51 réponses à ce sujet

[Pwnsaur]

This is a topic I posted in the General discussion area. Someone mentioned I should post it here so the 'right' people may read it. I hope it captures the thoughts of some of my fellow BioWare friends here...

Before I begin, I'd just like to provide some background information. BioWare turned me into a 'nerd.' The game that changed my opinion and expectation of what a game could be was KOTOR. It literally blew me away, and I told everyone I knew about it, still to this day. I have played, loved, and beaten KOTOR 1-2, Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1-2 and DA:O. I have convinced no less than 40 people to play/buy a BioWare game in the last 10 years. I am a BIG fan.

What I have come to expect is a world and a story that becomes personal, one that I can reach out and touch. DA2 has let me down in a way that I thought impossible. I am only 26yo, not a jaded old-school gamer by any means, so I feel like I am in the target demographic. This game is so cold, clinical and barren. It feels like a corporate product and not a lovingly crafted piece of art. It is just so shallow, I can't believe it's from BioWare.

What has happened to the NPC interaction? WHERE is it? I run around a huge city, run room-to-room in a tavern, chantry, etc and I talk to NO ONE. There is no one to talk to at all! I remember all the ways that I touch and interact and affect the game world in DA:O and KOTOR and Mass Effect and it's all GONE from DA2. I no longer come upon someone in need, learning a bit about them before deciding if and how I can help them. The seemingly small, intricate little stories that make my gaming experience personal are all gone; Replaced with NPC's standing and uttering one-liners ad-nauseum and gesturing towards nothing and no one.

Gone is the cool little story about a Dwarf girl arguing with her merchant father about studying magic at the circle tower. Gone is the waitress being subjugated by her domineering and rude boss, who has dreams of owning the bar herself one day. Gone is the Dalish Elf who is trying to cure her sick animal and needs the calm words of someone with an understanding of nature. Gone... All gone... But WHY? All these things are what make the story personal, special, and our own. WHY have they been erased?

The quests.... What happened.... I run through buildings picking up random objects that I telepathically navigate back to their owners who DON'T EVEN SPEAK TO ME when I inexplicably return them. This is such an obvious lack of love and effort put into the game. The whole world is so incredibly callous and disconnected, almost completely ignoring the character and our story in every way. We are just funnelled from one quest to the next, not leaving our mark or affecting anyone in any discernible way. It makes me so sad...

Of personal taste is the story. It feels so disjointed and unfocused to me. I don't think there's anything less compelling than hearing my sister spur my progress with 'We need status and coin.' I can't imagine a less noble, and less heroic reason to play an RPG. Maybe we don't need to be fighting against the end-of-the-world everytime, but I feel that the motivations in DA2 are.... like the rest of the game... shallow.

The rest of my issues have already been covered by others, so I will leave them out of my post to avoid sounding hyperbolic. I am sorry that I am so negative towards this game. I am not a 'hater,' or an angry 'PC Gamer' or any other miffed stereotype. I am just a guy that KNOWS BioWare CAN and HAS done so much better. It is so hard to believe that I will finally NOT be recommending this game to everyone I know and talk to.

BioWare has built a reputation that has been spread by US, the people most affected and most positive about their games. Their success as a developer has been facilitated by the growing core fan-base whose word-of-mouth advertising has introduced gamer after gamer to our favorite games. I was once one of these unsuspecting people, who was introduced to KOTOR so many years ago. In chasing the casual fan, and compromising their original vision they have hurt and disappointed many of the fans that have been there for 10+ years. I know I am just one guy, and that my tiny voice can only cry so loud; But I, along with so many others, have built the reputation that BioWare now enjoys as the foundation of their success. Next time, please don't forget your most loyal customers, our money is just as valuable as any one elses.

[Frybread76]

IMO, DA2 was designed to be a movie, with a predetermined storyline that really doesn't diverge much at all despite the "choices" Hawke is presented with.

In way, it reminds me of ME2, which also had much of its RPG elements stripped compared to ME. I don't like the way Bioware is going with its games, but as long as they sell they have no reason to change.

[Denpos1]

There's a lot of people who do like DA2 and bioware for what they done with it though like me

[Hexsun]

Get Elder Scrolls V in november. Or The Witcher 2.

[termokanden]

ME2 was a shooter though, and that is exactly the part that was massively improved in the sequel. And ME1 contained a lot of pointless quests where you drive across yet another random world in the Mako, kill random enemies in a building you've somehow seen before. ME1 was a great game, but there were things that needed to change. Not every change was for the better, but on the whole I thought ME2 was a better game.

DA2 is a different story though. I enjoyed playing through the game, but the massive reuse of areas and the amount of bugs really hurt the game. I also don't like how every mage in the game apart from maybe one or two is a blood mage. It's like they're telling us to make a choice, but we no matter what we do it will be the wrong choice. It's too much like real life in that regard I think

[Frybread76]

ME2 is a third-person shooter with RPG elements. ME was an RPG with shooter elements. I preferred the latter, even if there was problems.

[termokanden]

I would also call ME a shooter with RPG elements but that's a matter of opinion I guess. What I'm reacting against here is how people bring up ME2 as an example of Bioware going in the wrong direction. I just don't see it.

DA2 yes, there I would agree. But I think that was already happening with some of the DLCs for DAO actually. The base game was the best part by far.

[Fair34]

As much as I enjoyed this game, I agree with the OP.

There is something "off" about this game that makes it seem less a Bioware product than previous offerings. Had this game been made by anyone other than Bioware, I would have probably enjoyed this game more since my standards would not have been set so high.

[TheRevanchist]

There isn't suppose to be a "right" and "wrong" choice in this game...because both sides ARE right...and both sides ARE wrong. You simply have to decide what you think is the lesser of two evils.

[Darth Obvious]

The golden age of Bioware was KotOR, Jade Empire, and Mass Effect, three of the best video games of all-time, IMO.

Since then, things have gone downhill. ME2 was a huge disappointment, with a weak overall plot and with many of the options from ME simply taken away from the player (e.g. extremely limited armor/appearance choices). Also, ridiculous storylines like Shep getting killed in the beginning served virtually no purpose at all, and simply make the opening sequence take a VERY LONG TIME. Oh, I want to restart and change my character's face.... Sorry, but now you have to sit through that ENTIRE opening sequence all over again. Forget it, I'll just play something else.

DA:O was good (if a bit tedious at times... spending literally all day inside the Deep Roads was agonizing, and inventory management was a real pain), but with DA2 Bioware has sunk to a new low. Taking after ME2, many of the customization options available to the player in previous games have been completely removed, and the overall plot is the worst ever by Bioware. Just like with ME2, these things really kill replay value, and that's a bad sign for a supposed "RPG" where the player is supposed to have CHOICE.

[kevin cousland]

yeah get elser scrolls that will be so awesome i remember the first time i got oblivion when it first can out on 360 ages ago it was so glorious and awesome its like i was living in the game cyrodil became home, we need more games like that.

oh and not to brag everyone said that there was a level cap on oblivion lvl 50 they said.
but then i came along and got to level 87 and progressing ever more but i got bored and stopped.
and no it wasnt a cheat. punch a guard get locked up lose skill points get them back up and voila. progression...... wow thats quite a change of topic.

[Parrk]

I think that there exists popular misunderstanding of the scope of rpg development and what it entails. They can only ever give us a certain number of finite states (endings), and each additional supported ending adds exponentially to the technical and creative difficulty of the endeavor.

I have read opinions of some who say that they feel they were not given enough of a choice in shaping outcome, or that the outcome is pre-determined. this is true and untrue. Sure, you only unlock the achievement if you finish an final battle, but you are free to choose to simply abstain from such......and turn the game off. I see much in the way of stating issues with no real discussion of how those issues could be fixed.

It may be that you have to choose between rich companion interaction and depth of narrative. The story in DA2 is far more thorough developed and just seems richer imo. Your hands are tied to a point. There exist tasks that you must complete in order to become the champion of Kirkwall. I do not see thow that could have been made different.

This game plays much like "a day in the life". There are quests that have little bearing on the grand narrative, but this game is essentially about a person, rather than a task.

What it comes down to in my mind is that the addition of a "conscientious objector" ending would have meant that the game reached us several months later and would require us to complete an additional body of quests that few people would ever care about.

The companion dialogue was replaced by additional companion quests for the most part. I can understand how some might have preferred the DAO approach, but I am not sure they are remembering correctly how shallow those dialogues were. Sure, you could have a 20 min conversation with Liliana as soon as you meet her....but then you had to read those same conversation choices for the next 60 hours of game time.

Here , they have adopted a paradigm where the companion development is gated and feels smoother.

This game may not be the best example of the rpg genre, and that's ok. They would not have produced it the way they did if that was what they were going for. RPG is an overarching genre indicator that implies character development and growth. Not every game that is called an rpg will need to meet your expectations of all that that entails.

You may be trying to compare this product to your personal standards and determining that it is lacking. You are one consumer though, and they are faced with pleasing millions. the easiest way to please the largest number of people is to cut out the overly-arduous parts valued by the fewest number.

That is what was done here. I can relate to these types of posts though because I too see where improvements could have been made, but a forum consensus, if such a thing is even possible, would only ever reveal the views of a vocal minority.

[termokanden]

kylecouch wrote...

There isn't suppose to be a "right" and "wrong" choice in this game...because both sides ARE right...and both sides ARE wrong. You simply have to decide what you think is the lesser of two evils.

I know. And I think they overemphasize this point in many RPGs and particularly this one. Everything always goes wrong somehow.

I also think there are way too many blood mages, and again (as in the first game) they managed to portray all blood magic as evil. Yet you can play a blood mage yourself and not have any kind of problems like turning into an abomination. You can be a "good" blood mage, and yet nobody else in the entire world can do the same. They spend so much time patiently teaching us about moral shades of grey and then weirdly there's very clearly good magic and evil magic.

Modifié par termokanden, 16 mars 2011 - 03:57 .

[yogolol]

Pwnsaur wrote...

Gone is the cool little story about a Dwarf girl arguing with her merchant father about studying magic at the circle tower. Gone is the waitress being subjugated by her domineering and rude boss, who has dreams of owning the bar herself one day. Gone is the Dalish Elf who is trying to cure her sick animal and needs the calm words of someone with an understanding of nature. Gone... All gone... But WHY? All these things are what make the story personal, special, and our own. WHY have they been erased? 

Uh did you even play the side quests? There are lots of these quests, do you decide to help the man find his wife even though he clearly doesn`t care about her? Do you decide to send Faryniel (that dreamer mage) to the circle or with the Dalish? Do you give the mages hiding in the cave over to the templars or help them escape? These moments came out, I guess you just ignored them.

Pwnsaur wrote...

The quests.... What happened.... I run through buildings picking up random objects that I telepathically navigate back to their owners who DON'T EVEN SPEAK TO ME when I inexplicably return them. This is such an obvious lack of love and effort put into the game. The whole world is so incredibly callous and disconnected, almost completely ignoring the character and our story in every way. We are just funnelled from one quest to the next, not leaving our mark or affecting anyone in any discernible way. It makes me so sad...

They do speak to you, the say a line and I agree that these quests were very useless and a waste of time to even add in. BUT this game is filled with sidequests that are way better than the one in Origins, an example of Origins sidequest would be go to place, save some people from darkspawn and get a line of dialogue and return to the Chantry to hear a bible quote. An example of DA2 sidequests is basically the same in go to a place same some people but there`s a lot more involvement with your party, they always chime in to say their opinion and it seems you`re always making a decision. They`re way better done in DA2 and to talk about just the ones you`re talking about and just ignore all the rest ruins your credibility.

[yogolol]

termokanden wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

There isn't suppose to be a "right" and "wrong" choice in this game...because both sides ARE right...and both sides ARE wrong. You simply have to decide what you think is the lesser of two evils.

I know. And I think they overemphasize this point in many RPGs and particularly this one. Everything always goes wrong somehow.

I also think there are way too many blood mages, and again (as in the first game) they managed to portray all blood magic as evil. Yet you can play a blood mage yourself and not have any kind of problems like turning into an abomination. You can be a "good" blood mage, and yet nobody else in the entire world can do the same. They spend so much time patiently teaching us about moral shades of grey and then weirdly there's very clearly good magic and evil magic.

Merill was a blood mage and she wasn`t evil, but I agree we need some more good blood mages. 

[Parrk]

Merill wasn't "really" a blood mage though. She used blood sparingly. The single largest difference though is that she used her own....which appears to be the chief distinction between good and bad blood mages.

[rcollins1701]

termokanden wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

There isn't suppose to be a "right" and "wrong" choice in this game...because both sides ARE right...and both sides ARE wrong. You simply have to decide what you think is the lesser of two evils.

I know. And I think they overemphasize this point in many RPGs and particularly this one. Everything always goes wrong somehow.

I also think there are way too many blood mages, and again (as in the first game) they managed to portray all blood magic as evil. Yet you can play a blood mage yourself and not have any kind of problems like turning into an abomination. You can be a "good" blood mage, and yet nobody else in the entire world can do the same. They spend so much time patiently teaching us about moral shades of grey and then weirdly there's very clearly good magic and evil magic.

But don't you have to sacrifice a child to a demon to become a blood mage? Not right away, to be sure, but sacrificing children to demons is at least a gray area on the scale of morality, no? 

[Everwarden]

Frybread76 wrote...
 but as long as they sell they have no reason to change.

True enough.

So let's all hope that DA2 crashes like a lead balloon, yes? Maybe Bioware will remember that quality actually matters to their audience. 

[yogolol]

rcollins1701 wrote...

termokanden wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

There isn't suppose to be a "right" and "wrong" choice in this game...because both sides ARE right...and both sides ARE wrong. You simply have to decide what you think is the lesser of two evils.

I know. And I think they overemphasize this point in many RPGs and particularly this one. Everything always goes wrong somehow.

I also think there are way too many blood mages, and again (as in the first game) they managed to portray all blood magic as evil. Yet you can play a blood mage yourself and not have any kind of problems like turning into an abomination. You can be a "good" blood mage, and yet nobody else in the entire world can do the same. They spend so much time patiently teaching us about moral shades of grey and then weirdly there's very clearly good magic and evil magic.

But don't you have to sacrifice a child to a demon to become a blood mage? Not right away, to be sure, but sacrificing children to demons is at least a gray area on the scale of morality, no? 

He said it was like that in the first game too.

[rcollins1701]

I guess what I mean to ask is how can one be a "good" blood mage in the first game if the very way you become a blood mage is to sacrifice children to desire demons?

I suppose the problem with blood magic is that its source is blood. That blood has to come from somewhere. Jowan offers to save Connor, which is nice and good, but he has to kill someone to do it. Merrill uses her own to break barriers down and such, but that limits her power. If she wanted to use stronger magic she'd need more blood, and she'd have to get it from somewhere besides herself simply for practical concerns (like being alive to finish the spell!). And of course, getting that blood usually leads to people exploding on the battlefield…

[Johnny20]

I enjoyed the game, but Origins was far, far superior. I think Bioware has known this for sometime, but rushed the game out anyway for the $$$

[Alessar1288]

I don't get why people bring up Jade Empire as being good bioware. I always found it boring.

[termokanden]

You don't have to sacrifice anyone in DA2 to become a blood mage. I keep forgetting that part in DAO because the specialization was just unlocked for me in later games.

The comment about using blood... Well, making people walking bombs also seems pretty evil to me. Smacking someone in the face with a mace is also pretty mean. You do what you can to win. It's not really inherently evil, it's a matter of survival.

[IanPolaris]

rcollins1701 wrote...

I guess what I mean to ask is how can one be a "good" blood mage in the first game if the very way you become a blood mage is to sacrifice children to desire demons?

This is utterly false.  There are many ways to learn bloodmagic and most aren't any more evil than taking a course at your local university.  In the case of DAO, your warden can force the desire demon to teach you bloodmagic in exchange for it's life.  That's hardly evil.  Likewise in DAA, you can simply buy a book of blood magic, and we know that such books exist and people use them even in DAO.  The point is you don't have to be evil to learn bloodmagic.  There is, however, a price for bloodmagic and bloodmagic is dangerous especially in the wrong hands.

-Polaris