54 réponses à ce sujet

[Bleers]

I've long refered to the game mechanic where I defeat an enemy but the story progresses as if I had lost as the unforgiviable sin of game development, the one thing I can never get past in a game. If it happens early, I will just stop playing the game. I thought DA2 started to run out of steam toward the end (especially with giving me NO warning that I was reaching a point of no return with the story), but it really went south when Orsino decided for absolutely no reason to turn into some sort of abomination. I mean, my party had literally just wiped the floor with a group of templar, no one was even close to being injured, and for some reason he ****s the bed and morphs into the blob. I could understand this move if we were overrun, or even if he did this in the middle of combat when the screen was filling with elite Templar, but this simply wasn't the case. His transformation killed exactly 0 templar and only endagered the lives of those that had just (literally) blown every single enemy in the area to bits. I guess he just went insane, and ok maybe I can buy that, but why then? Why not when there was some actual danger, or when he had cause to actually be angry, such as during the fight before the chantry is destroyed?

Its just incredibly poor design to have my party win a battle but the npc reacts as if we are losing. I don't know if this was just some sort of disconnect between the writers and the developers, but this part of the game was just purely horrible in my mind, and honeslty soured my opinion of the game as a whole.

Am I crazy or does anyone actually agree? I know its sort of a pet peeve of mine, but I'd hope other people have similar opinions at least.

Modifié par Bleers, 16 mars 2011 - 05:50 .

[Icy Magebane]

I agree with you. In fact, I've heard a lot of negative opinions toward that scene. Honestly, I was kind of pissed that he just attacks my party and didn't even attempt to go after the Templars. It was just a very poor design choice.

[Raiil]

I think Orsino had just completely lost it. He talks about how wondering why the templars don't just drown them as infants. I don't think his initial intention is to attack the party, but you know, you go and abominate yourself, you don't know how you'll react- Anders pretty much puts that out for Merill at one point, about losing control. I think Orsino thought he was dying regardless- might as well go out with a bang, as it were. But once he went Harvester on us, the demon attacked whatever it saw.

[Taleroth]

Both Orsino and Meredith were handled very sloppy at the end. I hate to make such a judgmental comment, but there it is.  Meredith had better leadup, but it was still disappointing.

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 mars 2011 - 05:42 .

[Oswin]

I agree completely.
I never wanted to pick a side in the first place because in my eyes they're both as bad as each other. But no, Meredith made me and despite them constantly stabbing me in the back I chose the mages.
So what do they do?
Stab me in the back again.
No amount of Anders trying to convince me otherwise after the battle could calm my anger. We were wiping the floor with the Templars and Orsino goes into monster mode and starts killing the only people on his side.
They should have let me go against both of them from the start and killed them both while laughing manically about supreme justice. This would have made me happier.

[Bleers]

I would agree that Meredith did seem a bit sloppy as well, but it wasn't terrible in comparison to the idea that Orsino is so appreciative of my help that he decides to kill me.

The "cutscene" where he transforms doesn't even show a single templar attacking.

Modifié par Bleers, 16 mars 2011 - 05:54 .

[Isaidlunch]

I agree, it felt like it was just an excuse to have another boss fight. It was handled better if you side with the Templars and I would've preferred it to be similar for siding with the mages (having Meredith show up and force Orsino's hand). Also, what exactly was Orsino planning to do as a Harvester? The door leading outside of the room where he transformed is way too small for him to escape. I really hope his plan wasn't to block the Templars from entering the room until all the mages starved to death.

Modifié par Kazanth, 16 mars 2011 - 05:58 .

[highcastle]

*sigh* Orsino did have build up. It was just subtle, and I expect a few people missed it. During All That Remains (the quest in which your mother dies), Hawke finds a note to the killer talking about his research. It's signed O. Before Orsino transforms, he comments that Quentin's research was too dangerous, but he had no choice here. Quentin's the Lily Killer's name for anyone who forgot. Clearly Orsino's been dabbling in some pretty dark things. Even if he didn't do blood magic before, he condoned it's use by another mage.

I also think it's obvious Orsino only did the ritual because he was desperate. There was a shot he could retain control and defeat Meredith, or at least take a hunk of her templars down with him. He gambled wrong.

Neither Meredith nor Orsino are supposed to be entirely sympathetic. They're also not wholly evil. This game is morally gray, thus the ending choice is morally gray. You're not losing by making a choice, but you're also not supposed to feel good about it. Most games leave you feeling the hero. Few have the guts to make you feel anything else. Red Dead Redemption was another great tragedy, albeit for different reasons. I personally tend to respond better to these darker stories than the lighter "everybody lives, good triumphs over evil" stuff.

[errant_knight]

It was a mess, especially when compared to act two, in which the plot was great. Everybody is crazy, everybody is bad, there's no real win and no real ending, just a walk into the unknown from which Hawke may never emerge. Satisfying!

Y'know, sighing at the beginning of your post just makes people think you're being a condescending d**k. You wouldn't want that.

Modifié par errant_knight, 16 mars 2011 - 06:08 .

[Taleroth]

highcastle wrote...

*sigh* Orsino did have build up. It was just subtle, and I expect a few people missed it. During All That Remains (the quest in which your mother dies), Hawke finds a note to the killer talking about his research. It's signed O. Before Orsino transforms, he comments that Quentin's research was too dangerous, but he had no choice here. Quentin's the Lily Killer's name for anyone who forgot. Clearly Orsino's been dabbling in some pretty dark things. Even if he didn't do blood magic before, he condoned it's use by another mage.

I also think it's obvious Orsino only did the ritual because he was desperate. There was a shot he could retain control and defeat Meredith, or at least take a hunk of her templars down with him. He gambled wrong.

Neither Meredith nor Orsino are supposed to be entirely sympathetic. They're also not wholly evil. This game is morally gray, thus the ending choice is morally gray. You're not losing by making a choice, but you're also not supposed to feel good about it. Most games leave you feeling the hero. Few have the guts to make you feel anything else. Red Dead Redemption was another great tragedy, albeit for different reasons. I personally tend to respond better to these darker stories than the lighter "everybody lives, good triumphs over evil" stuff.

There is a subtle leadup.  But it's terrible.  It's forced.

They're not grey.  Meredith is bloody insane.  And committing an act of genocide against a people who are innocent of the crime she's inciting genocide over.  She fails to be even remotely sympathetic.  Orsino is sympathetic to begin with, but when he does something that helps nobody at all, he only comes across as a moron.

You're supposed to have someone to root for.  A player should be rooting for the exemplar of their side.  Feeling joy when the leader of your own side dies is a sign that something has gone very wrong.  We're 20 minutes shy of being in Eight Deadly Words territory.  Expect Darkness Induced Audience Apathy as a result.

[errant_knight]

Taleroth wrote...

There is a subtle leadup.  But it's terrible.  It's forced.

They're not grey.  Meredith is bloody insane.  And committing an act of genocide against a people who are innocent of the crime she's inciting genocide over.  She fails to be even remotely sympathetic.  Orsino is sympathetic to begin with, but when he does something that helps nobody at all, he only comes across as a moron.

You're supposed to have someone to root for.  A player should be rooting for the exemplar of their side.  Feeling joy when the leader of your own side dies is a sign that something has gone very wrong.  We're 20 minutes shy of being in Eight Deadly Words territory.  Expect Darkness Induced Audience Apathy as a result.

Ahhhh, so there's a phrase for that feeling... I got it when Mama Hawke died. I left Hawke standing in his room for a while. I just didn't want to go anywhere--he might as well have stayed sitting and staring at his hands. It came back after I killed Anders, and was what I walked away with at the end. Well, not walked away, not immediately. I stared at the screen for a while.

Modifié par errant_knight, 16 mars 2011 - 06:27 .

[Bleers]

highcastle wrote...

*sigh* Orsino did have build up. It was just subtle, and I expect a few people missed it. During All That Remains (the quest in which your mother dies), Hawke finds a note to the killer talking about his research. It's signed O. Before Orsino transforms, he comments that Quentin's research was too dangerous, but he had no choice here. Quentin's the Lily Killer's name for anyone who forgot. Clearly Orsino's been dabbling in some pretty dark things. Even if he didn't do blood magic before, he condoned it's use by another mage.

I also think it's obvious Orsino only did the ritual because he was desperate. There was a shot he could retain control and defeat Meredith, or at least take a hunk of her templars down with him. He gambled wrong.

Neither Meredith nor Orsino are supposed to be entirely sympathetic. They're also not wholly evil. This game is morally gray, thus the ending choice is morally gray. You're not losing by making a choice, but you're also not supposed to feel good about it. Most games leave you feeling the hero. Few have the guts to make you feel anything else. Red Dead Redemption was another great tragedy, albeit for different reasons. I personally tend to respond better to these darker stories than the lighter "everybody lives, good triumphs over evil" stuff.

Perhaps you misunderstand my point. I don't take issue with him transforming, I caught the O reference and the comment about Quentin. Especially if I side with the Templars, and the Knight-Commander plus the freakin Champion of Kirkwall are coming for him, I can buy that he panics and does what he thinks he has to in order to survive and save some of the mages. It could even be seen as a pretty powerful moment that he would go to such lengths to protect the people he cares about, even going so far as to embrace that which brought about their destruction.

The issue I have is with him doing it when I am on his side and *WHEN WE ARE WINNING THE BATTLE*. He has no reason to be desperate, the templars are dying in mass before my party, not a single one would have been spared. There was no danger at all, no imminent doom to force his transformation regardless of the research he had done previously. *There was not even a single templar on screen*

Modifié par Bleers, 16 mars 2011 - 06:27 .

[Magicman10893]

That part really pissed me off. No one died, not a single Mage of his died because my party was bad-freaking-ass at killed Templars left and right. I even spared Anders so I could use a third, huge AoE spell on top of mine and Merrill's. Then for no reason it shows dead Mages everywhere and he goes all insane and turns into the Harvester and attacks the party and 4 Templars. I understand that he most likely can't control anything after he turned into it, but really, he could've picked a better time to even further fuel the fears about Mages.

However, I understand WHY they made him do it. They needed to maintain that the game is full of completely grey moral choices and they needed to have a reason to hate both the Templars and the Mages that way there is no clear "Good" and "Evil" choices. I haven't sided with Templars yet, so I can't be certain what happens with Meredith when you side with her, but I do know that you have to fight her no matter what also.

[Kingthlayer]

I don't think the demon inside him cared one bit if he was winning or losing. When the demon wants to play it's going to play.

[errant_knight]

The whole thing would have worked better if they'd all been less crazy and easier to sympathize with. It would have made choosing a side really hard. This was pretty easy. Meredith was clearly nuts and wanted to kill people who she knew had nothing to do with it. It I'd sympathized with her at all it would have been a different matter. Having blood mages/abominations everywhere and rapist templars, crazy ass leaders.... I just wanted to kill them all. No, I just wanted to leave. If there'd been an option for 'Say, King Alistair, can I please come back to Ferelden with you? I like Ferelden.' I would have taken it in a heartbeat.

Modifié par errant_knight, 16 mars 2011 - 06:35 .

[Isaidlunch]

I thought I might have had second thoughts about siding with the mages, Meredith seemed like she could have been a sympathetic character who hates what she does but does it because she believes she must. What she says right before the Anders incident gave me a lot of hope that this would be the case. That is until she calls for the Rite of Annulment and justifies it with "people will want blood".

Modifié par Kazanth, 16 mars 2011 - 06:39 .

[Dapper Pomegranate]

This is one of those few times when the rule of cool should not have triumphed...

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

errant_knight wrote...

The whole thing would have worked better if they'd all been less crazy and easier to sympathize with. It would have made choosing a side really hard. This was pretty easy. Meredith was clearly nuts and wanted to kill people who she knew had nothing to do with it. It I'd sympathized with her at all it would have been a different matter. Having blood mages/abominations everywhere and rapist templars, crazy ass leaders.... I just wanted to kill them all. No, I just wanted to leave. If there'd been an option for 'Say, King Alistair, can I please come back to Ferelden with you? I like Ferelden.' I would have taken it in a heartbeat.

/signed

[Bleers]

Bump. Anyone else not a fan of morphing into a harvester to kill the already dead templars?

[Zombievarning]

This is actually one of the few things that really annoyed me, there should've at least been a cutscene with absolutely loads of templars massing through the door and then he transforms, kills half of them and cue; battle starts. Or something like that.

[Adynata]

I didn't understand this morph myself, especially after Orsino just ranted at Anders like this was all his fault when it is Orsino and his circle who have been practicing blood magic in secret. Also, since Meredith and Orsino aren't really in the first two acts, it was really hard for me to have any interest in them as characters or feel compelled to choose a side. I went middle-of-the-road for as long as I could because I thought I'd have the chance to get to know them better as act 3 progressed, but it was a rather abrupt act.

[LadyWench]

highcastle wrote...

Neither Meredith nor Orsino are supposed to be entirely sympathetic.
They're also not wholly evil. This game is morally gray, thus the ending
choice is morally gray. You're not losing by making a choice, but
you're also not supposed to feel good about it. Most games leave you
feeling the hero.

Yes, so true. The fact is, there is no feel-good one "right" choice. No matter what. And that's new and refreshing as a gamer, if pretty icky and depressing-feeling for our champion at first. I LOVED Origins and it's probably still my all-time fave, but it was still cool to get such a different take on the next chapter of the Dragon Age legacy.

Frankly, I don't know how everyone in Kirkwall isn't currently sharing a cell next to Bartrand in the sanitarium (well, if you chose that, lol) after this mess. This place makes Ferelden and the Blight look like a kiddie birthday party.

Edit: That being said, yes, I DO agree that Orsino flipping his s**t if you're on the side of the mages seemed hollow and made little sense. But then...well, I have no idea whats in the Marchers water, but a lot of the things that those characters did left me baffled. I, too, would hightail it back to Ferelden as fast as I could!

Modifié par LadyWench, 16 mars 2011 - 07:55 .

[Kohaku]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

The whole thing would have worked better if they'd all been less crazy and easier to sympathize with. It would have made choosing a side really hard. This was pretty easy. Meredith was clearly nuts and wanted to kill people who she knew had nothing to do with it. It I'd sympathized with her at all it would have been a different matter. Having blood mages/abominations everywhere and rapist templars, crazy ass leaders.... I just wanted to kill them all. No, I just wanted to leave. If there'd been an option for 'Say, King Alistair, can I please come back to Ferelden with you? I like Ferelden.' I would have taken it in a heartbeat.

/signed

Times two. I said the same thing yesterday. Actually a few people have thought the same thing. What's the point of being the Hero of Kirkwall when THAT is what you have to deal with? There's no saving grace to being the hero when you say to yourself, "Damn. I really just wish I could go back home." I even said to Alistair, "Ferelden will always be my home." If only he knew what my character had to contend with.

The only thing I can tell you like others have said before, They just had a need for another boss battle and that's was the only way to go about it. I can't even give you an explantion because what you feel is exactly how I felt.

[Dark Specie]

errant_knight wrote...

The whole thing would have worked better if they'd all been less crazy and easier to sympathize with. It would have made choosing a side really hard. This was pretty easy. Meredith was clearly nuts and wanted to kill people who she knew had nothing to do with it. It I'd sympathized with her at all it would have been a different matter. Having blood mages/abominations everywhere and rapist templars, crazy ass leaders.... I just wanted to kill them all. No, I just wanted to leave. If there'd been an option for 'Say, King Alistair, can I please come back to Ferelden with you? I like Ferelden.' I would have taken it in a heartbeat.

Agreed. Pity indeed that there's no third choice involving cutting both sides down or the like

but all in all, I think Bioware tried too hard here to try and give us a "No side is truly good/justified/whatever here!" scenario, really. The Witcher handled that matter better IMO - no matter what you do, no side is truly pure and things DO go to hell regardless of our actions - but at least you get to kill the guy who instigated the whole conflict and are left with a feeling of accomplishment at the very least as you recover that which was stolen from your order. DAO 2 leaves us with nothing of that sort...

Modifié par Dark Specie, 16 mars 2011 - 04:07 .

[alizrak]

I must say I haven't finished the game yet, but I'm siding with the Templars just because the mage's resolution would have been too stupid for me to handle.

I would have liked any of the following options to be available:
-"Screw this, you are both crazy" *Fight your way out off the city while the battle rages*
-"You both are wrong. You die here!" *Attack them both*

Was that too much to ask? Those would have been actually very logical and "real" answers.  

edit:
" If there'd been an option for 'Say, King Alistair, can I please come back to Ferelden with you? I like Ferelden.' I would have taken it in a heartbeat."

Also this. 

Modifié par alizrak, 16 mars 2011 - 04:35 .