the act of using your blood (or others. BAD) instead of lyrium to power your spells.

The information on how to become a blood mage has been lost after the Chantry destoryed all evidence of it to avoid it being used again. The only way to harness blood magic in the current Thedas is from a Demon and that always requires a deal of some kind.

[errant_knight]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

She's not Morrigan; she has a conscience.

There's nothing inherently corrupting about blood magic. It's an ancient art, maligned by those who fear what they don't understand.She seemed to know a great deal more about the denizens of the Fade than others did.

Riiiiight.... That's why Kirkwall, the place where bloodmages seem to grow on trees, is overflowing with abominations. That's why Merrill couldn't resist the demon in the fade and turned on the party. Because she's so knowlegable.