79 réponses à ce sujet

[nickan1022]

Namely I'm having an issue with Merrill's Stone's Throw. I tried this command:
3. Self: Health<10 : Jump to Tactic 12
11. Self: Any : jump to tactic 17
12. Ally: Nearest : Stone's Throw

Now, to my mind, that means that 12 should NEVER get hit unless the condition of 3 is fulfilled, because it should automatically skip the back of the list if it reaches 11, right? Instead, she uses it ASAP, as soon as combat is started and the ability is available, even with full HP, she will use Stone's Throw as often as possible. I've tried troubleshooting it. I replaced Stone's Throw with Tempest, and it has the same effect, she'll cast Tempest at every opportunity. I tried removing the "3" condition entirely, but it still somehow pops up in here queue, even though it should be skipped entirely without its refferer. I also tried messing with the Ally options and the Health conditions, they all gave the same response. I'm not sure what the issue is.

Okay, the jump isn't really necessary though, is it?  Why not:

3. Self: Health: < 10% —> Use current condition for next tactic
4. Ally: Nearest —> Use ability: Stone's Throw

If this still has her hopping around, i would say the health condition is borked.  If you have your heart set on the jumps at 3 and 11, please post your whole Merrill script so we can see if there are any other things causing the behavior and troubleshoot with you more effectively.

[nickan1022]

Ugh, double post.  Thx bioware forums.

Modifié par nickan1022, 07 avril 2011 - 04:06 .

[Rrend]

Ernie4711 wrote...

I think a found a flaw in my previous post. I think now that the order of the conditions matter.
The reason is the hidden target selection which applies in every rule.

As described in the DAO wiki under http://dragonage.wik...ctics_Mechanics
we learn that there are conditions which select a new target and some which don't. While DA2 has added some conditions compared to DAO I assume most of the target selection logic of DAO apply also here while the new one's need documentation

:quote

# The enemy target is set using tactics from the Enemy condition tiers that result in an attempted attack. The following tactic conditions should be used to set or change a target.

* Enemy:Status
* Enemy:Lowest/Highest Health
* Enemy:Clustered
* Enemy:Nearest Visible
* Enemy:Nearest Visible class
* Enemy:Attacking Party Member
* Enemy:Target of Party Member
* Enemy:Rank

# The following will not change the enemy target but are used for conditions on the existing target. These conditions will be false if there is no target for the character

* Enemy:Any
* Enemy:Health
* Enemy:Has Armour Type
* Enemy:Target At Range
* Enemy:Target Using Attack Type

:end quote

Suppose we have the following tactics

01: Enemy:Health < 50% -> use condition for next target
02: Enemy:Rank is Elite -> Use Spirit Bolt

In this case the current target (if any) will be hit with Spirit Bolt if it's health is below 50% and it's rank is Elite.
If there is no current target nothing will happen. Not want we want in most cases.

Suppose we change the order of those rules

01: Enemy:Rank is Elite -> use condition for next target
02: Enemy:Health < 50% -> Use Spirit Bolt

In this case the game will look for any Elite and will then check if it's health is below 50% and than hit it with Spirit Bolt.
If the first Elite found has more than 50% health I expect the game to look for another Elite which has below 50% Health.
Only if no Elite can be found which has below 50% health the rule won't match. This is more like it.

So if you want a rule which ensures that the Elites go down as fast as possible you want to focus damage on one elite at a time

01: Enemy:Rank is Elite -> use condition for next target
02: Enemy:Lowest Health -> Use Spirit Bolt
03: Enemy:Rank is Elite -> use condition for next target
04: Enemy:Lowest Health -> Use Winter's Grasp
...

It would be nice if this could be simplified by saving lines but I don't think this works atm because the "jump to" action doesn't seem to save the target.

01: Enemy:Rank is Elite -> use condition for next target
02: Enemy:Lowest Health -> jump to 10
...
10: Enemy:Any -> Use Spirit Bolt
11: Enemy:Any -> Use Winter's Grasp

I really appreciate this thread and this post in particular.  However, for the life of me, I'm really struggling with the point in the logic where the target is selected.  This helps, but still fuzzy for me.  I'm just dense I guess.  This is the main reason I'm not relying upon complex tactics on my nightmare play through.  I'd rather pause every 5 seconds than replay every fight due to the painful lack of clarity in the manual on how this tactics mechanic really works.

I love the suggestion to avoid drinking pots after the last enemy is dead.  I scream everytime that happens because those things are NOT CHEAP!!!!

[SirValeq]

So if there are multiple elites and I only want to do something to the one that Hawke is targeting, or do nothing if he's targeting a normal/critter/nothing, how would I do that? Is that even possible, considering how both conditions force a target change? (PC version)

Modifié par iLikeBWgames, 07 avril 2011 - 04:27 .

[nickan1022]

iLikeBWgames wrote...

So if there are multiple elites and I only want to do something to the one that Hawke is targeting, or do nothing if he's targeting a normal/critter/nothing, how would I do that? Is that even possible, considering how both conditions force a target change? (PC version)

I don't know why you're want your party member to do nothing vs. a normal or critter.  At least a basic attack would seem appropriate.  Given that, here's a script that attacks Hawke's target and does extra stuff if that target is elite:

...
12.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use current condition for next tactic
13.    Enemy: Rank: Normal or lower —> Attack
14.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Petrify
15.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Crushing Prison
16.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Horror
17.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Hex of Torment
18.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Misdirection Hex
19.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Winter's Grasp
20.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Attack

This is an extract from my Merrill script, as an example.

If the enemy is normal, the tactics never advance past 13.  If it's elite or higher, it gets punished.

I'm not convinced that the "Rank" condition is a target setter.  I haven't seen the AI behave in a way that supports that conclusion in DA2.

Modifié par nickan1022, 07 avril 2011 - 04:55 .

[SirValeq]

nickan1022 wrote...

If the enemy is normal, the tactics never advance past 13.  If it's elite or higher, it gets punished.

Thanks!

nickan1022 wrote...

I'm not convinced that the "Rank" condition is a target setter.  I haven't seen the AI behave in a way that supports that conclusion in DA2.

What platform are you playing on? From what I've seen in the forums, it seems to make a difference.

[Siham]

nickan1022 wrote...

iLikeBWgames wrote...

So if there are multiple elites and I only want to do something to the one that Hawke is targeting, or do nothing if he's targeting a normal/critter/nothing, how would I do that? Is that even possible, considering how both conditions force a target change? (PC version)

I don't know why you're want your party member to do nothing vs. a normal or critter.  At least a basic attack would seem appropriate.  Given that, here's a script that attacks Hawke's target and does extra stuff if that target is elite:

...
12.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use current condition for next tactic
13.    Enemy: Rank: Normal or lower —> Attack
14.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Petrify
15.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Crushing Prison
16.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Horror
17.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Hex of Torment
18.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Misdirection Hex
19.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Winter's Grasp
20.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Attack

This is an extract from my Merrill script, as an example.

If the enemy is normal, the tactics never advance past 13.  If it's elite or higher, it gets punished.

I'm not convinced that the "Rank" condition is a target setter.  I haven't seen the AI behave in a way that supports that conclusion in DA2.

Very nice use of the "Use current condition for next tactic", thanks for sharing!

I was about to post the exact same question as the OP when i saw this thread... So, after reading all the replies, i suppose it is confirmed that the tactic following a  "Use current condition for next tactic" will never be used if the first condition is not positive, am i right?

[nickan1022]

iLikeBWgames wrote...

What platform are you playing on? From what I've seen in the forums, it seems to make a difference.

Xbox 360, and this part of the script works fine.  The top half of my script (not listed in this thread) doesn't work, but that's because I believe "Nearest visible class: Rogue" doesn't work on my platform.  I've detailed the rogue problem in a separate thread.

[SirValeq]

nickan1022 wrote...
...
12.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use current condition for next tactic
13.    Enemy: Rank: Normal or lower —> Attack
14.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Petrify
15.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Crushing Prison
16.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Horror
17.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Hex of Torment
18.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Misdirection Hex
19.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Winter's Grasp
20.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Attack

OK, I've just tested this and it doesn't work for me (on PC). It doesn't matter what is Hawke's target, Merrill just autoattacks all the normals/critters in sight and doesn't cast any spell on anybody.
WTB a patch. Fast.

Conclusion: the Enemy:Rank condition changes the current target on PC.

Modifié par iLikeBWgames, 07 avril 2011 - 05:41 .

[nickan1022]

Siham wrote...
Very nice use of the "Use current condition for next tactic", thanks for sharing!

I was about to post the exact same question as the OP when i saw this thread... So, after reading all the replies, i suppose it is confirmed that the tactic following a  "Use current condition for next tactic" will never be used if the first condition is not positive, am i right?

You're welcome!

Yes, as far as I can tell, the second part of a compound statement is never evaluated if the first part fails. 

[Siham]

iLikeBWgames wrote...

nickan1022 wrote...
...
12.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use current condition for next tactic
13.    Enemy: Rank: Normal or lower —> Attack
14.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Petrify
15.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Crushing Prison
16.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Horror
17.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Hex of Torment
18.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Misdirection Hex
19.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Winter's Grasp
20.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Attack

OK, I've just tested this and it doesn't work for me (on PC). It doesn't matter what is Hawke's target, Merrill just autoattacks all the normals/critters in sight and doesn't cast any spell on anybody.
WTB a patch. Fast.

Ouch, i'm on PC too. So, if you're right, the OP was right too and the "Use current condition for next tactic" is pointless, at least on PC and before an hypothetical patch.

[nickan1022]

iLikeBWgames wrote...

nickan1022 wrote...
...
12.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use current condition for next tactic
13.    Enemy: Rank: Normal or lower —> Attack
14.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Petrify
15.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Crushing Prison
16.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Horror
17.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Hex of Torment
18.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Misdirection Hex
19.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Use ability: Winter's Grasp
20.    Enemy: Target of party member: Hawke —> Attack

OK, I've just tested this and it doesn't work for me (on PC). It doesn't matter what is Hawke's target, Merrill just autoattacks all the normals/critters in sight and doesn't cast any spell on anybody.
WTB a patch. Fast.

Yeah, it could be that for your platform "Rank" is a selector, in which case, she would ignore Hawke's target and find normals and critters.  This could be true for my platform, too, and I'm just not watching her behaviour enough.  I'll play with it tonight.

If that's the case, there's no way to create a compound statement, because each criterion (Hawke's target, Rank) changes the target.

BIOWARE really, really needs to document tactics for us.  Please tell us which statements are target changers, and which ones are current target evaluators!

Modifié par nickan1022, 07 avril 2011 - 05:51 .

[SuicidalBaby]

When dealing with enemies next condition tactics are totally dependant on your ability to set the perfect instance where both conditions are met.

[Siham]

Good news, according to the patch 1.02 changelog now "the Enemy:Rank tactic no longer selects a new target and is now working on the PC version in the same way as on consoles"

Modifié par Siham, 14 avril 2011 - 12:51 .

[Siham]

I guess now with this patch we can use nickan1022 tactics

[SuicidalBaby]

not working on ps3 the way he describes.

[neeeiiil]

Skyorange wrote...

So it doesn't seem like this question was resolved. I'm having a similar problem where for instance

1. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher > Use current condition for next tactic
2. Enemy: Target of Hawke > Horror

Rule two is being applied despite rule 1 not being in effect. Essentially my Horror is being burnt on ANYTHING Hawke is targeting whether its elite or not.

If this was resolved could someone tell me what I should fix?

Those tactics cast horror on Hawkes target whenever an elite is on the field.

So if hawke is targetting an archer when an assassin is on the field the archer gets the horror not the assassin..

what you want is for the elite to get the horror only when  hawke is targetting the elite.

But i do not know how to do that.

 

[SuicidalBaby]

tactics concerning enemies require specific situations in which to fire correctly when "use current condition for next tactic" is employed.  These situations require the player to control when conditions are created for the tactic to fire as intended. 

you must assume that every enemy: tactic has an "any" before the condition
such as:
enemy: (any) STAGGER: use condition for next tactic
enemy: (any) elite or higher: Crushing Prison

I cover aspects of this and other tactics in my Advanced Tactics thread. link can be found in my signature.

edit:
Quite frankly, a lot of information in this thread is dead wrong or at least skewed by false assumptions. Many of the tactics just do not work as people hoped they would.  Concluding that this thread needs to be in the context of what not to do.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 14 avril 2011 - 06:51 .

[Siham]

neeeiiil wrote...

Skyorange wrote...

So it doesn't seem like this question was resolved. I'm having a similar problem where for instance

1. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher > Use current condition for next tactic
2. Enemy: Target of Hawke > Horror

Rule two is being applied despite rule 1 not being in effect. Essentially my Horror is being burnt on ANYTHING Hawke is targeting whether its elite or not.

If this was resolved could someone tell me what I should fix?

Those tactics cast horror on Hawkes target whenever an elite is on the field.

So if hawke is targetting an archer when an assassin is on the field the archer gets the horror not the assassin..

what you want is for the elite to get the horror only when  hawke is targetting the elite.

But i do not know how to do that.

I think you just have to switch the tactics : 

1. Enemy: Target of Hawke > Use current condition for next tactic
2. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher  > Horror

That should work with patch 1.02, since according to the changelog "the Enemy:Rank tactic no longer selects a new target".

Modifié par Siham, 14 avril 2011 - 07:40 .

[nickan1022]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

not working on ps3 the way he describes.

To be fair, the patch hasn't come out yet for consoles.  If the patch works as described on the PC side, then this script will work reasonably well for the PS3 and xbox.

EDIT

Apparently I accidentally lied.  It looks like the xbox patch is out.  I don't see any mention in the patch notes about fixing the Rank tactic though, so I guess we'll need to test it.

Modifié par nickan1022, 14 avril 2011 - 07:54 .

[Siham]

In fact the rank tactic fix is mentioned here social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/300/index/7048410/1#7048447, along with some other fixes not mentioned in the original changelog.

[nickan1022]

Right, that's the PC thread. We'll need to see if it translates to the Xbox as well. I asked Luke about it, and he says he doesn't think so because it wasn't in the notes. But it might be in the "other minor fixes" category. The only way to tell now is for someone to try it. For sure I'll be trying it when I get home.

[rvayda141]

I have the tactic setup on varric for

self:being attacked by a melee attack -> use current condition for next tactic
Hawk: any -> use back-to-back

this doesnt seem to be working, when enemies ninja down behind Varric and start beating on him, he doesnt execute the tactic. Do i have it set up wrong? does that setup work for anybody else?

[SuicidalBaby]

use enemy: attacking Varric

when its from the self its post attack. " enemy: " makes a targeting check and fires before he can be interrupted.

[nickan1022]

I can confirm that, for the xbox version 1.01, "Enemy: Rank" is still selecting a new target in a compound condition and therefore fairly useless as such.

Modifié par nickan1022, 18 avril 2011 - 05:38 .