82 réponses à ce sujet

[Nanashihito]

This is probably an inflammatory topic, but it's a serious question. Due to the nature of it (Both politics + religion = very bad idea) I'd appreciate it if people took it academically instead of emotionally. Origins left me thinking they were more akin to the militant view of Islam (absolute incontradictable religion), but Dragon Age 2 makes them seem closer to a form of Stalinist/Maoist communism.

I admit I'm definitely not an expert in either area, especially since I normally have little interest in political science, so insight into the nature (or varieties) of communism would be helpful.

The case for Communism:
-Assigned roles according to aptitude with the illusion of freedom.
-Gestalt view of society as an organism/individual by itself.
-Collective ownership
-Repression and vilification of opponents

The case for Militant Islam:
-Focus on conversion and subjugation of alien cultures.
-Promotes moral absolutism, has an intense focus on grabbing the moral high ground (Although communism tends to do this too, it tends to be more secular.)
-Existence of Dogma and clerical "interpretors".
-Promotes and calls for the killing of apostates (Not Dragon Age apostates, but people that leave the religion)
-Lack of a strong female presence. (Although this is probably just not present in-game since Bioware has politically-correct sensitivities)
-Refusal to assimilate within foreign cultures/submit to foreign law as opposed to dogma, especially when conflicts exist (As in Sharia).

The entire Qunari camping out in Kirkwall thing is somewhat reminiscent of the current situation in parts of Europe where there exists a level of public unrest and resentment against intrasigent communities (as observed in Germany and the United Kingdom).

This being said, I'd love it if Bioware could give us a Tal'Vashoth companion. Preferably female.

[Foolsfolly]

I'm not an expert either but I totally saw them as Communists instead of the Islamic Borg quote that floated around for....what two years now...less? Whatever.

They feel more Communist to me.

[Meltemph]

I would put them as a form of meritocracy realized in philosophical form, much like Confucianism.

[Kerilus]

That's what I like about Qunari. Their ideology is so very...selfless, that it does not shadow much of human nature. And that makes the Qunari an interesting race, one that is fundamentally different from human.

[HarlequinKing]

If you're looking for real-world comparisons, I personally found the qunari inspired by the samurai culture of feudal Japan. There are (just in my opinion) many similarities between the Qun and Buddhism as practiced by the samurai. This is probably hard to imagine as most people think of Buddhists in the hip 1960's "Stuff White People Like" variety. But the Japanese very well employed warrior monks and persecuted religions that threatened them, such as Christianity. Think of the game Shogun: Total War.

Modifié par HarlequinKing, 16 mars 2011 - 07:17 .

[Nanashihito]

Meltemph wrote...

I would put them as a form of meritocracy realized in philosophical form, much like Confucianism.

Well, if you're talking about meritocracies, they're definitely not Singapore. I wonder if there's a QAT (Qunari Aptitude Test) or something.

Also to elaborate, I believe Tal'Vashoth would be the only interesting option for a further companion since personality within the Qun is homogeneous. As long as people personify the Qun, they will be identical personality clones of Sten (and we've already had that), which doesn't leave much room for character development.

[Nanashihito]

HarlequinKing wrote...

If you're looking for real-world comparisons, I personally found the qunari inspired by the samurai culture of feudal Japan. There are (just in my opinion) many similarities between the Qun and Buddhism as practiced by the samurai. This is probably hard to imagine as most people think of Buddhists in the hip 1960's "Stuff White People Like" variety. But the Japanese very well employed warrior monks and persecuted religions that threatened them, such as Christianity. Think of the game Shogun: Total War.

I kind of disagree with this because feudal Japan was based on feuding lords and internecine plotting, while there seems to be no room for this within the Qunari culture. There's no uniting aspect within all the lords except perhaps obedience towards the Emperor of Japan (and even then there were plots to overthrow that).

Feudal Japan did not have strictures against immorality and most importantly it had classism and castes within the system, which the Qunari adamantly do not.

[CitizenSnips]

Meltempth is correct, their culture is a meritocracy based on classic eastern style philosophy- community over the individual. We in the west have a hard time understanding societies like these but in Japan or China this form of society would not be so difficult to understand.

Also that list under Militant Islam can be jut as easily ascribed to much of the history of the Catholic Church. Islam is as western a religion as Judaism or Christianity.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Islam, perhaps, given their historical analog with the Turks, the various Caliphates, etc. I would hesitate taking it further than that: they are perhaps inspired by Islamic cultures, but they do not represent them. Orlais is inspired by France, Ferelden by England, and Tevinter by the Eastern Roman Empire but they are significantly different too. Inspiration should be contrasted with representation or analogy (this is a long winded way of saying "akin" is not the appropriate word to use).

Communism? Resemblance is skin deep. The Qun is philosophical; it is a totality. It is not an ideology. It is not espoused by intellectuals and revolutionaries, and it is not a thing that can be debated. They do not write critiques of other social systems, they do not convert through persuasion and reason. Ideology is new and alien. Philosophy is old.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 16 mars 2011 - 07:29 .

[Meltemph]

I don't know, I kinda liked the Arishok's personality, and thought he differed from Sten of the Beresaad.
I would have to think that a Beresaad(hornless) would have a bit of a different look on things compared to someone not in-charge of infiltrating groups of non Quanri.

Where as perheps a Sten of something else, or even a Lead or whatever they are called that is in-charge of the Seerabas(Qunari Mages) or however you spell it.

[Foolsfolly]

I thought Beresaad just meant vanguard and not horn-less.

And the Arishok's personality is different because he leads not follows, that's his role in the Qun. So maybe a higher up Qunari companion? ....hard to justify that though, isn't it.

[Meltemph]

I thought Beresaad just meant vanguard and not horn-less.

Well Sten seems to be the position of authority and the latter name seems to be what he is the authority of.

Mary Kirby, waaaaay back said, Berasaad meant the military division one would be in and I'm pretty sure Sten is the position of authority for military divisions and the latter describes the type of division. So it wouldn't make sense for Sten to represent what you did, in terms of your job as a Sten.

[Freestorm Skinn]

Nanashihito wrote...

HarlequinKing wrote...

If you're looking for real-world comparisons, I personally found the qunari inspired by the samurai culture of feudal Japan. There are (just in my opinion) many similarities between the Qun and Buddhism as practiced by the samurai. This is probably hard to imagine as most people think of Buddhists in the hip 1960's "Stuff White People Like" variety. But the Japanese very well employed warrior monks and persecuted religions that threatened them, such as Christianity. Think of the game Shogun: Total War.

I kind of disagree with this because feudal Japan was based on feuding lords and internecine plotting, while there seems to be no room for this within the Qunari culture. There's no uniting aspect within all the lords except perhaps obedience towards the Emperor of Japan (and even then there were plots to overthrow that).

Feudal Japan did not have strictures against immorality and most importantly it had classism and castes within the system, which the Qunari adamantly do not.

The Qunaris' code isn't so much reminiscent of feudal Japan in the hierarchical sense or Buddhism so much as the Bushido martial code, which advocates honour in war, honourable deaths in battle and even seeing their weapons as a part of their souls and the cancellation of the Self into a large collective of warriors acting with one mind.  What we see in Dragon Age 2 is how inflexible and fascistic the code is.

Modifié par Freestorm Skinn, 16 mars 2011 - 08:11 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Fascistic? How so? Again, I strenuously object to the application of 19th and 20th century ideologies to a philosophical stance.

[mesmerizedish]

I think they're only like the Muslims of the first millennium AD in how they relate to other cultures. Internally, they're much more like totalitarian communists.

[Statulos]

None. Qunari are basicaly an adaptation of Plato´s ideal republic with less bias towards the philosopers.

My arguments for this are:

-Triangular society: producers, warriors, administers.
-Individual as irrelevant compared to the rest of society.
-Strong commitment to task no matter what that task is.
-Essentialism in the assingment of tasks.
-Consideration of society as a reflection of a metaphisical truth (ideas for Plato, Qun for Qunary).
-Timelessness and unquestionability of the social order.

[Legbiter]

Neither, Qunari are militant Platonists.

[Nanashihito]

Oh, it's definitely derivative of Plato's republic, but Plato was always sketchy with regard to the actual implementation of his concepts. I was more interested in its similarity to actual/pragmatic implementations when considering a "source" for Qunari culture.

The thread stems from a debate between me and a friend of mine about whether the situation in Kirkwall and its similarity to modern intrasigency issues was intentional. One argument raised was that the situation in Kirkwall was also slightly reminiscent of Communist parties in some modern nations (although I personally believe it's completely different because Communists in general aren't a visible minority)

Edit: The biggest problem being that Plato's concept of an ideal republic is dangerously easy to subvert, whereas the Qun as a device is not. Plato's republic is more of a concept while Communism is a practical version of implementation of that concept, was what I've been led to understand. Since it actually exists, we actually have (human) examples of how it relates to or interacts with other cultures.

Modifié par Nanashihito, 16 mars 2011 - 09:33 .

[lost lupus]

very much socialist/communist/platonists overtones

it combines all 3, at its basic it can fit into any Anti-Human ideal
that is to where an indiviual is irrelevent indeed a "person" in the Qun is merely a resource your sole vaule is what you can contribute

[AlexXIV]

Well I wouldn't label them communists, but they do certainly have things in common with communism.

As far as I know they don't worship any gods, just follow the qun. Their roles are predefined, probably since birth or young age. And they have a real strict code of law and honor. It reminds me a bit of the vulcanians from star trek and jaffar from stargate. They probably have quite a wild side by nature so they invented a system that keeps them in check and brings order in their life. The Qun. Most of the Qun's rules seem more like a punishment or attempt to chain them, or a wild side of them, and a sort of negative view of the world.

[OldMan91]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Fascistic? How so? Again, I strenuously object to the application of 19th and 20th century ideologies to a philosophical stance.

The most intelligent post in this thread. Thank you.

[cteve]

Communism in its theory supports freedom of conscience and denies class system.

I think it's closer to confucianism mixed with some Plato's concepts. IMHO Qun is obvious allusion to K'ung-tzu (Confucius).

Modifié par cteve, 16 mars 2011 - 10:14 .

[Nanashihito]

I must apologise, I think I missed my original motive. I want to thank everyone for their impressions of Qunari society - There were far more perspectives than I had initially thought there would be. It's given me quite a lot to talk and think about!

The thread title is unfortunate because it presents a false dilemma, but I don't regret it as it probably makes as much an impact as "What real-world examples of society did the Qunari remind you of in Dragon Age 2?"

This being said, if the Islamic aspect I perceive is imaginary and unintentional (I must confess that the Qunari Leader that reminded me a bit of Muhammad), it was possibly an unfortunate decision to give Elvish converts those cowls that made them look as if they were wearing headscarves.

P.S,: What were Plato's views on moral relativism? I'm definitely not a Philosophy major, so I wouldn't know. That aspect relative to the Qunari doesn't seem to fit.

[TobiTobsen]

Nanashihito wrote...


-Lack of a strong female presence. (Although this is probably just not present in-game since Bioware has politically-correct sensitivities)

That's not the case in my opinion. We just don't see any females becasue they're not present in the qunari military. The whole Tamassran/Clerical branch of the Qun is run by woman. The Ariqun, one member of the Triumvirate and leader of all priests is a female.

[Basher of Glory]

IMO there is much of stoicism in that, what DA:O-Sten and now DA II-Arishok said.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism)

OTOH much of their behaviour reminds me on Maoism, too.
Throw in a bit of chivalry and chauvinism (both: nationalism and sexism) and a bit of Nietzsche's "Ubermensch". Mix it with the determinedness of islamistic fanatics and add some superstition.

When I "met" Sten in DA:O the first time, I had an impression of "Mr. Spock", because he seemed to be excessively rational and logical, void of all emotional feelings.

Now, the Arishok has given me something to think about. Just a personal feeling, but right now he represents for me the typical AD&D "neutral chaotic".