30 réponses à ce sujet

[VigilPrime]

 Hey everyone. I don't know how active these forums are but I've been meaning to get back into BG2 and this has been frustrating me.

Basically I don't know how a lot of the game mechanics work so I'm confused as to the benefits of either going a pure mage or a dual class kensai/mage. For starters, if I dual class at level 9 into mage will I be able to get level 10 spells? This is my main concern. If not I'm going to create a pure mage.

Secondly, what are the benefits of going kensai first besides a weapon proficiency in swords? You stop leveling in your first class when you dual class right? So won't I essentially be a very weak fighter/strong mage? 

Thanks for all the help guys.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Kensai mages are said to be the most powerful - kensai class adds bonuses to damage and THAC0 every few levels, and the kai ability maximises all damage - the fact they can't wear armour or gauntlets becomes insignifcant due to the class advantages, though don't make the best tanks - more melee class of death.

I would probably dual class to mage more level 12 - and you can still get access to epic spells easy peesy.
I think the xp cap is like 8 million, so you could probably get away with being level 18 kensai - although it won't make TOB easy at the start, and youll probably regain your kensai powers halfway though the campaign.

[VigilPrime]

Thanks for the reply Biotic Warlock. What do you mean regain my kensai powers?

I'm still confused about THAC0 as well. Does a better THAC0 translate to better hit or better dodge?

[Gipp3r]

simply. Low THAC0 means you will hit enemies better.
Low AC (Armor class) makes you harder to hit.

a Kensai/mages essentially boils down to that you get a mage almost as powerful as a normal mage that can also fight in close combat.
It's very popular since you can use several spells to augment and negate the fact that a kensai can't use armor

[Dante2377]

It really depends on playstyle, how many and which NPCs you're going to recruit, are you going to play TOB, etc.

If you're going to go to level 12 with a Kensai before dual-classing, you might as well get level 13 so you get the extra 1/2 attack that comes with a level 13 warrior.

Either one is a strong character and in the category of "power classes", but the Kensai -> Mage has received an extra-ordinary amount of hype over the years (e.g. it's not the "OMG best EVAR", but simply one of the PCs near the top of the power curve).

[VigilPrime]

I am still unsure if I will be able to get level 10 spells though. Is it possible?

[Grond0]

VigilPrime wrote...

I am still unsure if I will be able to get level 10 spells though. Is it possible?

Level 10 spells are simply the higher level abilities available to mages from L18 onwards - other character classes have their own abilities.

If you are just playing SoA with the experience cap of 2.95m you won't get HLAs, but you will have no problem if you are playing ToB (or have deleted the experience cap with a mod).

[Gorthaur X]

Provided you dual at level 9 or 13 and play through ToB, it's basically inevitable that you will. You might even reach them while you're still in the SoA portion of the game, depending on how you play.

As long as you dual-class into mage before you reach level 22 as a kensai, it will be possible to reactivate your kensai class and, yes, be able to cast epic level spells under the ToB exp cap.

[Dante2377]

Grond0 wrote...

VigilPrime wrote...

I am still unsure if I will be able to get level 10 spells though. Is it possible?

Level 10 spells are simply the higher level abilities available to mages from L18 onwards - other character classes have their own abilities.

..and to clarify even more, they are not really "level 10" spells, they are more like additional, more powerful level 9 spells, in that you cast them just like any other 9th level spell (e.g. for sorcerers they show  up in the level 9 slot and come out of the level 9 spell count.  For Mages you memorize them in the 9th level slot).

For Example, taking the Summon Planetar HLA simply puts the Summon Planetar spell in your spellbook on the 9th level page and then you would cast it however you normally would cast 9th level spells.

[Son of Imoen]

VigilPrime wrote...

Thanks for the reply Biotic Warlock. What do you mean regain my kensai powers?

After dualclassing to another level, if x is the level of your first class when you dualled, you wil only have the abilities of the second class until you've reached lvl x+1 in your second class (or put in another way: once you have more levels in your second class than in your first class). Until that time the Kensai abililties will be 'passive' e.g. not usable. [Disadvantages will count though, If I'm right. A Kensai dualed to something else can't use armour, even while Kensai abilities are inactive]

[VigilPrime]

Thank you all so much for the help. That was my major concern. The only real reason I am playing kensai/mage is because I find it sort of foolish, even as a mage, that I would walk around without at least a sword. So if I couldn't get level 10 spells then I would just roll mage.

So from having kensai though I get bonus to damage/hit and stuff like that, but I'm assuming as soon as I duel I stop getting those bonuses when I level up? At level 9 or 12 will they be significant? I am also assuming that by kensai abilities you mean kai?

Thanks again guys.

[VigilPrime]

Oops, double post from lag.

Modifié par VigilPrime, 17 mars 2011 - 10:41 .

[Dante2377]

Yes, as soon as you stop leveling in your first class, you stop receiving any level-up type of abilities. In the example of a Kensai dualed to a mage after receiving Kensai level 9, your Kensai abilities would be to hit/damage bonus of +3, -2 AC bonus, -2 speed factor, and 2-3 uses of Kai, along with the saving throws and THACO of a fighter. Once you dual to a mage, you start over as a level one mage and lose all your Kensai abilities (although notice that the restrictions of no armor/bracers/helmets/etc are STILL in place and will ALWAYS be in place). That's one of the reasons that a Kensai dualed to a thief is powerful - because if you dual later and get a bigger damage bonus, when you level up as a thief, all that extra kensai damage is x5 for backstab AND you can activate the KAI for a larger backstab. With the thief Use Any Item HLA, you can then wear armor and any equipment you want.

In general in terms of fighter dual-ing to a mage, I've found Berserker -> Mage to be more useful. this bit from Dan Simpson's awesome walkthrough sums it up nicely:

Thoughts on Kensai/Mages and other Combinations: (from RCL)
------------------------------------------------

While I can imagine how high level Kensais can be killing machines, I do not
believe they are worth it if you dual them out at level 9. At that time,
compared to normal fighters they only have +3 to hit and +3 damage (plus 3
uses of the Kai ability and -2 speed factors) - which is, in other words,
about an additional 15%-20% bonus depending on your stats, skills and
weapons. However, this is at the expense of not being able to use missile
weapons and more importantly, not being able to use bracers, gauntlets,
helmets, shields and armors.

Even if you, for example, use the shield amulet to make up for the horrible
AC, you won't be able to utilize other abilities offered by the equipment
(such as super fire protection by wearing the whole set of dragon
helm/shield/armor; increased charisma with the Helm of Glory;
missile/beholder ray protection from the reflection/fortress/Balduran's
shields, etc.). After you dual the Kensai to a mage, the inability to use
bracers and missile weapons can make him a liability to the group for a long
while until he regains his Kensai abilities.

A Berserker warrior will be better mage-dualling material. First of all, he
is almost equivalent with a level-9 Kensai in melee abilities with his +2
Thac0/ +2 damage during his rage. In addition, during his rage he will gain
15 hp and have very important immunities (which alone IMO makes up for the
Kai ability); he can use ranged weapons if you want, and he has zero
limitation to his equipment - even if you don't feel like enabling/disabling
your magic casting abilities with heavy armors all the time, Bracers AC3 can
help a lot. Personally, I will take all these advantages and additional
flexibility over the Kai ability and -2 speed factors any day.

----end bit-----

For a fighter dualed to a mage, the Berserker Rage, which gives immunity to basically everything, has always been FAR more valuable to me during difficult parts of the game (when you actually need all the help you can get) than any Kensai abilities.

The Kensai -> Mage is basicaly minimzing disadvantages (e.g. the Kensai disadvantage of not wearing armor is irrelevant for a mage since they can't wear armor anyway), while the Berserker -> Mage is about maximizing advantages (e.g. using the Berserker rage for immunities means you don't have to use spells or items defensively to cover against all those items but can instead focus on killing/incapacitating enemies).

[VigilPrime]

Is a Thac0 bonus of +2 considered good? I mean if I just stuck with kensai all the way what kind of thac0 bonus would I see? I'm guessing the mage spells will make up for me not getting the rest of it.

[Dante2377]

It's fine, but nothing to write home about. If you just stuck with a Kensai the whole game (e.g. through into TOB) and didn't dual class, you'd end up with a character that hits every time except for critical misses (when you roll a 1), but that's pretty much what you get for any single-class warrior.

The Mage spells will allow you to blast your way through the enemies (or however you choose to incapacitate them). If you're going to play a character that attacks with melee weapons and uses spells for defense, you're better off playing a multiclass fighter/mage.

For example, a 9th level Kensai with 18/xx strength dual-wielding is going to get 3 attacks a round, have a base THACO of 12 and then get +3 from kensai, +2 specialization, +2 strength, so a THACO of 5. Let's throw in a pair of +3 weapons and all three *** in dual wield and you're looking at 2 attacks with a THACO of 2 and 1 attack with a THACO of 4. For most common enemies you're hitting most of the time, but for more powerful enemies, the AC will start to get in the -6 -8 -10 range, which means you're only hitting about half the time or worse.

[VigilPrime]

It is all beginning to make a sick sort if sense . Now that I finally understand how thac0, AC, and the various classes work. Thank you very much guys for all of your help with this stuff.

I would consider going beserker mage Dante, but really I didn't pick Kensai to minmax or to powergame or whatever, I just picked it because it seemed appealing to me. That and it frustrates me that my character can't use swords/has to constantly wear a robe. So dual classing from kensai made things a lot better.

Which makes me think I may just start a game from BG1 and dual class right away if at all possible to get the outfit but to still be a "pure" mage.

Again, thanks to everyone who posted in this thread

[Son of Imoen]

Beware though, in BG 1 a 1st level Kensai will be very weak, as he is a fighter and can't wear armour. I never played a Kensai, so I don't know what his abilities are like at level 1. But if your reason for dualing early (you can dual once you get to level 2), it's easier for your character to survive if you start as a plain Fighter (or Berserker, if you want the advantages of 1 Enrage/day).

I myself have just started a character that started as a Fighter but will become a Mage after level 3, thereby giving him some more hitpoints and an extra * to put in weapon proficiency of choice, before dualclassing..

[VigilPrime]

That makes me wonder though. If you dual class at level 3, how will that transfer over to BG2? Or do you not intend to play it. Would it stay at level 3 though?

Now that I think about it a really cool combination would be a monk/mage. Is there a mod that allows such dual classes?

[Flamedance]

VigilPrime wrote...

That makes me wonder though. If you dual class at level 3, how will that transfer over to BG2? Or do you not intend to play it. Would it stay at level 3 though?

Now that I think about it a really cool combination would be a monk/mage. Is there a mod that allows such dual classes?

As a lvl 3 fighter/lvl x mage, if you simply export the character to BG2.  And the class you dualclassed FROM, can never raise it's level. Only the class you dualed to.

Such a mod does not exist. Monks can't be dualclassed. That's hardcoded.

[VigilPrime]

I weep tears of sadness.

[Biotic_Warlock]

I was thinking myself of getting a level 2 mage dual class to a fighter or something.

I was thinking of doing this because i (randomly) want to shoot wands at eeryone XD

[The Fred]

The optimal time to dual is very much a matter of opinion, because it depends on what you're going for. There's a certain degree of "accepted wisdom" but it can be worthwhile to get your mage abilities sooner or later depending on what you want. HOWEVER, there's almost no disadvantage to being, say, Fighter 2/Mage XXX because the small amount of XP you lose will end up being a tiny fraction of the XP per level pretty soon, and you gain better weapon proficiencies (mage with bow?), the ability to use a shield, the ability to use fighter items like potions, and more health. That's not to say Fighter 2/Mage XXX is optimal, but IMO it's better than Mage XXX. That said, I don't think you can start like that in BG2.

[Son of Imoen]

If I continue with my F3>M xx to BG 2, I will import him to BG 2, so he will still be 3rd level in Fighter all the way up to TOB. Basically, a Mage with a bow and sword and a bit more hp. As long as you stick to the vanilla kits and classes, there won't be any problem exporting any kind of character to BG2. Cheesy kind of fun can be han when using vanilla BG 1 instead of Tutu. Vanilla BG 1 has a worse interface than BG 2 and Tutu (no TAB highlighting, game unpauses when going to inventory), but you can dual-class to a speciality mage, something that's impossible in the BG 2 engine. - little sidenote.

Starting a new BG2 game, you'll start as level 7 character if you're a fighter (with 25.000 xp beyond the lvl-up point for lvl 7), so you can only be a F7>Something, or even higher Fighter level. I'm planning to try out a Kensai9>Mage some day, wanting to get to those mage levels quickly, but not wanting to waste 25.000 xp, I'll climb to 250.000 xp and dual at level 9 (I got so many BG-plans in store, I'm practically drowning in them).

Modifié par Son of Imoen, 21 mars 2011 - 10:46 .

[Shadow_Leech07]

VigilPrime wrote...

Is a Thac0 bonus of +2 considered good? I mean if I just stuck with kensai all the way what kind of thac0 bonus would I see? I'm guessing the mage spells will make up for me not getting the rest of it.

Do you mean the damage bonus that kensai gets? The reason to play a kensai is to get the damage bonus, so a level forty kensai will do massive amounts of damage. I think the max amount of extra damage is +13. They also get the "kai ability: ever so often when they level up so that helps as well. Kensais are better secondary or tertiary units in a party. The best place for a kensai is to attack when the enemy is distracted by a tank.

[Dante2377]

Flamedance wrote...

VigilPrime wrote...

That makes me wonder though. If you dual class at level 3, how will that transfer over to BG2? Or do you not intend to play it. Would it stay at level 3 though?

Now that I think about it a really cool combination would be a monk/mage. Is there a mod that allows such dual classes?

As a lvl 3 fighter/lvl x mage, if you simply export the character to BG2.  And the class you dualclassed FROM, can never raise it's level. Only the class you dualed to.

Such a mod does not exist. Monks can't be dualclassed. That's hardcoded.

You could "hack it" somewhat if you wanted to - making yourself a fighter (or cleric and never using spells or turn), manually giving yourself the various monk abilities depending on level with shadowkeeper, then dualling to a mage.  Sounds like you want to dual-class FROM a monk, so there would only be a limited amount of abilities to give.  The Stunning Blow/Quivering Palm and protection abilities should be easy [just create a normal monk in a separate save, level him up using the console to give XP, then use SK to look at his Innates], the harder one would be the unarmed attack since that's most likely hard coded into the monk class, rather than something on the affects tab you could copy.

If you get creative you can simulate all the monk abilities like hand attacks by using SK or NearInfinity to modify something like the Troll01.itm (item for hand-to-hand attack for trolls, does 2d6 damage + strength) to what your monk hand-to-hand abilities are.

PS @Son of Imoen if you dual to a mage and DONT have a kit on your first class, you can set a mage kit using shadow keeper.  If you do this right when you dual, the only tweak you'll need to make is to change your # of level 1 spells that you can memorize from 1 to 2.  Once your kit is set, when you level up you'll get the correct number of spells, but whatever level of spells you have prior to setting the kit, you'll need to add 1 to properly receive the extra spell per level for specialist mages.  I've done this with dual and multis before no problem (however the game CTD when i set a priest kit and give them all the abilities, don't do that).

Modifié par Dante2377, 22 mars 2011 - 01:12 .