240 réponses à ce sujet

[Silentmode]

He's not better than Saren or Loghain to me but still pretty damn good. The best in DA2 for sure. I will say he is possibly the most intimidating antagonist BW has made yet.

[CardonT]

@Sadhia And that suddenly changes with converting to their Taliban-dogma?

[DarthSliver]

I respected the Arishok, I was sad i had to kill him when i did. My Hawke wouldve joined the Qun if given the chance too. The Qunari is a respectful race and i like how they are almost not narrow minded as Dwarfs, Elfs, and Humans seem to be.
I really hope in DA3 Bioware expands on the Qunari and give us more Qunari

[Lithuasil]

Now to get a certain recipe from anders, and plant magical nukes under every major city on Par Vollen. Who's with me?

[Werrf]

I could not wait to stick my blade through that arrogant sonofacow's gut.

It appears that this is an unpopular opinion.

Here's my problem with the Arishok - he was arrogant. The things that others apparently see as a plus, his certainty, his faith, his unshakeable conviction, I see as the problem. Let me describe his actions as I see them.

He and his warriors arrive in Kirkwall through deceit. They apparently faked a shipwreck so they could get into the city, and never show any regret for this. This is not honourable.

Once in Kirkwall, he is allowed into the crammed, refugee-filled city and given space by the Viscount. Granted, he did not ask for it, but he did accept it, and once he did so, he was a guest in the city. As a guest, certain standards of behaviour would be expected. At the very least one would be expected to follow the laws and authority of one's hosts. He failed to do that. This is not honourable.

His purpose in the city was to recover the relic, a perfectly reasonable goal. The way he went about it was totally hamfisted and ineffectual, and he refused to accept any kind of assistance from those who could actually have helped him complete his mission. This, incidentally, helps show the greatest weakness of the Qun, it's inflexibility and inability to deal with unanticipated situations.

So, in the end, because he couldn't accept the lifestyle of his hosts, he decided to start killing people to force them into a lifestyle that can only work if it is voluntary.

So yes, a complex and interesting character. But I believe he's not nearly as good a guy as some here have suggested.

[omnitremere]

Taking it a step further I think the Qunari are by far the most interesting culture Bioware has produced. I love their take on Dwarves, Krogan, and Salarians. But to me the Qunari are the deepest. And definitely the Arishok took that a step further for me. So awesome.

[RolandX9]

The thing about the Arishok is, he's *cool.* No doubt about it. Thing is, is he any better than, say, Meredith? They're both sincere, devout, personally courageous, and absolutely convinced that their way is the ONE TRUE WAY and everyone must be made to bow to the Chant/Qun sooner or later. If you doubt that Meredith feels genuine sorrow over her decision to attempt Annulment, listen to her response to objections. She's genuinely saddened, but by the Maker, she's going to do her duty. Same with the Arishok, but with less sorrow -- the Qun dictates. ;-) In all seriousness, dude's an awesome fanatic, but he's still a fanatic.

[Gammalfarmor]

You can only describe the Arishok in one word. Awsome, seriously he is. My warrior hawke is gonna give away Isabella

[KnightofPhoenix]

Werrf wrote...
At the very least one would be expected to follow the laws and authority of one's hosts. He failed to do that. This is not honourable.

Except when those same authorities have time and time again failed to prevent the fanatics amongst Kirkwall from kidnapping, torturing and murdering his people.

He was not completely reasonable. But to say that Kirkwall's authority was functionning perfectly and all was fine until the Arishok decided not to respect the laws, is innacurate. The Viscount would not need to resort to Hawke's aid (a nobody at that time and essentially a merc), if he had sufficient powers to deal with it himself.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 09:35 .

[Faridle]

The Arishok was pure awesomeness, even respectful and quite rational if one think about it. Loghain and the Arishok are probly the best villains I have ever had the honour beating except for Captain Le Chuck (Monkey island)

[Bann Duncan]

RolandX9 wrote...

The thing about the Arishok is, he's *cool.* No doubt about it. Thing is, is he any better than, say, Meredith? They're both sincere, devout, personally courageous, and absolutely convinced that their way is the ONE TRUE WAY and everyone must be made to bow to the Chant/Qun sooner or later. If you doubt that Meredith feels genuine sorrow over her decision to attempt Annulment, listen to her response to objections. She's genuinely saddened, but by the Maker, she's going to do her duty. Same with the Arishok, but with less sorrow -- the Qun dictates. ;-) In all seriousness, dude's an awesome fanatic, but he's still a fanatic.

Did you play any further than that? Meredith is not quite in control at that point. 

[Werrf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Except when those same authorities have time and time again failed to prevent the fanatics amongst Kirkwall from kidnapping, torturing and murdering his people. 

He was not completely reasonable. But to say that Kirkwall's authority was functionning perfectly and all was fine until the Arishok decided not to respect the laws, is innacurate. The Viscount would not need to resort to Hawke's aid (a nobody at that time and essentially a merc), if he had sufficient powers to deal with it himself.

I'm not trying to defend Kirkwall; Kirkwall was a mess, there's no doubt, the ruler was too weak and the special interest groups were too strong.  But that shouldn't matter - the Arishok as far as we see never even tried to cooperate with the people whose city he was squatting in.  That was his responsibility as the guest, to at least try, and there's no sign that he ever did.  And frankly, at that point, why should the authorities try to prevent the kidnap and murder of his people?  He certainly didn't do anything to stop the kidnap and murder of Kirkwallers by his own outcasts, and even gave refuge to Kirkwallers who had been kidnapping and murdering others.

[reddragon567]

 imma let you finish but Irenacus was the best antagonist in Bioware history of all time.

[Karthak Maz Urzak]

Werrf wrote...

He and his warriors arrive in Kirkwall through deceit. They apparently faked a shipwreck so they could get into the city, and never show any regret for this. This is not honourable.

As I understand it, the shipwreck wasn't faked. They were chasing Isabela, and she sailed into a storm trying to escape them. Both their ships got smashed up in the storm.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Werrf wrote...
I'm not trying to defend Kirkwall; Kirkwall was a mess, there's no doubt, the ruler was too weak and the special interest groups were too strong.  But that shouldn't matter - the Arishok as far as we see never even tried to cooperate with the people whose city he was squatting in.  That was his responsibility as the guest, to at least try, and there's no sign that he ever did.  And frankly, at that point, why should the authorities try to prevent the kidnap and murder of his people?  He certainly didn't do anything to stop the kidnap and murder of Kirkwallers by his own outcasts, and even gave refuge to Kirkwallers who had been kidnapping and murdering others.

The Tal Vashoth were not longer under his authority and he was ill equipped to fight them. He was stranded there. The Viscount on the otherhand should have kept those under him under control, as he's leading a state. Different situations. As for the elves. They kidnapped and murdered a guard who tried to rape their sister. And they tried to report this and they were ignored. That was all the Arishok needs to see to know that Kirkwall is a mess with practically no rule of law.  You're asking him to respect something that practically doesn't exist by the end of Act 2. 

As for asking for help. I agree, and my first post here was to say that Sister Petrice was not completely unreasonable in part because of this. However, the Arishok could have thought that declaring that the Tome of Koslun was stolen by a common thief would be too humiliating. Which is also not too unreasonable.

And he was cooperating. The Viscount tells us that the Arishok's delegates were reasonable and wanted peace. Had they not been murdered because the Viscount was too weak to enforce the law, they might have come to an arrangement. Was the Arishok late? Perhaps, but he did try.  And it only became too late because Sister Petrice got out of hand.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 10:00 .

[Lord_Saulot]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@CardonT - perhaps the problem is, you think you are better than an animal?

They're not humans - why should they consider you their equals? Do you consider yourself an equal to your fellow mammals?

====

I respected the Arishok as much as I grew to respect "our" Sten.

I admire self-control. They are free to become Tal Vashoth - they are not forced into anything (as he states with the two elven followers of the Qun). However - you are not afforded respect if you cannot control yourself. I admire that immensely. I would have sided with him in a second if the game had offered.

Their mages even police themselves - that's awesome. Yes, they have what a human would call a "handler" - to the humans of Thedas the mages are pets.

BUT - if you save the Seerabas - he wants to die.

I wonder - is it REALLY mind control. Or - is the slavery to base impulses the people of Thedas call freedom really just bias propaganda. I think the "Modern Ideal" (which is really what's beong spouted when people despise order and self-control) is as corrupt as any Chantries lies.

The Arishok says that his people are free to choose the Qun - or become Tal Vashoth. So - that naturally would follow the Seerabas (sp?) - yet, he has a duty. A purpose driven life. Well done Bioware - I really love the Qunari.

Nice post.  It goes to some of what I admired about the Arishok as well.

[PantheraOnca]

WidowMaker9394 wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

I would have liked the option to decapitate Petrice rather than letting the sten shoot her.

I also am surprised so many people liked Loghain. I thought he was a pretty poor villain. His reasons for abandoning Cailan just didn't work for me.

You had a lot of respect and understanding of Loghain if you read the books.

i read the book where duncan becomes a warden, i'll look in to other books, but loghain wasn't impressive in that book either.

[mysticforce42]

I would have gladly adopted the Qun if there was an option, but alas that was not to be.

At least I was able to give him a warrior's death.

[jfp2004]

Yeah, the Arishok was one of my favorite characters in DA2. Even if I didn't always agree with what he did, I respected him.

[mcsupersport]

My two biggest issues with the entire Qun quest series is.....

1) I have never really looked up to Political/religious fanatics which it seems DA2 is all about.

2) Why couldn't I stick a knife in the Sisters gut after she set me up the first time. Sure she had one measly body guard, but then I had just killed 10-20 quniari and 10-20 human bandits, so one guard wouldn't even make me blink. She WANTED me to die, and I didn't have ANY ability to make her pay, I should have had the option to let her body be found in Low Town sewers along with her guard, victim of her plan in Low Town. This would have stopped most of the entire rest of the troubles, some people just deserve to die.

[Werrf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Tal Vashoth were not longer under his authority and he was ill equipped to fight them. He was stranded there. The Viscount on the otherhand should have kept those under him under control, as he's leading a state. Different situations.

So he can arrive there with all the warriors he needs, but he's not responsible for any of them?  That is not the act of a leader.  If he can't police his renegades he shouldn't be leading, and he should damn well ask for help.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As for the elves. They kidnapped and murdered a guard who tried to rape their sister. And they tried to report this and they were ignored. That was all the Arishok needs to see to know that Kirkwall is a mess with practically no rule of law.  You're asking him to respect something that practically doesn't exist by the end of Act 2.

No, I'm asking him to have respected it the whole time he was stuck there, since his own intransigence is a big chunk of the reason the Viscount lost so much power.  I'm certainly not trying to justify the elves being ignored, but the bottom line is that granting them protection is not the Arishok's decision, or shouldn't be.  He hasn't the right.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As for asking for help. I agree, and my first post here was to say that Sister Petrice was not completely unreasonable in part because of this. However, the Arishok could have thought that declaring that the Tome of Koslun was stolen by a common thief would be too humiliating. Which is also not too unreasonable.

Perhaps - but I have difficulty valuing his pride and saving face over the entire city.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And he was cooperating. The Viscount tells us that the Arishok's delegates were reasonable and wanted peace. Had they not been murdered because the Viscount was too weak to enforce the law, they might have come to an arrangement. Was the Arishok late? Perhaps, but he did try.  And it only became too late because Sister Petrice got out of hand.

And once again, the Viscount's weakness was at least partially attributable to the Arishok's earlier stubbornness.  He was too late.

I'd like to emphasise, though, that I'm not trying to absolve the city authorities of any blame here.  But likewise, the Arishok is far from blameless, and certainly not the awesome super-leader he's being described as elsewhere.  Throughout the game, every authority figure was shown to be screwed in some way or another - the viscount was weak, the Grand Cleric was too busy plotting, Orsino was studying blood magic, and Meredith was so far around the bend she'd doubled back on herself and was coming back again from the other end.  And the Arishok was too stubborn, arrogant and totally convinced of his own rectitude and the universal applicability of his precious Qun that he got himself and all his followers wiped out by my Hawke.

[Hurbster]

His religion offended me, I was happy to kill him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Werrf wrote...
So he can arrive there with all the warriors he needs, but he's not responsible for any of them?  That is not the act of a leader.  If he can't police his renegades he shouldn't be leading, and he should damn well ask for help.

He suffered a shipwreck. For all we know, those Qunari were stranded there by the storm. He was in the city. How could he deal with them?

And in any case, we know that Saemus was accompanying a Qunari group on the wounded coast. Perhaps they were sent to deal with Tal Vashoth. 

No, I'm asking him to have respected it the whole time he was stuck there, since his own intransigence is a big chunk of the reason the Viscount lost so much power.  I'm certainly not trying to justify the elves being ignored, but the bottom line is that granting them protection is not the Arishok's decision, or shouldn't be.  He hasn't the right.

He has every right once he saw that the Viscount had no power at all to enforce the law. He failed to protect delegates. He failed to protect his own son. He failed to protect his citizens. And he failed to stop fanatics from gassing their own streets. Take all of these into context.

What did the arishok do to compromsie the power of the Viscount? The elves thing was at the very end where the Viscount already demonstrated how ineffectual he is. Killing Sister Petrice was also at the very end. 

He may not have legality on his side, but it becomes a moot point as there was practically no law and order in Kirkwall. It was breaking down.

Perhaps - but I have difficulty valuing his pride and saving face over the entire city.

It's the pride of the entire Qunari. Not just his own pride, which I don't think would be that important to him.
It's as simbolic as it is political. A symbolic humiliation translates into political munition.

I'd like to emphasise, though, that I'm not trying to absolve the city authorities of any blame here.  But likewise, the Arishok is far from blameless, and certainly not the awesome super-leader he's being described as elsewhere.

And I personally never said he was completely blameless. I said, he was not completely reasonable (though compared to the others you listed, he ranks as one of the most reasonable). 
Hwoever, I think most of the blame does not fall on him. 

He may not  be a super awesome brilliant leader. But I found him to be an awesome character.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 11:16 .