52 réponses à ce sujet

[Lukas Kristjanson]

TheStrand221 wrote...

I like the idea of this, but I'm not big on the execution. Changing her shield for the first time should prompt some sort of conversation about it, where you can convince her or force her to use another one and make the case for a better shield protecting her more. Once the shield is "retired" it could be hanging in her office, or you have the option of being a jerk and telling her you'll sell it. I think there would be plenty of ways to handle this. Maybe give the player a costly way to have it upgraded so she can keep using it. I like that she is reactive to what you do with it, but I dislike her bringing it up so long after the fact. Why wouldn't she say something about it at the time you switch it out?

It's also sort of unfair to the player when the game's expectations aren't consistent. Robbing chests right in front of anyone and everyone causes no reaction from anybody Aveline included, but putting Wesley's shield in your storage chest for safe keeping earns you a rebuke? Does not compute.

I may have gone too subtle on this one. She’s not upset you want to replace her dead husband’s shield, she’s already made her peace about that or you’d be right, she’d never put it down. This is about the new shield, and what she assumes is your intent. The codex description of it ties it to her namesake, Ser Aveline, the knightly legend she's been measured against her whole life. Think of it as accidentally triggering her defences for every fight she had with her father, who absolutely wanted her to emulate Ser Aveline, regardless of the strengths she forged for herself. Moving on in Kirkwall was difficult, and Avaline has changed, not always in ways she expected. Those trials (and giving up things that did matter) feel like they are diminished when the old Aveline ideal is shoved in her face yet again. She’s worried that, like many others, you want her to be something she’s not.

So, oddly, the act of giving only means something when you convince her the gift itself doesn’t. Arty meet farty, I suppose.

As for thinking Wesley’s shield was probably sold, well, it’s not on her person and you’ve probably had it in your house for three years where she can’t see it so... uh... Plausible Deniability!*


*I always hear that in his voice. With much the same results.

[Deylar]

I sold the shield.

If they wanted me to keep it, er make Quest Items unsellable.

Because she shouldn't use a weak shield.

[upsettingshorts]

Lukas Kristjanson wrote...

I may have gone too subtle on this one. *

I had a different interpretation but I thought it worked well.  Granted, I got +Friendship out of the exchange and wasn't punished at all.

Also, characters reacting badly to a minor decision you made that you thought had no consequences is a good thing.  As a player, you are not being punished.  You're being rewarded with content for making a decision.  DAO did almost none of this, so I appreciate every single example of it in DA2.

[Maria Caliban]

TheStrand221 wrote...

I like that she is reactive to what you do with it, but I dislike her bringing it up so long after the fact. Why wouldn't she say something about it at the time you switch it out?

Because the conversation is not about the shield. The shield is 100% superfluous to Aveline's issue.

TheStrand221 wrote...

It's also sort of unfair to the player when the game's expectations aren't consistent.

It has nothing to do with gameplay. It's a character moment.

Have you ever been angry or frustrated with someone and they do something that annoys you? Maybe 95% of the time, this thing wouldn't bother you at all, but right then - OH, it's SO IRRITATING.

Aveline likes Hawke, she cares for Hawke, and she'd die for Hawke. However, she's a Captain of the Guard. Hawke often breaks the law and also steamrolls through problems her guards can't handle. People like Hawke cause her trouble and she wishes you'd do things the proper way.

Is she being reasonable in that scene? No. But Aveline isn't much of a touchy-feely type. This is probably something that's been gnawing on her for a bit but she hasn't given voice to. It all comes out in a rush.

[edit]

Lukas Kristjanson wrote...

I may have gone too subtle on this one. She’s not upset you want to replace her dead husband’s shield, she’s already made her peace about that or you’d be right, she’d never put it down. This is about the new shield, and what she assumes is your intent. The codex description of it ties it to her namesake, Ser Aveline, the knightly legend she's been measured against her whole life. Think of it as accidentally triggering her defences for every fight she had with her father, who absolutely wanted her to emulate Ser Aveline, regardless of the strengths she forged for herself. Moving on in Kirkwall was difficult, and Avaline has changed, not always in ways she expected. Those trials (and giving up things that did matter) feel like they are diminished when the old Aveline ideal is shoved in her face yet again. She’s worried that, like many others, you want her to be something she’s not.

So, oddly, the act of giving only means something when you convince her the gift itself doesn’t. Arty meet farty, I suppose.

Oh.

I guess that's a valid interpretation as well.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 17 mars 2011 - 09:02 .

[Lithuasil]

Lukas Kristjanson wrote...



I may have gone too subtle on this one. She’s not upset you want to replace her dead husband’s shield, she’s already made her peace about that or you’d be right, she’d never put it down. This is about the new shield, and what she assumes is your intent. The codex description of it ties it to her namesake, Ser Aveline, the knightly legend she's been measured against her whole life. Think of it as accidentally triggering her defences for every fight she had with her father, who absolutely wanted her to emulate Ser Aveline, regardless of the strengths she forged for herself. Moving on in Kirkwall was difficult, and Avaline has changed, not always in ways she expected. Those trials (and giving up things that did matter) feel like they are diminished when the old Aveline ideal is shoved in her face yet again. She’s worried that, like many others, you want her to be something she’s not.

So, oddly, the act of giving only means something when you convince her the gift itself doesn’t. Arty meet farty, I suppose.

As for thinking Wesley’s shield was probably sold, well, it’s not on her person and you’ve probably had it in your house for three years where she can’t see it so... uh... Plausible Deniability!*


*I always hear that in his voice. With much the same results.

If that dialogue was your doing, good job made - I really didn't like Aveline (or Conan the Brabarian, as I like to call her) personally, but both her calling me out on selling the shield, and the whole "It probably didn't belong to Ser Aveline anyway" - "It does now" thing, was the single best moment I've had with that character

[Scottish TaZeR]

I sold the shield but still came out with her in a good mood...

[upsettingshorts]

Lithuasil wrote...

If that dialogue was your doing, good job made - I really didn't like Aveline (or Conan the Brabarian, as I like to call her) personally, but both her calling me out on selling the shield, and the whole "It probably didn't belong to Ser Aveline anyway" - "It does now" thing, was the single best moment I've had with that character

Lukas wrote Aveline.  As in the whole character, instances of collaboration possibly excepted.  AFAIK.

[Lithuasil]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

If that dialogue was your doing, good job made - I really didn't like Aveline (or Conan the Brabarian, as I like to call her) personally, but both her calling me out on selling the shield, and the whole "It probably didn't belong to Ser Aveline anyway" - "It does now" thing, was the single best moment I've had with that character

Lukas wrote Aveline.  As in the whole character, instances of collaboration possibly excepted.  AFAIK.

Ah, I don't know how they work - though I feel the need of rephrasing my above statement now, stupid pun aside - Neither of the two hawkes I actually roleplayed had reason to like here, hence why I didn't. (Please don't hit me )

[Foolsfolly]

Lukas deserves a handshake for writing Aveline's speech about her father once your mother died.

Bloody brilliant, sir. Gave me the manly welling of tears.

[Icy Magebane]

Well, I understood the meaning of the conversation, but I was just talking about the glitch/omission/whatever it was. Like I said, no big deal. It was really cool to actually hear all that, about her father and what he wanted her to be, etc, etc...

For the record, I think Avaline is one of, if not the most, engaging characters. Excellent work!

[Akron1983]

Aveline never acctually says that you sold it just that she thinks it got sold. Meaning its no longer in her posession and she dont know where it is exactly. Wich is funny since if she has such an emotional attachment to it she should know where it went

[Aurica]

Oh my I sold almost all my companions starting equipment because i thought I found better gear....
I think they are all going to chew me out for that! LOL

[Foolsfolly]

Aurica wrote...

Oh my I sold almost all my companions starting equipment because i thought I found better gear....
I think they are all going to chew me out for that! LOL

Just Av. And I loaded back and grabbed the shield (I had it and everyone else's starting gear saved) and put it on her to see what she would say. It's largely the same, because like Lukas said up there it isn't about the shield.

...yeah, I kept the starting gear.

[AlexXIV]

It doesn't matter if you sell wesley's shield, if she has it equipped or if you if you hold it in your inventory or storage. She will always get upset. And you just tell her that you found it and thought about her and it is all fine. Don't put too much thought into it, Bioware didn't either.

[TheStrand221]

Lukas Kristjanson wrote...

TheStrand221 wrote...

I like the idea of this, but I'm not big on the execution. Changing her shield for the first time should prompt some sort of conversation about it, where you can convince her or force her to use another one and make the case for a better shield protecting her more. Once the shield is "retired" it could be hanging in her office, or you have the option of being a jerk and telling her you'll sell it. I think there would be plenty of ways to handle this. Maybe give the player a costly way to have it upgraded so she can keep using it. I like that she is reactive to what you do with it, but I dislike her bringing it up so long after the fact. Why wouldn't she say something about it at the time you switch it out?

It's also sort of unfair to the player when the game's expectations aren't consistent. Robbing chests right in front of anyone and everyone causes no reaction from anybody Aveline included, but putting Wesley's shield in your storage chest for safe keeping earns you a rebuke? Does not compute.

I may have gone too subtle on this one. She’s not upset you want to replace her dead husband’s shield, she’s already made her peace about that or you’d be right, she’d never put it down. This is about the new shield, and what she assumes is your intent. The codex description of it ties it to her namesake, Ser Aveline, the knightly legend she's been measured against her whole life. Think of it as accidentally triggering her defences for every fight she had with her father, who absolutely wanted her to emulate Ser Aveline, regardless of the strengths she forged for herself. Moving on in Kirkwall was difficult, and Avaline has changed, not always in ways she expected. Those trials (and giving up things that did matter) feel like they are diminished when the old Aveline ideal is shoved in her face yet again. She’s worried that, like many others, you want her to be something she’s not.

So, oddly, the act of giving only means something when you convince her the gift itself doesn’t. Arty meet farty, I suppose.

As for thinking Wesley’s shield was probably sold, well, it’s not on her person and you’ve probably had it in your house for three years where she can’t see it so... uh... Plausible Deniability!*


*I always hear that in his voice. With much the same results.

Fair enough.  Maybe I should have given the whole issue more thought than "action x yields result y".  I'll never complain about a game that features social interaction that can't be solved like an equation.

[TexasToast712]

Darth Obvious wrote...

This is hilarious: I kept Wesley's shield the whole time, knowing that it probably meant something to Aveline, but later in the game she gets all pissed off when I try to give her some other shield, complaining that I sold Wesley's shield.

BUT I DIDN'T! 

Apparently the developers just assume that everyone will sell Wesley's shield, and thus you get chewed out by Aveline even if you kept the shield. Lame.

She recognized when I sold it in one playthrough and when i had it in my inventory in another.

[Ieldra]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Lukas deserves a handshake for writing Aveline's speech about her father once your mother died.

Bloody brilliant, sir. Gave me the manly welling of tears.

How do you get that speech? When she asked if she should tell some story of her father, I only got three variations of "no" as an answer.

[Foolsfolly]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
Lukas deserves a handshake for writing Aveline's speech about her father once your mother died.

Bloody brilliant, sir. Gave me the manly welling of tears.

How do you get that speech? When she asked if she should tell some story of her father, I only got three variations of "no" as an answer.

I have no idea.

Done two play-throughs and I couldn't say yes the first time and I could the second time.

It was a Star icon option so...that means you have to know something about her first? I don't know. It's stupid to not have a simple Yes option.

But the speech is good.

[Darkannex]

I understand about it not being the shield...but it's still rather startling to have her mention it...and she's wearing it. LOL. She's like "you sold it" and I want to be like "you're still WEARING it". I know it's not about that...but still, I may have to sell it just to feel consistent.

[Lukas Kristjanson]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

How do you get that speech? *snip* 

I have no idea.

Done two play-throughs and I couldn't say yes the first time and I could the second time. *snip*

It's stupid to not have a simple Yes option.

I agree, and it's a bug. I just posted yesterday about this over in the Aveline thread, actually. Basically, I hooped a dialogue link category, or at least, used it in a way that caused some unintended behaviour.

Blah blah blah, short version of the workaround, the option to continue that topic will be there if Aveline is in your active party when you go to speak to her. That’s The Captain’s Condolences plot, and thanks for enjoying it. It was a tricky moment and it's frustrating that not everyone is getting the option to see it.

Darkannex wrote...
I understand about it not being the shield...but it's still rather startling to have her mention it...and she's wearing it. *snip*

Yeah, that seems odd. The dialogue has branching for if the shield is equipped, in party inventory, and not in inventory. Some other players have seen those lines, so I'm not sure what's up in your case. I'll have a look. My cheeky claim of Plausible Deniability only applies to the out of inventory/storage/sold thing.

[nuclearpengu1nn]

this never happened to me when i changed her shield did i do something wrong?

[Lukas Kristjanson]

GreyWarden36 wrote...

this never happened to me when i changed her shield did i do something wrong?

Nope. Aveline doesn't mind using different shields or even giving up Wesley's shield. But there is one shield, the Shield of the Knight Herself, Aveline's "gift," that triggers a different issue. You probably just haven't run across it yet.



As an aside, "trigger" is probably a better word than "gift" because they aren't meant to always be positive things. Generally, a gift from a rival is viewed in that context. Some followers have completely different dialogues for getting a gift from a friend or rival, and it pushes them in the same direction. In Aveline's case, she has just the one, but your responses decide whether you get rivalry or friendship.

[Ron Brugal]

I think I keep it in my house to rub my sack on it every once in awhile. take that you crappy mage hunting Templar.

[TinHawk]

Just wanted to toss this in the mix for the people who didn't get to see it:

The Captain's Condolences (the speech about her father)

[Kinaori]

TinHawk wrote...

Just wanted to toss this in the mix for the people who didn't get to see it:

The Captain's Condolences (the speech about her father)

Ah, thank you for that.  That was a really awesome story.  I never could trigger it!