82 réponses à ce sujet

[Raccoonteuse]

Seriously, BioWare?

Based on my experience with the game so far (and I am admittedly only a little ways into Act 2, though I have read some spoilers about what happens w/ some characters), I have to assume EA's new character consultants are a 14 year old Twilight fangirl (who was asked to describe, in detail, every adolescent romantic fantasy she ever had since she was 13 in reference to Fenris, Anders, and Sebastian) and a 17 year old boy (whose only contributions were "bigger boobs - no BIGGER" and "make Isabella's skirt shorter - no SHORTER").  The PC's sibling is not around long enough to have required much work (though someone's got brother issues, apparently). Merrill was some programmer's mother's idea, presumably, and I can only surmise that the one character that you let a veteran adult writer have any say in was Varric (how did that one slip by?).   

So I ask again - SERIOUSLY, BioWare?

I am a 39-year-old adult female gamer.  I am a professional, as is my husband, and I think I am about as ideal a consumer as you can have. I have enough disposable income that I can afford to not only buy your games, but to buy the accessories and add-ons that go with them.  I have been gaming for a long time (I played Scott Adams text adventures  on cassette - cassette, people!) and I am a huge fan - which means that I also don't just buy the regular edition, I buy the collector's/special/signature edition.  As a rule (current rant aside) I do not clog your boards with posts - profane complaints about a game's release date or  gripes about the cost / hour of gameplay etc.  I just buy your games, register them, buy your expansions, buy your guides, buy your OTHER expansions - and then buy your next title. 

In return for my faithful and patient patronage, you give me......what?  An elf so ridiculously emo that your other NPCs mock him for it?  A tortured mage terrorist whose jokes wore thin in Awakenings?  A sanctimonious choir boy who took a vow of chastity that he takes seriously - even though he's the last of his line (which he says, repeatedly)?   With all the angst floating aroud, I am frankly surprised you did not add my own sibling to the list of eligible suitors!

The one male character who is mildly interesting - Varric - is not even a romantic option.  What is WRONG with you?  

I am happily married, and I am not looking for in-game virtual/digital romance to fill some emotional void in my life.  But I enjoy good storytelling (I am a writer and a writing instructor) and this is NOT it.  Not all or, I hope, even MOST, of your female gamers are Twilight fans who want to rescue some hoplelessly damaged soul or agonize over the tragedy of courtly love.  Whoever was in charge of the characters in Origins did a much better job.  If the same dude/gal was in charge of the chars here, they phoned it in (or had just watched New Moon for the 100th time or something).  

And, here's the weird part - I don't get why you thought this brooding collection of adolescent icons would appeal to your fan base.  Males 18-35 are still probably your biggest consumer group, and I don't see them being all gung ho about Anders or Fenris.  "Who is your favorite PC?"  "I love that emo barefoot elf and his huge sword!"  "Me? I  Anders - he's so tortured and mysterious!"  Now, I fully acknolwedge that Fenris' ginormous blades have a cool factor and that Anders is by far the best healer in the game - but weapons and tactics aside, they are not pleasant characters to have around.  So why not make them more appealing? 

So here's the long and short of it - You gave your male gamers Isabella (who I, as a heterosexual female, can comfortably say is 'hot') and Merrill (someone still likes the waif thing, right?). Aveline may appeal to some guys as well - I can't say.  You gave us women....sigh.  Last time the guys got Leliana and Morrigan (and Wynn, if you're into that sort of thing).  Last time women got Alistair and Zevran (but, thank heaven, not Oghren - I appreciate that). It was fair.  This time, the women got screw--, er shaft--, ehm - well, it wasn't quite a satisfying experience. Next time, how about showing your gamer gals a little more love?  

Thanks,

Laura

Modifié par Raccoonteuse, 16 mars 2011 - 02:21 .

[Posioned]

I see the point you're trying to make, but also not everyone is going to think the same way. I'm a female gamer who is closer to 30 then to 20. *sob* But I didn't find the characters that bad. Hell I loved Anders character and I liked Fenris. But from what I'm seeing on these boards, my opnion is in a minority.

[tanerb123]

i think you make a good point but what makes you think we like isabella and merril? they are very shallow characters done for teenagers by teenagers just like male ones.

[berelinde]

Heh. I'm older than either of you, and I would argue the reverse. OK, I'm not really into emo, so Fenris did not appeal to me, but I did like Anders very much. But then, I always play DA as a mage, so maybe I was able to feel more sympathy for him. His life is a trainwreck and he's hanging on to my PC to preserve his sanity. Neither Isabela nor Merrill appealed to me as romance partners, but I liked both of them better than I have liked any other female NPC since Mazzy Fentan.

And I've never seen Twilight.

[Raccoonteuse]

Fair point on Isabella - I have not played w/ her in my party because I am playing a blade-based rogue. I assumed, based on my discussions w/ her and on trailer bits that she was something less than shallow (but she is still way hotter LOOKING than Fenris and Anders combined!).

[Goldens]

I am also 39 and female and employed.  I had no problem with any of the companions, except for Isabella's grotesque appearance.  No big deal: I just can't look at her without thinking, "I'm not a major market segment."  It takes me out of the story for a second.  Other than that I don't think my age/gender/employment status affected my reactions much.  I looked for depth in characters and found it -- more of it than I expected, at first.

So what would appeal to "us"?  I like wit, good looks and depth, which puts me in a boat with just about everyone else.

[syllogi]

I'm a 30-something female, and while I would DEFINITELY prefer a less damaged male romance option, I find both Fenris and Anders very interesting, even if you are just doing a platonic friendship or rivalry with them. I would say, give them a chance, do all their quests, and listen to them. I understand not loving them as love interests, but as characters I think they have something to offer everyone.

For future Bioware games, though, I do hope the writers are paying attention to concerns like your post. I'll tell you right now, if they do make a "normal" male character, he will be ridiculed, called boring, whiny, and weak. Because Human Male Party Members who are not stoic, GRIMDARK Alpha Males automatically have a huge target on their forehead for abuse from many gamers. So, yeah, I would love to see this, but realize that the feedback that Bioware has gotten in the past is most likely why they didn't think it was necessary to include someone like that this time around.

[DuskWanderer]

So...let me get this straight? You think Varric's an interesting character, but you bash him because he's not romancable? You are aware that romance is entirely optional, and not even a big part of the story, right?

You say the storytelling is bad, but offer no examples as to "how" it is bad, just random comments about how you think the characters would not appeal to female gamers and rants about Twilight-esque romances.

Yeah, I think Fenris doesn't have much appeal to male gamers, but it's not about his romance, or his brooding (which seems to be more of an informed ability from the teasing, he just seems quiet moreso than angsty), it's about how his story is very slow and doesn't have an exciting hook, that he's more visually appealling then plotline appealling.

You say that Anders's jokes wore thin in Awakening, but I've been through the game and the number of jokes Anders makes are exceedingly limited when compared to the rest of his dialogue. The few I did see range from short chuckles (talking about what to do with Bartrand) to facepalms. He's a different person now, particularly in his quests.

I found Sebastian pretty interesting, but I didn't romance him. His quest and reactions to it were positively hilarious, and, near the end of the game, we see the angst, but it's completely justified considering what happens. You're also in the beginning of Act 2, which means you've just picked him up.

Take a step back, Laura, and try not to equate the characters simply by their romance. Merrill's got a lot of depths to her that don't revolve around her romance. Isabela's got positive gems for party banter and has an interesting history with parts of Act 2. Your sibling (and it's different depending on your class) develops interestingly over the course of the game depending on your choices.

[Rykoth]

As an aspiring writer, and someone who loves character development (and yes, I'm a straight male, so who knows you might attribute my opinion based on that) ... I have to disagree.

Anders
- In Awakening, Anders was a smartass. Last I checked, in DA2 he's much more serious, and IMO, has one of the cooler storylines. Yes, what he does is abhorrent to many people,  but his actions are essentially, the pulling of the grenade pin to start the biggest conflict in Thedas. And you know what? It would have happened eventually. If he didn't do it, someone else might have done something as equally horrifying.

- In my first playthrough as a more neutral Hawke that ultimately chose to side with the Mages, I found Anders to be a little bit of a douchebag with how one track minded he was. "Mage this mage that." I'm on my second playthrough now, and via subtle dialogue, and other things, I'm beginning to understand his mage plight. The Templars ARE abusive. So why shouldn't he, a former Grey Warden, be campaigning for this.

- I see nothing "Twilightish" about the guy. Seriously. As someone who writes, and tries to write believable characters in my often discarded stories, putting together a romance element is never easy. I've not played the Andersmance, but then again, I likely never will. I play male characters who like female characters as a general rule. (DAO was the exception because IMO, the concept of a Queen Grey Warden had more depth to it then generic "Hero of Fereldan with the King as his BFF") Anders is actually a fairly cool guy in the long run, who like many others in DA2, is flawed, and pushed too far.

Fenris
- Okay, Fenris... he's the Broodmaster. I can see the arguments about him. But then again. How else is a former slave going to be. He has no memory, but all he knows is that Tevinter = Mages, and thus Mages = Bad? On my Warrior playthrough, I let him collect dust, and eventually had to put him down for siding with Meredith. On my mage? It's interesting seeing the rivalry form.

So he MIGHT appeal to the stereotypical girl who likes broody guys. So what? You don't have to like every single character.

Merrill
- Merrill is a GREAT character for guys to love. Why not? She's quirky, she's got a Welsh Accent, and her story is absolutely tragic and satisfying. She's buggy, that's the biggest complaint about her, is that Bioware needs to patch the game so that she doesn't bug out all crazy like.

There's nothing "waifish" about her. She's an elf. Elves were redesigned to not look human. Is there a "Navi" resemblence? Certainly. But combined with the accents they gave the elves and all that, it seems fitting? Merrill to me gives off a "I come from a tribal society, so yeah, I might seem a bit  dumb because civilization overwhelms me" kind of vibe.

And its not like her romance is 100 percent super duper happy. Play through her questline.

Isabela
- So far, the only one I've romanced. Let's see what she has:
- Great assets
- Great storyline
- Great personality

- She might come across as the stereotypical female character a 17 year old might snicker at, but her storyline is very mature. Very mature, and not in an XXX porno kind of way.

Sebastian
- A guy who takes a vow of chastity won't have sex out of marriage? WHO KNEW? That's probably what it meant. I guarantee if he married FemaleHawke, he'd have her in bed the moment they tied the knot. That's how you expand the line. You do things all proper like if you're a religious sort. Crazy or not.

All of the romances from what I have gathered, are far more believable and mature then anything like DAO. I loved DAO make no mistake, but I'll take getting to know a character over a ten year plotline over deciding to shag in a tent at camp and declaring love after only a few months of knowing them.

[Rinji the Bearded]

All the LIs have their hang ups. The males are just a tad more extreme, especially in the case of Anders, but I would prefer characters to be their own characters instead of pandering to my character's whims/desires. Isabela's been around town, and she prefers openness in a relationship (meaning I am not sure that she'll ever be nailed down completely). Merrill is cute, but extremely naive to the point of endangering others, even the one she can potentially fall in love with.  I don't fault the characters themselves for it -- I can't.  Neither will I fault the writers.  I'm glad they made the characters more three-dimensional.

Heck, they even made Alistair grow a pair!  Calling my Queen Cousland the ol' ball and chain!  I hope she gets the time to yank on his ear and give him a stern talking-to if he sees her when she gets home.  HA!

But the game is a lot more than the LIs -- yes, it does help you to attach yourself to the story, but ultimately there are a lot more important things. I kinda like how Anders put it, even though he broke my heart into a million pieces doing it. He did warn me.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 16 mars 2011 - 02:59 .

[Raccoonteuse]

There is more to storytelling than romance - I don't actually write romances, and my work tends to have little romantic element in it. HOWEVER, if you are going to include the romance (and it's hard to avoid when you are talking to them and have the conversation options), why not make it something interesting and well-developed?

I don't bash Varric, btw - I just point out that he is the only really interesting and undamaged character, and yet they chose to make him inaccessible.

I also pointed out I was not looking for romance, per se - just an acknowledgment that there are people like me not swooning over Fenris or trying to fix/save Anders. *shrug*

@DuskWanderer: I was not writing a full critical analysis of the story or characterization - just sharing some frustrations I had w/ what I felt was weaker-than-necessary character development. BioWare reps have stated in interviews that they wanted this to be a storytelling game - to have us see the story unfold. I LOVE that aspect of this game, and I love the vehicle they use - Varric's interrogation - to tell it. I do not, though, love the characters they chose, at least not as they presented them.

Fenris has one dimension - one broodingly emotastic dimension. Anders was more interesting the first time I saw him in Awakenings, but now less so, because he does not seem to have grown or changed as a result of his circumstance. Characters need to be relatable, and I don't think most of these are. There is an adage in fiction that says, paraphrased, that you should either want to (sleep) with a character or have a beer w/ them. I want to do neither w/ any of the male chars, irrespective of their attractiveness as a romance.

[Raccoonteuse]

@Rykoth: Nope - don't have to like every character. BUT - you do have to be able relate to them in some way, either through your interaction w/ them as a reader (here, player) or through your POV character. That doesn't happen effectively, I don't think, w/ Anders or Fenris. *shrug*

Re: Sebastian - My understanding (and again - limited to what I've seen at the point in the game where I am and what I've read spoiler-wise online) is that he not only doesn't want sex before marriage - he doesn't want sex AFTER marriage either - he wants a true courtly love chaste marriage. The last in his line. Unbelievable AND boring. =)

[Rykoth]

You don't HAVE to relate to characters personally. But through a character POV? That's easy. Non Mage Hawke has a sister to protect. Mage Hawke? Duh. He's an apostate. I'm sure he/she can relate to Anders quite easy.

Fenris IMO, was designed to be a rival more then a friend. Even though you can befriend him, and even though you can try to step on the mage rebellion, ultimately, you are the oldest sibling in a family known for having apostates. That screams rival and hatred to me regarding Fenris.

[Goldens]

Raccoonteuse wrote...
I don't bash Varric, btw - I just point out that he is the only really interesting and undamaged character, and yet they chose to make him inaccessible.

They're all damaged.  Varric and Aveline just have the best coping mechanisms.

[Bruddajakka]

One thing I've noticed about the romances in DA2 is a lot of them play out throughout the entire game not just within the romance scenes we see.

[Puzzlewell]

I finally got to what I assume is the official stage of Isabela's romance and I can say that it's definitely handled quite well. On the surface yes she's hedonistic but when you actually explore her romance she's much more than that. Sheryl did the writing for her and the woman knows what she's doing when it comes to writing amazing characters.

Merrill I will be romancing my second time around. Had I known she was an option for LadyHawke from the start I might have romanced her on my first playthrough but I was set in my ways of being with Isabela already. She's a wonderful character and it broke my heart to tell her in this playthrough that I wasn't interested in her for a relationship. Her story is tragic and it basically feels like a case of the best intentions going bad (mind you I haven't completed chapter 3 yet or done her chapter 3 quest, sadly I've heard it's glitched. I hope this will be fixed soon).

[tasca1180]

Raccoonteuse wrote...

Fenris has one dimension - one broodingly emotastic dimension.  

Personally, I enjoyed Fenris a lot as a companion (not my love interest), because his personality felt very layered to me. He'd shout at me and argue, but tell me things he'd never told anyone else before the next time we met. Later, he'd feel stupid about letting me get so close. He hated my gifts and told me so. But in the end, he was loyal and fought by my side for something that I believed in.

He did feel like a person. He was difficult and sometimes surprisingly confusing. I saved before every conversation because I never knew which way it would go.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Rykoth wrote...

You don't HAVE to relate to characters personally. But through a character POV? That's easy. Non Mage Hawke has a sister to protect. Mage Hawke? Duh. He's an apostate. I'm sure he/she can relate to Anders quite easy.

Fenris IMO, was designed to be a rival more then a friend. Even though you can befriend him, and even though you can try to step on the mage rebellion, ultimately, you are the oldest sibling in a family known for having apostates. That screams rival and hatred to me regarding Fenris.

Yeah, I think that's the problem that a lot of people have... they project themselves onto Hawke.  While it's not necessarily a bad thing, I think people become more judgmental that way.

[Sjofn]

I find your readings of the various characters oddly shallow for someone who insists she wants deeper, better written characters.

The only character romance-wise I was a little "wtf" about is Sebastian. Mr. Duty-driven would almost certainly feel duty-driven to have babies so he stops being the last of his line. That whole "zomg chastity yay!" thing just rings very hollow to me.

[Bruddajakka]

Though one thing to keep in mind is that rivalry =/Hatred in the case of DA2. Otherwise why would they keep interacting with each other over the course of 7+ years.

[TanithAeyrs]

I can identify with what you're saying because early in Act 2 I felt much the same. I'm also female, 39 and a professional with a long history of playing RPG's. I will say give the game a chance. I found that I liked all of the characters more as the story progressed and they started to show some depth. Part of the problem, at least for me, was the limited interaction allowed made getting to know the characters much harder - I can understand limiting major conversations some, but really 2 conversations every 3 years - I think I would have talked to my companions more than that. Some of the banters, particularly later in the game did flesh them out a lot more but they didn't have the same effect as a proper conversation would have.

Varric was by far my favorite character, but I enjoyed all of them and they all have good reasons for being the way they are. My character didn't really feel compelled to "fix" any of them, she simply took them as they were and held on to her own convictions (which led to a very interesting ending - not what I had hoped, but a better roleplaying experience overall).

I can see several of the characters coming off as quite shallow on the friendship path. I would suggest roleplaying a different type of character next time and see what happens. Good luck.

[Sarah1281]

I got the Twilight vibes about the Anders flirtation in Act 1 but it was far better when the romance actually started. It wasn't Anders' fault, either. It was just that in order to set up the romance in Act 2 you have to flirt with him. All the flirt lines involved him explaining how he was very dangerous and you making a completely (IMO) inappropriate remark about how hot that is. So it was really more Hawke that I wanted to shake than Anders at that point.

[LadyJaneGrey]

<---Happily married to a kind, stable gentleman

I found it easier to enjoy the character interactions when I accepted that all the romance options, both guys and gals, have an element of "extreme fantasy soap opera." Would I personally ever be attracted to a real-world equivalent of these characters? No...but that doesn't mean I cannot enjoy watching the story play out.

[Emperor Iaius I]

tanerb123 wrote...

i think you make a good point but what makes you think we like isabella and merril? they are very shallow characters done for teenagers by teenagers just like male ones.

I protest. I agree about Isabela, who seems like some sort of male fantasy (if she has any depth at all, it might be in how she "changes" to be less selfish, but I don't give her the time of day so there's no way to tell) but it's completely unfair to say that about Merrill, who's the only character in the game who isn't bloody self-interested.

[tanerb123]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

tanerb123 wrote...

i think you make a good point but what makes you think we like isabella and merril? they are very shallow characters done for teenagers by teenagers just like male ones.

I protest. I agree about Isabela, who seems like some sort of male fantasy (if she has any depth at all, it might be in how she "changes" to be less selfish, but I don't give her the time of day so there's no way to tell) but it's completely unfair to say that about Merrill, who's the only character in the game who isn't bloody self-interested.

 and that is good? merrill is very childish and immature, like my gf when i was back in secondary school.