79 réponses à ce sujet

[Siham]

nickan1022 wrote...

I can confirm that "Enemy: Rank" is still selecting a new target in a compound condition and therefore fairly useless as such.

I suppose you're talking about Xbox version?

[nickan1022]

Siham wrote...

nickan1022 wrote...

I can confirm that "Enemy: Rank" is still selecting a new target in a compound condition and therefore fairly useless as such.

I suppose you're talking about Xbox version?

Yes, I should have clarified.  I'll make an edit in my post.

[Jack-Nader]

I could never get "use current condition for next tactic" to work. Shame as it would make hexes a joy

[SuicidalBaby]

it is not useless, as I have attempted to convey:

you need to control the way in which stagger is applied. If Avaline Shield bashes an elite who happens to be clustered with lower ranked enemies, that condition will apply itself as intended, If you allow the stagger of any target it will apply the condition to an elite regardless of status.

It is up to you to create the situation, if you wish it to work as you intend.

[nickan1022]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

it is not useless, as I have attempted to convey:

you need to control the way in which stagger is applied. If Avaline Shield bashes an elite who happens to be clustered with lower ranked enemies, that condition will apply itself as intended, If you allow the stagger of any target it will apply the condition to an elite regardless of status.

It is up to you to create the situation, if you wish it to work as you intend.

If "Enemy: Status" and "Enemy: Rank" both change the current target being evaluated, there's no point in making them into a compound statement.  The same is true with "Enemy: Nearest visible class" and "Enemy: Rank".

This doesn't make the "Use current condition for next tactic" utterly useless, but it degrades its value in a significant way.  This is a failure of the tactics system to clearly distinguish between the behaviors of new target selection and current target evaluation.

If they were going to tweak this in a meaningful way, my suggestion to Bioware design team would be to create an extra selector in all of the Enemy tactics set, as such:

Currently:  Enemy —> Status —> STAGGERED
Proposed: Enemy —> [Select new target | Evaluate current target] —> Status —> STAGGERED

Maybe one of our lurking devs can take it back to get kicked around a bit.

[SuicidalBaby]

If "Enemy: Status" and "Enemy: Rank" both change the current target being evaluated, there's no point in making them into a compound statement.

That statement could not be more false. There is absolutely a point to add those conditions together. As I just explained, as clearly as I possibly could, how those conditions require the player to provide the environment so they can function as "the player" intended. This is not some random singular event, but a constant occurrence.

Saying theres "no point" should be follow by examples why not to ever do it. You assume the tactics even considers the target of the last event at all. Its a search engine, youre simply narrowing the search during specific instances.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 18 avril 2011 - 08:43 .

[Jack-Nader]

I tried this..

Enemy : target rank boss or higher : use current condition for next tactic
Enemy : target of party member : hawke : use hex of torment.

Goal is to get hex of torment cast only on bosses that hawke is attacking. I couldn't get it to function. It would simply cast hex of torment on everything that hawke was attacking.

[Siham]

That's because you have to switch the tactics, assuming you are on PC where enemy:rank no longer selects a target since patch 1.02.

Enemy : target of party member : hawke : use current condition for next tactic
Enemy : target rank boss or higher : use hex of torment

[SirValeq]

Although it seemed fixed the first time I tried it after the patch (PC), I'm still having some issues with Enemy:Rank. It seems that it's working perfectly as long as the compound "Target of Hawke + Rank" statement is near the top of the tactics list. However, as I move towards the bottom (tactic slot 9 or higher), use more partymembers and advanced tactics, it starts giving mixed results. It'll need some further testing.

[nickan1022]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

If "Enemy: Status" and "Enemy: Rank" both change the current target being evaluated, there's no point in making them into a compound statement.

That statement could not be more false. There is absolutely a point to add those conditions together. As I just explained, as clearly as I possibly could, how those conditions require the player to provide the environment so they can function as "the player" intended. This is not some random singular event, but a constant occurrence.

Saying theres "no point" should be follow by examples why not to ever do it. You assume the tactics even considers the target of the last event at all. Its a search engine, youre simply narrowing the search during specific instances.

Okay, let's look at it.

1: Enemy: Clustered: Group of 2 or more —> Use current condition for next tactic
2: Enemy: Rank: Elite or higher —> Use ability: *michaelbaysplosions* (whatever)

Tactic 1 evaluates as true if any enemies are clustered anywhere.  Then Tactic 2 is evaluated and the target is changed to an Elite, if one exists, and the ability is executed on that target.  In this example, there's very little tactical value in determining whether or not any enemies are clustered anywhere on the battlefield before zapping some other elite somewhere else.  Worse, if no enemies are clustered anywhere, no elite gets zapped while solo.  The tactic set never guarantees that clustered enemies and elites will be near each other.  Your results would be better to just have tactic 2 by itself.

The same is true with "Enemy: Status".  Status is a target changer.  So again, checking for the existence of clusters and then blasting an staggered target doesn't guarantee that the cluster and the status are in the same place.

Finally, we can look at Status and Rank.  Both are target changers.  Let's say you check rank first.  Is there an Elite present?  Yes?  Next tactic.  Is there a STAGGERED target?  Blast it.  Was the staggered target an elite?  Not necessarily.  There's no linkage between the targets in the compound condition.  You'll simply blast whichever target is staggered.


None of these scenarios is significantly enhanced by compound criteria.  If anything, they function more rationally without the first part, and that was my point.

EDIT:  It's worth mentioning again, (as has been above) that Enemy: Rank has been changed in the PC version, apparently.  It's not longer a target changer, but rather a current target evaluator.

Modifié par nickan1022, 18 avril 2011 - 09:13 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Ignoring logic isnt helping your arguement.
Only when used properly, will combining conditions be effective. <----THIS IS MY POINT.

Using them like a retard will result in retarded effects. Work with-in the system provided, not the one you wished out of thin air.

pre-patch/consoles:
enemy: staggered: use as condition for next tactic
enemy: elite or higher: Crushing Prison

2h warrior w/ upgraded Whirlwinds staggering 5 enemies, which consist of 4 normal targets and 1 elite. Without the additional condition, any random target will have Crushing Prison cast on it after being staggered. With just the rank, the elite has Crushing Prison cast on it before stagger is even applied. The conditions are working together properly when the environment is set up by the player. There is a logical point to using the structure when applied logically.

Using poorly constructed tactics is not an rational arguement for there being "no point" to using the tools provided.

[nickan1022]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Ignoring logic isnt helping your arguement.
Only when used properly, will combining conditions be effective. <----THIS IS MY POINT.

Using them like a retard will result in retarded effects. Work with-in the system provided, not the one you wished out of thin air.

pre-patch/consoles:
enemy: staggered: use as condition for next tactic
enemy: elite or higher: Crushing Prison

2h warrior w/ upgraded Whirlwinds staggering 5 enemies, which consist of 4 normal targets and 1 elite. Without the additional condition, any random target will have Crushing Prison cast on it after being staggered. With just the rank, the elite has Crushing Prison cast on it before stagger is even applied. The conditions are working together properly when the environment is set up by the player. There is a logical point to using the structure when applied logically.

Using poorly constructed tactics is not an rational arguement for there being "no point" to using the tools provided.

I understand your point.  I tried to use examples that you provided rather than ones I made up.  Let's use your current example for our dialogue.  Both Enemy: Status and Enemy: Rank are target selectors, not current target evaluators.  In your example, the AI will check to see if ANY enemy is staggered.  If yes, then it will check to see if ANY elite exists (because targets are changed between tactics) and cast crushing prison on it if so.  This means that, regardless of whether the elite is staggered, it will get Crushing Prison.  The targets between the two conditions are NOT shared.  Make sense?

Okay, let's say that tomorrow they fix Enemy: Rank to be a current target evaluator instead of a target changer.  In your current example, you still have your original problem, which is that the first tactic looks for ANY staggered target, and then the second condition checks to see if that same current target is elite before it casts Crushing Prison.  If it's not, nothing is cast, leaving the all the staggered normals and staggered elite just sitting there.

[SuicidalBaby]

I have never suggested the use of clustered involved with rank because they do not work together.

I understand your point.  I tried to use examples that you provided rather than ones I made up.  Let's use your current example for our dialogue.  Both Enemy: Status and Enemy: Rank are target selectors, not current target evaluators.  In your example, the AI will check to see if ANY enemy is staggered.  If yes, then it will check to see if ANY elite exists (because targets are changed between tactics) and cast crushing prison on it if so.  This means that, regardless of whether the elite is staggered, it will get Crushing Prison.  The targets between the two conditions are NOT shared.  Make sense?

This is the basic understanding of any tactics discussion.


Youre assuming again. Talk about the now and how it works now. Throwing context out the window while assuming a lack of constant nanosecond speed checks across all staggers from the first condition is flawed.

Im done talking to imagination land man. Apply what is and not what if.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 18 avril 2011 - 10:58 .

[nickan1022]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

I have never suggested the use of clusted involved with rank because they do not work together.

I understand your point.  I tried to use examples that you provided rather than ones I made up.  Let's use your current example for our dialogue.  Both Enemy: Status and Enemy: Rank are target selectors, not current target evaluators.  In your example, the AI will check to see if ANY enemy is staggered.  If yes, then it will check to see if ANY elite exists (because targets are changed between tactics) and cast crushing prison on it if so.  This means that, regardless of whether the elite is staggered, it will get Crushing Prison.  The targets between the two conditions are NOT shared.  Make sense?

This is the basic understanding of any tactics discussion.


Youre assuming again. Talk about the now and how it works now. Throwing context out the window while assuming a lack of constant nanosecond speed checks across all staggers from the first condition is flawed.

Im done talking to imagination land man. Apply what is and not what if.

What a weirdly aggressive response.  Alright, well, I leave it in your hands.  Respond if you're interested in the discussion.  Here's my reply...

You have asserted in your example that your intent is to cast Crushing Prison on a staggered elite.  What I am telling you is that there is no way to reliably select a staggered elite from a mixture of either staggered or elite hostiles.  Here are the scenarios, given your example of 5 enemies (4 normals, 1 elite) and your tactics:

Enemy: Status: Staggered —> Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: Rank: Elite or higher —> Use ability: Crushing Prison

Scenario 1:
No enemies are staggered.  The tactics are skipped.

Scenario 2:
The elite is staggered (and the normals, but that doesn't matter).  The tactics select one of the staggered targets, then select the elite and casts Crushing Prison.  This is the end result that you want.

Scenario 3:
One (or more) of the normals are staggered, but the elite is not staggered.  The tactics select one of the staggered enemies, then casts Crushing Prison on the non-staggered elite.  I don't believe this is what you wanted.

The flaw in your logic is that every time any enemy is staggered, Crushing Prison will be cast on any elite selected by the AI.  This is the part that I feel, in my opinion, renders this compound condition useless.  It doesn't behave in a predictable or consistent way.  It may work some of the time for you, but it's also going to do the wrong thing just as often.  Also, the side effects of this unreliable logic are amplied when you have more than one elite present.

Modifié par nickan1022, 18 avril 2011 - 11:35 .

[Jack-Nader]

I just tried this

Enemy target of party member hawke : use current condition for next tactic
Enemy rank boss or higher : haste

result is that anders casts haste regardless of rank.

[SirValeq]

Did you put those tactics in the first two slots or somewhere lower on the list?

[Siham]

Do you play on a PC or a console, and do you have the latest patch? I think we should begin each post with [Machine / version], for more clarity. For example, [PC / 1.02] or [Xbox 1.01]

[SuicidalBaby]

cfs

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 19 avril 2011 - 12:21 .

[Jack-Nader]

PC 1.02 and yes, they are at the top of the list. No workies

[Siham]

Do us a favor and don't be so rude and patronizing, SuicidalBaby.

[SuicidalBaby]

cfs

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 19 avril 2011 - 12:22 .

[nickan1022]

Jack-Nader wrote...

I just tried this

Enemy target of party member hawke : use current condition for next tactic
Enemy rank boss or higher : haste

result is that anders casts haste regardless of rank.

Just to be sure, do you have any other "Use ability: Haste" tactics in that character's (or any other's) script?

If not, have you tried other Rank conditions to see if the problem is isolated to the Boss+ option?

[Jack-Nader]

No other haste settings in the list and yes I did try it. Are you saying that it is working correctly for you??

[nickan1022]

No, I haven't tried that particular condition (Enemy: Rank: Boss or higher). We're on different platforms, though, so my results will be different anyway, based on what I'm reading in the PC thread.

[Throm Battlebeard]

 I believe it’s betted asked here in this thread, instead of
creating a new thread regarding DA2 tactics and how the game works with them.

It slightly of topic and has little to do with the Use Current Condition for next tactic, but as I read these boards, I get a sense that most knowledge regarding tactic’s and how the work comes from this thread.

 

I’m trying to get an understanding on how the “Attack” Tactic
works



I’m pretty sure DA2 tactic rules are read from top to bottom
just like with DAO and once it can apply a rule, it would start reading from
top to bottom again.

In DOA when you used a condition like “Enemy: Nearest
Visible” combined with “Attack” as a rule it could pretty much always be
executed and any rule below it would go to waste for it basically never read
past that point, so the use of “Attack” needed be used and placed correctly
within your list of tactical rules.

For Archer/Mages who have AoE damage dealing
Abilities/Spells, but are fragile themselves, I often have one rule setup for
self defense very high up in the tactical rule order list.



Tactic for Bethany

Enemy: Attacking Party Member: Bethany > Attack



Or

Enemy: Attacking Party Member: Bethany > Use Current
Condition for next tactic

Enemy: Rank is Normal or lower > Attack

The general idea behind this is that when an AoE
spell/ability is used it risks provoking a hostile response from the enemies
who just got a Fireball thrown in their faces. Because the rule is high up in
the rule order it prevents more AoE spells from being cast and more enemies
being drawn to the mage. Other defense spells like mind blast and alike are
above this rule.



I’ve other party member’s setup to respond if the more
fragile group members are being attacked and for the most part intercept to quickly
dispatch the aggressor or try and force it attack someone else.





 Now for some odd reason, my rule order got messed up and the
rule “Enemy: Attacking Party Member: Bethany > Attack” from Bethany got
placed above mind blast. Yet, mind blast still got triggered.



Any of you guys have any information or know how about “Attack”
function and if it still stops other tactics below it to not be read/executed?



 

Modifié par Throm Battlebeard, 21 avril 2011 - 03:22 .