82 réponses à ce sujet

[panamakira]

I can see where you're coming from. I thought some of the romances were a bit too cliche and angsty but I enjoyed the characters overall. This is coming from a 23 yr old.

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, I'm in my forties with a reasonable education (which I'm sure I squandered by becoming a homemaker after having chidlren) and I love the male romance options -- one in a very positive way, and one in a very negative way. I'm not sure that age or education has much to do with taste.

[Esther]

I understand what you mean.

For me it was mainly the lack of companion interaction (only quest-related dialogues) which made it by far more difficult to "connect" to any of these guys...

I personally liked Fenris as a romance option.
Not because of his looks and there I fully agree with you - too emo - , but because 1. his voice and 2. he felt like a complex personality.
This mix of shyness and anger and strong opinions and innocence and inaccessibility (...) just fascinated me, and in the end, he even starts trusting you and becomes sort of loyal...

[graciegrace]

although I understand what you mean, thirty somethings aren't exactly the target demographic for DA2.

[Lady Jess]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, I'm in my forties with a reasonable education (which I'm sure I squandered by becoming a homemaker after having chidlren) and I love the male romance options -- one in a very positive way, and one in a very negative way. I'm not sure that age or education has much to do with taste.

Indeed, just like being a homemaker isn't squandering an education says the 37 yr old homemaker in her first semester of college;)

[MachDelta]

Just wanted to say that, if you finish some of the character's personal quests (and/or romance them), you'll learn a lot more about who they really are. Many of them are not as two dimensional as they seem.

[Addai]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

<---Happily married to a kind, stable gentleman

I found it easier to enjoy the character interactions when I accepted that all the romance options, both guys and gals, have an element of "extreme fantasy soap opera." Would I personally ever be attracted to a real-world equivalent of these characters? No...but that doesn't mean I cannot enjoy watching the story play out.

Agreed, but I do feel that the extremes are a little more extreme in DA2 than in Origins.  I find it harder to suspend the disbelief.

[MasterSamson88]

I'm an adult and I didn't really find the characters as two dimensional as you say...

I don't know, maybe it's because walking into a video game I'm not looking for someone that I could find in real life, or someone entirely realistic. Characters tend to have their extremes if only to make them more interesting. I'd much rather have that than a really normal character. Which is probably why I found Bethany so bloody boring. She's just too... normal.

[Addai]

I'm curious if the OP played Origins and what you thought of those romance story lines?

[speedy111280]

I could not disagree with you more, there is nothing Twilight-esque about the romances I've yet to think that my Hawkes would be better off without any of the romance options which I've said a million times about Twilight. Bella would be better off without Edward or Jacob, I don't think Hawke would be better off without Isabela, Anders, Fenris, Merrill or Sebastian. But I will say that their looks are pandering a little to the target demographic but the same could be said of all video games. How many effeminate male lead characters are there in JRPG's? Bioware is no different than any other developer when it comes to the looks of the character but story wise they set them selves a part from most developers.

The romances are a bit on the short side IMO but they aren't rushed and are handled very well, especially in comparison to the romances in ME2. Yes the LI's are a bit on the cliche side when you first meet them, (isn't every video game character cliche in some way?) but none of them turn out that way. Each one is a very complex person and damaged in some ways that you don't immediately find out, Anders maybe more so than anyone except Fenris, but really what do you expect from a fantasy game this dark? All the characters are damaged, even Hawke, but that doesn't make them any less awesome character wise because all of their character arc's are well done. They all react within their personalities to the story, even Sebastian (though I think he should give up his vow because he's the last of his line) and they are nothing like the characters in Twilight.

It does annoy me that the Twilight craze and even some authors perceptions of certain character types has made it seem bad to enjoy characters with a darker side to them (*coughJKRcough*) but really the companions here are hands down better written than every character in Twilight. The fascination with the broody, emo, dark characters is not new and has nothing to do with the Twilight craze. They've been around long before Stephenie Meyer had her dream about Edward and will be around long after people have forgotten about Twilight.

[MasterSamson88]

The Origins romances were... okay to me. Really the one I liked the most was probably Alistair's but what I didn't like was that the romances might as well had been categorized as good and evil.

I mean Morrigan was for evil characters as she hated you if you did anything slightly altruistic, Leliana and Alistair for good though if you showed any skepticism for the maker they had a tendency to cut you off pretty quick.. Zevren was... I don't know WHAT he was. xD He was somethin'. He really didn't care about much other than doin it down by the fire.

[griffondor]

I am female and an adult gamer as well and I understand and agree to a point. However, I have not romanced either Anders or Fenris and yet I felt a deep connection to the former and sympathy for the latter. I totally understood both characters and why they do what they do. But romance? No. The whole game is more horror flick rather than fantasy storytelling, with the serial killer, demons and tragedy galore... and the fact that you are a paid mercenary throughout the game instead of a defender of humanity. It's just a completely different tone than the first game.

The character I found the most appealing was Cullen and all you could do was flirt a little with him. I was impressed when he stood up to Meredith at the end. I would have loved to see my femHawk able to romance him.

It's funny the little things that can pull you out of a story though...in the demo I was put off by Isabella's looks (more her outfit than her assets...just wasn't believable that she would walk around a city half naked). But in the game, that didn't bother me near as much. What bothered me more was Meredith saying at the end, when Cullen tells her firmly to "stand down" she calls him an "idiot boy". Who calls a man in his position a "boy"? Or when you demand the maps from Anders he warns "Don't threaten me, little girl". I don't know, even saying "Don't threaten me, young Lady" would have sounded more appropriate. I don't like the characters being referred to as girls and boys instead of men and women. Those word choices made me think Bioware is assuming kids are playing their games and not adults, despite the Mature rating.

I hope that trend doesn't continue--they have an enormous potential group of new fans to add to their customer list by appealing to women as much as men, adults as much as children.

Origins definitely had more humor and romance, and Awakening more mature acting and sounding NPC's.

Note:  Having just completed a second playthrough where I romance Anders, it's a valid point to say that if you don't romance the characters, you miss out on some of the storytelling and drama.  But that's true of many of the quests as well--if I role play as myself which I always do (rather than playing Dr Jekle and Mr Hyde), I have to say "ok, pretend you wouldn't just walk away, that you don't have a choice, you must do this thing" so that the story will continue and I can get to the next quest or point in the story.  A light hearted, or "safe" romance would have been great escapism, but as has been said before, this story is much darker than the last.  You are literally forced to choose between a rock and a hard place.  I hope in the future, in addition to the difficult choices we are always faced with, we get a some respite with more romantic, light hearted or less dark DLC.  

Modifié par griffondor, 18 mars 2011 - 06:28 .

[maselphie]

What does this have to do with your gender or age? Characters without conflicts are boring.

I'm 24, and while I like Anders more than Fenris, I appreciate them both. Fenris does seem to cater to a younger audience, and specifically, a weeaboo one since he looks like an anime character (I LOVE HIM THOUGH REALLY), your point about Sebastian doesn't seem fair. He has conflicting interests, that weren't concocted for female pleasure sooooo ...?

The only Twilight moment I got from any of the characters was that both Anders and Fenris glow, and for different reasons. The "sparkly vampire" thing is a running joke, and I don't think anyone actually thinks that's something girls demand in their characters.

Modifié par maselphie, 16 mars 2011 - 06:16 .

[syllogi]

griffondor wrote...

The character I found the most appealing was Cullen and all you could do was flirt a little with him. I was impressed when he stood up to Meredith at the end. I would have loved to see my femHawk able to romance him.

 

THIS.  I thought he was a bit of a creeper in DA:O after playing the mage origin, but this time around he was the voice of reason, and rather good looking and honorable too.  I would totally support a Cullen romance in DA3...as long as they don't change his voice, AHEM.

[Sarah1281]

Bella would be better off without Edward or Jacob, I don't think Hawke would be better off without Isabela, Anders, Fenris, Merrill or Sebastian.

I'm not so sure about that. While I love Anders dearly, I kind of think my Hawke would have been better off not getting involved in that train wreck.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 16 mars 2011 - 07:32 .

[maselphie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Bella would be better off without Edward or Jacob, I don't think Hawke would be better off without Isabela, Anders, Fenris, Merrill or Sebastian.

I'm not so sure about that. While I love Anders deardly, I kind of think my Hawke would have been better off not getting involved in that train wreck.

She would have been better off not going to Kirkwall at all. /end story

[Sarah1281]

maselphie wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Bella would be better off without Edward or Jacob, I don't think Hawke would be better off without Isabela, Anders, Fenris, Merrill or Sebastian.

I'm not so sure about that. While I love Anders deardly, I kind of think my Hawke would have been better off not getting involved in that train wreck.

She would have been better off not going to Kirkwall at all. /end story

Probably, yeah.

[RosaAquafire]

Raccoonteuse wrote...
Fenris has one dimension - one broodingly emotastic dimension.

What.

He laughs at jokes he finds funny. He has a wild sex fling with Isabela. He makes fun of Varric's chest hair. He starts a gambling den in his house. When challenged, he admits that he focuses on the negative in his life too much. In the end, he can choose loyalty to a friend over the cause and hate that's dominated his life since his escape. He has an outrageous temper. He's judgemental and predjudiced. He's ashamed that he can't read.

AND he's brooding and self-absorbed. But that's just one dimension. Just because it's one you have every right not to dislike doesn't mean he's one-dimensional.

I'm a thirty year old woman with a degree and enough arrogance to call myself enlighted and intellectual, and *I* found Fenris the most compelling video game romance I've experienced, yet. Yeah, he's got the qualities of being a lady's silly fantasy. What's the matter with that? Alistair -- who I loved! -- is the worst example of this I've ever seen, he's a frigging romantic comedy lead. Zevran -- who I loved, too! -- is the most "fixable" dude I've ever seen, you heal his heartbreak over Rinna and teach him about love and commitment. It's what these games do. I don't want my fantasy romance to be well-adjusted and mundane like my boyfriend/girlfriend. I have a boyfriend/girlfriend for that.  I just want a character who's interesting, complicated, and, yeah, shoot me, swoony.

Don't try and speak for every mature female out there. Not everyone who liked Fenris -- or Anders, for that matter -- is a nattering, 13 year old Twilight fan. Just because you didn't happen to like either of these two characters doesn't make you any better than us.

[Maelora]

Raccoonteuse wrote...
So here's the long and short of it - You gave your male gamers Isabella (who I, as a heterosexual female, can comfortably say is 'hot') and Merrill (someone still likes the waif thing, right?). Aveline may appeal to some guys as well - I can't say.  You gave us women....sigh.  Last time the guys got Leliana and Morrigan (and Wynn, if you're into that sort of thing).  Last time women got Alistair and Zevran (but, thank heaven, not Oghren - I appreciate that). It was fair.  This time, the women got screw--, er shaft--, ehm - well, it wasn't quite a satisfying experience. Next time, how about showing your gamer gals a little more love?  

I'm a 41 year old woman who hates 'Twilight'.

Last time the women got Leliana too.

This time we got Merrill and Isabela.

There are many things wrong with DA2, but this is something they got right.

Come over to the dark side, Laura. You know you want to.

[Neleothesze]

Raccoonteuse wrote...
I am a 39-year-old adult female gamer.  I am a professional, as is my husband, and I think I am about as ideal a consumer as you can have. I have enough disposable income that I can afford to not only buy your games, but to buy the accessories and add-ons that go with them. 

I don't feel like an ideal consumer for the simple reason that I'm a woman. I will most often want someone male gamers don't. I can respect that most developers don't cater to my tastes and won't try to apply labels to the people who actually enjoy what those developers produce.

Personally, I hated the Twilight series. I forced myself through the books at the request of a friend and couldn't relate to any of the characters enough to find them likeable. The fact that I am lobbed together with "13 year old Twilight fangirls" and somehow with "17 year old teenage males" because I happen to like the way Fenris and Isabela are written is a bit insulting... also, quite amusing. It also doesn't do anything for the point you're trying to prove that you put people in little boxes.

The fact that you couldn't empathise with any of the romanceable characters in the sequel is sad, because Bioware might have lost a customer. If they do however gain 5 more who did manage it - and by the length of the Official Anders/Fenris/Merrill/Isabella/Aveline/Varric...threads I do believe there are at least 5 more people - then their writers have not made such a collosal mistake as you make it out to be.

 they are not pleasant characters to have around.  So why not make them more appealing? 

They are not pleasant, but they are interesting (even Merrill who persists in stupidity until it gets her Keeper killed). I will pick interesting over pleasant any day, even if it comes back to bite me in the ass by Act 3.


Also, this pretty much sums up my opinion of Fenris... and my opinion of your opinion of us who enjoyed the romance options.

RosaAquafire wrote...
He laughs at jokes he finds funny. He has a wild sex fling with Isabela. He makes fun of Varric's chest hair. He starts a gambling den in his house. When challenged, he admits that he focuses on the negative in his life too much. In the end, he can choose loyalty to a friend over the cause and hate that's dominated his life since his escape. He has an outrageous temper. He's judgemental and predjudiced. He's ashamed that he can't read.[...]

I'm a thirty year old woman with a degree and enough arrogance to call myself enlighted and intellectual, [...]
I don't want my fantasy romance to be well-adjusted and mundane like my boyfriend/girlfriend. I have a boyfriend/girlfriend for that. Don't try and speak for every mature female out there. Not everyone who liked Fenris -- or Anders, for that matter -- is a nattering, 13 year old Twilight fan. Just because you didn't happen to like either of these two characters doesn't make you any better than us.

Modifié par Indolence, 16 mars 2011 - 07:14 .

[Exile Isan]

I think it's interesting that everyone compares Fenris to Edward Cullen when in truth they have very little in common (except maybe a little brooding). Edward Cullen is a cheap version, IMNSHO, of BioWare's own Valen Shadowbreath from Hordes of the Underdark (although I doubt Stephanie Meyer has ever played that game). For those that don't know Valen is a tiefling who struggles constantly with his demonic heritage and wishes to be a better man. Sound familiar? Only Valen is ten times as interesting as Edward. Both Edward and Valen struggle with their nature (Valen's a better character though if you ask me) Fenris doesn't, he struggles with his hate of mages and magic and yet he still will romance a mage (friendship) and even says that s/he is the only mage he ever met that was not "weak". At least that's what he said about my non-blood mage mage.

Fenris actually has more in common with Valen than he does with Edward (which is not surprising since they were written by the same person, David Gaider). Valen was a slave, kidnapped as a child, to a Balor named Grimash't who threw him into battle after battle in the Blood Wars (age old war between demons and devils) and he had to fight or die. Valen fought and survived, but gave into his demonic blood. And became something less than human, "a beast" as he put it. A chance meeting with a drow priestess of Eillistraee changed all that. Valen remembered what he was and the life he had lead before he was kidnapped. Valen eventually escaped Grimash't (but not after tragedy struck his personal life) and he eventually killed Grimash't and all this happens before he meets the PC! Fenris is similar to Valen is this respect, only you get to help Fenris break his slave chains whereas you didn't get to with Valen he did it himself with help from the drow Seer. So I honestly don't know where the Edward Cullen comparisons come from.

If you couldn't tell I loved both Valen and Fenris and I hated Twilight, Edward Cullen and Bella for that matter.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 16 mars 2011 - 06:52 .

[Renessa]

Well, I am female, actually a little bit older than you (ONLY a little bit, mind you).
Oh, yes, and I hated Twilight (the book, never bothered with the film).

OK - "Normal" men as "love interests" have a difficult time in video games. Just look at poor Jacob in ME2, or even Kaidan (sigh*), who is actually pretty normal, but everybody accuses him of being "whiney").

Male gamers will hate on the male LI no matter what. I think Bioware learned that in ME2. So they probably thought: Ok, let't do male LIs, that at least the female fan-girl likes and, let's face it, most video gamers (even the females) are younger than us and love Edward.

No matter how much money we, the "older" gamers, have to spend, in the end the largest customer segment is the one that counts.

Having said all that, I think, you should give the guys of DA2 a second chance:

I was not interested in Fenris at all (at first sight he seems to be very "Twilight-ish), until I heard his voice in a preview. He has a very sexy voice. I romanced him just because of his voice and I don't regret it. Yes, he is scarred from his time as a slave and has difficulties getting over it, but I played a fairly sarcastic Hawke (with a heart of gold) and he was one of the few characters, who actually smiled at my Lady Hawke's witty comments. Always a BIG plus in my book. All in all, I thought, he was much more... hm... manly? than I expected. And the end-scene is really hot. Well, for me, anyway... Did I mention his sexy voice?

I thought Anders a well written character, actually. I was never that keen on him in Awakenings, he was amusing, not much more, so I thought, the way they developed him in DA2 was interesting. His actions were believable and that is a major point for me. (His voice was not as sexy as Fenris' voice, though)

Varric as a LI would have been great. He was fun to be around. Fun male LIs are missing in Bioware games. (Although, he was missing THAT voice).

How I would love to have a really strong male char as a LI just once. A Han Solo, or even someone like Drake from Uncharted. But the thing is, these are pretty strong male characters and no male player will ever accept another Alpha male character next to his PC. And as long as they are in the majority, they call the shots.

[maselphie]

We should be able to woo Donnic away from Aveline. Now THERE'S a manly man.

[highcastle]

No one is going to be pleased by all characters all the time. I, however, found all the characters in this game to have their merits. Anders' romance arc was one of the best I've ever seen in a game because of the tragedy at the end (particularly on a first playthrough where you have no idea what's going to happen). Isabela comes across as shallow and promiscuous, but she has a heart. Merrill may be cute and innocent on appearance, but she consults with demons. Fenris is brooding and angsty, but he was also a slave. I think that justifies it a bit.

Every character had strengths and flaws. And the flaws make them more enjoyable, more human (or elven). But at the end of the day, if you don't like the romances, don't play them. Just don't assume everyone hates them. Personally, I much preferred them to Origins.

[speedy111280]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Bella would be better off without Edward or Jacob, I don't think Hawke would be better off without Isabela, Anders, Fenris, Merrill or Sebastian.

I'm not so sure about that. While I love Anders deardly, I kind of think my Hawke would have been better off not getting involved in that train wreck.

Oddly enough, despite what he does at the end I don't think Hawke would have been better off without Anders because I think each of the characters and their relationship with Hawke makes Hawke a better person and gives Hawke a family of a sorts once Bethany, Carver and Mother are all gone. Kirkwall as whole is the one that would have been better off without Anders. Hawke needed all of their companionship because every time Hawke turned around he/she was failing at doing the one thing Hawke intended, to take care of the family.