78 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

There IS something inherently corrupting about blood magic. Read the Band of Three codexes hidden throughout the acts. The Magisters sacrificed hundreds for some unknown reason but it had to eventually pay off in more power.

Blood magic is powerful, it controls minds and turns a person's own body and life essence against itself. And this all powerful magic is no different than any other power; and power corrupts.

[Kerilus]

Although I develop my love for Merrill afterwards, she was quite a dumb biatch in the fade. Who on the bloody Thedas would fall for that?

[MortalEngines]

Kerilus wrote...

Although I develop my love for Merrill afterwards, she was quite a dumb biatch in the fade. Who on the bloody Thedas would fall for that?

What you heard and saw the demon say to Merrill is not what she saw. For all we know the demon was doing some sort of trick to her mind to convince her join her (maybe showing Merrill scenes of her being revered by her clan or something).

[Emperor Iaius I]

All your companions except Anders fall for a demon's tricks. The difference is that Merrill's wasn't a selfish desire.

Foolsfolly: I'll look for those codices, but using a thing for evil does not inherently make the thing itself evil. The notion that power corrupts is an important one, but only in the sense that it advocates responsibility and acknowledgement of the dangers of power. If we simply plug our ears and say no, we're not acting responsibly at all: this is a childlike response.

it is better to know the risks, be aware of them, minimize and mitigate them, and then do something in the hopes of accomplishing something gainful. Merrill did this.

[Kriselia]

Wasn't the reason the clan stayed outside Kirkwall all that time the fact that they'd lost all their halla somehow?
I remember the npcs talking about this, and one of them mentioned in Act 2 that they were hoping to borrow some halla from another clan.

Also, in Act 3 one of the ambient dialogues had Master Ilen tell his apprentices that they were leaving even if no-one else would, which I suppose they would have to do without an aravel since the halla were still nowhere to be seen.

[Kerilus]

MortalEngines wrote...

Kerilus wrote...

Although I develop my love for Merrill afterwards, she was quite a dumb biatch in the fade. Who on the bloody Thedas would fall for that?

What you heard and saw the demon say to Merrill is not what she saw. For all we know the demon was doing some sort of trick to her mind to convince her join her (maybe showing Merrill scenes of her being revered by her clan or something).

Well, the demon tried to trick me first, and that was merely a question.

[Foolsfolly]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

All your companions except Anders fall for a demon's tricks. The difference is that Merrill's wasn't a selfish desire.

Foolsfolly: I'll look for those codices, but using a thing for evil does not inherently make the thing itself evil. The notion that power corrupts is an important one, but only in the sense that it advocates responsibility and acknowledgement of the dangers of power. If we simply plug our ears and say no, we're not acting responsibly at all: this is a childlike response.

it is better to know the risks, be aware of them, minimize and mitigate them, and then do something in the hopes of accomplishing something gainful. Merrill did this.

Merrill does hold her ears and act like she's not responsible. After she betrays you in the Fade she brushes off the incident like it's nothing. That wasn't nothing, that was proof positive that if it came to it she would sell everything to a demon. Even Anders knows this and tells Hawke this.

Merrill's too naive for her own good. She thinks she has a handle on things but she does not. And how exactly does that mirror save her people? Why is she risking so much for nothing other than rebuilding a shattered mirror?

Does she even know? She's just obessing over this cursed thing that should be left to rot where Duncan broke it.

[Kerilus]

The mirrior is a very significant piece of the history of the elves. To remember is vital to the existence of he Dalish, and an artifact that might bring tremendous insight to elven history is certainly something worth the risk, at least from the way Merrill see it.

Modifié par Kerilus, 16 mars 2011 - 07:46 .

[Zack Ross]

I agree that the Mirror should be left where it was to rot. Duncan broke the damn good thing for good reasons. Even still, the problem with this whole situation, and I find with the game for that matter is EVERYONE makes bad choices here. I don't know if everyone in the Free Marches woke up stupid, I bet they put something in the water. But every step of the way, I find characters judgments to be questionable even on a good day. Not to mention in the situations where it really counts, you have no way to stop these things from happening. In terms of the Keeper, I tried the scenario again and I -didn't- tell her to talk some sense into Merill? She still took the demon into herself anyway. Once again you aren't given a choice to effect the situation in a meaningful way, merely the fallout from it.

I look at Blood Magic like the Dark Side of the Force. Yes it corrupts, and it can easily corrupt. But a strong will can bend it to serve good. Is it necessarily meant to serve good? God no. It's Blood Magic. But it can be bent to do whatever you want, provided you have the will to control it.It corrupts and enslaves the weak, but there are people who can bend it to their will. Like the Tevinter Magisters. Even the Hero of Fereldan, my Mage was a Blood Mage. One that made all the morally right choices.

I don't fault Merill, not a bit. I've taken her into that mission in the Fade with High friend status and had her not turn on me. Hell I even called the Keeper foolish, and Anders actually AGREED with me. On my first play through he questioned how I could keep condoning what she does, and on the second one he agrees with me.

I think what she did was foolish, I think Merill trying all this for the mirror is a bit foolish. Most of all I take issue with the fact she wasn't given any support, just spit on. It gave her all the justification she needed and solidified her resolve. Everyone is to blame here. Everyone.

[Foolsfolly]

Kerilus wrote...

The mirrior is a very significant piece of the history of the elves. To remember is vital to the existence of he Dalish, and an artifact that might bring tremendous insight to elven history is certainly something worth the risk, at least from the way Merrill see it.

But she says it will save her people. All this is to save her people and I respect that. I love that she's so committed to saving her people, but this is above her pay grade. That mirror is too dangerous for someone that naive and easily misled. All she did was put her clan in danger and possibly wipe them out completely in the search for knowledge.

And let's not forget that she's so confident in her abilities....after she dealt with a Pride Demon.

I like the character. I like how tragically flawed she is. She's bright but not smart enough to handle the task she's given herself and everyone around her suffers for it. She tried to save her people but doomed them instead.

If she really wanted to help she should have found some halla and then they could halla their asses off of that cursed mountain and away from that pit of despair called the City of Chains.

[Emperor Iaius I]

She never had the chance to try, though. How can we say she doomed them when we don't even know what would have happened? Pride demons are the most powerful of all--but it must be remembered that demons do follow through with their promises. Then they possess you.

She knew this would happen. She wanted the demon to fix the mirror and help her people, and then she wanted Hawke to kill her. She spent years studying the mirror--what do you think all those books scattered all over her apartment are for? It's only the illusion of the game that masks just how much work she put into it: and she says so, even after the Keeper died. She *doesn't* regret what she did; she hates that her people were so foolishly stubborn.

[Bigdoser]

I let her do what she wants she told me she will take all responsiblity and if she gets possesed she asked me to kill her she knew what she was doing is dangerous so she decided to take all the concequces that a responsible person would, but the keeper jumped into the situation without asking.

[AlexXIV]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I like the Keeper. She was one of the best NPCs in the game (naturally, she had to die) and I feel she was a good person.

But I disagree with what she did.

First, she took a demon into herself, telling no one, and then she made her clan sit outside a Templar occupied city for six years, all for Merrill.

I'm going to guess that she is the equivalent to an Olympic gold medalist when it comes to willpower as she was able to contain a pride demon for so long, but what if she faltered? Imagine her succumbing to the demon when Hawke, Merrill, and the other companions weren't there. Pretty sure that dalish clan would have been wiped out and the countryside endangered.

Pride demon + Keeper = Incredibly powerful abomination.

[Edit: I was wrong about this. She did not have the demon inside of her for six years. ]

And what about the swarm of Templar's in Kirkwall? We know that Knight-Commander Meredith is obsessed when it comes to hunting apostates. After six years, that the dalish were camping out in Sundermount would reach her ears. Again, the clan could be wiped out.

Even if everything goes according to her plan, the clan loses its Keeper and they're obviously not going to take Merrill back after she murdered Merithari.

So we have a Keeper who puts her entire clan in horrible danger and ensures it will be leaderless for... what?

Merrill?

I adore Merrill but Merithari ought to value the clan over her First possibly becoming an abomination.

Well obviously she liked Merril more than her clan. I can't really blame her on a personal side, but her role as keeper probably asked for the opposite. I am not sure why she did it, since Hawke did the 'impossible' before for the dreamer boy, so why shouldn't he/she be able to do the same for Merrill? Also I think most people, if they had the choice to kill Merrill or keep her from perfoming the last ritual they would have chosen to keep her.

Anyway I feel it is another matter of Bioware 'teaching' us. Like they taught us that bloodmagic is bad when a bloodmage killed Hawke's mom. In this case we learn that you can't use bloodmagic and expect that you are the only one who is harmed, because something bad is comming from it which is out of your control. I find the whole approach of Bioware to 'guide' the player in a certain direction rather pretentious and biased. It is not hard to notice that they want us to hate magic and especially bloodmagic.

I think Bioware figured after DA:O too many people figured that bloodmagic is not as bad as the chantry makes it, probably because of Morrigan. But honstly, as long as the main character can use bloodmagic without ever having to go something like an evil path, this will never work. Because as a bloodmage you can still resist all demons and have a playthrough that doesn't require anyone to die because of your bloodmagic.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 16 mars 2011 - 10:14 .

[Persephone]

errant_knight wrote...

Anders was just really nasty to Merril at the end of that battle, and he wasn't wrong. Pretty ironic given what he eventually did, though, talking about people getting hurt. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that part of what we saw in the game was Anders losing his mind over the decade, or at least any semblance of control over Vengence.

Agreed. Well said.

[MasterSamson88]

Maria Caliban wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Merrill doomed herself to blood magic.

Merrill doesn't seem very doomed to me. She willingly left the clan. She told Hawke to kill her if the demon possessed her.

The blood magic didn't seem to factor into things.

errant_knight wrote...

Anders was just really nasty to Merril at the end of that battle, and he wasn't wrong. Pretty ironic given what he eventually did, though, talking about people getting hurt. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that part of what we saw in the game was Anders losing his mind over the decade, or at least any semblance of control over Justice.

When we went into the sewers to get his salt peter, Anders turned to me and said, "You know, Merrill will never give up her demon for you."

I just sat there and thought, 'Wow. Look who's talking.'

I also liked Aveline's banter with him, "If all the mages I know, I always assumed you'd be the one to go out in a blaze."

Even in banter with Merrill and Anders, Merrill is always quick to point out that for all his talk about how Blood magic is so terrible he's the one who is actually possessed, not her. She never had any illusions that the demon she spoke with was good per say, rather she even mentions to Anders that all spirits and demons of the fade are dangerous, no matter what their intentions.

As far as I can tell her blood magic isn't really inherently evil. It seems to mostly be the intentions of the user, plus the only reason she took it up in the first place was to get rid of the taint on the mirror. What blood magic does do it seems is to make you landslide in one direction if you're unstable, because of that I wont deny that it can easily corrupt someone. We saw this with Orsino and the other mages who were cornered by Templars throughout the game. 

Overall though, I think I heard Merrill mention that Merathari had a new first, though she never appears in game) so if she was going to sacrifice herself for Merrill, it seems like she at least had a plan for her people. In which case I think she did the right thing.

[RazorrX]

I think the keeper thought of Merril as her daughter. She was hoping that you could turn her away from her plans, and that she would return to the Dalish.

She kept staying in hopes that Merril would return, and to try to protect her. IF you remember Merril talks about her mother singing, then says the keeper does not have a good singing voice. I got that the keeper used to sing Merril lullabys, etc.

What you saw with the Dalish was how OTHER people pay for blood magic. Merril did not pay the cost, the one who loved her did.

[shaneho78]

I still can't believe the game forced me to kill the whole clan. To hear Merrill voice her usual combat taunts (" i hope the maker ....... you coz i won't") while actively killing her clan-mates was disturbing to say the least.

Edit: It seems that killing the clan was avoidable after all. Oh well.

Modifié par shaneho78, 16 mars 2011 - 03:20 .

[Tarwater03]

I stuck my shiv in the back of Anders first thing. Never liked him.

As for Merrill, I sensed the writing on the wall. So, I never took her back to her clan. She kept saying things like, "It seems like I'm forgetting to do something..." As in, she was forgetting about the mirror.

So instead of something bad happening, I guess Merrill and I lived out the rest of our days in our Hightown mansion.

[Emzamination]

Well she was old and didn't have too many years left anyway but I still disagree with what she did.

If I were in her shoes I'd wait for the demon to possess merill then kill it.

We must all reap what we sow.

[mesmerizedish]

Did she do right by the clan? Absolutely not. She completely neglected her responsibility as Keeper for Merrill's sake.

Did she do right by Merrill? Maybe. But how did she know what the demon's plan was, and why couldn't she have just talked to Merrill about it before either of them did something drastic?

Was Merrill right about the Eluvian? I think so. There's nothing bad about the mirrors in and of themselves. The elves of Arlathan used them for centuries. They're elven artifacts, and Merrill's right about it being the Keeper's place to remember. Marethari's stance on the mirror was cowardly and wrong.

Was Merrill in any way responsible for what happened? No. Not in the least bit. She's right; it was her burden to bear and her risk to take. The Keeper made her own decision and neither th clan nor Merrill can justly try to blame Merrill for what happened.

[Gorthaur X]

Foolsfolly wrote...

There IS something inherently corrupting about blood magic. Read the Band of Three codexes hidden throughout the acts. The Magisters sacrificed hundreds for some unknown reason but it had to eventually pay off in more power.

Blood magic is powerful, it controls minds and turns a person's own body and life essence against itself. And this all powerful magic is no different than any other power; and power corrupts.

In other words, there isn't anything inherently evil about blood magic, as that would imply blood magic being harmful or dangerous beyond comparable power attained by other means.

Also:

Blood magic DOES always involve
demons. Demons teach it to mages. It's incredibly powerful and in
exchange for blood magic the demon gets what it wants.

Like the
Warden could have sold Connor's life to the Desire Demon in order to
learn Blood Magic in Origins. Plus Merrill did make a deal with a Pride
Demon, a deal that Merithari paid....and then her whole clan got
slaughtered for. All for a damned mirror.

There is no reason to assume that blood magic being taught by demons means it can only be taught by demons, any more than learning advanced calculus from a demon would imply that it cannot be learned at a school, or that all mathematicians are evil by extension. Obviously, for instance, it can also be taught by mages who already know it - as evidenced by Orsino, who only needed access to a blood mage's research.

As for Connor's demon, it's possible to essentially bully the demon into teaching you blood magic (or giving any of the other boons she offers) and leaving Connor alone for good without losing anything in the process, as long as your Warden is coercive enough. If anything, that quest proves that it is possible to deal with a demon and come out on top.

[christrek1982]

Maria Caliban wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

She thinks she can deal with demons and come out the winner. She was willing to betray Hawke in the fade, or couldn't resist the demon enough not to do so. I don't see a bright future for Merril.

Merrill doesn't think she'll win. She tells you straight out that dealing with demons always carries a price, she expects that she'll be possessed, and she wants you to kill her when that happens. Her conversations with the other companions going up the mountain are all her saying goodbye.

In Merrill's mind, she's playing a game of Russian roulette. She *hopes* she can win but doesn't expect it. However, to her, the mirror is worth the risk.

As for the Fade, two of your companions will not betray you: Anders and Sebastion. And one of them already has a demon possessing them.

well said just wish theyd fix her quest

[Emperor Iaius I]

We're told it's on the list for the next patch.

[Shadowknight12]

No. She did not do the right thing. As a Keeper, she has a responsibility to her Clan first and foremost. Putting her love for Merrill above her responsibilities was an extremely poor choice, which doesn't do justice to the cunning she displayed in outsmarting Merrill when she requested the arulin'holm.

Alas, what's done is done. I am extremely disappointed that the entire quest chain feels meaningless. Nothing was achieved except death, misery and tragedy. No bit of elvhen lore was gained, no mysteries were solved. It was simply a long, pointless exercise in masochism.

Hawke: "Merrill, this is dangerous."
Merrill: "I know what I'm doing!"

Timeskip.

Hawke: "Merrill, get rid of that damn mirror."
Merrill: "No! You don't understand! Now help me get an ancient relic to fix it!"
Hawke: "No."
Merrill: "I hate you! I'll find another way!"

Timeskip.

Merrill: "I need your help in summoning a demon."
Hawke: "No."
Merrill: "I'm going to do it anyway, so you better come with me to make sure I don't get possessed and kill a bunch of people!"
Marethari: "Knowing you are weak, I have chosen to spare you the inevitable consequences of your lack of wisdom."

Keeper dies.

Merrill: "Nooooooo! This was all HER fault!"
Hawke: "...whatever. Let's collect this rare crafting resource and get out of here."
Dalish: "You have killed our Keeper!"
Hawke: "It wasn't Merrill's fault. I am only telling you this, regardless of what I truly believe, because I think that the last thing you Dalish need right now is being brutally slaughtered."
Dalish: "Hmph. Fine."