I thought Anders was totally out of line, but I didn't want to kill him, since my Hawke was romancing him and was a mage herself. After Sebastian spouted his threats, I totally wanted to pull out the murder knife. I mean, enough innocents have died already, the city doesn't need him bringing his army to Kirkwall. Since the ending says that Anders and Hawke have disappeared, he wouldn't be getting his revenge anyway.
Who wanted to kill Sebastian after the Chantry blew up?
Débuté par
Ninja Mage
, mars 16 2011 06:08
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#27
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 07:10
errant_knight
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A poor moral compass? Heh, I just heard that in Alistair's voice....Ninja Mage wrote...
You gotta protect what you love. That's why I got the romantic achievement for sticking with Anders, even if he does have a poor moral compass.
That's quite the understatement.
The ironic thing is that Justice (pre-Anders) would have agreed with Sebastian.
Modifié par errant_knight, 16 mars 2011 - 07:14 .
#28
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 07:25
HarlequinKing
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errant_knight wrote...
The ironic thing is that Justice (pre-Anders) would have agreed with Sebastian.
Even Anders in Awakening would've agreed with Sebastian. In the dialogue with Wynne, Anders admits that the Circle's attempt to break free from the templars would be crazy.
#29
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 07:27
errant_knight
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Yes, I think it's quite likely that Anders is neither sane nor the real Anders. Just what's left of the human that Vengence is occupying.HarlequinKing wrote...
errant_knight wrote...
The ironic thing is that Justice (pre-Anders) would have agreed with Sebastian.
Even Anders in Awakening would've agreed with Sebastian. In the dialogue with Wynne, Anders admits that the Circle's attempt to break free from the templars would be crazy.
#30
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 07:29
Ninja Mage
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It's still Anders. His emotions are just amplified now, for good or for bad
#31
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 07:30
Oneiropolos
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(Edited to comment: I haven't chosen to let Anders live. If someone has, does Varric SAY Sebastian went on to bring an army against the innocents of Kirkwall? I mean, Varric is speaking from three years in the future of the story...he would know.)
We also don't know that Sebastian REALLY would have marched against Kirkwall. The man didn't hunt down the Flint company himself, he posted a bounty. He wanted to learn why the Harrimans had betrayed his family before he took action. But cut the guy a break. He wasn't there when his family died. He heard about it, but he probably hadn't even seen them in quite some time. His basically adopted mother and the place where he spends most of his time - it IS his home base after all- were JUST DESTROYED IN FRONT OF HIM. If you ask others what they think, he flat out asks you if you'd be waffling if he was in there. Basically, would you still be questioning it if he as someone who has fought beside you and you've gotten to know dying would make you react differently on what happened. If he's bitter and angry, it's only because he's probably trying to recover from collapsing to his knees. If he's reciting prayers it's because it's the only thing he has to grasp of the woman Anders just murdered.
Sebastian is the one who insists that the Divine can't seriously be considering a march against innocents, and he's horrified to hear that she could. I REALLY doubt he'd put together an army and bring it against Kirkwall. I think someone did the math from what we know of Sebastian and he's 28. He's 28, three years older than me, and he's already lost his two older brothers and his mother and his father... and he watched the place he's lived for all of his adult life just get blown up in front of him because a mage didn't want to allow there to be a compromise. Not because the mage even had something REALLY against who he just murdered. He just had to start a revolution.
In that light, I don't think many of us would feel very differently than Sebastian. To lose everything, to see the last of it lost right in front of you after you SWORE you'd protect it (which he did)...would you really not want the one responsible brought to justice? There's not exactly time for a trial. And what would the point be? Anders doesn't deny lying to you and using you and that he did it. Anders even agrees that he should die for it. His excuse is that it will let his name live on. Sebastian reflects the family side of things in the situation. Aveline is angry over it, saying the law can't be handled that way, but that's because she represents order. But Sebastian is there to show us familial pain. The loss of everything he's ever known. Merrill chose to walk away from hers. Sebastian chose to stay beside his.. to try to protect it... and he fails. Did any of us do Leandra's quest and go "But Quentin lost his wife before, that has to be painful.. hey, maybe he has a reason for killing these women. He could have been pushed into this. We should let him talk despite the fact he just butchered our mother." I can't speak for anyone else, but my reaction was "Uhm. No. DIE NOW." Sebastian is looking to you as the Champion of Kirkwall, the only representative that knows both him and the murderer and all of the situations that have led to this moment. You're the only thing he has left at the moment. We don't know if Sebastian really follows through if you let Anders go. I'm inclined to think he doesn't. He still has to get control of Starkhaven back, and by then, the turmoil of Kirkwall will have calmed down as much as it can (with mage and templar rebellions in Starkhaven as well) and he'll have other things to worry about. What he said in agony and anger of the moment shouldn't make people think he's ACTUALLY that vindictive or hypocritical. There's Anders who was hurting and METHODICALLY planned this out. And there's Sebastian who shouted at you in grief. Could he possibly choose to hunt Anders down later if he finds out he's STILL alive? Uhm. That's a distinct possibility. I wouldn't really blame him for it either. But that doesn't mean he'd really bring an army against Kirkwall.
We also don't know that Sebastian REALLY would have marched against Kirkwall. The man didn't hunt down the Flint company himself, he posted a bounty. He wanted to learn why the Harrimans had betrayed his family before he took action. But cut the guy a break. He wasn't there when his family died. He heard about it, but he probably hadn't even seen them in quite some time. His basically adopted mother and the place where he spends most of his time - it IS his home base after all- were JUST DESTROYED IN FRONT OF HIM. If you ask others what they think, he flat out asks you if you'd be waffling if he was in there. Basically, would you still be questioning it if he as someone who has fought beside you and you've gotten to know dying would make you react differently on what happened. If he's bitter and angry, it's only because he's probably trying to recover from collapsing to his knees. If he's reciting prayers it's because it's the only thing he has to grasp of the woman Anders just murdered.
Sebastian is the one who insists that the Divine can't seriously be considering a march against innocents, and he's horrified to hear that she could. I REALLY doubt he'd put together an army and bring it against Kirkwall. I think someone did the math from what we know of Sebastian and he's 28. He's 28, three years older than me, and he's already lost his two older brothers and his mother and his father... and he watched the place he's lived for all of his adult life just get blown up in front of him because a mage didn't want to allow there to be a compromise. Not because the mage even had something REALLY against who he just murdered. He just had to start a revolution.
In that light, I don't think many of us would feel very differently than Sebastian. To lose everything, to see the last of it lost right in front of you after you SWORE you'd protect it (which he did)...would you really not want the one responsible brought to justice? There's not exactly time for a trial. And what would the point be? Anders doesn't deny lying to you and using you and that he did it. Anders even agrees that he should die for it. His excuse is that it will let his name live on. Sebastian reflects the family side of things in the situation. Aveline is angry over it, saying the law can't be handled that way, but that's because she represents order. But Sebastian is there to show us familial pain. The loss of everything he's ever known. Merrill chose to walk away from hers. Sebastian chose to stay beside his.. to try to protect it... and he fails. Did any of us do Leandra's quest and go "But Quentin lost his wife before, that has to be painful.. hey, maybe he has a reason for killing these women. He could have been pushed into this. We should let him talk despite the fact he just butchered our mother." I can't speak for anyone else, but my reaction was "Uhm. No. DIE NOW." Sebastian is looking to you as the Champion of Kirkwall, the only representative that knows both him and the murderer and all of the situations that have led to this moment. You're the only thing he has left at the moment. We don't know if Sebastian really follows through if you let Anders go. I'm inclined to think he doesn't. He still has to get control of Starkhaven back, and by then, the turmoil of Kirkwall will have calmed down as much as it can (with mage and templar rebellions in Starkhaven as well) and he'll have other things to worry about. What he said in agony and anger of the moment shouldn't make people think he's ACTUALLY that vindictive or hypocritical. There's Anders who was hurting and METHODICALLY planned this out. And there's Sebastian who shouted at you in grief. Could he possibly choose to hunt Anders down later if he finds out he's STILL alive? Uhm. That's a distinct possibility. I wouldn't really blame him for it either. But that doesn't mean he'd really bring an army against Kirkwall.
Modifié par Oneiropolos, 16 mars 2011 - 07:36 .
#32
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 07:32
errant_knight
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Ninja Mage wrote...
It's still Anders. His emotions are just amplified now, for good or for bad
I think it's more than that. He's intrinsically different in some ways.
Modifié par errant_knight, 16 mars 2011 - 07:35 .
#33
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 07:37
Romudeth
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I wanted to kill Anders right there on the spot but unfortunately I was playing as a good guy so instead I sided with him. On my next playthrough I'm gonna cut his head off for pulling that crap.
#34
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 07:41
errant_knight
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I was playing a good guy, too. That's why I killed him.Romudeth wrote...
I wanted to kill Anders right there on the spot but unfortunately I was playing as a good guy so instead I sided with him. On my next playthrough I'm gonna cut his head off for pulling that crap.
Good post, Oneiropolos.
Modifié par errant_knight, 16 mars 2011 - 07:42 .
#35
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 07:41
Dracotamer
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I wanted to when he threatened me. I also wanted to kill Isabella.
#36
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 07:42
dgcatanisiri
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The thing with Sebastian as I took from it (granted, I barely interacted with him) is that he as a person is stuck, having a life he's comfortable with and would rather not go and have the life that fate seems to be pushing him towards. He's... Actually, he's a lot like Alistair was. He'd rather others take charge and make decisions rather than himself, he doesn't want the throne, and then he gets to stand there and watch as everything he believed in gets wiped out due to the actions of one man who thinks he knows better than anyone and is the only one who can do anything.
Except when Loghain betrayed the Wardens, we lost everything with Alistair, so we sympathized. For Hawke, Anders can easily be the man Hawke's in love with, best bro, or just a fellow mage who wants release from the bindings of the Circle. This time, Loghain's on our side.
But if you want my personal feelings? Yes, I thought Sebastian was being an ass in that moment, demanding that I kill the man that I love and saying that because I couldn't bring myself to do it, he would bring an army on Kirkwall in search of him. I could just picture the Grand Cleric shaking her head, saying 'You have learned nothing.' I do agree with the above, that by the time he could possibly take the crown and raise the army, he'll have greater things to worry about than one mage, but still, my gut reaction is still 'I stay my hand with Anders because I love him. I have no similar compunctions towards you.'
Except when Loghain betrayed the Wardens, we lost everything with Alistair, so we sympathized. For Hawke, Anders can easily be the man Hawke's in love with, best bro, or just a fellow mage who wants release from the bindings of the Circle. This time, Loghain's on our side.
But if you want my personal feelings? Yes, I thought Sebastian was being an ass in that moment, demanding that I kill the man that I love and saying that because I couldn't bring myself to do it, he would bring an army on Kirkwall in search of him. I could just picture the Grand Cleric shaking her head, saying 'You have learned nothing.' I do agree with the above, that by the time he could possibly take the crown and raise the army, he'll have greater things to worry about than one mage, but still, my gut reaction is still 'I stay my hand with Anders because I love him. I have no similar compunctions towards you.'
#37
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 07:46
Ninja Mage
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The grand cleric would let Anders live lol
Grand Cleric- I forgive Anders for blowing me up and for any atrocities he commits in the future. I am so complacent that nothing ever changes and I accept the horrors going on around me. I also fight for the people, but I am unwilling to make sacrafices to enact change.
Signed,
The Grand Cleric
Grand Cleric- I forgive Anders for blowing me up and for any atrocities he commits in the future. I am so complacent that nothing ever changes and I accept the horrors going on around me. I also fight for the people, but I am unwilling to make sacrafices to enact change.
Signed,
The Grand Cleric
Modifié par Ninja Mage, 16 mars 2011 - 07:51 .
#38
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 07:53
Oneiropolos
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Dgc, I don't quite agree that Sebastian just wants everyone else to decide things for him, he does seem to be keeping track of what's going on in Starkhaven and constantly listening to news when you bring him out. If pushed into Rivalry, he intends to return to Starkhaven, but he was put into the Chantry at 13 and told to take vows of priesthood. I think the comparison to Alistair IS sound and a good point. Neither of them EXPECTED to ever have to take the throne so the idea of it overwhelms them.
I also find the concept of "This time, Loghain's on our side" pretty profound and not something I'd considered. The idea that the one doing How-could-you moment is one of our allies and how that's divided people into how it should be dealt is intriguing indeed. Of course, that makes the writers rather crafty for putting in the "Would you be waffling if I was in there?" line from Sebastian. What WOULD we do if one of our companions was in the building destroyed by another one of our companions? I mean, let's say off the wall, Varric happened to be in there for....some reason. I don't know why he would be, but imagine he was. And it was fluke he was in there when Anders blew up the place. Would people still be going "But Anders started a movement!" in defense of Anders? Varric is generally loved by almost everyone. If HE had died from Anders, would we be waffling? It's an interesting question...and I hope the writers never do something like that to us!
I also find the concept of "This time, Loghain's on our side" pretty profound and not something I'd considered. The idea that the one doing How-could-you moment is one of our allies and how that's divided people into how it should be dealt is intriguing indeed. Of course, that makes the writers rather crafty for putting in the "Would you be waffling if I was in there?" line from Sebastian. What WOULD we do if one of our companions was in the building destroyed by another one of our companions? I mean, let's say off the wall, Varric happened to be in there for....some reason. I don't know why he would be, but imagine he was. And it was fluke he was in there when Anders blew up the place. Would people still be going "But Anders started a movement!" in defense of Anders? Varric is generally loved by almost everyone. If HE had died from Anders, would we be waffling? It's an interesting question...and I hope the writers never do something like that to us!
#39
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 07:54
Kerilus
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That's a bit harsh. She'd make sacrifices of herself if that'd do any good. She is unwilling to make sacrifices because she knew any "sacrifices" she made would be at great expense of the innocents.Ninja Mage wrote...
The grand cleric would let Anders live lol
Grand Cleric- I forgive Anders for blowing me up and any atrocities he commits in the future. I am so complacent, therefore, nothing ever changes and I accept the horrors going on around me. I fight for the people, but am unwilling to make sacrifices to enact change.
Signed,
The Grand Cleric
Modifié par Kerilus, 16 mars 2011 - 09:04 .
#40
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 08:20
Cadeym
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I hardly cared when I got to that part of the game, if the option had been available, I would have killed most of the major characters who had any power the first time I met them, or thrown them out of the city.
The Arishok didn't pay the dwarf, whom he hired to get rid of the outcasts, which left me with less coin than I had aimed for, it doesn't matter how you get the job done aslong as it gets done. I so wanted to tear off those horns of his, I bet they could have made me a few coins.
The chantry are all fanatic extremists, and just like the tevinter imperium they keep slaves. Meredith is an egotistical tyrant who is blinded by her own ego.
I could not care less that the grand cleric died, she never did do anything usefull, in a way shes much like the pope. I might have cared if she had openend a public debate about wether or not the chatry is right about anything.
The viscount was a nice guy though, too bad the chantry had to go and mess everything up as always, his child was however a tyrant (tevinter/qunari aspirant) in the making.
The Arishok didn't pay the dwarf, whom he hired to get rid of the outcasts, which left me with less coin than I had aimed for, it doesn't matter how you get the job done aslong as it gets done. I so wanted to tear off those horns of his, I bet they could have made me a few coins.
The chantry are all fanatic extremists, and just like the tevinter imperium they keep slaves. Meredith is an egotistical tyrant who is blinded by her own ego.
I could not care less that the grand cleric died, she never did do anything usefull, in a way shes much like the pope. I might have cared if she had openend a public debate about wether or not the chatry is right about anything.
The viscount was a nice guy though, too bad the chantry had to go and mess everything up as always, his child was however a tyrant (tevinter/qunari aspirant) in the making.
Modifié par Mouseraider, 16 mars 2011 - 08:25 .
#41
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 08:25
nranola
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The Arishok didn't hire Javaris to do anything. What Javaris did was out of his own initiative and he expected the Qunari to reward him because of it.Mouseraider wrote...
The Arishok didn't pay the dwarf, whom he hired to get rid of the outcastsp,
#42
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 08:27
Cadeym
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nranola wrote...
The Arishok didn't hire Javaris to do anything. What Javaris did was out of his own initiative and he expected the Qunari to reward him because of it.Mouseraider wrote...
The Arishok didn't pay the dwarf, whom he hired to get rid of the outcastsp,
Not quite, the Arishok said that they gave the dwarf an impossible task so that he could prove himself, and so he hired me which aparently rendered the deal invalid.
#43
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 08:38
nranola
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I'll need to play through the scene again to be certain (I get confused a lot when the Qunari start talking lol), but the way I understood that line was that Javaris appointed himself the task as a means to prove himself, and that the Arishok never agreed to a deal to begin with.Mouseraider wrote...
Not quite, the Arishok said that they gave the dwarf an impossible task so that he could prove himself, and so he hired me which aparently rendered the deal invalid.
But I digress. We're talking about Sebastian and the Chantry, aren't we? xD Sorry for going off-topic. I just thought I'd point that out.
#44
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 08:58
Corwyn
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Mouseraider wrote...
nranola wrote...
The Arishok didn't hire Javaris to do anything. What Javaris did was out of his own initiative and he expected the Qunari to reward him because of it.Mouseraider wrote...
The Arishok didn't pay the dwarf, whom he hired to get rid of the outcastsp,
Not quite, the Arishok said that they gave the dwarf an impossible task so that he could prove himself, and so he hired me which aparently rendered the deal invalid.
Not 100% on this but the I'm pretty sure the Arishok says the dwarf chose a task he thought would get him rewarded not that he gave him one. He's actually insulted that you did the Qunari's work for them.
#45
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 09:05
Corwyn
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I'm not trying to be rude but I don't understand the people who say yeah it wasn't that nice what Anders did but you had a romance going with him so you took his side. The man is a terrorist, he killed a large number of innocents and started a war. On top of that he also betrayed Hawke going behind his/her back and causing the very crises you were trying to avoid.
This of course assumes you were playing as the diplomatic "good" option I suppose if you were playing a Hawke who didn't care and was only looking to advance themselves then siding with Anders makes some sense.
This of course assumes you were playing as the diplomatic "good" option I suppose if you were playing a Hawke who didn't care and was only looking to advance themselves then siding with Anders makes some sense.
Modifié par Macgarnickle, 16 mars 2011 - 09:09 .
#46
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 09:09
atheelogos
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About Sebastian and removing him from the equation
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6501093
That should tell you how I feel about your topic
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6501093
That should tell you how I feel about your topic
#47
Posté 16 mars 2011 - 11:57
fett51
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Oneiropolos wrote...
(Edited to comment: I haven't chosen to let Anders live. If someone has, does Varric SAY Sebastian went on to bring an army against the innocents of Kirkwall? I mean, Varric is speaking from three years in the future of the story...he would know.)
You said it yourself: We don't know if he did or didn't. As you point out, he also may not march because of issues back in Starkhaven or an inability to take control. None of those would diminish that he was out to commit mass murder, even if he couldn't get it together. Regardless, what we do have is Sebastian saying the maker has turned his back on Kirkwall etc. that made it sound like he was in full blown religious fanatic mode. People don't generally back down from that, particularly not people with a past history of ruthless behavior. Prior to that point I had thought Elthina was getting through to him, but as soon as she died he started using her memory to justify more death. The Quentin example works here too - wanting his wife back is understandable, but it's no justification for killing innocent people.
Not that I find how Sebastian reacted particularly understandable. I cannot imagine a situation so screwed up that I would propose genocide.
#48
Posté 17 mars 2011 - 12:03
Vandicus
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I enjoyed killing Anders after what he did, so I would definitely not kill Sebastian. If Sebastian made good and what he said, I'd kill him. Sebastian has a history of saying something, but not really having the backbone to do it(I tried to get him to become prince of Starkhaven so he'd be a political ally for Hawke). I doubt that he'd follow through once he calmed down. Saying something to persuade someone is different from actually trying to do that something.
#49
Posté 17 mars 2011 - 12:08
Pileyourbodies
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I fully support Sebastian wanting to take out justice of his own and dish out some vengence on the abomination that was anders.
